Mass Effect 3

funky penguin

Nody wrote: »

Don't like day 1 DLCs? Wait for the GOTY edition. You don't HAVE to play a game on release day and it is all the people buying it on day 1 that drives the day 1 DLC attitude as well (have to recover maximum profit in first month).

But......what if it doesn't win GOTY?

funky penguin

chrislad wrote: »

Mass Effect 2 just arrived so I can reply it. Bad news is that the Cerberus network code has expired, which is a bit of a joke. No reason why those codes should expire, especially if the content is still on the marketplace.

This happened to me too, I was livid. No mention of this on the amazon website where I bought it.

I sent an email to bioware, but (surprise surprise), no answer.

hightower1

Nody wrote: »

Don't like day 1 DLCs? Wait for the GOTY edition. You don't HAVE to play a game on release day and it is all the people buying it on day 1 that drives the day 1 DLC attitude as well (have to recover maximum profit in first month).

No we dont HAVE to play it release day, we would like to play it release day and the developers would like us to also. The problem is we would like to play an unabridged version , one that refelcts the top effort of the developers where as the developers clearly want us to play day 1 but also want to charge 75eur for this unabridged version.

"recover maximum profit" - Lets call it by its real name shall we.... cash gouge.

gizmo

Yea, when I finished my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2 after around 40 hours of play the first thing I did was curse those money gouging Bioware *****. :pac:

hightower1 wrote: »

I can understand DLC released a few months after release as a means of revenue generation and adding to an experience but day 1 DLC basically says we had enough staff and resources to complete this and have it in the game as part of an overall richer experience but we decided to cut it out and sell it separately in order to grab more cash. You cant justify day one DLC as content that woudnt have made a release deadline.... it is quite plainly a means to remove non essential content from a game in order to cut down the experience to make more money.

It's perfectly easy to justify it if you have any idea of how a game goes through the planning, budgeting and development process. What would have happened here is that a design for the game would have been drawn up which would have included content made specifically for DLC. The development time would then have been scheduled and budgeted for and this would have included said content for DLC. If that time and money wasn't allowed for the DLC then it simply would not have been created. Are you suggesting that this content should have been included in the game in the first place? Is 20-40 hours of gameplay and content not enough?

As for the rest of your post, it's pretty much dealt with by the above. Ignorance simply isn't an excuse to spew that kind of bile at companies. They're by no means perfect (far from it in fact) but if you're going to criticise them for something then try and do it for something they've actually done wrong.

In the context of Mass Effect 3, I was incredibly disappointed to find that the extra character and missions weren't pre-order bonuses anymore. As Overheal said in another thread it's this kind of gesture which rewards fans who actually go out and buy the game new and as such, certainly shouldn't be withheld for inclusion in a frankly overpriced CE bundle.

Nody

hightower1 wrote: »

No we dont HAVE to play it release day, we would like to play it release day and the developers would like us to also. The problem is we would like to play an unabridged version , one that refelcts the top effort of the developers where as the developers clearly want us to play day 1 but also want to charge 75eur for this unabridged version.

"recover maximum profit" - Lets call it by its real name shall we.... cash gouge.

You get to pick one or the other; either you're first and pay for it or you wait and pick it up with DLCs for a quarter of the price a few months later. Your choice but you'll never get both as it simply don't make sense for a developer to not cash gouge as you put it because people keep on paying for it to be first (same as with any other technology; how much were Plasma TVs when released compared to today? 40" LCDs? LED TV? 3D TV?).

Kiith

Isn't this day 1 dlc just a reward for the buying the collectors edition? Doesn't seem to bad to me. It's €65 for the digital deluxe on Gamestop, which is reasonable enough for what you get. I'll probably order it myself on Friday.

gizmo

Kiith wrote: »

Isn't this day 1 dlc just a reward for the buying the collectors edition? Doesn't seem to bad to me. It's €65 for the digital deluxe on Gamestop, which is reasonable enough for what you get.

