[Feedback] What's wrong with the Airsoft forum? How do we fix it?

Dav

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and here's what I can mostly gather from it (and previous discussions).

Point 1)
There are 2 communities in play here. Most people belong to both, but not everyone.

The first community is what I'll call the Airsoft Players community - the lads who are friends with one another, who regularly meet up to skirmish, etc.

The second is the Airsoft Forum community - that is the people who use the Boards.ie Airsoft forum and its various subforums to talk to one another online. This is the one that the Mods, CMods, Admins and us in the office have a responsibility to.

The first community is one that is boisterous and its members will have the craic and slag each other off and all that. That's all good - they're friends. However, such things do not translate well to text only discussion on an internet forum. If I am a person interested in Airsoft and I find Boards after searching for info, I have no way of knowing that Joe Soap and John Smith are best buds when I see one calling the other a "cuntlog". I'll look at it and say "well either all airsofters are abusive numpties or this is a completely closed shop and I don't want to join in. Neither of those 2 outcomes is good for the sport or for the forum.

This is the crux of a LOT of issues on Boards.ie. We are HUGE. We turn up in a lot of searches for almost any subject you can think of in Ireland. We need to set guidelines that everyone can understand and that can say "yea, that makes sense" and not being abusive to people (even if they're your friend) because it simply doesn't come across that way when you're not in on the joke. This is a site that caters for 2 million people a month and it is vital that there are core guidelines in place that run throughout the whole site so that there is some cohesion to how it all works as an entity.

Point 2)
The moderation of these forums is at loggerheads with the wishes of the community. Which community though? I've seen where people have been abusive, have ignored mod warning or requests and then start whinging when they're pulled on it or when a thread gets closed as it's spiralled off-topic because a couple of people have gotten into a seperate discussion. As far as I'm concerned, this is no brainer stuff, such things have been against Boards.ie rules for a long time. But it seems the mods are trying to apply Boards.ie rules to a group who doesn't feel or realise that these rules apply to them or that thinks they should be exempt from them because they're mostly friends. That is bad for growth as I've said (closed shop forums stagnate and eventually die) and if we allow it for this forum, what's to stop the other 800+ forums asking for this same special exemption? However I do think there's room for improvement in how the Mods go about things here, but I am taking responsibility for not helping out as much as I should, so if you're going to shout at anyone, shout at me. I'll quote DeVore in saying "Boards.ie is not and can not be black and white, it exists in shades of grey."

But this group that keeps saying that this forum keeps going down hill etc needs to wrap its head around the fact that this is not strictly a forum for them. It is not about certain teams or retailers or whatever. It's not a place to talk with your mates about whatever. It's a place for discussing the sport of Airsoft. It's great that so many people here are real life friends and get to meet on the field so regularly. It's also great that we've been able to balance the commercial element with the community element thanks in no small part to the help from the retailers and site owners who are just as much of the community as the players. This forum is not owned by anyone with a vested interest in the sport but we want nothing but growth for it because that's a good thing and because as long as the retailers who pay for a thread here do well, we continue to earn from them (and I'm not going to try and ignore the fact that this forum is a revenue generator for us, but that is a world apart from why we have an Airsoft forum - it's merely a bonus).

From the site's point of view, we're happy to provide a place for both of these communities I've mentioned underneath the bigger "airsoft" umbrella. There was a suggestion of a private forum, but I don't want to box the players off and ignore them. I would suggest that we have an area where there can be more of the sorts of interactions you seem to want to engage in where ye can slag each other off and have the craic as friends, but Boards.ie's main Airsoft Forum should not be that place.

Someone mentioned above that in discussions with the DoJ, this forum was mentioned. We've built up a good relationship wioth the DoJ - just ask the Shooting mods. They know all about Boards.ie and take us seriously. However, a forum that's bordering on "friends only" or dare I say it, After Hours, is not going to be taken seriously anymore.

TL;DR
So I am proposing two things from my two main points:

1) Airsoft Players (for want of a better desciption) should be given a seperate area to chat and talk about whatever that is not our main Airsoft discussion forum and that will have a more relaxed athmosphere. There are details that I'll need to work out around this, but as an idea, do people object to it or the reasons why I think it should be created?

2) I want to spend some time with the Mods to make a few changes so that there will be less conflict between them and the members of the Airsoft forums here on Boards.ie

Poccington

Dav wrote: »

1) Airsoft Players (for want of a better desciption) should be given a seperate area to chat and talk about whatever that is not our main Airsoft discussion forum and that will have a more relaxed athmosphere. There are details that I'll need to work out around this, but as an idea, do people object to it or the reasons why I think it should be created?

