[Feedback] What's wrong with the Airsoft forum? How do we fix it?

Steve

So, there's been a lot of unrest in the ranks of late, here's your official chance to let the us know what you think is wrong and offer your ideas on how to fix it.

Please post honestly and in a civil manner, criticism is welcomed as long as you back up your point with a reasonable argument.

I've asked the other mods not to intervene in this thread - that is not free reign to start posting insults or anything that falls outside boards.ie general guidelines.

This thread has a limited life, it will run for two weeks after which it will be closed and reviewed.

The floor is yours....

Witcher

I'm going to bring my quotes over from the off-topic because they sum up how I feel and I couldn't be bothered restating it all again because I've little faith anything will come of this but I hope it does. Here's my slightly edited 2c anyway:

Blay wrote: »

The forum is sh1t lately and everyone knows it is, I've started spending more time over on Arnies as has Masada from here.

The guy is sharing his tech knowledge over on Arnies rather than here which is sad, Arnies is what Boards used to be like, you hardly even notice mods over there. As for tech info- if we didn't have Puding etc. we'd be done for, experienced people are leaving here and it's the same people answering questions etc. all the time.

The bottom line is: The forum is dying and it's losing members so what's going to be done about it?

Blay wrote: »

I'm talking about other threads that have been locked because they've 'run their course' etc. and also posts being deleted.

Look at this thread(Off Topic Madness), its become SFW now... 3 years after being opened...ignoring the fact the 800+ pages that got along fine and being allowed to run relatively freely.

I've got no real stake here, I've been on here three years and would class it as home when I'm online given that the forum is always open when I'm on a computer. If people want to let it go to sh1t fine, I'll just go to Arnies or another forum as others will but its a disgrace imo to see the forum go this way.

Blay wrote: »

I don't think anyone is looking for major changes or to make an Arnies clone just to be allowed to discuss airsoft on a discussion forum. It's become ridiculous even since the last thread we had debating this.

At one time the forum was great for both discussion and a laugh at the same time now discussion is barely allowed. There's no reason the forum can't go back to how it was. Step up and acknowledge the criticism, don't hide behind moderator status.

Stop nannying people, we don't need to be spoon fed, let us discuss airsoft. If people step out of line, get rid of the person not the topic.

Leftyflip

The way the forum is moderated by a certain mod (we all know who), don't get me wrong, we get along pretty well and are mates, but the style of moderating needs to be changed. As soon as a thread goes off topic it's "Locked, thread has run its course, kthxbai", there's been very little or no use of the simple and effective "Lads back on topic please, future off-topic discussions will result in warnings, etc". Not to mention the fact that at least a page of craic and banter was deleted from the best teams thread, very much something I'd have imagined would be for some banter. People are actually becoming afraid to voice their opinion, for fear that they'll get banned, it's quite ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that many users have left the forum or aren't as active anymore (Masada, Kevteljuer, Gerrowadat, Doc,Rogue, Dex, countless others), a lot of the more knowledgeable members and some fairly nice guys too.

The forum here used to be the best we could get to being in the safe zone having a chat and a bit of craic, with the only rules being literally "no abuse to other members" or whatever it is. Whether you loved or hated him, you have to admit, Moggy's distasteful jokes and pictures were funny and one of the main reasons I look in the off-topic thread, but now you've nanny-ed it up and made it SFW (Safe For Work) and it's just not the same, there's no vibe to it. Now instead of being a virtual safe zone, we're essentially in an airsoft class-room with Mr. Balls-in-a-twist and are slapped for going off topic.

It's boring around here now and as one of the lads said, a few months ago, there would always be new posts springing up, now, up to an hour goes by for a post to pop up. The only forum with any sort of regularity to its post count is Airsoft Adverts and to be honest, I'm expecting that to go to shít too, which a lot of users, myself included will not be impressed at all. I use that forum quite a lot, it helps other people get what they want at a good price and you can often get some real gems on there and also meet some great guys! Essentially people don't feel obligated to post anymore as the threads are just locked and forgotten about.

This still feels quite fitting:
RIP Airsoft on Boards.

Shiva

Thanks for this opportunity Steve....its very much appreciated.

Ok...having had a little think about this over the last few days, heres where I think the problems lie -

There has been behind the scenes talk of power-tripping and arrogance, but I dont actually think thats the problem. Most of the mods are airsofters, whether active or semi-retired, so I dont think power-tripping is the problem, at least not consciously, because we run into them in real life, and to a man, they're decent blokes.

Boards.ie is a topic-led discussion forum. 99.9% of the forums are populated by people who rarely, if ever, meet in real life, so during a discussion, its all too easy for it to descend into abusive and personal slagging matches, rather than point-by-point discussion, argument and counter-argument. Hence the pretty strict rules which evolved over time to enable discussion to take place without always turning into a frag-fest. Given the size of the Boards.ie hierarchy of fora, those rules have had to be applied across the board, and are pretty inflexible.

