Dog bit.

Storminateacup

I have a beautiful sheepdog who is approx 5/6 years old. We rescused him from our local pound almost 4 years ago. He was fully grown, but acted as if he was just an oversized pup.

I cannot even begin to explain how gentle and kind this animal was. We have a smaller dog, and the sheepdog has the patience of a saint with him - even allowing the smaller dog to share his food/bed.

He is very affectionate, and everybody (up until today) who has come in contact with him has always remarked how affectionate/quiet he really is.

I can't begin to tell you, or stress how out of form it was for him to "turn" this evening. In the 4 years I have owned him, the only time he barks is when he is so excited that I've come home, and hes generally so excited, he won't even give me a chance to get out of the car, as he will be in on top of me.

He's never really had to be around children, as the couple of times he has been around them, he has seemed quite stressed out, and would hide behind my legs, or cower away, or yelp to be allowed outside, away from them.
As we knew it stressed him out, we kept him away from younger children - more for his sake to be honest, as we never imagined he was a danger to them.

However, this evening, there was a 4 year old child in our home, and the dog got out. He went to sit next to my dad, and of course the children wanted to pet the dog and got out of the car to do so.
My dad stood next to my dog, as the children stroked him. My dad said he showed no signs of distress, as he was just lapping up the attention. The 4 year old girl was a little nervous of the dog, so wasn't as inclined to approach or stroke the child.

Her parents were there, but obviously weren't watching her, and as soon as my dad turned around (he didn't leave the dog, the children weren't touching the dog any longer) - in a split second - the dog turned.

Launching himself at the 4 year old, he grabbed her face. Thank God he missed her eye, but he did strip the skin to the bone above her eyebrow. He also marked her arm, so he obviously bit her twice. As soon as the child screamed he backed off, the child was removed from the situation, brought to the accident and emergency part of the hospital.

But I mean, she's badly hurt - although I thank God it wasn't a lot worse. I don't understand what came over him - its so out of character.

My dad is very upset, keeps saying had the child been alone he could have killed her, that he attacked her like he would attack another dog.

I'm absolutely heart broken. That dog is like my child. I know he needs to be put to sleep, in case he ever did it to another child, but my heart is breaking. Is there anything else I can do? Am I required by law to have the animal destroyed?

I am not sure why I even wrote this thread. has this ever happened with you? Have you any insight as to why such a quiet and timid dog would flip like that?

Thanks for reading.

pokertalk

jesus poor girl .as the dog is afraid of kids it must be something rooted in from when he was younger before you had him. a fearfull dog will bite it could have bein that the girl rubbed the dog in a painfull spot or a cut or something and caused him pain adding that to the fact that the dog is fearfull of children he prob just snapped . thank god he din not continue his attack.
as for being put down im not sure where you stand there has the dog bein reported for this attack maybe someone else on here can help with that . the dog deffo needs to be socialised so he can learn to trust children.

Storminateacup

He wasnt sore, the dog understands the words "kiss", I wish I could say oh well she was pulling at him, or something -- not that it would justify it, but I would understand at least. He just lost it.

It seems to be smaller children he doesn't like. He sat at the road the entire summer watching next doors older kids (12 or so) cycle up and down, and he loved them, they made a fuss about him, and he would quite happily sit there giving them his paw and licking them.


I would do anything for him if it meant I could keep him. Classes, I don't know. Anything.
I feel awful that he hurt the child, but I feel awful, like I let him down too.

pokertalk

Storminateacup wrote: »

He wasnt sore, the dog understands the words "kiss", I wish I could say oh well she was pulling at him, or something -- not that it would justify it, but I would understand at least. He just lost it.

It seems to be smaller children he doesn't like. He sat at the road the entire summer watching next doors older kids (12 or so) cycle up and down, and he loved them, they made a fuss about him, and he would quite happily sit there giving them his paw and licking them.


