Students will be forced to pay 2,500 reg fees (Indo)

ferrete

listen it should be fees for all or free for everyone none of this grant crap
i no students with parents driving mercs new audis and landcruisers an getting the grant. and where others are working day and night and having their study stuffer and never going out wit no grant as their parents are in debt etc and have to pay their own way this is a joke free for all or grant for no1

Dudess

hotmail.com wrote: »

Is second level essential? Perhaps up to the age of 16, after that I'm not so sure.

I wonder how many of the opponents of this potential increase went to private secondary schools?

A lot, no doubt. I do find that ironic: willingness to fork out for private school fees/tuition centres/grinds, but outrage at third level fees.

No, the leaving cert isn't essential if you want to do an apprenticeship/work in some sectors like retail (although not across the retail board) and manufacturing.

Little Acorn

Aren't we always being told though, that a third level degree is essential these days?

Sheeps

Don't give a ****. Not a student anymore.

Dudess

ferrete wrote: »

listen it should be fees for all or free for everyone none of this grant crap

Why is it crap? It's essential for some.

i no students with parents driving mercs new audis and landcruisers an getting the grant. and where others are working day and night and having their study stuffer and never going out wit no grant as their parents are in debt etc and have to pay their own way

Well more stringent means testing would (in theory anyway) eliminate the likes of the above. I can't see how your recommendation of fees across the board or no fees across the board would be fairer...

maninasia

gurramok wrote: »

Guess the following are scum too? :eek:



3,000 is not enough to charge for, it should be alot higher. In the UK, you have to pay up to 30kstg for some medical courses. http://www.qmul.ac.uk/international/feesfinance/

Some things never change, as usual the hard working families get done and dolers and people who hide taxable income get the grant. About time a government backed loan system came in and grants were abolished

Dudess

Little Acorn wrote: »

Aren't we always being told though, that a third level degree is essential these days?

Yeah, we're told it by the likes of career guidance teachers, but it's not really true unless you're working in a sector that actually requires a third level qualification - many sectors value work experience though over qualifications.

hotmail.com

I think students can get grants if their parents are retired, regardless of what pension the parent is on (can anyone confirm if this is still the case?). Crazy policy.

The protests are not taken seriously by many students and having seen a few of them, they are usually led by people from the leafy areas of the southside of Dublin. That said, it's important that they protest and are allowed to protest.

maxxie

keeping the population further in debt widening the rat race! SOUND!!

Im joining a tribe in the amazon

Little Acorn

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, we're told it by the likes of career guidance teachers, but it's not really true unless you're working in a sector that actually requires a third level qualification - many sectors value work experience though over qualifications.

Yeah I agree with you there that I think work experience is more likely to be valued over qualifications in a lot of jobs,
but what about people just out of secondary school with no experience?
Job places are so competitive now, that it is highly unlikely that some employer will just take a chance and employ them, when they have others who have a qualification and/or good experience.
They have to get something to improve their employment prospects.

Gavin "shels"

c_man wrote: »

Well if some fees have to be introduced, how would you go about it?

Sort out the grants! Fortunately for me my parents both are employed and pay for my reg fee and I work part-time so that pays for everything else I need, but for a large amount of people I know who get grants live at home and pish all the money away on drinking and the likes.

Sure even better, one of my mates who gets a grant is studying Art, so if he stays in that field after college he probably won't even pay back income tax on his grants he got for 4 years!

maninasia

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, we're told it by the likes of career guidance teachers, but it's not really true unless you're working in a sector that actually requires a third level qualification - many sectors value work experience though over qualifications.

There's not many jobs that don't require a 3rd level education these days, if you don't get it you are ruling yourself out of a lot of things.

coffee_cake

Dudess wrote: »

Fees definitely should be reintroduced I think - but (in an ideal world) with a means testing scale comprising far more layers than last time around. I think the point "Education is a right" is moot. Primary and secondary education are, but not third level, seeing as it's not essential for/not availed of by many, whereas the first two are. Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money as it is.

