Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

squinn2912 wrote: »

Haha those last two posts are excellent!! A lot of you guys seem to give loads of credit to the difficult long run. I try to get all the quality during the week. Today I’ve done 11 miles with 7 averaging 6:22. Thursday I’ll be doing 8-10 x 800s. No way I’m putting pace into my long run after all of that. It’s hateful enough without it!

SQ, I think it's one or the other. I know I could not do more than two Quality sessions a week. That's my max. So you either do a midweek session and 'stuff' in the long run or you keep the LSR easy pace and do 2 sessions somewhere else. Yours is probably tougher as you could say you're doing 3 sessions a week as a lot of people say the long run is a toughie even at E pace.

Haha those last two posts are excellent!! A lot of you guys seem to give loads of credit to the difficult long run. I try to get all the quality during the week. Today I’ve done 11 miles with 7 averaging 6:22. Thursday I’ll be doing 8-10 x 800s. No way I’m putting pace into my long run after all of that. It’s hateful enough without it!

I'm biased cos I've only managed to get under 3 hours once so obviously I set great store by the workouts in that block. I did a 3x9k@MP with about 3 minutes between (very easy jog) and it was kinda criticised on the sub 3 thread*. I think I may have done the 3x8k as well but with 2 mins jog/rest. It was then that Krusty or someone else suggested the 3x8k with steady 800 between. Who knows which was best or, more likely, if the 3 together gave benefits on the day.

* A couple of people were saying I was doing glory training runs and would be flogged on the day....... (Not true. I'm no more a Strava hero than the rest of us

)

overpronator

I have done that 5,4,3,2,1 session off 800m a couple of times in Marathon prep and hit targets both times (just under 3hrs). Its a great session and it always felt very hard for the last couple of reps. To my mind, by time youve built up to the session you will be carrying enough accumulated fatigue that it should be challenging. I personally wouldn't feel discouraged by it being difficult but it would be important to be able to finish it on target. I wouldn't class it as an indicator workout either, just one more as part of the 12-18 week mix. I'd also suggest that its splitting hairs in alot of ways comparing it to 3x5M, think the benefits of each are gonna be mostly similar.

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

It should feel tough, especially if doing solo, but easy to get your head around mentally. After the 5M, you've completed 1/3 of the session.
You'll be in the middle of heavy training, you won't have taper and you won't have the race day buzz and adrenaline.
The recoveries are active, you keep rolling at easy pace, about 60 to 90 seconds slower than PMP.

HR is a strange one. I was in zone 5 on Friday night at easy pace over 10k

Limpy wrote: »

I've done 12 straight at marathon pace. Had about 25-30 beats to spare off my max of 180. I reckon I could do the 5,4,3,2, 1 I just don't know if I could manage it over 26.2.

That's why I was wondering about effort, how hard did it feel for you and how did you perform in the marathon that followed?

It should feel tough, especially if doing solo, but easy to get your head around mentally. After the 5M, you've completed 1/3 of the session.
You'll be in the middle of heavy training, you won't have taper and you won't have the race day buzz and adrenaline.
The recoveries are active, you keep rolling at easy pace, about 60 to 90 seconds slower than PMP.

Limpy

I've done 12 straight at marathon pace. Had about 25-30 beats to spare off my max of 180. I reckon I could do the 5,4,3,2, 1 I just don't know if I could manage it over 26.2.

That's why I was wondering about effort, how hard did it feel for you and how did you perform in the marathon that followed?

Flynnboslice

Limpy wrote: »

The recovery in the 5,4,3,2,1 is that active or rest?.

Regarding Heart rate/Effort for the session, would going out of threshold zone and into anaerobic mean maybe the pace is to hot? I would imagine going into zone 5 would mean it wouldn't be sustainable when the big day comes..thoughts?

Should be run off effort. If you are fresh and are working too hard with no underlying issues (illness, tiredness, stress, wind, hydration,) I would say it is time to go back to the drawing board.

If effort is right but paces are slow in middle of a heavy week I wouldn't worry too much

One session won't tell you much without the overall plan as context

Limpy wrote: »

The recovery in the 5,4,3,2,1 is that active or rest?.

