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IMRA season 2011
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Only 3 would have meet the AAI criteria of competing in the Irish Championships.
Correct, but wrong 3 - the 3 are Barry Minnock, Mark Ryan, Ian Conroy
MacMahon & Furey would also qualify from road 10k
The IMRA Irish Championship is really a badly titled competition IMHO. It does not have championship status and nor should it have as it's on terrain that is not comparable to euro/world championship races. Some consistency is required. It should be called the Irish League.
There should be 2 Irish mountain running championship races and both should be given AAI championship status:
- National Uphill Championship
- National Mountain Championship
with these championship races used as trial races, solving lots of problems
A proper championship would help increase competition. As solely a trial, placing in these competitions doesn't matter - temporary bragging rights always replaced by performances in euros/worlds.
Why can't I resist the temptation of getting involved in these discussions?
Actually, following on from Enduro's advice, I'm going to construct this as a motion for AGM ...0 -
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Are you serious?
Last time I checked it was the Irish MOUNTAIN Running, not Irish TRAIL running.
Have you raced in the UK at all or have you see the British Fell Running Championship races?
They hold separate International Trial races - are the UK guys out performing the Irish guys on the International circuit??
Do I suspect a hint of jealousy here?
Lets throw in some rocks to slow the fast guys down - mountain running on a European & World level is about gradient, not technical running. It should be about fitness and strength, not about who's willing to take the most risks.
If we sent regular IMRA runners we would be well behind our UK rivals. With the current pre-selections and those going for trial we will have a competitive Irish team. Anyone who thinks otherwise have not been to one of these championships.
This bravado around technical running is what's wrong with Irish mountain running and is why it's not respected. Of course there is a place for technical races with IMRA. If we had a AAI championship on terrain equivalent to euro/world champs we would raise the standard. That's what we need.
AAI to take over Irish mountain running championship races.
IMRA to rename their races.
All controversial I know, but it will happen - only a matter of time ...
p.s. fell Running is not the same as mountain running
& yes I have tried an odd Brittish fell race0 -
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Do I suspect a hint of jealousy here? Lets throw in some rocks to slow the fast guys down - mountain running on a European & World level is about gradient, not technical running. It should be about fitness and strength, not about who's willing to take the most risks.
If we sent regular IMRA runners we would be well behind our UK rivals. With the current pre-selections and those going for trial we will have a competitive Irish team. Anyone who thinks otherwise have not been to one of these championships.
This bravado around technical running is what's wrong with Irish mountain running and is why it's not respected. Of course there is a place for technical races with IMRA. If we had a AAI championship on terrain equivalent to euro/world champs we would raise the standard. That's what we need.
AAI to take over Irish mountain running championship races.
IMRA to rename their races.
All controversial I know, but it will happen - only a matter of time ...
p.s. fell Running is not the same as mountain running
& yes I have tried an odd Brittish fell race
Jealousy isn't a word I'd use to describe my sentiments towards all this lark.
At the end of the day, it makes no difference to me who gets selected. I just think that an athlete should be involved in mountain running to get selected as seen as they are getting funded by IMRA.
Oh, and baz, I'm an orienteer'er, not a runner.
I use off road IMRA races to complement my training.
I would direct you to O.ie, but I'm pretty sure, trying to stay completely mentally focused on a highly detailed map making split second decisions while racing over rough forested and mountainous terrain wouldn't be your cup of tea 0 -
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Jealousy isn't a word I'd use to describe my sentiments towards all this lark.
At the end of the day, it makes no difference to me who gets selected. I just think that an athlete should be involved in mountain running to get selected as seen as they are getting funded by IMRA.
Oh, and baz, I'm an orienteer'er, not a runner.
I use off road IMRA races to complement my training.
I would direct you to O.ie, but I'm pretty sure, trying to stay completely mentally focused on a highly detailed map making split second decisions while racing over rough forested and mountainous terrain wouldn't be your cup of tea
For someone into orienteering, you've a lot of opinions on mountain running - if it makes no difference, why post? Slagging was only a bit of banter I enjoy running as hard as I can. You're right - orienteering isn't my cup of tea & I don't know much about it, so I don't go onto orienteering forums offering my opinion.
You've hit a key item here - IMRA part-funding teams that really should be AAI-funded. It's a difficult one, but the main thing for now is I believe the selectors are doing the best possible at the moment to send the most competitive team and that's in everyone's interest.
Be aware that funding going to senior runners for euro/world champs isn't that much - LOC cover hotel/food costs, AAI for gear & contribution, athletes make significant contribution & so IMRA only part pay flights. Not that big a deal and it's money well spent in my opinion. Vast majority of funding goes to underage runners, but yet this doesn't seem to get much attention.0 -
For someone into orienteering, you've a lot of opinions on mountain running - if it makes no difference, why post? Slagging was only a bit of banter I enjoy running as hard as I can. You're right - orienteering isn't my cup of tea & I don't know much about it, so I don't go onto orienteering forums offering my opinion.