I would do anything for him if it meant I could keep him. Classes, I don't know. Anything.
I feel awful that he hurt the child, but I feel awful, like I let him down too.

he deff needs to go to a behavior specialist to address his fear around children you should look into this straight away they dont only thech the do but you aswell

pH

It's a heartbreaking story, and yet its so common, and I'm confused by it. A friend of mine had a very similar experience with their child last summer, dog was being supervised by its owner, 5 year old girl by her parent, everything placid and calm then bang, dog bites girls face out of nowhere - resulting in A&E, plastics etc.

Does anyone understand what's causing these types of attacks, the dogs aren't stressed, everything is calm then it all goes wrong in a flash - dogs have no history of attacks, child is in no way annoying or teasing the dog, plenty of adults around - can anyone throw any light on what's going on?

**Vai**

May be nothing to do with it but this reminds me of an article I read about kids misunderstanding dogs facial expressions, like a snarl being mistaken for a smile. Kids need to be thought as well as dogs. Having said that its strange the dog would just turn like that.

What u said about the dog jumping on u when u get home rings alarms bells for me. Thats not a sign of love, its a sign of dominance. Thats one of your classic early warning signs that your dog needs to learn his place in your pack.

liah

I can only imagine it has something to do with sounds small children make or facial expressions. Adults and older kids have controlled facial expressions and command over whatever comes out of their mouth, but younger children can be very shrill to a dog (consider their hearing). And the dog may misread a facial expression paired with a sudden movement (as children will often not know to not move suddenly around dogs).

Perhaps it's even a smell that triggered it, or a small, sharp nail caught on skin when the child pets/rubs the dog.

Point is, you'll never know for sure what caused it and you'll never know for sure if it'll happen again.

I don't know if dogs are allowed to continue life after biting children, I wouldn't be surprised if it was law to have dogs who attack kids put down immediately. But I could be wrong, and I hope for your sake it isn't true.

Find a behaviour specialist ASAP if you really want to keep this dog.

What has the parent of the child said? Are they planning legal action?

If they're planning legal action it's theoretically possible that the dog will be ordered destroyed. Again, I'm not entirely sure of laws in this country but I've heard similar stories about other countries.

anniehoo

Has the childs parent requested the dog to be put to sleep? If they havent, then i wouldnt. You now know the dog CANNOT under any circumstances be trusted with small children. There was a similar thread a few weeks ago, but the OP was the parent of the child that got bitten. While he was furious he was rational enough to give the dog a second chance.

Little kids have as Liah said "uncontrolled reactions". Your dog may have gotten a fright/slap from a small kid as a pup and the association has stayed with him ever since. He may have been trying to compose himself when she was there but the fear got too much and it was a "fight or flight" adrenaline response. A surge of panic that he just couldnt control.

oppenheimer1

The dog is dangerous and should be euthanized. No ifs or buts, it sounds like quite a viscous attack and no amount of behaviour "therapy" will mean you will have confidence in him around children. In short get rid of him.

pokertalk

anniehoo wrote: »

Has the childs parent requested the dog to be put to sleep? If they havent, then i wouldnt. You now know the dog CANNOT under any circumstances be trusted with small children. There was a similar thread a few weeks ago, but the OP was the parent of the child that got bitten. While he was furious he was rational enough to give the dog a second chance.

Little kids have as Liah said "uncontrolled reactions". Your dog may have gotten a fright/slap from a small kid as a pup and the association has stayed with him ever since. He may have been trying to compose himself when she was there but the fear got too much and it was a "fight or flight" adrenaline response. A surge of panic that he just couldnt control.

id say this is plausable since the dog has a history of being verry uneasy around children

anniehoo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The dog is dangerous and should be euthanized. No ifs or buts, it sounds like quite a viscous attack and no amount of behaviour "therapy" will mean you will have confidence in him around children. In short get rid of him.