The issue is that similar content was available via the Cerberus Network in Mass Effect 2 which was free for those who pre-ordered it / bought it new. Now it's only included in the higher priced collectors edition.

Kiith

gizmo wrote: »

The issue is that similar content was available via the Cerberus Network in Mass Effect 2 which was free for those who pre-ordered it / bought it new. Now it's only included in the higher priced collectors edition.

Ah, i see. Yeah, that's a bit ****. I'd forgotten that Cerberus was a pre-order bonus in ME2.

hightower1

gizmo wrote: »

Yea, when I finished my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2 after around 40 hours of play the first thing I did was curse those money gouging Bioware *****. :pac:


It's perfectly easy to justify it if you have any idea of how a game goes through the planning, budgeting and development process. What would have happened here is that a design for the game would have been drawn up which would have included content made specifically for DLC. The development time would then have been scheduled and budgeted for and this would have included said content for DLC. If that time and money wasn't allowed for the DLC then it simply would not have been created. Are you suggesting that this content should have been included in the game in the first place? Is 20-40 hours of gameplay and content not enough?

As for the rest of your post, it's pretty much dealt with by the above. Ignorance simply isn't an excuse to spew that kind of bile at companies. They're by no means perfect (far from it in fact) but if you're going to criticise them for something then try and do it for something they've actually done wrong.

In the context of Mass Effect 3, I was incredibly disappointed to find that the extra character and missions weren't pre-order bonuses anymore. As Overheal said in another thread it's this kind of gesture which rewards fans who actually go out and buy the game new and as such, certainly shouldn't be withheld for inclusion in a frankly overpriced CE bundle.

What Im saying is that the developer had the option to use 100% of its recources to making the best experience possible for your 60eur but instead they dedicated a portion of their recources away from the game and into an excersize for cash grabbing....day 1 DLC.

Yes 20-40 hours is reasonible imo but what gets me is that the game COULD have been 40 -50 hours and far richer in terms of content had the developer decided to dedicate all their attention to the overall game rather than devoting some of that to day 1 dlc cash cows. Had this DLC been released a month after release I would understand it as a way to increase the replayability of the title but day 1 DLC is attention deprived from the game dev process in order to get more money.

It feels like watching the dark knight in the cinema and finding they removed scenes not essential to the overall story and those scenes focused on charecter development in order to get you to buy a more expensive ticket to see that content - Non essential content but this was not added in order to increase the price.


I'd alomost be happier they stopped chopping bits off games and tryng to hock them as day 1 DLC in order to bump the price... just make the best game possible with 100% of the developers resourses and charge an increased price if they feel its justified.

hooradiation

hightower1 wrote: »

What Im saying is that the developer had the option to use 100% of its recources to making the best experience possible for your 60eur but instead they dedicated a portion of their recources away from the game and into an excersize for cash grabbing....day 1 DLC.

Yes 20-40 hours is reasonible imo but what gets me is that the game COULD have been 40 -50 hours and far richer in terms of content had the developer decided to dedicate all their attention to the overall game rather than devoting some of that to day 1 dlc cash cows. Had this DLC been released a month after release I would understand it as a way to increase the replayability of the title but day 1 DLC is attention deprived from the game dev process in order to get more money.

It feels like watching the dark knight in the cinema and finding they removed scenes not essential to the overall story and those scenes focused on charecter development in order to get you to buy a more expensive ticket to see that content - Non essential content but this was not added in order to increase the price.


I'd alomost be happier they stopped chopping bits off games and tryng to hock them as day 1 DLC in order to bump the price... just make the best game possible with 100% of the developers resourses and charge an increased price if they feel its justified.

I am almost surprised at the level of popularity that the misconception that if day one DLC were to ever suddenly wink out of existence that said content would migrate back into the main game enjoys.

Almost.

Nody

hightower1 wrote: »

What Im saying is that the developer had the option to use 100% of its recources to making the best experience possible for your 60eur but instead they dedicated a portion of their recources away from the game and into an excersize for cash grabbing....day 1 DLC.

