Vegetarians, Vegans...

seamus · 12-11-2010 4:10pm

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

They can be healthy.....but any vegetarian I've ever met was either emaciated or obese

That's actually funny, because anyone I've ever known who was militant about their meat, i.e. the "I cannot live without eating six cows a week" type, was either emaciated or obese. Maybe something to do with food obsessiveness.

bronte · 12-11-2010 4:10pm

Guill wrote: »

Actually i'm not bothered, it's a question based on a lack of understanding.

Okay...how about just accepting other people's choices then?

I'm assuming it has no direct effect on your life?

sensibleken · 12-11-2010 4:15pm

Degsy wrote: »

Well why are vegetarians always so weak and sickly-looking?

i was waiting for that.

we are not.

Im a big strong boy who never gets ill apart from hangovers.

jackiebaron wrote: »

I'd like to see you pick a fight with a Shao-Lin monk

or a gladiator

--Kaiser-- · 12-11-2010 4:16pm

noxqs wrote: »

Even hunter / gathering societies didnt get much meat. It takes alot of effort to catch prey reliably.

Actually, probably half of their diet was animal based
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1g.shtml

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/3/682

Modern hunter-gatherers take 30 -60 % of their food from animals.

Irish Guitarist · 12-11-2010 4:16pm

Guill wrote: »

You reject your natural place in the food chain.
Why?

If you're so concerned about your place in the food chain I take it you're against mosquito repellent. Surely humans are tampering with the natural order of things by not allowing mosquitoes to drink our tasty blood?

ScumLord · 12-11-2010 4:18pm

jackiebaron wrote: »

What kind of a stupid fücking statement is that? I pointed out that the molecular makeup of larger animals is harder to breakdown in the human digestive system than smaller animals. It's got nothing to do with eating them whole FFS. And why are you bringing up how animals are treated? Where did I even mention that?

Because the end result of you assuming it's better to eat small animals is that those small animals will be intensively farmed. So you've really replaced one negative with another.

jackiebaron wrote: »

He sees onions from China, apples from Brazil, mushrooms from the Netherlands....ergo none of these things grow in Ireland.

QED :rolleyes:

It is possible to grow them here but you wont find much of them from Ireland in your local supermarket and when you do it'll be at certain times of the year, not year round.

noxqs wrote: »

1. Meat perish extremely fast without constant refrigeration

Not exactly true, the best meat is always hung for 4 weeks. There's countless ways of preserving meat that we don't use any more due to refrigeration.

jackiebaron · 12-11-2010 4:18pm

Guill wrote: »

Actually i'm not bothered, it's a question based on a lack of understanding.

If you are truly interested then why aren't you also respectful in your curiosity instead of making adolescent jokes about rabbits during the Famine and jibes about "rejecting one's place in the food chain"? Why are you making insulting and puerile comments about people having too much money so they can "reject meat". Don't spew out this locker-room bluster and then patronise people by saying you're truly interested in knowing more about their dietary habits.

itsallaboutheL · 12-11-2010 4:19pm

jackiebaron wrote: »

Last time I looked in the supermarket a slab of meat was a hell of a lot more expensive than a few bags of rice, beans and onions.

That's becasue meat is food... and rice beans and onions are stuff that goes with food to make the plate look pretty.

El_Dangeroso · 12-11-2010 4:21pm

noxqs wrote: »

Even hunter / gathering societies didnt get much meat. It takes alot of effort to catch prey reliably.

Hahaha! Completely and totally wrong.

From:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/3/682

Of the 229 hunter-gatherer societies listed in the Ethnographic Atlas, 58% (n = 133) obtained 66% of their subsistence from animal foods in contrast with 4% (n = 8) of societies that obtain 66% of their subsistence from gathered plant foods...

Hunter-gatherers eat a LOT of meat. They might not be downing bison every day (they are incredibly skilled hunters so it's actually not that difficult for them) but they also gather insects, lizards, shellfish which are available abundantly.

And get this, they get less cancer, heart-disease and diabetes than any vegetarian population you care to mention. There is not one vegetarian hunter-gatherer tribe on the planet, ever think there might be a reason why?

Jim · 12-11-2010 4:22pm

Guill wrote: »

Nobody has actually given a reason for why they became vegetarian yet?

The reason I'm vegetarian is because I think it's morally repugnant how animals are (unnecessarily) cruelly treated for our nutritional needs when we can get all these needs from elsewhere.

If an animal is reared in a responsible fashion and then slaughtered for it's meat I have no problem with that, as long as it was given the chance to have a rich and full life. I'm certainly not labeling all farms etc are cruel death houses, but for me personally it's too difficult to source every bit of meat I eat so I just don't bother at all.

I don't really care what other people do or what their choices are. I'm don't eat meat for my own reasons.

Degsy · 12-11-2010 4:23pm

sensibleken wrote: »

or a gladiator

I am willing to bet there were very few vegetarian gladiators..or hunters,or warriors or anything that took strength and endurance.