Isn't that what an Off Topic thread is usually for? I mean, most forums where there's a close group of regular posters usually has an Off Topic thread created.

Now, maybe I'm missing something here but considering this forum has one, why make a completely seperate area just so people can have a ****e talk and a bit of craic... When there's already a thread that caters especially for that?

Poccington

War Machine 539 wrote: »

This is the point, what makes your opinion better than mine? This thread was setup regarding feedback and its been sensored. Its pathetic. Im not going to continue with this discussion, not because what Im saying is unfounded I might add, but because, you as a moderator have a nice little gang around you to step in if it all goes pear shaped for you. You have all the cards. That point no matter how hard you deny it is true. No point in fighting a losing battle. Im going to bide my time on this one!

I hope you manage to fix this lads, honestly I do. See you on the fields.

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Just because it fits the Charter doesnt make it right. Impartiality is something that does not exist on Boards.

Incase you missed it, I'm a Mod in the Military forum. Therefore, my Mod powers don't extend anywhere beyond there, so in turn any other forum I post in I'm doing so as a regular user.

In my very first post on this thread, I stated I was posting as a user that pops into the forum now and again. In turn, I'd appreciate it if you didn't try and act like I'm here to back Mods up or other Mods will back me up or that I have "all the cards". Also, not once did I even attempt to say my opinion was better than yours.

So your point is ridiculously untrue.

Horse84

Dav wrote: »

Point 1)
There are 2 communities in play here. Most people belong to both, but not everyone.

The first community is what I'll call the Airsoft Players community - the lads who are friends with one another, who regularly meet up to skirmish, etc.

The second is the Airsoft Forum community - that is the people who use the Boards.ie Airsoft forum and its various subforums to talk to one another online. This is the one that the Mods, CMods, Admins and us in the office have a responsibility to.

The first community is one that is boisterous and its members will have the craic and slag each other off and all that. That's all good - they're friends. However, such things do not translate well to text only discussion on an internet forum. If I am a person interested in Airsoft and I find Boards after searching for info, I have no way of knowing that Joe Soap and John Smith are best buds when I see one calling the other a "cuntlog". I'll look at it and say "well either all airsofters are abusive numpties or this is a completely closed shop and I don't want to join in. Neither of those 2 outcomes is good for the sport or for the forum.

Now we're getting somewhere, that's exactly what i was trying to illustrate in my post last night but dav put it a lot better than i ever could.
I think your proposal for a seperate forum for airsoft players definitely merits a discussion. Like you said most of the players know each other in real life and there is more scope for a more free discussion.

defenderdude

Poccington wrote: »

Isn't that what an Off Topic thread is usually for? I mean, most forums where there's a close group of regular posters usually has an Off Topic thread created.

Now, maybe I'm missing something here but considering this forum has one, why make a completely seperate area just so people can have a ****e talk and a bit of craic... When there's already a thread that caters especially for that?

That's where the crux lies for many disenfranchised contributors - I think it was felt the OT Thread was being modded excessively, unfairly - posts deleted etc etc. It grew from there...

I could be wrong tho.

Poccington

defenderdude wrote: »

That's where the crux lies for many disenfranchised contributors - I think it was felt the OT Thread was being modded excessively, unfairly - posts deleted etc etc. It grew from there...

I could be wrong tho.

Well then perhaps that may be the path to travel down as far as being allowed have a bit of craic with each other... Try reach an agreement between Users and Mods on how the Off Topic thread should be handled? Obviously, I won't pretend to know the full story behind what people view is wrong with the OT thread as I wouldn't visit it as much as the rest of the lads on here do.

I mean, I think Steve has shown a willingness to at least attempt to reach a compromise between Boards policy and the needs of the community, indeed Dav has too. So it's certainly something that could be hammered out.

Does the forum really need a whole new sub forum just so people can post off topic? Or does it just need to fix the kinks in the Off Topic thread and indeed in the regular threads so Mods don't have to act and users can continue to have the craic?

Dogwatch

I do not agree with a seperate area for those among us who are unhappy with the way the forums are being run.

When signing up to participate and avail of the services of boards.ie, we all signed an agreement to abide by the rules and conditions of service.

A few users are too quick to attack the poster instead of attacking the post and as a result are being dealt with according to the rules to which they have agreed.