And thats where the problems lie, I think. The airsoft forum is a different beast altogether. The proportion of people who know each other in "real life" is much, much higher, so its inevitable that banter will creep into almost every discussion....questions about which scope will fit an M16 carry handle might get sidetracked by discussions on how effective multicam is ( In Ireland its not very, incidentally...but its damn sexy). This is natural - as Sam pointed out in his post in the off-topic thread, its the kind of thing that happens when a few lads are on a skirmish site having a chat, or happen to meet up in one of the shops. Its a natural progression for it to happen here.

The argument can be made that a newbie coming into the forum for the first time looking for specific information might feel intimidated when he sees a thread which at first glance looks to contain the information he's looking for get sidetracked into some banter between mates, and he might think its a closed forum and not bother posting or taking part. I dont think that argument can be used in this case - it does have some substance for other fora, where the users wouldn't interact in the real world, but lets remember - Airsoft is a group activity (apart from the collectors amongst us, whom I dont wish to alienate) so a newbie to the game will eventually meet some of the regulars here on a skirmish site, and most likely get to know them and start to take part in the banter.

On the topic of post deletions...I realise sometimes its necessary, but I'd like to see it kept to an absolute minimum, and only used when absolutely necessary. There have been cases of perfectly innocent posts being deleted and no notification or reason being given. This is not acceptable - its causes great frustration on the part of the poster, and subsequently reduces their willingness to contribute in future.

Tag deletions - As highlighted by Gareth, there were a number of tags deleted from the Off-Topic thread, again with no notification or explanation. Unless there was some kind of personal abuse going on, I can't see why that would happen, or what offense they caused.

Post reporting. We've all at some point or another been told if we have a problem with a post, we should click the little red triangle. Well, I've done that in the past and nothing has been done, and I've received no feedback. I'm willing to admit that I may have reported a post that was perfectly innocent, and thats why nothing was done, but it would be nice to get some feedback about it so I know. Otherwise it can cause accusations of bias.

My biggest issue is with locking threads. It drives me insane. I honestly dont believe theres any reason to lock a thread other than it was started as a troll. If the discussion veers way too far off-topic, a gentle reminder to get back on topic is available as a moderation tool. Likewise, if a row erupts and personal abuse starts to get thrown about, the option to sanction the poster exists - I start breathing fire when I see a thread locked because two idiots cant see the difference between a reasoned argument and a mortal insult. And this new thing that seems to have cropped up where the original poster decides to "request lock" ? GTFO Once someone writes a new topic post, and clicks submit, they lose ownership of it. They have absolutely no right to request its closing. If they dont want to take part, they can simply stop posting there.

Another issue I have ( I know, I have loads !) is this perception that moderators are not accountable to the users. I understand that Boards.ie take a very dim view of users questioning mod decisions, and that this is a Boards-wide thing, but in my opinion, its wrong, especially in a forum like this. I know there has to be a certain amount of respect paid to the moderators, and I acknowledge that its not an easy job to do, but every single moderator who accepts that responsibility does so knowing full well its a tough job - No-one is made moderator who hasn't been active in their forum, so this whole "We're volunteers, dont question us" attitude just doesnt cut it. You can say Feedback, Helpdesk and PMs are options if you dont agree with a moderator decision, but frankly, thats a farcical way to handle complaints. With Feedback you get every jackass with an opinion wading in, and in most cases moderators of other forums wade in with "Dem's the rules, deal with it" posts without even considering the complainant might have a valid case. Helpdesk is also pointless because only the complainant, the moderator and the various cmods and admins can interact there, so the complainant ends up being outnumbered. And god help the poor bugger if he isnt very articulate !

So anyway....sorry for the long post. To sum up, below are a few things that I feel might help make things run smoother around here. Perhaps not all of them are feasible, but at the very least, I'll throw them out there as options.

1 - Posts shouldn't always be deleted and warnings issued if a thread strays off-topic. Its the very nature of our discussions that they wander and evolve - I think they should be allowed do so, within reason.

2 - Posts should not be deleted under any circumstances without notifying the poster as to why. Its common courtesy.

3 - If a post is reported, it would be nice to receive feedback as to why a decision was made not to act on the report. It might not be feasible, and I suppose it would depend on the volume of reports made, but it would certainly be nice to have.

4 - Threads should only be locked under extreme circumstances, such as a deliberate attempt on the part of the original poster to troll. If a thread erupts into open warfare, I wouldnt have a problem with it being locked temporarily, the offfenders dealt with, and the thread being re-opened later when people have cooled down.

5 - I'd love to see Feeback type thread in this forum where people can question or appeal decisions without being thrown the usual "Take it to Feedback" line. I dont know if its feasible, or if the Admins of Boards.ie would agree to it, but it would go a long, long, looooong way to cutting out some of the bad feeling that crops up every week or so.

So thats it...thats how I personally would like to see things proceed. Again, just my personal opinion, and many of you might disagree with some or all of the points, and I'm sure some of you will have more to add.

One last point I'd like to make, without being too bolshy, if I may....and I've said it many times before.

Moderators are not here to control a forum, direct it, or decide what can and cannot be spoken about. They are here simply to make sure everyone plays fair and maintains a certain level of civility. The users own the forum.

Stercus Accidit

I agree with Tony completely, he has summed it up perfectly, I'm too tired and cranky to do a proper post and elaborate a little with my own slant on things but for now I'm gonna say a big +1 to the above. I'll try to say a few things though.

