Sub 2.50 - and beyond!

squinn2912

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

It should feel tough, especially if doing solo, but easy to get your head around mentally. After the 5M, you've completed 1/3 of the session.
You'll be in the middle of heavy training, you won't have taper and you won't have the race day buzz and adrenaline.
The recoveries are active, you keep rolling at easy pace, about 60 to 90 seconds slower than PMP.

HR is a strange one. I was in zone 5 on Friday night at easy pace over 10k

overpronator

I have done that 5,4,3,2,1 session off 800m a couple of times in Marathon prep and hit targets both times (just under 3hrs). Its a great session and it always felt very hard for the last couple of reps. To my mind, by time youve built up to the session you will be carrying enough accumulated fatigue that it should be challenging. I personally wouldn't feel discouraged by it being difficult but it would be important to be able to finish it on target. I wouldn't class it as an indicator workout either, just one more as part of the 12-18 week mix. I'd also suggest that its splitting hairs in alot of ways comparing it to 3x5M, think the benefits of each are gonna be mostly similar.

Itziger

I'm biased cos I've only managed to get under 3 hours once so obviously I set great store by the workouts in that block. I did a 3x9k@MP with about 3 minutes between (very easy jog) and it was kinda criticised on the sub 3 thread*. I think I may have done the 3x8k as well but with 2 mins jog/rest. It was then that Krusty or someone else suggested the 3x8k with steady 800 between. Who knows which was best or, more likely, if the 3 together gave benefits on the day.

* A couple of people were saying I was doing glory training runs and would be flogged on the day....... (Not true. I'm no more a Strava hero than the rest of us )

squinn2912

Haha those last two posts are excellent!! A lot of you guys seem to give loads of credit to the difficult long run. I try to get all the quality during the week. Today I’ve done 11 miles with 7 averaging 6:22. Thursday I’ll be doing 8-10 x 800s. No way I’m putting pace into my long run after all of that. It’s hateful enough without it!

Itziger

squinn2912 wrote: »

Haha those last two posts are excellent!! A lot of you guys seem to give loads of credit to the difficult long run. I try to get all the quality during the week. Today I’ve done 11 miles with 7 averaging 6:22. Thursday I’ll be doing 8-10 x 800s. No way I’m putting pace into my long run after all of that. It’s hateful enough without it!

SQ, I think it's one or the other. I know I could not do more than two Quality sessions a week. That's my max. So you either do a midweek session and 'stuff' in the long run or you keep the LSR easy pace and do 2 sessions somewhere else. Yours is probably tougher as you could say you're doing 3 sessions a week as a lot of people say the long run is a toughie even at E pace.

squinn2912

Itziger wrote: »

SQ, I think it's one or the other. I know I could not do more than two Quality sessions a week. That's my max. So you either do a midweek session and 'stuff' in the long run or you keep the LSR easy pace and do 2 sessions somewhere else. Yours is probably tougher as you could say you're doing 3 sessions a week as a lot of people say the long run is a toughie even at E pace.

Sorry I thought I’d replied to this. Last programme I was finishing 20/22 milers with 3/5 miles at marathon pace or a bit faster. Was tough after a heavy week. That’s true of the lsr, mean! I know people who do little running during the week, run hard and fast on Saturday and get their times. Off maybe a 45 mile week. Maybe I’m doing it wrong!

squinn2912

Right guys I’ve a question. Long run sat was 15 miles. 6:22 average tempo run on Tuesday. 60 mins easy Monday and Wednesday. I did 1k reps this morning with 2 mile WU/CD. What would you think I should be doing the reps at and what recovery? I’ll own up to what I did do after I hear from you guys
Edit: 7 reps

AuldManKing

squinn2912 wrote: »

Right guys I’ve a question. Long run sat was 15 miles. 6:22 average tempo run on Tuesday. 60 mins easy Monday and Wednesday. I did 1k reps this morning with 2 mile WU/CD. What would you think I should be doing the reps at and what recovery? I’ll own up to what I did do after I hear from you guys
Edit: 7 reps

Depends on the nature of the session.

You can do 7x1km at tempo pace off 45-60 secs recovery.

or

You can do 7x1km at Harder pace (5k-10k) with 2-3 mins recovery

Both effective - but both work different aspects.

If you've already done a tempo - then the faster workout would be a good compliment. I reckon 5.50 pace with 2.30 min recovery.

squinn2912

AuldManKing wrote: »

Depends on the nature of the session.

You can do 7x1km at tempo pace off 45-60 secs recovery.

or

You can do 7x1km at Harder pace (5k-10k) with 2-3 mins recovery

Both effective - but both work different aspects.