You've hit a key item here - IMRA part-funding teams that really should be AAI-funded. It's a difficult one, but the main thing for now is I believe the selectors are doing the best possible at the moment to send the most competitive team and that's in everyone's interest.
Be aware that funding going to senior runners for euro/world champs isn't that much - LOC cover hotel/food costs, AAI for gear & contribution, athletes make significant contribution & so IMRA only part pay flights. Not that big a deal and it's money well spent in my opinion. Vast majority of funding goes to underage runners, but yet this doesn't seem to get much attention.
For a road runner you've a lot of opinions on mountain running.
The funding is what I am most interested in.
In orienteering, a fair bit of resources were pumped into it to get a competitive junior squad up and running. A gang of juniors begin to train and everyone of them wants to be on top... Slowly this has filtered through to Senior level and now the standard at senior level is beginning to be raised, slowly but surely.
I don't understand why this isn't happening in IMRA. Surely it would be better for the sport if more runners got involved at the sharp end.
PF mentioned raising the standard of the regular IMRA runner - well if the roadies that are hoping to be selected got more involved, surely that would raise the standard across the board??0 -
For a road runner you've a lot of opinions on mountain running.
I'll hit my 100th IMRA race on Saturday - think that qualifies me as a mountain runner. 4 senior international events gives me a right to comment?
Turn up at trial on Saturday and you'll have right to comment
Road running definitely compliments mountain running - ask John 'the legend' Lenihan.In orienteering, a fair bit of resources were pumped into it to get a competitive junior squad up and running. A gang of juniors begin to train and everyone of them wants to be on top... Slowly this has filtered through to Senior level and now the standard at senior level is beginning to be raised, slowly but surely.
I don't understand why this isn't happening in IMRA. Surely it would be better for the sport if more runners got involved at the sharp end.
PF mentioned raising the standard of the regular IMRA runner - well if the roadies that are hoping to be selected got more involved, surely that would raise the standard across the board??
IMRA have invested heavily in underage levels, but have not got a return. All the quality leave the sport as it's not truly respected by 'athletes'. To change this championship races need to be tough but runnable so that good athletes know risk of injury is limited. Also there needs to be true championship status sanctioned by AAI. Just my opinion & I reserve the right to change my mind 0 -
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Correct, but wrong 3 - the 3 are Barry Minnock, Mark Ryan, Ian Conroy
MacMahon & Furey would also qualify from road 10k
The IMRA Irish Championship is really a badly titled competition IMHO. It does not have championship status and nor should it have as it's on terrain that is not comparable to euro/world championship races. Some consistency is required. It should be called the Irish League.
There should be 2 Irish mountain running championship races and both should be given AAI championship status:
- National Uphill Championship
- National Mountain Championship
with these championship races used as trial races, solving lots of problems
A proper championship would help increase competition. As solely a trial, placing in these competitions doesn't matter - temporary bragging rights always replaced by performances in euros/worlds.
Why can't I resist the temptation of getting involved in these discussions?
Actually, following on from Enduro's advice, I'm going to construct this as a motion for AGM ...
I would support that motion, I believe the controversy around it would be largely semantic (I'll explain) but that this proposal could actually have a chance of affecting a lasting change in IMRA high performance levels. There is no doubt an AAI sanction matters and would heighten the prestige of an event just as EVAA and IAAF involvement has done for the Europeans and the Worlds.
As for the controversy being merely semantic: Mountain running as it is generally understood by the WMRA is on good paths, it just so happens to be confusing here because IMRA uses the name "mountain running association" when in reality its major championship series are fell running events. Fell running obviously has not been adopted here because the local hills are not branded with that term but things would be easier to distinguish if they were.
Sarah Rowell uses the same distinction in "Off-Road Running" where she has separate chapters for fell running, mountain running (the European kidn), cross-country running and orienteering.
The title "Irish League" may take away too much from the event for some people but if IMRA decides to remove the Championship nomer to avoid confusion with a proposed AAI sanctioned championship, it should be easy to come up with a suitably attractive title perhaps adding Trophy or similar. The Lakeland Classic Trophy is a good example of a major championship in this vein which still retains its magic and prestige (if not numbers). An alternative is to call it the IMRA Championship etc.