This is a different forum as a social entity, we have a smaller comunity that has a higher number of people who know each other, it is more personal and is not topic driven. It HAS to be addressed as such, and tactless application of rules will not work, and wielding the boards.ie typical feedback rules wont work because you destroy the personal atmosphere that allows this forum to work.

I think a strong moderation policy needs to be written up and placed along with the charter which restricts the interference of moderation with the natural run of the online safe zone. The personal banter is what draws in and welcomes people, and that needs to be protected, outright flaming trolls get banned, damaging or defaming threads are locked or deleted, genuine topics which are serious are dealt with temporary locks, warnings, infractions and moderator interaction and savvy, not the blunt application of the stupid little extra tools your account has that mine doesn't.

I dunno how much of that makes sense, if anyone wants to elaborate on it go ahead, I'm too tired, I would like to thanks however everyone who took the time to cry foul of the damage done to our personal safe zone, and to those who listened and acknowledged the reality of how our forum works and opened this thread. Moderation needs to be seen as the job of keeping things fun, light and personal, not a title, and I am sick of seeing the infallibility sh*te in a few of the older posts, moderators NEED to be accountable and if you take it personally or have too fragile an ego to do it in an unbiased inconsistent manner, have the dignity to retire. I'd rather an egotistical person be a mod as they are less likely to place so much importance on their 'title' and have their ego based on a more secure self image that doesn't involve an internet persona or silly title.

Oh, last thought before I collapse, lets elect the mods ffs, less of this back room boards.ie internet bureaucratic BullSh*t, the users of this forum need a say in its running, have a sticky feedback thread permanantly, have a constant dialogue, have mods who are accountable LISTENING to criticism and not getting defensive, but taking on boards the opinions of the players.

I was very happy with my post before on that, share the burden of policy thing with the users and share the sense of ownership and responsibility for the forum, this post however, is one I should have slept before writing.

Rant!

fayer

Sorry, this is the 3rd time we've had one of these threads, I think the critical mass of experience has already walked / gotten a pain in there hole. No one has addresses the root cause, poor moderation and installing users that didnt have the respect of the community as mods. We dance around this, but it was not the case with the former guard.

Steve

Thanks for the input so far - all good, please keep it coming.

fayer wrote: »

Sorry, this is the 3rd time we've had one of these threads

Links? srsly, I'm still a noob here I'd like to read up on them.

OzCam

Steve, actually it can be summed up in one word: transparency.

Steve

OzCam wrote: »

Steve, actually it can be summed up in one word: transparency.

No offence but could you expand a bit on that please?

I assume what you meant was 'lack of transparency'.

Thanks.

OzCam

Transparency in moderation: there isn't any.

I've written several times, at length and with a great deal of thought, about what's wrong with modding on this forum and how to fix it. I don't think it's down to any one individual either, it's a combination of factors.

NakedDex

To be fair, I don't think Steve is showing attitude. He's new to this forum as a mod and certainly new to the situation that has given rise to this thread.
While everyone else who has been reading the various disputes, or have been involved thus far, know what you're talking about by simply stating a word, this entire thread is about elaboration of such points in an effort to make things as clear as possible to fresh eyes, so that he may, if he can, do something about it on your behalf.
While you have, indeed, written at length about it - as many have - Steve has not seen such contributions. Perhaps rather than what can be perceived as vague statements to outsiders would be better served if they were replaced by links or re-posts of said contributions. Steve has already asked if Fayer would link him to his previous ones, surely showing a genuine willingness to learn and research the full background.

I think a little slack can be given in this regard, given his intention is to assist. Don't you?

OzCam

OK then...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66594771&postcount=110

To quote Bruce Schneier "There are hundreds of comments -- many of them interesting -- on these topics" in the previous thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055950284&highlight=mods

I don't agree with everything Shiva and Fayer say, but there are some useful nuggets in there.

PS: when there's bullying of a mod going on, the rest of the team need to step in. The long-term problems are structural, not down to individual failings.

Lemming

I agree with the general thrust of what Shiva wrote above although not entirely. Since he's written a very well put together post, I'll run with that - and apologies to Shiva for the quotation malarky that is to follow; I'm as much writing my own thoughts as using his words to steer myself lest I get distracted.

Shiva wrote: »

... Hence the pretty strict rules which evolved over time to enable discussion to take place without always turning into a frag-fest. Given the size of the Boards.ie hierarchy of fora, those rules have had to be applied across the board, and are pretty inflexible.

And thats where the problems lie, I think. The airsoft forum is a different beast altogether. The proportion of people who know each other in "real life" is much, much higher,

I don't really think that the above argument applies; the airsoft forum is no different to any other forum on boards.ie really when you cut right down to it. Certainly no different than say; the nocturnal forum, or the surf forum, or paintball, miniature gaming etc. where a lot of people do also know each other physically within relatively small social circles.

I think it's more down the fact that we have a small community that is comparatively new and everyone wants to get their .2c in on how it grows. Nothing wrong in that, but show me any two people who claim to be passionate about a hobby/topic with wildly differing views who never argue about it and I'll show you two very stoned people.