Degsy · 12-11-2010 4:25pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

There is not one vegetarian hunter-gatherer tribe on the planet

Thats not strictly true..you have the Crusties..they Hunt for drugs and Gather the dole.

Irish Guitarist · 12-11-2010 4:26pm

Degsy wrote: »

I am willing to bet there were very few vegetarian gladiators..or hunters,or warriors or anything that took strength and endurance.

You're right. Vegetarians tend not to hunt.

sensibleken · 12-11-2010 4:26pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

There is not one vegetarian hunter-gatherer tribe on the planet, ever think there might be a reason why?

so? they dont have Ipods either? it doesnt mean we should all throw out our ipods.

what other people do or what humans have done in the past is irrelevant.

sensibleken · 12-11-2010 4:29pm

Degsy wrote: »

I am willing to bet there were very few vegetarian gladiators..or hunters,or warriors or anything that took strength and endurance.

nope. gladiators were vegan. they ate crap loads of barley and other bulk.

theres a lot of information on the web about it, it is reletively new information.

edit: http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=7153

plus i have never lost a fight in my life

ever rock climbed sea cliffs for 3 straight hours? thats endurance. me and vegan mates have, plus some meat eaters. not much difference in ability

you now owe me money

El_Dangeroso · 12-11-2010 4:37pm

sensibleken wrote: »

so? they dont have Ipods either? it doesnt mean we should all throw out our ipods.

what other people do or what humans have done in the past is irrelevant.

What? What kind of stupid logic is that? Of course how human's eat 'in the wild' so to speak is relevant. There's this thing called evolution you see. I always find it so funny that we know what other species are supposed to eat.

No one would ever suggest that some cats are naturally vegan and some are carnivores. No, its only humans who are such precious little snowflakes that are not subject to the same biological forces as other species.

If anything, being vegan implies a severe detachment from the way that nature actually works.

thisguy · 12-11-2010 4:41pm

sensibleken wrote: »

so? they dont have Ipods either? it doesnt mean we should all throw out our ipods.

what other people do or what humans have done in the past is irrelevant.

Wait what? You eat iPods?..crazy veggies

sensibleken · 12-11-2010 4:44pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

What? What kind of stupid logic is that? Of course how human's eat 'in the wild' so to speak is relevant. There's this thing called evolution you see. I always find it so funny that we know what other species are supposed to eat.

No one would ever suggest that some cats are naturally vegan and some are carnivores. No, its only humans who are such precious little snowflakes that are not subject to the same biological forces as other species.

If anything, being vegan implies a severe detachment from the way that nature actually works.

youre saying that because hunter gatherers eat a certain way that should somehow relates to what we do today, in ireland.

evolution has nothing to do with it. personal choice has. I choose not to eat meat. im perfectly healthy because of it. you can eat meat if you want i couldnt give a toss. but because some tribes in borneo hunt meat has got nothing to do with you going to the supermarket and picking sausages off a shelf.

being vegan is no detatchment from nature. if you want to be logical then first your going to have to define nature, then your going to have to extend that arguement for anything that deviates from that opinion as being illogical.

off ya go

Pawpad666 · 12-11-2010 4:45pm

I'll just leave this here.......vegetarian.:p

Bye now.

Shenshen · 12-11-2010 4:46pm

Guill wrote: »

As a meat loving man i cannot come to grips with the idea of rejecting meat for ever!

Fish, pork, Beef, Fowl its all too tasty. I have even started raising my own meat because it is even nicer than the supermarket sh1t. Dont get me wrong, i adore my fruit and veg too but a life without meat is my idea of hell.

So a question for the veggies/Vegans;

You reject your natural place in the food chain.
Why?

(feel free to rant and rave, i think veggies are mad already!)

On close inspection, I find that I reject most of my "natural places". Natural doesn't equal desirable, or even good for you.

The reason why I stopped eating meat was an ethical one, I simply do not want an animal to suffer so that I can eat, if there are millions of other options available to feed myself.

ScumLord · 12-11-2010 4:48pm

sensibleken wrote: »

youre saying that because hunter gatherers eat a certain way that should somehow relates to what we do today, in ireland.

evolution has nothing to do with it. personal choice has.

That personal choice is an educated and well funded luxury that most people don't have.

sensibleken · 12-11-2010 4:50pm

ScumLord wrote: »

That personal choice is an educated and well funded luxury that most people don't have.

well funded?

i spend less than 25 quid a week on food. being veggie is cheap as chips (cooked in vegetable oil obviously)

and thanks. im glad someone thinks im educated;)

Shenshen · 12-11-2010 4:51pm

baltimore sun wrote: »

Every veggie should look at that pic

I went to a veggie's house/dinner party one night and they fed us all veggie food, when it was my turn to host a dinner party i cooked steaks, they were insulted so I told them a load of us were insulted that they forced veggie food on us.

Well, I once went to a house party and they served celery.
So I made sure to find out what they couldn't stand, and then invited them over and cooked just that.
When they found out, the called me a pillock, but I think they deserved it for forcing celery on me.