Yes 20-40 hours is reasonible imo but what gets me is that the game COULD have been 40 -50 hours and far richer in terms of content had the developer decided to dedicate all their attention to the overall game rather than devoting some of that to day 1 dlc cash cows. Had this DLC been released a month after release I would understand it as a way to increase the replayability of the title but day 1 DLC is attention deprived from the game dev process in order to get more money.

It feels like watching the dark knight in the cinema and finding they removed scenes not essential to the overall story and those scenes focused on charecter development in order to get you to buy a more expensive ticket to see that content - Non essential content but this was not added in order to increase the price.

I'd alomost be happier they stopped chopping bits off games and tryng to hock them as day 1 DLC in order to bump the price... just make the best game possible with 100% of the developers resourses and charge an increased price if they feel its justified.

That's known as the Director's cut/edition; it's usually released a year after the original release to force people to buy a second copy of the same movie using stuff already filmed at the time. One of the masters of this is of course the Star Wars series which has been re-released over and over again.

Varik

gizmo wrote: »

The issue is that similar content was available via the Cerberus Network in Mass Effect 2 which was free for those who pre-ordered it / bought it new. Now it's only included in the higher priced collectors edition.

Was there some other version of the Cerberus network for pre-orders as it was with the new copies of games not just pre-orders.

Also where's the cheapest place to get the CE online.

gizmo

hightower1 wrote: »

What Im saying is that the developer had the option to use 100% of its recources to making the best experience possible for your 60eur but instead they dedicated a portion of their recources away from the game and into an excersize for cash grabbing....day 1 DLC.

And this is where the misunderstanding manifests itself. The developer is using 100% of their resources on the project, what is being spent on DLC is additional time, money and general resources, the mythical 110% you could say. If this DLC didn't exist then none of this would be required because the content would not exist.

hightower1 wrote: »

Yes 20-40 hours is reasonible imo but what gets me is that the game COULD have been 40 -50 hours and far richer in terms of content had the developer decided to dedicate all their attention to the overall game rather than devoting some of that to day 1 dlc cash cows. Had this DLC been released a month after release I would understand it as a way to increase the replayability of the title but day 1 DLC is attention deprived from the game dev process in order to get more money.

None of the DLC available for ME2 would have extended the game by that much and as both I and hooradiation have said above, it is a gross misconception to say that said content would have made it into the final game regardless.

hightower1 wrote: »

It feels like watching the dark knight in the cinema and finding they removed scenes not essential to the overall story and those scenes focused on charecter development in order to get you to buy a more expensive ticket to see that content - Non essential content but this was not added in order to increase the price.

This isn't the best analogy. A correct one would be Christopher Nolan going to the studio and asking for $250m to make The Dark Knight Rises. The studio agrees and also says that they'll give him $260m if he shoots some additional scenes specifically for the limited edition release of the Bluray. The studio is happy to give him this extra $10m because they know they'll make additional revenue from this second edition. Nolan agrees to this and uses the $10m to shoot the scenes he otherwise would not have.

That clearer?

Varik wrote: »

Was there some other version of the Cerberus network for pre-orders as it was with the new copies of games not just pre-orders.
Also where's the cheapest place to get the CE online.

Nope, the same version. I said "pre-ordered it / bought it new" to link back to the earlier point about content such as that being a nice bonus to people who pre-order.

As for the CE, pretty sure it's sold out in most places. It's still available for the PS3 from Game and afaik all of the content is included in the Digital editions.

Zeouterlimits

gizmo wrote: »

And this is where the misunderstanding manifests itself. The developer is using 100% of their resources on the project, what is being spent on DLC is additional time, money and general resources, the mythical 110% you could say. If this DLC didn't exist then none of this would be required because the content would not exist.

Could be using that time to give the pc version a simple thing like gamepad support. Might you know, encourage pc players to be happier about their version of the game and therefore buy the dlc.

hooradiation

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Could be using that time to give the pc version a simple thing like gamepad support. Might you know, encourage pc players to be happier about their version of the game and therefore buy the dlc.