Edit: At the end of the day, users - whilst owning the forum(s) as Shiva has correctly pointed out - also have to take responsibility for their own conduct, as much as they may cry foul on moderator actions.

On the topic of post deletions...I realise sometimes its necessary, but I'd like to see it kept to an absolute minimum, and only used when absolutely necessary. There have been cases of perfectly innocent posts being deleted and no notification or reason being given. This is not acceptable - its causes great frustration on the part of the poster, and subsequently reduces their willingness to contribute in future.

Tag deletions - As highlighted by Gareth, there were a number of tags deleted from the Off-Topic thread, again with no notification or explanation. Unless there was some kind of personal abuse going on, I can't see why that would happen, or what offense they caused.

Regarding post deletion (I haven't witnessed tag deletion so wont comment), it's sensible to at least provide a post on-thread stating that posts have been deleted and that the mods are watching/action taken, etc. as much to notify the users in question as to serve as a warning to all and sundry.

If a post is so outrageous that it warrants removal along with the user getting a ban, the ban notification gets used to explain why they've been banned and/or that their post(s) have been deleted.

Simply deleting posts like a ninja isn't kosher though. And that leads me on to ...

My biggest issue is with locking threads. It drives me insane. I honestly dont believe theres any reason to lock a thread other than it was started as a troll. If the discussion veers way too far off-topic, a gentle reminder to get back on topic is available as a moderation tool. Likewise, if a row erupts and personal abuse starts to get thrown about, the option to sanction the poster exists - I start breathing fire when I see a thread locked because two idiots cant see the difference between a reasoned argument and a mortal insult. And this new thing that seems to have cropped up where the original poster decides to "request lock" ? GTFO Once someone writes a new topic post, and clicks submit, they lose ownership of it. They have absolutely no right to request its closing. If they dont want to take part, they can simply stop posting there.

Threads shouldn't be locked unless there's major trollage going on, or it's gotten very messy and/or there's a full on flame-war going on and the mods need to both calm it all down post-haste and/or time to review it all to decide on a course of action.

From a retired-mod perspective, I would be less likely to lock main forum threads as opposed to specific sub-fora threads and even then it's very much on a sliding scale of necessity. For example, adverts needs ruled with an iron fist given that people stand to lose money due to misunderstandings or unscrupulous behaviour. Unlike the questions sub-forum (for example) where if someone comes in wanting to sell something, the thread just gets moved to adverts and/or any additional action taken regarding that particular sub-forums rules.

In my time, I never, ever locked an adverts thread because the OP was finished with it or requested it locked as a matter of course. Finished adverts threads fall off the back pages gracefully. If there's an issue down the line, the thread can be returned to and that's the way it should be for that forum.

The only other real case I could think of to lock a thread at the OP's request would be if they made a duplicate and realised their mistake. But at that point you can just delete a thread, or merge thread posts together into one where needed.

So in short, an OP requesting thread-lock need a damn good mofo of a reason IMO, otherwise as Shiva has so succinctly said; GTFO.

Post reporting. We've all at some point or another been told if we have a problem with a post, we should click the little red triangle. Well, I've done that in the past and nothing has been done, and I've received no feedback. I'm willing to admit that I may have reported a post that was perfectly innocent, and thats why nothing was done, but it would be nice to get some feedback about it so I know. Otherwise it can cause accusations of bias.

This is a tricky one. All respective mods get notified via email and a thread does get created in a special mod-only forum regarding same whenever a post gets reported - along with whatever comments the user makes (so be careful what you yourself write .... ). But if the mods are all busy with r/l then there's not much that can be done unless an SMod or Admin notices a very large amount of reports coming in regarding a particular thread and acts in the meantime.

Short of having permanent mods on paid, 24/7 shift there's not really much that can be done. To build on what Shiva has suggested though, maybe a stock-response for user-reported posts to let them know it's been received and will be followed up as soon as possible for a mod to review it?

Another issue I have ( I know, I have loads !) is this perception that moderators are not accountable to the users. I understand that Boards.ie take a very dim view of users questioning mod decisions, and that this is a Boards-wide thing, but in my opinion, its wrong, especially in a forum like this. I know there has to be a certain amount of respect paid to the moderators, and I acknowledge that its not an easy job to do, but every single moderator who accepts that responsibility does so knowing full well its a tough job - No-one is made moderator who hasn't been active in their forum, so this whole "We're volunteers, dont question us" attitude just doesnt cut it. You can say Feedback, Helpdesk and PMs are options if you dont agree with a moderator decision, but frankly, thats a farcical way to handle complaints. With Feedback you get every jackass with an opinion wading in, and in most cases moderators of other forums wade in with "Dem's the rules, deal with it" posts without even considering the complainant might have a valid case. Helpdesk is also pointless because only the complainant, the moderator and the various cmods and admins can interact there, so the complainant ends up being outnumbered. And god help the poor bugger if he isnt very articulate !

I'll deal with this in a couple of parts.

First things first (imo of course): the reason for the whole "don't challenge the mods" isn't to discourage users from taking issue, it's historically been to discourage a) threads going willllllllllllllllllldly off-course with insane amounts of FIGTN' DA POWAAA and b) in relation to point a, to keep matters calm lest other users decide to either chip in or start to take potshots at the person taking issue.