:rolleyes:

ScumLord · 12-11-2010 4:52pm

sensibleken wrote: »

well funded?

i spend less than 25 quid a week on food. being veggie is cheap as chips (cooked in vegetable oil obviously)

and thanks. im glad someone thinks im educated;)

You come from a country that's educated and (up until recently) well funded, the environment you grew up in allowed you to make the choice, in many other countries your lucky to eat, there's no choice about it you eat what's available and be happy you got it. That's what I meant by an educated and well funded choice.

El_Dangeroso · 12-11-2010 4:53pm

sensibleken wrote: »

youre saying that because hunter gatherers eat a certain way that should somehow relates to what we do today, in ireland.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Despite our clothes and cars and ipods we are still fundamentally animals.

sensibleken wrote: »

evolution has nothing to do with it. personal choice has. I choose not to eat meat. im perfectly healthy because of it. you can eat meat if you want i couldnt give a toss. but because some tribes in borneo hunt meat has got nothing to do with you going to the supermarket and picking sausages off a shelf.

Great, well if it's all about personal choice I'm going to eat nothing but waste paper. Oh, what do you mean we don't have the digestive system to digest waste paper? I thought it was all about personal choice?

Don't get me wrong, I actually haven't a single issue with what you eat or don't eat, but don't pretend that the natural human diet does not contain meat because it does.

sensibleken wrote: »

being vegan is no detatchment from nature. if you want to be logical then first your going to have to define nature, then your going to have to extend that arguement for anything that deviates from that opinion as being illogical.

off ya go

Yes it is. Animals are killed in nature by far less 'humane' methods than in a slaughterhouse, throats are ripped out and the animal dies in excruciating pain, bleeding to death. It's not some lovely disney movie where they lie down in a meadow while rabbits sing around them. This is the detachment that I'm talking about, the fundamental principal that EVERYTHING in nature kills a living thing in order to live.

Shenshen · 12-11-2010 4:55pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

What? What kind of stupid logic is that? Of course how human's eat 'in the wild' so to speak is relevant. There's this thing called evolution you see. I always find it so funny that we know what other species are supposed to eat.

No one would ever suggest that some cats are naturally vegan and some are carnivores. No, its only humans who are such precious little snowflakes that are not subject to the same biological forces as other species.

If anything, being vegan implies a severe detachment from the way that nature actually works.

You know, humans evolved to live to about 30-40 years of age, on average.
But we went ahead and researched and invented medication, and vacinations, and found more nutricious sources of food, and now we live to about 70 on average.

DEFINITELY not natural, but you rarely hear people ranting about us living longer than we should. So why do you feel "natural" is a good arguement when it comes to somebody else's choice of food?

Jim · 12-11-2010 4:55pm

ScumLord wrote: »

You come from a country that's educated and (up until recently) well funded, the environment you grew up in allowed you to make the choice, in many other countries your lucky to eat, there's no choice about it you eat what's available and be happy you got it. That's what I meant by an educated and well funded choice.

You can say that about any lifestyle choice.

But you're right. Imo vegetarians and vegans should only be as such if it's totally practical for them to be as such.

Shenshen · 12-11-2010 4:58pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Yes it is. Animals are killed in nature by far less 'humane' methods than in a slaughterhouse, throats are ripped out and the animal dies in excruciating pain, bleeding to death. It's not some lovely disney movie where they lie down in a meadow while rabbits sing around them. This is the detachment that I'm talking about, the fundamental principal that EVERYTHING in nature kills a living thing in order to live.

There are things you have control over and things you don't have control over.
We don't kill of old people because in nature, they would slowly starve to death when their teeth fall out. And I don't see why I should pay for people to kill animals just because other animals out in the wild suffer as they die.

sensibleken · 12-11-2010 5:00pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Great, well if it's all about personal choice I'm going to eat nothing but waste paper. Oh, what do you mean we don't have the digestive system to digest waste paper? I thought it was all about personal choice?

go right ahead

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I actually haven't a single issue with what you eat or don't eat, but don't pretend that the natural human diet does not contain meat because it does.
.

ah the 'because it does' arguement. thats me told. I never said anything about what the natural diet is. Cake is not part of a natural diet but i eat that too. do you forgo?

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Yes it is. Animals are killed in nature by far less 'humane' methods than in a slaughterhouse, throats are ripped out and the animal dies in excruciating pain, bleeding to death. It's not some lovely disney movie where they lie down in a meadow while rabbits sing around them. This is the detachment that I'm talking about, the fundamental principal that EVERYTHING in nature kills a living thing in order to live.

grand. veggies dont kill animals in nature either.

Jim · 12-11-2010 5:00pm

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Yes it is. Animals are killed in nature by far less 'humane' methods than in a slaughterhouse, throats are ripped out and the animal dies in excruciating pain, bleeding to death. It's not some lovely disney movie where they lie down in a meadow while rabbits sing around them. This is the detachment that I'm talking about, the fundamental principal that EVERYTHING in nature kills a living thing in order to live.

The difference is we have a moral conscious, animals don't.

Vegetarians, Vegans...

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