I think maybe they would stop haemorrhaging money if the standards were set properly high again.
That way there would be fewer students, our reputation for education would rise again, and there is a higher chance that any students there would be there because they want to learn.
I think the problem with fees is that parents will just fork out for kids who are just there to waste time again and I'm not sure that education standards would rise.
I mean they're centres of education, I just don't think turning it into a money issue will solve anything.

Dudess

maninasia wrote: »

There's not many jobs that don't require a 3rd level education these days, if you don't get it you are ruling yourself out of a lot of things.

Still though, a lot of people don't opt for it and instead get trades/apprenticeships, go straight to work, do Fás courses etc. I know a LOT of people who didn't get a third level education.

coffee_cake

maninasia wrote: »

There's not many jobs that don't require a 3rd level education these days, if you don't get it you are ruling yourself out of a lot of things.

That's probably cos it's so commonplace. They used to require LC when uni education was a lot more rare, and now it's BSc required. It'll probably be MSc soon unless we do something about it :rolleyes:

MrMatisse

2.5k? It should be about 10k. Then we will begin to start to fund the universities properly. They are all falling down (UCD) basically. Moaning about such an amount is a joke, basically you are adding 10k to the cost of a degree.

what recession?

Dudess wrote: »

A lot, no doubt. I do find that ironic: willingness to fork out for private school fees/tuition centres/grinds, but outrage at third level fees.

What's your point? I can't remember where I read it, but one of the Government's supposed reasons for a fee hike is the same as yours - that since 20 odd percent of students attended fee paying schools that there's no reason we shouldn't all pay fees for University. Well, if they have a problem with thousands of people attending fee paying schools, then maybe they shouldn't pay the teacher's salaries and subsidise it completely? Private education in Ireland is dirt cheap, of COURSE people are going to avail of it. If you went into a shop and saw something you really wanted for 70% off, you wouldn't buy it, no?

The amount of money this double reg fee will raise is absolutely nothing compared to the defecit and for the damage it will do, it certainly wont help much. How much is spent on Social Welfare every year? Something like 22bn? Well, while UCD are at there studies of how many students attended fee paying education, they might aswell do a study to see how much of the tax payers money is spent on John Player Blues and Dutch Gold. Both studies would be about as relevant as eachother in the scheme of things, because the Government is paying for most of the fee paying education and the other afforementioned items.

At the end of the day, I hope to see fees for all or fees for none. There shouldn't even BE an education grant. The loan system is the best for everyone, it is the only fair way. If people want to pursue further education, then they must pay like everyone else. If they don't have the money for reg fees, accomodation, living expenses, etc, then there should be some facility there to loan them the money until they are in a position to repay it. Some of us are already spending 10-15k a year for our third level education, and we'll be forced to compete with the 'under priveledged' who have everything paid for them in the job market. I certainly don't think there should be no education for such people, but they should have to pay for it at some stage like we are doing now.

I don't know exactly how much the Government will gain from double reg fees, but I don't know why they're not as quick to stop funding fee paying education completely? They're acting as if third level education is a luxury - which, in this day and age is not - but they'll keep bankrolling fee paying schools to the tune of over 100m euro per year? That doesn't make much sense to me. Take that 100m for third level education and let fee paying schools double their fees. Since they're so confident that doubling reg fees will not cause many uni students to drop out, they can be equally as sure that the 20something thousand students paying fees for secondary schools wont drop out.

Caliden

Would get rid of the cretins who don't make it past first year anyway. I say it needs to be more.

I'm a student by the way.

postgrad23

Does anybody know how much the government pay per student in college? I was under the impression it worked out at about €15,000, in which case €3000 is still a small contribution.

postgrad23

what recession? wrote: »

At the end of the day, I hope to see fees for all or fees for none. There shouldn't even BE an education grant. The loan system is the best for everyone, it is the only fair way.

The problem is that the government need the money now, and an interest free loan system, which is definitely the fairest solution, won't pay off for at least four years.

what recession?

postgrad23 wrote: »

The problem is that the government need the money now, and an interest free loan system, which is definitely the fairest solution, won't pay off for at least four years.