If you recall when airsoft adverts first started, the amount of people who simply refused to take stock of the rules and went off on accusation of power-tripping et al. was staggering. This was simply down to the fact that most users never remembered (or weren't around) the old For-sale forums (now incarnated as adverts.ie) and that there were very different and far stricter rules in place than anywhere else on boards.ie. Had the mods entertained every perceived slight on-thread, the adverts forum would have been long since closed down as unworkable due to the signal to noise (mostly noise) ratio.

Ok, so the next bit; taking it to feedback/helpdesk.

Feedback has been cleaned up a lot in the last year as far as I'm aware and before I handed in my modship, the admins were taking efforts to have it cleaned up.

BUT with that said and done, if you go in there ranting and raving and come across like a loony, you wont be doing your position any favours. But then again, pick up the phone and rant and rave like a loony to any service provider/shop/etc. and see how far you get either. Common sense rules the day in your approach.

Helpdesk should never be used as a means of "feedback". It's there for actual problems/troubleshooting, not disagreements or "I dont like de look o dat". This is why posting is restricted, unless the SMods permit specific users to post also. The only caveat to the above I would as is where a user disputes a ban, has approached the mod and their category mod and doesn't feel like they're being listened to.

Wrapping up on what Shiva has said, I would be hesitant to ask for a feedback thread for the airsoft forum as I do not believe that any reliable, meaningful data could be extracted from it. The one for adverts works because it's very specific and focused in what it is there to do and has very stringent rules on how you can use it. The rest of the airsoft forums are just too 'loose' regarding scope for a meaningful feedback thread.

OzCam wrote: »

Transparency in moderation

When people ask for transparency here, what do they want exactly? Full disclosure of every single mod conversation? Mod inboxes made publically viewable? etc. Yes, I'm being overly dramatic here, but it's to make a point

I get the feeling that 'transparency' is less to do with transparency and more to do with feedback on things you do/request or "reasons why <insert event here>". Reported posts may not get acted on at all because they are deemed non-actionable. Reported posts may not get acted on for a few hours because no mods are currently available due to r/l. Suggestions PM'd to mods tend to get batted around a bit and discussion may take a few days (or weeks/months depending on whether or not the issue gets parked and r/l committements), etc. Sometimes there's just a shed-load of activity for mods to get through, sometimes they just don't enough time due to r/l, sometimes they're being lazy or have gotten home after ten hours of work/commute and see a list longer than their arm and think "B*llocks". I'm not defending inaction, simply pointing out that people are people and that mods are people "suckers that said yes" too

MerryDespot

Cheers to Steve for kicking this off - I'm a bit late to this as I was in dim/dark no broadband land until today.

I can't improve too much on the structured and considered post that Shiva has put above. So basically a big +1 on that and Lemming's post that followed. I have to say that as I joined this forum when Lemming was in a mod capacity I associate a lot of What Was Right with the forum with his time in the hot seat, so it's good to see that he's posting his opinion here.

I'm with Tony (Shiva) on the thread locking thing - this, to me, is the airsoft forum equivalent of being sent to The Bold Corner in playschool. It's insulting and implies that a bunch of grown adults can't indulge in a bit of harmless banter without someone having to stomp down on it. Every time I see a locked thread I get a mental image of Fr. Ted and Dougal chained up outside the cinema saying "down with that sort of thing" etc.

Locking a thread for no good reason is really a lazy response in my view - the correct thing would be to deal with the infractions and offenders - not to blanket impact on every other user by shutting it down. It's overkill.

There's a pretty good airsoft community here (and in the real world), but my main issue is that half of the people I consider to be part of the airsoft community on boards (as was) no longer post here or get involved - if what we're doing with this feedback addresses that and leads to them coming back on to boards then I think this will have been a success - as I've said before, their absence makes this a poorer forum.

The very best of luck to you in this Steve - and in your new mod post.

Steve

Many thanks to all for the continued input (and the kind pm's I've received pointing me to relevant threads), I've literally spent the whole day educating myself on the previous issues and threads.

My head hurts from reading them at this stage but I remain confident that we can resolve this.

What I hope to do when this thread has run it's course is distil everyones input into a list of specific items that we need to address. We can then kill them off one by one.

This is only gonna work if both mods and users buy into it.

Steve

I'd just like to add my apologies to OzCam for my comment yesterday - it was uncalled for, reactionary and, as a mod, I should know better.

Inari

I'd like to start with an apology; this will be a long post. I will try and summarise at the end...so if you're not in the humour to read this, skip right on through to the last paragraph.

Steve, I think it is very commendable for you to stir things up as soon as you've become a moderator; you're new to this forum, and are trying to sort things out. I like that a lot, and believe we need more like you. This sort of thing is the kind of transparency I would like to see from the Moderators; you have acknowledged that there is a problem, and are actively (and publically) trying to sort things out. I just hope that this degree of transparency continues, and that we see (or are told of) the outcome.