Are people actually labouring under the idea that a company the size of bioware, with multiple full sized teams, are moving people off the game to implement DLC and as such the game itself is being developed with less then the full compliment of staff as opposed to, say, adding more people to the team so they can do both?

Is that what's going on here?
Are you people shitting me?

gizmo

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Could be using that time to give the pc version a simple thing like gamepad support. Might you know, encourage pc players to be happier about their version of the game and therefore buy the dlc.

Was the GUI for the PC version not already redesigned for mouse and keyboard controls?

While it's certainly not a code issue given the fact that UE3 already ships with full controller support, if the above is true then it at least lends credence to the official explanation that the GUI team was already stretched thin.

Zeouterlimits

gizmo wrote: »

Was the GUI for the PC version not already redesigned for mouse and keyboard controls?

While it's certainly not a code issue given the fact that UE3 already ships with full controller support, if the above is true then it at least lends credence to the official explanation that the GUI team was already stretched thin.

Oh I believe that staffer, but my point is :
Bioware has resources, and will no doubt be developing and supporting ME3 with more DLC, as they did with ME2. Surely, along with this, now that UI team is ostensibly "free", (likely on holiday, but upon return) implement gamepad support.

Kiith

So we complain if a pc game doesn't get proper mouse/keyboard support.

And now we complain that a game does get proper mouse/keyboard support but doesn't support a gamepad.

Zeouterlimits

Kiith wrote: »

So we complain if a pc game doesn't get proper mouse/keyboard support.

And now we complain that a game does get proper mouse/keyboard support but doesn't support a gamepad.

Lots of people use gamepads. Most modern pc games have inbuilt support for gamepads, some even automatically switch UI's when you plug in a controller .e.g. The Witcher 2.

hooradiation

Kiith wrote: »

So we complain if a pc game doesn't get proper mouse/keyboard support.

And now we complain that a game does get proper mouse/keyboard support but doesn't support a gamepad.

We are through the looking glass here, people.

Up is down, left is blue, and Santa is a mean bastard that travels the globe breaking into houses and steal children's favourite toys.

hightower1

Nody wrote: »

That's known as the Director's cut/edition; it's usually released a year after the original release to force people to buy a second copy of the same movie using stuff already filmed at the time. One of the masters of this is of course the Star Wars series which has been re-released over and over again.

And thats my point exactly, this day 1 DLC is like releasing the "basic" edition in cinemas for 7eur per ticket but then simulatiously releasing a directors cut verison in the cinema for 10 eur a ticket... you simlpy wouldnt get away with it.

SeantheMan

Zeouterlimits wrote: »

Lots of people use gamepads. Most modern pc games have inbuilt support for gamepads, some even automatically switch UI's when you plug in a controller .e.g. The Witcher 2.

It would be a minimal percent of PC Gamers who own Joypads, let alone use them for games.
I have a wired 360 controller for my PC, but never use.
When I buy a game for my PC I would expect to have to use the Keyboard/Mouse , unless it was a racing/flight SIM whereby It would have a dedicated peripheral.

hightower1

gizmo wrote: »

And this is where the misunderstanding manifests itself. The developer is using 100% of their resources on the project, what is being spent on DLC is additional time, money and general resources, the mythical 110% you could say. If this DLC didn't exist then none of this would be required because the content would not exist..

The point Im making (probably not as clear as it could be too so apolagies for that) is say for example if bioware had 100 people total for this game... they devote 90 to the main game and 10 to day 1 DLC. Now if the DLC was not to exist Im sure those 10 devs wouldnt sit around flicking rubber bands at each other. They would be working on improving the main game and adding to the content rather than making additional content.

I can see what your saying about the process perhaps being that they initally had 100 people to make the game and EA hired 10 more to make the DLC but realisticly I doubt that was the case. From a greedy corperate POV which we kinda all know EA is the chancer are that they simple undercut the staff / content in order to make more money for no additional cost.

Zero-Cool

Apparently there are huge spoilers around the net, even bigger before. Def not going near the official forums now.