But the people in question pay nothing anyway, so why would it not be better to get 12,000 down the line than nothing now or then? :P

postgrad23

what recession? wrote: »

But the people in question pay nothing anyway, so why would it not be better to get 12,000 down the line than nothing now or then? :P

Generally yes but they're just going to demand the money up front because they're not thinking long term. They need the money now.

Odysseus

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

and yet, scumbags in prison will get free education.

Nice deal, don't break the law and pay for college
Break the law and study to your hearts content for free

That is part of the rehab process, sadly one that is not used enough. Having an education provides options, having options may help someone move away from criminality. I know quite a few clients who have work their way through Trinity [post jail, otherwise it's the OU] they have now moved away from criminality. This has nothing to do with uni fees.

Those former clients are now working some earning a lot more than me, which means it has saved the country money as they no longer engage in criminality. Seriously you would like to see this stopped and have us spend more money keeping them locked up?

Mike 1972

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

The only people I'd feel sorry for really are those who are just above the cut-off point for the grant; an extra €1000 per year won't be easy for some.

I know someone who was denied a grant on account of their parents income being 56p/year over the limit

Whats worse is that had one or both of the parents been a farmer/business person on a similar income they could have quite legally have manipulated their income figures to bring themselves within the limit just by discovering their farm/business needed a new lightbulb or somesuch

stepbar

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I know someone who was denied a grant on account of their parents income being 56p/year over the limit

Whats worse is that had one or both of the parents been a farmer/business person on a similar income they could have quite legally have manipulated their income figures to bring themselves within the limit just by discovering their farm/business needed a new lightbulb or somesuch

I know another family where one of the kids got grand aided by the Local County Council but yet the other kid was declined by the VEC.

Sonnenblumen

Dudess wrote: »

Fees definitely should be reintroduced I think - but (in an ideal world) with a means testing scale comprising far more layers than last time around. I think the point "Education is a right" is moot. Primary and secondary education are, but not third level, seeing as it's not essential for/not availed of by many, whereas the first two are. Third level institutions are haemorrhaging money as it is.

Definitely..I think? Hoola hoop screening? This country needs to educate more people with more brain power for a smarter economy not just more box stuffers.

What nonsense 3rd level is not essential. :eek:

Sonnenblumen

bluewolf wrote: »

That's probably cos it's so commonplace. They used to require LC when uni education was a lot more rare, and now it's BSc required. It'll probably be MSc soon unless we do something about it :rolleyes:

Is that not progress and/or rising standards? That's surely a good thing. I do agree that the Primary degree has fallen in value, Post grad ie Master's is the current benchmark, and a PhD (depending on subject).

Dudess

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Definitely..I think? Hoola hoop screening? This country needs to educate more people with more brain power for a smarter economy not just more box stuffers.

Exactly. Fees would make people less likely to go to college solely for a three/four-year piss-up.

What nonsense 3rd level is not essential. :eek:

Not for everyone, no. Who has done better for themselves - a person who trained as an electrician and has a secure job with the ESB, or a person with an arts degree working in a call centre?

Mike 1972

Dudess wrote: »

Exactly. Fees would make people less likely to go to college solely for a three/four-year piss-up.

The ones who are there solely for a piss up tend to be gone after the first year having failed exams and wotnot.

I wouldnt necessarily have an issues with fees provided there were a non meanstested system of low/zero interest student loans sufficient to cover fees and reasonable living expenses of a student living away from home and repayable once ones income exceeded a certain threshold. While some might still use the money for a year long piss up it would be rather stupid to do so as one would eventually have to pay it back. It would provide students with a greater incentive to work harder and reduce/eliminate their dependence on parents/taxpayers.

I wouldnt envisage the loan system being profitable (not the point of the exercise) but it should cost considerably less to run than paying out grants and providing "free" third level education.

stovelid

Leslie Powerful Goggle wrote: »

There is also the fact that a large majority of people who don't go to college do an apprenticeship which they spend a large amount of time in fas getting paid, having their accommodation paid etc.

Apprenticeships are far more accessible than third-level education.