Regarding Heart rate/Effort for the session, would going out of threshold zone and into anaerobic mean maybe the pace is to hot? I would imagine going into zone 5 would mean it wouldn't be sustainable when the big day comes..thoughts?

Limpy, I've never really worked with HR and Zones but, yes, going into Zone 5 suggests it's a tough pace to hold. That said, I often find marathon pace tough to hold. Sometimes it seems as bad as HM pace although of course it's not in reality.

Limpy

The recovery in the 5,4,3,2,1 is that active or rest?.

Regarding Heart rate/Effort for the session, would going out of threshold zone and into anaerobic mean maybe the pace is to hot? I would imagine going into zone 5 would mean it wouldn't be sustainable when the big day comes..thoughts?

Jmcmen

AuldManKing wrote: »

Cheers Jmcmen - Any insights into your latest training endeavors? PS was telling me that they are intense.

Tis going ok lad, alot more sessions than I have ever done before but alot less long longs runs. Shorter long runs at greater pace which is nice. Enjoying the change, hopefully will get rewards out of it but there is alot coming up in the next couple of weeks to get in the way of training

AuldManKing

Jmcmen wrote: »

Holy Moly.....Did I make 16 different pairs of shoes there!!! Are you Imelda Marcos Beepbeep? Some detail in that, fair play.

Great thread, good to see a bit of action on it again.

AMK you are fairly flying it at the moment. Will catch you soon for a gallop in the park

Cheers Jmcmen - Any insights into your latest training endeavors? PS was telling me that they are intense.

Jmcmen

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

The was at the end of 4 big weeks for 'me', accumulated fatigue.
The long runs were alternated between easy/steady and ones with quality in there.

Holy Moly.....Did I make 16 different pairs of shoes there!!! Are you Imelda Marcos Beepbeep? Some detail in that, fair play.

Great thread, good to see a bit of action on it again.

AMK you are fairly flying it at the moment. Will catch you soon for a gallop in the park

squinn2912 wrote: »

So you ended up with 2:55? Or is my maths gone nuts? Wuold you consider that you may race better in Autumn than Spring? I'm convinced of it. On my good day I did 89 then 86 give or take but I was deliberately conservative on the way out then dropped the hammer for the last 10 miles. But we're different levels of ability and training, I feel. You should be finishing well ahead of me. What's up next for you?

2:55 - yep.
I think my candle burns a little brightly for marathon running.
I've gone back to my roots, indoor track for the spring and outdoor track / shorter road races for the summer.

So you ended up with 2:55? Or is my maths gone nuts? Wuold you consider that you may race better in Autumn than Spring? I'm convinced of it. On my good day I did 89 then 86 give or take but I was deliberately conservative on the way out then dropped the hammer for the last 10 miles. But we're different levels of ability and training, I feel. You should be finishing well ahead of me. What's up next for you?

squinn2912 wrote: »

That's eye watering stuff. I don't think I could do it. The two sessions per day would break my heart. I'm 15/20 miles behind that even at peak I'm only on 70 or so miles. What time were you going for in that programme?

Low 2:50's, I was in shape to hit it, 86 at halfway, but had stomach issues / reflux from 14 miles, clung on for an 89 in the 2nd half.

That's eye watering stuff. I don't think I could do it. The two sessions per day would break my heart. I'm 15/20 miles behind that even at peak I'm only on 70 or so miles. What time were you going for in that programme?

squinn2912 wrote: »

So how would your week look in the build up to a long run like that? I do almost all of the long runs easy with the exception of 3-4 where the last few miles will have MP

The was at the end of 4 big weeks for 'me', accumulated fatigue.
The long runs were alternated between easy/steady and ones with quality in there.