If some users are no longer able to fulfill their part of the deal, then they should think about modifing their behaviour and actions or leave boards and go to a forum where their behaviour is welcome..

There has been too much destructive behaviour on these forums recently and users should raise their standards and curb their inclination to lash out too quickly.

Shiva

Dogwatch wrote: »

I do not agree with a seperate area for those among us who are unhappy with the way the forums are being run.

When signing up to participate and avail of the services of boards.ie, we all signed an agreement to abide by the rules and conditions of service.

A few users are too quick to attack the poster instead of attacking the post and as a result are being dealt with according to the rules to which they have agreed.

If some users are no longer able to fulfill their part of the deal, then they should think about modifing their behaviour and actions or leave boards and go to a forum where their behaviour is welcome..

There has been too much destructive behaviour on these forums recently and users should raise their standards and curb their inclination to lash out too quickly.

I'm not sure I agree with the concept either, and I'd have to have a think about it....but I'd just like to point out something if I may, Dogwatch.

This thread, and the recent complaints, are not the result of unruly users complaining they've been slapped down by a moderator. No-one is arguing that bad behaviour should go unsanctioned.

These problems started, and forgive me for sounding aggressive, when moderator(s) acted inappropriately, by sneakily deleting posts, locking threads for no reason, and generally over-stepping their bounds. These are why people are annoyed. I'm also getting a bit tired of it being alluded to that the moderators are being bullied by those of us who aren't happy with their moderation - I didn't hear anyone accusing the moderators of being bullies when they deleted posts without explanation, never mind without even a token notification.

There hasn't been any significant increase in unruly behaviour that I'm aware of lately, so I'm not sure were these comments about people not wanting to obey rules are coming from - I've seen it from a few users over the past few days, and frankly, I think its a strawman argument.

In fact the only blatant refusal to obey rules I can think of lately was my own refusal to toe the line in the off-topic forum and stop discussing the problems with moderation in public when I was told to. And I'm glad I didn't - its resulted in the issues being taken seriously. If theres a punishment due for that I'll gladly accept it, and consider it a fair price for finally getting something done.

Steve

Thanks for the input Dav, very much appreciated.

It has, however, left me a little confused and somewhat belittled.

Has the matter been taken over by a higher authority now or can I still pursue my efforts to resolve this?

sharpy2010

hey steve,
me again ive been keeping an eye on this since my previous comment that i received a very satisfactory comment from lemming.I believe that dav is merely giving his 2cents and his assisitance. I dont think he is belittling you.

but in saying that i would agree in what he says on a few points and regarding some things like being impartial i do believe you are being impartial and you were getting some flak for it and being new i think that i may be in impartial that im still getting used ti this forum on a whole. I have never seen any other discussions on these type of topics but also impartial in that every person who has posted on this thread i have never met in person or on the field and find it very unlikely that i will.

as regards having a private forum i would say that might make it difficult for other users like myself to crack that nut open and get into the boards/airsoft community(which is what it actually is no matter how many people try to argue that fact). I could spend hours every evening going through discussion threads to gain knowledge to partake in the discussions on boards and having a private forum for the long term members is like creating a caste system of noobs to veterans!!!! ie on my studies:p:D I have seen posters say things like I got that from shop that cant be mentioned!? or Im delighted that certain user got banned! and even in this thread: ertain moderators and we all know who!! I can honestly say I dont Know the answer to any of these,now im not gonna ask on thread an answer to this even though it irks my curiosity(but if someone wants to pm me these answers feel free:D), I mer4ely mention them to tie in with dav in the new guys looking in from the outside and not being in on the joke so to speak.

I know i gave a gripe about some bit of moderating but on a whole i do agree with some of the posters when they say there is nothing wrong withy the forum just trhe people in it. As with all things in life the one thing any environment hates is change-If its not broken dont fix it- yet still environments evolve to use a phrase from the marines i believe "Adapt and Overcome".

steve i do believe this is a great thread with many great intentions from yourself and something comes from it. I wish you the best of luck in the future and your time as a mod. andyour fellow moderators and seeing as its that time of year I will also wish you "A Very Happy Christmas and A Prosperous New Year":D:D

yours thankfully,
Sharpy

DeVore

Absolutely not Steve, I've been being kept informed because there is a genuine concern for airsoft, we all have a kind of soft spot for the forum because of it's history on boards and consistently I've been told "Steve's playing a blinder".
We're all trying to assist in finding a solution, Dav too...

Sorry, I'll go back to sleeping in my rocking chair but wanted to make that point.