From a coaches perspective operating within an athletics club, it has been hard work to get our sport respected. We now have our own dedicated section and obviously dedicated coach (e.g. me) for the discipline but we're still the ugly duckling. AAI sanctioned championships for our club to target would help my daily proselytising intra-club to no end. I memorably remember one older board member stating to Aoife when she first qualified for the Worlds and they realised it was AAI supported "oh, it's like a real championship".0 -
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IMRA have invested heavily in underage levels, but have not got a return. All the quality leave the sport as it's not truly respected by 'athletes'. To change this championship races need to be tough but runnable so that good athletes know risk of injury is limited. Also there needs to be true championship status sanctioned by AAI. Just my opinion & I reserve the right to change my mind
Do really think that all the juniors dissapear because the championship races are the wrong format! I really doubt that that is the reason. Mountain biking has the same issue, and there is no doubting the status of their national championships. I think the explanations are far more real world than that (leave school, go to college, get distracted by all the usual new distractions available!!)0 -
I would support that motion, I believe the controversy around it would be largely semantic (I'll explain) but that this proposal could actually have a chance of affecting a lasting change in IMRA high performance levels. There is no doubt an AAI sanction matters and would heighten the prestige of an event just as EVAA and IAAF involvement has done for the Europeans and the Worlds.
Hoisted by my own petard. Putting any/all of these motions forward for the AGM would be great, as it would get the whole thing debated. Of course getting people to turn up for the debate is the bigger problem!
Again, I would have my doubts that the AAI care enough about hill running to get involved with the national championships. It would be great to be proved wrong. But until they do we will have to continue to operate as we currently do and administer everything ourselves (IMRA is of course recognised by both AAI and WMRA as being the governing body for mountain running in Ireland).As for the controversy being merely semantic: Mountain running as it is generally understood by the WMRA is on good paths, it just so happens to be confusing here because IMRA uses the name "mountain running association" when in reality its major championship series are fell running events. Fell running obviously has not been adopted here because the local hills are not branded with that term but things would be easier to distinguish if they were.
Sarah Rowell uses the same distinction in "Off-Road Running" where she has separate chapters for fell running, mountain running (the European kidn), cross-country running and orienteering.
The title "Irish League" may take away too much from the event for some people but if IMRA decides to remove the Championship nomer to avoid confusion with a proposed AAI sanctioned championship, it should be easy to come up with a suitably attractive title perhaps adding Trophy or similar. The Lakeland Classic Trophy is a good example of a major championship in this vein which still retains its magic and prestige (if not numbers). An alternative is to call it the IMRA Championship etc.
To me this is a seperate issue from the key points being debated, which is international selection and funding. However, to engage with your point, If the AAI did want to come in and sanction and Irish championship event, I personally wouldn't see any issues in renaming all the various events to make it all fit. My only goal would be to ensure that the series of races currently known as the Irish championship survived as the pincacle league series of Irish fell running (to use your terminology). Again, I just can't see the AAI being bothered to make this happen.
In the mean time, the reality is that IMRA is primarily a fell running organisation, under your terms. The membership consitently vote with their feet on this one. The tougher LL is better supported than the trail league (A league of more european style races). The spring trail league, again consiting of more european style trail races, didn't garner a huge amount of support from the regular membership. Anecdotally, Its pretty much been 100% my expereince that the tougher (more fell like) the race, the better the feedback from participants about the race. And again, to me what matters is the membership, not the international teams.From a coaches perspective operating within an athletics club, it has been hard work to get our sport respected. We now have our own dedicated section and obviously dedicated coach (e.g. me) for the discipline but we're still the ugly duckling. AAI sanctioned championships for our club to target would help my daily proselytising intra-club to no end. I memorably remember one older board member stating to Aoife when she first qualified for the Worlds and they realised it was AAI supported "oh, it's like a real championship".
I feel your pain! But unfortunately its outside our control to a large extent.0 -
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Do really think that all the juniors dissapear because the championship races are the wrong format! I really doubt that that is the reason. Mountain biking has the same issue, and there is no doubting the status of their national championships. I think the explanations are far more real world than that (leave school, go to college, get distracted by all the usual new distractions available!!)
It's definitely a factor. Many of the former IMRA underage internationals remain in athletes but are told to avoid the hills primarily due to the risk of injury. There is nothing wrong with the current IMRA race schedule - some absolutely fantastic routes and I'm certainly not suggesting changing the classic races. I just think there is a place for AAI sanctioned Euro style championship races in order to attract higher quality to the hills.A huge percentage of IMRA's annual budget goes on international funding (Both junior and senior). IIRC, off the top of my head, its over 50% of our annual spend. That's a serious amount of money for such a small organisation. If the internationals consider that the IMRA conrtibution is not a big deal then we should defintely stop this funding and use it for something more benificial to the membership at large, rather then the elite few. That would kill off my issues with the international selections, which are mainly to do with the race fees of hundreds of people being used to fund internationals who make no contribution to IMRA, bar doing what is necessary to get their Irish vest (When those same contributers are expected to volunteer to get their LL prize etc, a mere fraction of the funding given to non-contibuting internationals).