So how would your week look in the build up to a long run like that? I do almost all of the long runs easy with the exception of 3-4 where the last few miles will have MP

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

The cut-down MP session 4-5 weeks out is a good tester.
5 miles @ MP; 5 mins recovery
4 miles @ MP; 4 mins recovery
3 miles @ MP; 3 mins recovery
2 miles @ MP; 2 mins recovery
1 miles @ MP;
With 2-3 miles w/u; c/d

Dug that one out for old time's sake #funtimes
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1073418983

It was part of a heavy block of training
Feb 13th 2h50 @ 6:51 pace
Feb 16th 10M with 6 @ tempo 6:14
Feb 18th mid-week MSR @ 7:33
Feb 20th 20 with 12 @ 6:29
Feb 23 mid-week MSR @ 7:28
Feb 25 3k race in 9:58
Feb 28 Long 22 @ 7:25
March 3rd 4 x 1200
Mar 5th session above
March 8th 2 x 3M (6:02/5:52)
March 17 HM in 79

They were the make or break you weeks in the plan

AuldManKing wrote: »

My Plan has a 15m@MP coming up - I was going to do Bohermeen and do 13MP there - but a work trip put pay to that.

I was considering doing 3x(4MP+1Steady) but am now thinking of the 5/4/3/2/1 - I done similar with the Steve Way plan previously (based on time, not miles) and it worked very well.

There's something weird about how our minds and bodies work. If you said to me, do a 15 miles MP run, I'd think, WOW!! 15 miles at MP in one go........

But if you say, do a Half at MP I'm thinking why not race it....... at about 15 seconds a km faster!!!

Shows you the power of race environment. I couldn't do a Half on my own at half pace. It also shows you that I'm a silly bugger I suppose.

AuldManKing

Duanington wrote: »

How afar out will that be from race day A?

7 weeks out and another one at 3 weeks out.
I wont do a straight 15MP on either of them.

Duanington

AuldManKing wrote: »

My Plan has a 15m@MP coming up - I was going to do Bohermeen and do 13MP there - but a work trip put pay to that.

I was considering doing 3x(4MP+1Steady) but am now thinking of the 5/4/3/2/1 - I done similar with the Steve Way plan previously (based on time, not miles) and it worked very well.

How afar out will that be from race day A?

AuldManKing wrote: »

My Plan has a 15m@MP coming up - I was going to do Bohermeen and do 13MP there - but a work trip put pay to that.

I was considering doing 3x(4MP+1Steady) but am now thinking of the 5/4/3/2/1 - I done similar with the Steve Way plan previously (based on time, not miles) and it worked very well.

Yeah, I saw you mention that. I think the 3x5 w 800 steady is a very good workout. Not saying the others aren't now.

AuldManKing

Itziger wrote: »

It ain't easy, no. But I wonder which is better, that or the 3x5miles@MP with the 800 steady in between. That comes out as 16 miles @ MP really cos the two 800s if you really do 'em steady, you're not losing much time to MP.

I've not done the 5,4,3,2,1 with the 800s......... That would be long alright.

I do think the 3x5 is a great session if you can handle it. I used the 800s between to get some water in and maybe even a gel.

(There is of course the option to just do 16 miles @ MP which I know one sub 2.30 runner here has done on occasion. That way you don't have to worry about nothing but keep going.......)

My Plan has a 15m@MP coming up - I was going to do Bohermeen and do 13MP there - but a work trip put pay to that.

I was considering doing 3x(4MP+1Steady) but am now thinking of the 5/4/3/2/1 - I done similar with the Steve Way plan previously (based on time, not miles) and it worked very well.

squinn2912 wrote: »

Christ you’d want a handy week leading up to that session it’s rough!!

It ain't easy, no. But I wonder which is better, that or the 3x5miles@MP with the 800 steady in between. That comes out as 16 miles @ MP really cos the two 800s if you really do 'em steady, you're not losing much time to MP.

I've not done the 5,4,3,2,1 with the 800s......... That would be long alright.

I do think the 3x5 is a great session if you can handle it. I used the 800s between to get some water in and maybe even a gel.

(There is of course the option to just do 16 miles @ MP which I know one sub 2.30 runner here has done on occasion. That way you don't have to worry about nothing but keep going.......)

Christ you’d want a handy week leading up to that session it’s rough!!

Duanington

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

The cut-down MP session 4-5 weeks out is a good tester.
5 miles @ MP; 5 mins recovery
4 miles @ MP; 4 mins recovery
3 miles @ MP; 3 mins recovery
2 miles @ MP; 2 mins recovery
1 miles @ MP;
With 2-3 miles w/u; c/d

You can also run that one off 800m recovery throughout, toughy but a goody