Varik

hightower1 wrote: »

The point Im making (probably not as clear as it could be too so apolagies for that) is say for example if bioware had 100 people total for this game... they devote 90 to the main game and 10 to day 1 DLC. Now if the DLC was not to exist Im sure those 10 devs wouldnt sit around flicking rubber bands at each other. They would be working on improving the main game and adding to the content rather than making additional content.

I can see what your saying about the process perhaps being that they initally had 100 people to make the game and EA hired 10 more to make the DLC but realisticly I doubt that was the case. From a greedy corperate POV which we kinda all know EA is the chancer are that they simple undercut the staff / content in order to make more money for no additional cost.

Everyone obviously does not do everything on a game. There will be points were the art guys have nothing to do and as seen employee numbers will be increasing and decreasing throughout a game.

People will be move from project to project when needed or let go when there is no future work for them.

gizmo

hightower1 wrote: »

The point Im making (probably not as clear as it could be too so apolagies for that) is say for example if bioware had 100 people total for this game... they devote 90 to the main game and 10 to day 1 DLC. Now if the DLC was not to exist Im sure those 10 devs wouldnt sit around flicking rubber bands at each other. They would be working on improving the main game and adding to the content rather than making additional content.

I can see what your saying about the process perhaps being that they initally had 100 people to make the game and EA hired 10 more to make the DLC but realisticly I doubt that was the case. From a greedy corperate POV which we kinda all know EA is the chancer are that they simple undercut the staff / content in order to make more money for no additional cost.

But that is the case, in this example anyway. Those 100 people were on the team because the project, as designed, called for it. That design included the DLC. If the DLC was not there then those people would not be required.

That is of course an extreme case for substantial content. In most cases it would be far smaller and we'd be talking more about the time allocated for such DLC work rather than more personnel. This does cost a decent chunk of money though but as Varik said, different people from different departments would be working on different content when they're free. At the end of the day though it would still extend development time which would have been factored in during the inital budgeting.

degrassinoel

hooradiation wrote: »

We are through the looking glass here, people.

Up is down, left is blue, and Santa is a mean bastard that travels the globe breaking into houses and steal children's favourite toys.

hot snow falls up?

marco_polo

Kiith wrote: »

So we complain if a pc game doesn't get proper mouse/keyboard support.

And now we complain that a game does get proper mouse/keyboard support but doesn't support a gamepad.

I'd imagine those groups of compainers are fairly mutually exclusive though?

There is no real reason to not have it, given that it is already a multiplatform game its not like they would have to alter the gameplay mechanics, and the UE 3 engine has inbuilt controller support as others have pointed out.

Shiminay

Dragon Age 2 didn't have Controller support out of the box either, that really annoyed me cause it was meant to be a "hack n slash" sorta game, so it seems that when Bioware needs to save time, putting in "minority" control mechanisms and having to re-do the interface to match is one of the places they do it in (and there are all sorts of reasons for or against that, but that's how this particular company does it, so we move on).

The fact that this isn't just a "by the numbers" console port and that it's been optimised for PC is something we should be more than thankful for - companies are finally starting to realise that PCs are back in as they're now capable of way more performance than a console until the next gen of consoles makes an appearance. EA has learned this well - BF3 sold more PC hardware than anything else in the last year I'd say and they also had a Crysis title come out last year too.

So yea, the lack of controller support is annoying, but if you want to play with a controller, why on earth are you playing on PC? I played a lot of ME2 on both 360 and PC and the PC version with M+K was infinitely better, more accurate and the "scanning planets" was literally 10 times faster (that broke my heart on the 360 it took so long). But I'm not gonna say one is right or wrong - each to their own.

As for the day 1 DLC stuff and the overall monetisation of the game, Total Biscuit, has just now posted the following with his thoughts:

[edit] I will add that TB's YouTube contains spoilers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri0vrJ-y2zM

Zero-Cool

Vid up on youtube showing one of the devs unboxing tge game and how you can flip the cover inside if you want femshep instead. They are also giving 2 days xbox live free.