Underage funding is a seperate debate I think, so I won't get into it here.
50% is a substantial amount, but it's probably only 15-20% to senior athletes and to me this is a good investment for IMRA. If it's a funding issue then underage has to be part of the discussion as they are way more expesive due to the extra competitions, competitors and management requirement.
Senior athletes always get the grief for this funding question. Seniors like Brian and Stephen invest a lot personally to make sure they are in peak condition for the mountains and deserve pre-selection as they've proved their class. It's particularly exciting to attract a talent like Stephen to the hills and it could lead to someone coming up board soon who has a change of individual medal (e.g. Fionnuala Britton would be an exciting prospect in an uphill race). Why force people into running unsuitable IMRA races?
Cost of race entry is only €7 and IMRA give so much back to regular IMRA runners (e.g. LL prize). Why is there so much begrudgery to some funding going to quality athletes? Even if they are not regulars they give a lot back to IMRA and mountain running.
It comes up every year to the point that athletes feel guilty going on international trips. As I've said before LOC pay food & accomodation, AAI gear & contribution, athletes typically €150 each toward flight with IMRA only paying rest of flight costs. Not that much and good value. Debate is healthy, but better get back to work here 0 -
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It's definitely a factor. Many of the former IMRA underage internationals remain in athletes but are told to avoid the hills primarily due to the risk of injury. There is nothing wrong with the current IMRA race schedule - some absolutely fantastic routes and I'm certainly not suggesting changing the classic races. I just think there is a place for AAI sanctioned Euro style championship races in order to attract higher quality to the hills.
That's a fair point... lots of coaches have no idea about the hills.
I'm not disagreeing with having an international style Irish championsip race endorsed by AAI. In fact I think it would be very benificial for IMRA, for the reason you outlined. I just can't see AAI being bothered.50% is a substantial amount, but it's probably only 15-20% to senior athletes and to me this is a good investment for IMRA. If it's a funding issue then underage has to be part of the discussion as they are way more expesive due to the extra competitions, competitors and management requirement.
Senior athletes always get the grief for this funding question. Seniors like Brian and Stephen invest a lot personally to make sure they are in peak condition for the mountains and deserve pre-selection as they've proved their class. It's particularly exciting to attract a talent like Stephen to the hills and it could lead to someone coming up board soon who has a change of individual medal (e.g. Fionnuala Britton would be an exciting prospect in an uphill race). Why force people into running unsuitable IMRA races?
Volunteering would be even better than running races!!! No chance of injury (or picking up usefull hillrunning skillsets) that way either
I's kind of pointless arguing the relative costs of underage and seniors without the figures to hand, so I'll leave it be until I can find what the actual numbers are!
I'm not questioning the class or ability of any runners selected for the international team. (However I would question the aversion shown to the Irish mountain running scene as I think they are losing out as a result, but that's a seperate discussion.).Cost of race entry is only €7 and IMRA give so much back to regular IMRA runners (e.g. LL prize). Why is there so much begrudgery to some funding going to quality athletes? Even if they are not regulars they give a lot back to IMRA and mountain running.
That's where I disagree. To my mind, anyone who does the trials, then gets funded to head to internationals, and does no more, is not giving anything back. It's in stark contrast to the likes of yourself, Peter, John Lenihan etc. In fact they are getting a lot from IMRA. As well as the funding they are also getting the chance to earn an Irish vest and represent their country (and our association) internationally. To my mind that's a very big thing that shouldn't be dismissed lightly.It comes up every year to the point that athletes feel guilty going on international trips. As I've said before LOC pay food & accomodation, AAI gear & contribution, athletes typically €150 each toward flight with IMRA only paying rest of flight costs. Not that much and good value. Debate is healthy, but better get back to work here
The argument/debate isn't targetted at individual runners, but rather IMRA policy. If the athletes still feel guilty then they are more than welcome to give something back to the organisation by volunteering in any way like (as many, such as yourself, have done to a huge extent in the past).
You're being dismissive again of a huge cost to IMRA. Flights can be quite expensive, so the difference between €150 and the full cost can be quite a lot, especally when multiplied accross 8 or 9 people. If you think it's insignificant then my issue with the current set-up would be removed if the athletes paid their own way. There is a lot that could potential be done with that kind of money which you consider insignificant. Actual figures would be useful here... I can try and get them.0 -
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However, that irks! An Irish cap should never be worthless. I don't really believe that you think it would be.
Bad choice of words - no I don't believe it would ever be considered worthless However, respect in relation any achievement is linked to how difficult it is to achieve.
This year it will be bloody difficult to get on the team and that's the way it should be. For the first time in ages I expect it will be very difficult to pick the top-4 scorers from the 6 selected in the senior men - also the way it should be.0
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