So, what is the problem? The main problem is an outbreak of 'Mountain out of a mole-hill' syndrome; it's rampant. People are getting fed up with the way in which the forum is A) Run (by the moderators), and the way in which topics are constructed. There is little to no content anymore. There are three main symbiotic, simultaneous and intertwined causes to this:
- The moderators do their job to an extent that it has an adversed reaction on posting
- The users think that it is hopeless to post because of the overzealous moderation (allegedly, I'm not exactly in agreement on this point)
- The other users don't see much posted, and grow tired and stop trying.

People need to try. If no one tries to make things better, they will only degrade. All you have to do is look at this thread - 2 or 3 people have already said "What's the use, been down this road before and nothing changes"; that is some serious disillusionment from only 1 page of a discussion thread. It is imperative that we all try.

On that note, I will segway into Shiva's post. As per usual I would agree heavily with what he has said, albeit I hold a slightly different opinion. This is a community - as a community we decide how we are viewed by how we conduct ourselves. In the past T (Shiva) has drawn upon the similarities of a forum, and a pub. It is a great simile, and is extremely accurate. I'm going to offend and annoy people with this - but it is my opinion as an observer. In this pub we have:
- The staff (mod-squad)
- The local gangs (Hiveminded opinions, along with their own individual thought)
- The regulars (mostly individuals, frequent the place often)
- The casual not-so-regulars
- The drunkards (trollers)
- The passers-by (n00blets)

The staff's job is to keep the place a thriving nervecentre. To do this they must keep all the other groups in their place, and it must be done organically - if it is too rigid, it becomes like a Nazi Regime and the place will cease to exist as a thriving environment. Rigidity and structure is important, but it has it's place (i.e. the charter). The main rules are simple...no Trolling, no Fighting (i.e. full on 'x' V 'y'; fisticuffs in a real pub), no Racism, no Txt sp3ak etc. They're all simple, to the point and have a clear, transparent and easily explainable reason for existing.

The staff have to stop the local gangs from being overpowering; shouting people down, attacking people etc. The staff have to excise the trollers, and educate the new people about the rules and how things work. The staff should NOT have too much to do with the regulars, as these are part and parcel of 'How things are' - so the main thing the staff have to do is introduce some different guidelines to help steer things in the right direction. When this is done right, then everyone is free to have meaningul and topical discussions, as well as friendly banter. Problems arise when it is either not done, or done with too much vigor.

Just like in a pub, when you tell someone to calm down, or take it easy, you can get the backs up of their friends - this is an issue that needs to be sorted out with the two parties; staff and person in question, not with their back up. This should be done in PMs, and it should be made clear that it has been sorted out (i.e. transparency) - a return to the thread to say "Problem sorted" or something akin to that. The local gangs need to learn when to back off a bit for the good of the forum, and not try to take over. I'm saying they are consciously trying, but it can appear so.

The regulars need to try hardest at keeping discussion going - this is where banter is at its most important. So how do we allow banter, and differentiate between outright trolling? Once again, it is a simple solution to a simple problem; context. Make sure that your message can only be taken one way; this can be done as easy as adding emoticons to portray your motive i.e. poking fun etc. The new people should make an effort to learn the ropes, and get a feel for the place before coming in all guns blazing.

Just as a pub has its staff chosen by other staff, I do not believe that moderators should be voted in. Realistically it is a popularity contest, and they rarely end with the right person in power. In a pub it is likely for the local gangs to have a representative, possible for a regular, and unlikely for a new person. The other system is not much different mind you, so why swap a broken system for another broken system? You don't, you compromise; Boards.ie staff could shortlist some interested possibles, and general community could vote.

The crux of the issue is that the pub now has very few people going to it. These people sit in silence. More effort needs to be put in from everyone to instigate some discussion if this place is to thrive once more. Everyone needs to try, and not just say "Discussed before; search" - it could be as simple as providing the answer, and then say "If you'd like more info, there's plenty in this thread, where the question was asked before". There are big differences between the two, with the former conjuring images of exclusivity. The latter is much more welcoming.

Look, to end this post now, before I get scatter brained, the solution is simple. WE NEED TO TRY MORE. The forum is ours, if we whinge and do nothing to change, then nothing will change. If we just try to stir ****, nothing will change. If we play by their rules whilst trying to change them, then we have a much better chance at instigating a transformation. Moderators need to be a little more perceptive and less robotic - guidelines are guidelines. Yeah, I'm stopping here...might revisit to add more.

DeBurca

Steve wrote: »

I'd just like to add my apologies to OzCam for my comment yesterday - it was uncalled for, reactionary and, as a mod, I should know better.

I have been a member of this forum for 2 years and to the best of my knowledge the apology by Steve to OzCam is the first time that I have ever seen a MOD apologise to a member for his comments
It takes a big man to do this and I think with men such as this then this forum is heading in the right direction

TheDoc

Steve wrote: »

I'd just like to add my apologies to OzCam for my comment yesterday - it was uncalled for, reactionary and, as a mod, I should know better.

This, along with the fact you started this thread, gives me, as I'm sure others, great faith in that we can get some sort of resolution and move forward productively.

I'll drop my two cents when I get home ( if i didnt already) two cents being, two pages...