If you've already done a tempo - then the faster workout would be a good compliment. I reckon 5.50 pace with 2.30 min recovery.

You’re no cod! I did the latter. Round 3:38 with 2:20 or so recovery. 10 miles in all.

Flynnboslice

I notice 7 reps seems to be a popular number of reps recently

Is there any particular reason for this? Physiological reasons? Just seems like a strange number to be arbitrary

Itziger

Flynnboslice wrote: »

I notice 7 reps seems to be a popular number of reps recently

Is there any particular reason for this? Physiological reasons? Just seems like a strange number to be arbitrary

Biblical, m8, innit.

squinn2912

Flynnboslice wrote: »

I notice 7 reps seems to be a popular number of reps recently

Is there any particular reason for this? Physiological reasons? Just seems like a strange number to be arbitrary

Well I did 8x800 last session so 6400m working. 7x1k clears that so I suppose that was my thinking

Limpy

I work long hours so sometimes only getting 10k a day max for 5 days. I've to make up then when I'm off buy getting in 3 good long runs. That happens for 2 weeks out of 5. Sometimes going in to work nights after a long run 2. But I am feeling in good shape.

The last 10k I did was 1,1,1,1,2,1k off 600 float. so ended up with 7 at 10k pace which was a good session.

squinn2912

I know I’m torturing everyone on this thread but did the 16 miles this morning with 4 at mp. Not a bad week considering that’s 3 sessions. Found found the 4 comfortable enough

Limpy

squinn2912 wrote: »

I know I’m torturing everyone on this thread but did the 16 miles this morning with 4 at mp. Not a bad week considering that’s 3 sessions. Found found the 4 comfortable enough

That's a good sign. I always break up my long runs with faster stuff regardless of the time I'm going for. I figure of you can do 2x4 @10 secs faster then marathon pace it'll stand to u. I scraped under the 2:50 in London last year and those sessions helped me make the most of the long runs I did.

squinn2912

Limpy wrote: »

That's a good sign. I always break up my long runs with faster stuff regardless of the time I'm going for. I figure of you can do 2x4 @10 secs faster then marathon pace it'll stand to u. I scraped under the 2:50 in London last year and those sessions helped me make the most of the long runs I did.

Brilliant running! What would your week have looked like in preparation for London?

Limpy

squinn2912 wrote: »

Brilliant running! What would your week have looked like in preparation for London?

My last long run was 21 mile with 2x10k at sub 40 10k pace. The following week it was 16 with 2x5k at same pace. Stood me well. Ave pace was about 6:40. That was 4 and 3 weeks out. Leading up to marathon I had plenty done between 10k to 10 mile at marathon pace. Once a week.

squinn2912

Limpy wrote: »

My last long run was 21 mile with 2x10k at sub 40 10k pace. The following week it was 16 with 2x5k at same pace. Stood me well. Ave pace was about 6:40. That was 4 and 3 weeks out. Leading up to marathon I had plenty done between 10k to 10 mile at marathon pace. Once a week.

Big sessions in the long run but what were you doing during the week?

Limpy

squinn2912 wrote: »

Big sessions in the long run but what were you doing during the week?

I more or less done the long stuff from p&d55 18 week plan. Speedwork was what ever session was going on usually ran hard. 13x 30sec. 3x10mins. 10x800 ect

OOnegative

Limpy wrote: »

I more or less done the long stuff from p&d55 18 week plan. Speedwork was what ever session was going on usually ran hard. 13x 30sec. 3x10mins. 10x800 ect

No easy stuff?

Limpy

OOnegative wrote: »

No easy stuff?

Sorry. Yeah a steady 10 mile , speedwork session, long runs were the main 3. If I didn't do the speedwork I did 4 mile at 5:45-5:50 pace depending on my shift. Basically if I'm working I've 50 mins on my break so I'd do a speed session. The easy stuff was all done around 7:10 to 7:20 pace. Out of the 55 miles 30 were easy. 10 were easy hills but hr would go up high on the climbs. The other 15 was the quality stuff speedwork/steady ect.

squinn2912

Well lads. I did the carlingford half this morning. 1:21:58. New PB so happy enough with that. Had to push hard. Averaged out 6:14s

healy1835

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well lads. I did the carlingford half this morning. 1:21:58. New PB so happy enough with that. Had to push hard. Averaged out 6:14s

Well done mate. In good nick this early on for Belfast.....

squinn2912

healy1835 wrote: »

Well done mate. In good nick this early on for Belfast.....

Thanks buddy. Something similar to my Rock n Roll performance but shorter course and fewer hills. A good day

Limpy

Finding it hard to get long runs in due to work. Is a double 5m in the am and 11pm in the pm the same as a 16 miler at same pace?