DeV.

senordingdong

Dav wrote: »

1) Airsoft Players (for want of a better desciption) should be given a seperate area to chat and talk about whatever that is not our main Airsoft discussion forum and that will have a more relaxed athmosphere. There are details that I'll need to work out around this, but as an idea, do people object to it or the reasons why I think it should be created?

2) I want to spend some time with the Mods to make a few changes so that there will be less conflict between them and the members of the Airsoft forums here on Boards.ie

I too don't think there should be a private, largely because there are is a moxy load of methods for users to chat unsupervised, one of which being the existing OT thread.

Furthermore, I think it could be counter productive to the community and tantamount to just pushing the dis-enfranchised aside.
As Shiva mentioned, the large part of the dissatifaction was with mods acting inappropriately...so with that in mind, I would welcome your second proposition.
Though I still think there is alot to be said for having mods from outside the airsoft scene.

Danin

Steve, I personally think your playing a blinder and you indirectly promote the old style of moderating we were used to. I also understand that you cannot be expected to have all the answers all the time but to have you here is like a breath of fresh air and I for one see a glimmer of hope going forward.

given his experience in a similar area would it be feasible for Poccington to possibly pop in from time to time as a "part time moderator so to speak". As he also seems to have a level headed approach.

I don't think anyone is here merely for the sake of having a go. I do honestly believe users and moderators/boards staff have the greater good at heart. I also think this whole situation stems from a style of moderation which was implemented and was completely alien to the users. Due to this we seen the backlash of certain long standing users frustrations which as I see it is the minority people refer to.

Just in case you are not aware of it, the biggest issue was certain recent moderators took it upon themselves to both delete and alter posts with no indication to anyone that they had done so. Therefore someone reading back on the thread would read the reminisce of what was left and get a completely different context from it. In some cases this looked to be done deliberately as the post could have been just as easily deleted rather than altered. I'd also like to add at this point none of the rules had been broken in these posts at the time.
I never seen any of the more established mods do this nor had anyone else and when we asked why it was done regularly to more than one user the answer was "I hadn't got the time to sign my name to it". When asked what rules were broken for these alterations we were met with silence. This caused everyone to backtrack on each post they gave to ensure their opinion on a given subject was not tampered with. In fairness this just doesn't wash or add up which then caused more frustration.

I'm of the opinion that once one issue is resolved the other will dissipate.
I can understand that moderators and boards need to seen to be taking a united front but like all walks of life there is only so much time you can deadicate to carrying someone who doesn't thow the line.
It's a dangerous situation when the flock so to speak is docile and the moderator go's "trolling" for something to moderate

Shiva

Danin wrote: »

Steve, I personally think your playing a blinder and you indirectly promote the old style of moderating we were used to.

Yeah, I just want to give that a +1 - excellent job so far. I've been speaking to a few lads and we've decided to keep him - Dev....demod him from hitchhikers and adverts willya ? We dont want to share him with anyone else - he's ours now

Danin

I'd also like to ask that seeing as we find ourselves at that time of year of "Good will to all men" that Doc and the others be given a chance,

I'm not saying what they did should be belittled in anyway or questioning why they were sent on their holidays but they are passionate about the sport and this forum and sometimes that passion can manifest itself in a self harming way.

but to be honest it's Christmas and the place just wont be the same without them.:(

Daz1214

just a quick note to say that i agree with the rest of the lads in that Steve has done a great job so far. Nobody disagrees with the rules and regulations of Boards and its great to see transparent moderation being used.

Hopefully the forum will regain its mojo in the next little while as it would be a shame to see it die a death.

Keep up the good work lads

Daz

Steve

The time has come.

This thread has served us well, provided excitement, entertainment and a lot of great feedback on the forum.

I'd like to thank and commend everyone for posting their thoughts here and also those who sent me pm's to give more detailed feedback that they thought was not appropriate for public view (I assure you, strictest confidence will remain).

Over the coming days, I'll attempt to distil this thread into a list of headings that we need to address.

Once I've made a first pass at that, I'll start a new thread to define what needs to be done and to prioritise the order in which we address it.

Given the experience of this thread, I'll also attempt to define some rules under which the discussion can be held, both fairly and on-topically. The feed-forward model which was discussed at length and finally agreed upon to be a good way of progressing sitewide issues is the best option I can think of for now so I'll attempt to use that as a basis here.

Thanks again Airsoft, I promise I'll do my best for you.

Steve.