Stercus Accidit

TheDoc wrote: »

This, along with the fact you started this thread, gives me, as I'm sure others, great faith in that we can get some sort of resolution and move forward productively.

I'll drop my two cents when I get home ( if i didnt already) two cents being, two pages...

If opinions are 2 cents you could bail out Ireland!

fayer

Steve wrote: »

Thanks for the input so far - all good, please keep it coming.

Links? srsly, I'm still a noob here I'd like to read up on them.

OzCam wrote: »

OK then...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66594771&postcount=110

To quote Bruce Schneier "There are hundreds of comments -- many of them interesting -- on these topics" in the previous thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055950284&highlight=mods

I don't agree with everything Shiva and Fayer say, but there are some useful nuggets in there.

PS: when there's bullying of a mod going on, the rest of the team need to step in. The long-term problems are structural, not down to individual failings.

Sorry, was off line for the weekend. Thanks for the links Oz.

Steve

Danin

I'd like to say I'm happy with finding this thread but to be honest I'm not....
back in July we had this debate "[Airsoft Feedback] presence and involvement debate" it was so involved that it was removed then in recognition to Dav he reinstated it as he had the vison to see how prevalent to the community it was. Now... here we find ourselves regurgitating the same points again

meanwhile.... we find everything that was brought up in that debate fell on deaf ears, this is very disheartening, considering the time and effort people put into the last debate. Promises were made by prominent people regarding change but yet we find ourselves back at the starting line once again. No offence to the mod who started this tread but in my opinion it just shows how little we've moved on

to be honest mods don't need the community to tell them whats wrong with Airsoft on boards they all ready know and they continuously decide not to act, this blatantly shows a fear of change. The evidence is in the day to day activity after our long debate what happens only another two mods are brought in and the first time the community hears of it is when they are already brought in. Sorry but to me the way this was done after such a long debate regarding this exact subject was very poor and smacked of an underlying message to the community as a whole that they were indifferent to what we had to say and that they would continue with their own agenda regardless.

Does this remind anyone of a similar situation, a small group of people governing a populous without a vote of confidence....and even with that knowledge still refuse to change or step down....

and we'll do it all again in another 6 months time...

OzCam

Thanks Steve, deleting the line was enough, you don't have to don sackcloth and ashes on my account.

A few examples of what I mean by transparency (in addition to the points in my linked post, some of which have been addressed):

• An explanation of the process for appointing mods
• Telling people that their complaint is in a que/invalid/in process
• More use of infractions
• If a mod has been told to implement some policy, or tighten up on something, then everyone should be told – and not leave it to one mod to take the user backlash about it.

I realise that the infraction system involves more work, but keeping track of someone's warnings can only be a good thing. If someone clocks up enough infractions then they'll get banned, just like a Driving Licence. This should be automatic, if it isn't already. And it's both fair and visible.

A short comment about bullying. Interactions between individual users, or users & mods, are fine. When it involves several people in a sustained campaign of complaining about one individual over an extended period, then it's bullying.

I'd really like to hear from former mods of this forum about why they stopped. In one or two cases we know why – RL issues like changing jobs – but we've gone through several in the last two+ years and it seems to me to be well above average.

There are also a couple of things I'd like to see tightened up on, but I might PM Steve about those later. Telling people to RTFS is one

o1s1n

OzCam wrote: »

[*]An explanation of the process for appointing mods

The current moderators look over the userbase and select someone who they think will make a good addition to the team.

It's not left open to a public vote as just because someone is popular on a forum does not automatically make them a good moderator.

OzCam wrote: »

[*]Telling people that their complaint is in a que/invalid/in process

The problem with this is that the moderators are doing this job for free. If they were paid employees of boards.ie working at it full time then this would really be great. But they're not. As a former moderator of this forum, I know the sheer volume of reported posts this place drags in. Unfortunately the above would just not be possible. It's hard enough to even read through all the reports sometimes, nevermind replying to every single person about their complaint.

OzCam wrote: »

I'd really like to hear from former mods of this forum about why they stopped. In one or two cases we know why – RL issues like changing jobs – but we've gone through several in the last two+ years and it seems to me to be well above average.

In all honesty, this place is a massive pain in the arse to moderate. It was a pain in the arse a few years ago back in the 'good oul days' and we have our needles_two trolls and the likes, but it's become an even bigger pain in the arse since all that died down.

There's also a particular level of nastyness after creeping amongst some of the users and I'm just not willing to deal with it anymore. Behind all the public dramaz are hundreds upon hundreds of ranting pms. There's a time when you just have to say enough is enough - let someone else sort it out.

Anyway - I really wish the current team all the best with this. There was a fantastic community spirit in here once (And no, I'm not wearing rose tinted glasses :pac:). It would really be great to see that return.

Lemming

OzCam wrote: »

A few examples of what I mean by transparency (in addition to the points in my linked post, some of which have been addressed):

• An explanation of the process for appointing mods
• Telling people that their complaint is in a que/invalid/in process
• More use of infractions
• If a mod has been told to implement some policy, or tighten up on something, then everyone should be told – and not leave it to one mod to take the user backlash about it.