Krusty_Clown

Limpy wrote: »

Finding it hard to get long runs in due to work. Is a double 5m in the am and 11pm in the pm the same as a 16 miler at same pace?

A few typos in your post I reckon, but reading between the lines, 2 x 5 is not the same as a single 10 mile run. For a suitably trained marathon runner, 2 x 5 mile runs would fall closer to the category of being recovery runs (with some added physiological benefits from doing two of them), but a 10 mile run is going to be an hour+, so will have some level of aerobic and adaptation benefit. 2 x 5 miles is definitely better than calling quits and just doing a single 5 mile run, but it's not a substitution.

We all lead busy lives and you can only do what you can reasonably do. We're not in this game to run a single PB, we're in it for the long run, improving year on year. So don't sweat it too much. Do your best to fit in what you can fit in. Next year, just do 5% more.

Limpy

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

A few typos in your post I reckon, but reading between the lines, 2 x 5 is not the same as a single 10 mile run. For a suitably trained marathon runner, 2 x 5 mile runs would fall closer to the category of being recovery runs (with some added physiological benefits from doing two of them), but a 10 mile run is going to be an hour+, so will have some level of aerobic and adaptation benefit. 2 x 5 miles is definitely better than calling quits and just doing a single 5 mile run, but it's not a substitution.

We all lead busy lives and you can only do what you can reasonably do. We're not in this game to run a single PB, we're in it for the long run, improving year on year. So don't sweat it too much. Do your best to fit in what you can fit in. Next year, just do 5% more.

Sorry 5am and 11 miles pm. I not following a plan but looking at long runs from the p&d 18/70 thers a few midweek 17 and 18 m runs. So basically I am working 2 weekends on the trot with the Key 2 weeks coming up milage wise. I've 3 days to fit in 2 long runs. Was thinking easy double tue 16 total, then along run of 20 Thursday.

squinn2912

Feeling the need to let everyone know I did 42 miles in 3 days after being sick all week. 22 today just takes me to 50 for the week. What I’ve been doing most weeks is 2 sessions plus 3/4 miles of mp during the long run. Last programme was maybe 10 miles more per week but much less speed. Any pearls on target time after 2:55 last time out (pb)

healy1835

Things might get a bit busier in these parts over the next few months hopefully. There's a few around these parts going again in the Autumn by my reckoning...Anybody like to post a list of their LR's and their progression over a training block? I know the LR can't just be looked at in isolation, but I wouldn't mind seeing what others have done in the past. I'm planning on doing more with my LR's for DCM this summer.

KSU

healy1835 wrote: »

Things might get a bit busier in these parts over the next few months hopefully. There's a few around these parts going again in the Autumn by my reckoning...Anybody like to post a list of their LR's and their progression over a training block? I know the LR can't just be looked at in isolation, but I wouldn't mind seeing what others have done in the past. I'm planning on doing more with my LR's for DCM this summer.

Happy to share my own plan.

Would probably be a bit higher mileage than most as the marathon specific would be relative high volume as well as the long run

Currently in general phase of hills, fartleks traditional tempos and long run. 2 weeks of 17 milers then a down week and then 4 19-20 milers. Not worried about progressing the long runs just simply building endurance with time on feet so these are very handy

After this I get into the marathon specific work which will consist of these sessions (one of each weekly)

Marathon Specific
6x2km MP/1km steady recovery
6x3km MP/1km steady recovery
5x4km MP/1km steady recovery
4x5km MP/1km steady recovery
3x6km MP/1km steady recovery
13 mile MP
3x7 km MP/1km steady recovery
2x6 mile 1 mile easy recovery

Each of these sessions will have around 13 miles of work with the warm up and cooldown bringing it to roughly 16/17 miles. Overall volume stays the same but the intensity increases as the weeks go on

Long runs
6 miles steady/3 miles easy/6 miles steady/3 miles easy/ 2 miles MP
7 miles steady/2 miles easy/7 miles steady/2 miles easy/ 2 miles MP
8 miles steady/2 miles easy/8 miles steady/2 miles easy/ 2 miles MP
9 miles steady/1 miles easy/9 miles steady/1 miles easy/ 2 miles MP
20 miles steady
22 miles steady

Steady for me comes in around MP+30 sec

With these the injury risk should be fairly low from the volume due to the fact that time on feet actually comes down a little as the intensity goes up and its building from the slow easy long runs that preceed it


This is just a rough draft but the aim is to spend alot of time on heavy legs running quite marathon specific work thought it will be supplemented with a small bit of 10k and fartlek work here and there