I realise that the infraction system involves more work, but keeping track of someone's warnings can only be a good thing. If someone clocks up enough infractions then they'll get banned, just like a Driving Licence. This should be automatic, if it isn't already. And it's both fair and visible.

Regarding the process for selecting new mods; it's really quite an anti-climax and you'll all just go "Is that it? ffs, where are the umpa loomas and the madness?".

Any selection process typically goes like this; a mod will throw out a suggestion for new moderators for whatever reason (standing down, not enough mods for activity, etc.) and the Admins will be kept in the loop as well. Mods will suggest names amongst themselves along with reasons why/against a name. Approved names will get offered the position and if they accept then that's it, admins get notified and mod powers granted shortly thereafter.

Providing a discourse of names and reasons against, for public consumption after a mod has been selected is asking for trouble imo, for what should be obvious reasons.

Edit: And as O1s1n has mentioned, public votes/volunteering are a bad idea. If someone comes looking for modship, they probably shouldn't get it.

As for infractions ...... I used to hate giving infractions. Why? Because often they'd be just as much work as if you'd actually just banned a user, since users frequently perceived it as some sort of "slight" and/or just as bad as a ban because it's an "official notice".

My personal take on it was if there was behaviour that was skirting the line, then just PM the user to tell them to tone it down. As soon as any sort of "official notice" gets sent, it's often very much a case of "in for a penny, in for a pound" and at that point just ban their @rse, since any earlier PM had no effect.

As for the automatic ban thing for infractions, that exists already. Once you go above a certain threshold (infractions subside with time), you get an automatic ban. But of course, see my comment above regarding "in for a penny, in for a pound".

I'd really like to hear from former mods of this forum about why they stopped. In one or two cases we know why – RL issues like changing jobs – but we've gone through several in the last two+ years and it seems to me to be well above average.

No comment, beyond the obvious changing job/moving country. And I doubt I'll ever commit to written word either.

TheDoc

OzCam wrote: »

A short comment about bullying. Interactions between individual users, or users & mods, are fine. When it involves several people in a sustained campaign of complaining about one individual over an extended period, then it's bullying.

I find that sensationalist, and an easy defence card to play.

Perhaps our perception of bullying is different, but that hasn't been going on here.

What has been going on granted, is the same people having to bring up the same **** over and over and over again.

Steve

Lemming wrote: »

Regarding the process for selecting new mods; it's really quite an anti-climax and you'll all just go "Is that it? ffs, where are the umpa loomas and the madness?".

Any selection process typically goes like this; a mod will throw out a suggestion for new moderators for whatever reason (standing down, not enough mods for activity, etc.) and the Admins will be kept in the loop as well. Mods will suggest names amongst themselves along with reasons why/against a name. Approved names will get offered the position and if they accept then that's it, admins get notified and mod powers granted shortly thereafter.

Just a quick correction on that as the process has changed somewhat since you left.

Mods can suggest candidates and highlight a need for more hands on deck. After that, it goes up the chain and we've no further say in it.

Gatling

There is no silver bullet that can fix the problems on here ,
it extends outside this forum and into the community

TheDoc

Gatling wrote: »

There is no silver bullet that can fix the problems on here ,
it extends outside this forum and into the community

I'd like you to elaborate that more please.

I'm getting the increasing feeling that posters here are using " its a witch hunt" to deflect from the situation and nullify the arguement.

This is definitely not the case, how exactly is the problem NOT based on boards, it baffles me, it really does. How exactly can we improve policy,process and moderator practices on this forum, from outside the forum?

Danin

this is just getting ridiculous and to be honest a bit tedious I mean it's the same people posting the same S**t and for what ??? no offence lads but

we all know the problems
we've all spoken about them in length
lets not go down this road again seriously lads whats the point, if boards wants to know whats wrong with the community, why don't they stop asking the same questions and start listening to the answers.


lets cut the crap and let all sides be completely honest with each other for once
to be honest it looks to me like some people just want to dissect everything intellectually and in depth WHY.... there's no need.
its been done to death..
why have rules that obviously don't work with the community and then try and force feed them regardless.

as for the problem extending outside the forum well that's a different matter and really if it is the case it's not relevant to this discussion.

Inari

@Danin: Defeatism achieves nothing except for shielding you against bitter disappointment at having failed. If you do not try, you have already failed. Where is the sense in not trying? You've tried before, it fell on deaf ears apparently. New mods, why not try again? I'm sure before you posted people had tried before - there is always a point to trying, and that point is idealism. It is worth trying to make a difference, and definitely more so than complaining about the lack of change.

One of the problems I have seen lately is a fear of being wrong - I don't really understand it. People seem to be afraid to post. I've lost count of the amount of times I have been corrected on stuffl; just recently I thoguht Magpul were the OEM of the PTS Masada, and puding showed me differently...now I know, and can help others. But there seems to be a lack of that - not much of a willingness to try and learn, and to try and help others.

PS: To lighten the tone a little; just want to shout out to the people who I've seen make the conscious effort to help, and post good content - DeBurca, NakedDex, Leftyflip, Lemming, Puding, Thermo, Doc, and many many others. If this place is to survive, and be worth changing, then we as a community need to show why to bother, by instigating the change at an individual level - and it needs to start now.