I dont agree at all. Read the thread i posted in my last post. Yeh i agree it sounds like an unprovoked attack and a child was unfortunately hurt but a massive lesson has been learned. Is it "one strike and you're out" for you oppenheimer? You could definitely learn a lesson from the OP in the thread i posted. After his initial "dog should be put to sleep" reaction he calmed down and gave the dog another chance. Dogs have fears and anxieties too ya know, theyre not perfect. In 4 years this has been the first time he's done something like this...thats not a dangerous dog to me, just a dog with restrictions i.e.not allowed anywhere near young children from now on.

oppenheimer1

anniehoo wrote: »

I dont agree at all. Read the thread i posted in my last post. Yeh i agree it sounds like an unprovoked attack and a child was unfortunately hurt but a massive lesson has been learned. Is it "one strike and you're out" for you oppenheimer? You could definitely learn a lesson from the OP in the thread i posted. After his initial "dog should be put to sleep" reaction he calmed down and gave the dog another chance. Dogs have fears and anxieties too ya know, theyre not perfect. In 4 years this has been the first time he's done something like this...thats not a dangerous dog to me, just a dog with restrictions i.e.not allowed anywhere near young children from now on.

The dog mauled a childs face, it wasn't a snap. But yes basically if an animal displays an aggressive trait towards children then I believe there should be no second chances, because quite frankly I have a higher regard for a childs life than a dog. In the OPs case if the parents had their back turned for any longer it could have been a tragedy we're talking about. (I also believe that animals and children should never be unsupervised together, that said a dog could bolt and do a lot of damage before you get him under control again.)

The dog should be muzzled at all times there is a chance of him interacting with people other than the owner. If this is an unreasonable request then the dog should be destroyed. If it was my child the latter would be the course of action I would be ensuring that was followed.

seamus

Storminateacup wrote: »

Am I required by law to have the animal destroyed?

No. If the child's parents insisted that you put the dog down then they can make a complaint to the local warden. The warden will seize the dog and make an application before a judge to have the dog classified as "dangerous", which then allows the judge to make an order to have the dog put down.

In this case, there is little hope that the judge would not make that order. So in the event that the child's parents insist that the dog is put down, life will be easier all around if it is done on your schedule rather than having the dog seized and kept in the pound.

If the parents do insist on having it put down and they are friends of yours, maybe appeal to their reason - are they only looking for the dog to be put down because they want revenge? In that case, ask them to sit on it for a week and come back to you so they can look at it with a bit more objectiveness.

If the owners are leaving it up to you, then it's a matter for your own conscience.

Have you any insight as to why such a quiet and timid dog would flip like that?

Hard to say. Collies are notoriously intolerant of children - they've been trained to herd small nervous animals, such as sheep, so perhaps some collies lump children into the same category and see them as something to be "herded" rather than as humans.

The notion that the dog has suddenly become an evil, relentless killing machine and must be destroyed is absurd. He's still exactly the same dog that he was before the incident, you've just been exposed to an aspect of his personality in a most unfortunate manner. He can live out the rest of his days as the same friend he always was, provided that you adequately control this aspect of him - never allowed near children, ever.

We don't destroy horses when they kick or cats when they scratch or bite, so why dogs? If you have a bad-tempered cat, you tell people just to stay away from it. Why not the same with a dog?

Something happened and was missed by everyone in the room.

the_syco

Have a westie who hates kids. If a kid comes near, she'll growl, bark, and back away. She's okay if I have her on a lease, as she seems to understand that I'll keep the children away from her.

I still have to tell people to keep their kids the f**k away from my dog when she starts growling at them :mad:

Storminateacup

Ok, thanks to everybody that replied. Heres a quick update, just a short one. I am far too upset to write it all down, I couldn't sleep last night, so today I visited the vet. He suggested behavioural therapy, but stressed that its not 100% effective, as I know already. The dog is obviously unpredictable, and obviously felt stressed or in danger, and the vet questioned whether or not it was fair to let the dog lead such a stressed life.

Said I need to think carefully, that the parents could sue - for medical bills, damages, ect as well as having the dog destroyed.
Obviously we will pay the medical bills, but would rather avoid that entire situation.

The mother said she wanted the dog put down, but she said it in nicer, but firm. "Im wondering and hoping have you had the dog put to sleep".

Apparently the childs face is in a bad way. She can't have the surgery as there is not enough skin there. When she is older, then perhaps they can graph it.

My hearts breaking. I know its nothing compared to what the child and her parents are going through, but I love that dog like he was my own child. I'm angry, I'm so angry that they would allow the child around a dog she wasnt familiar with. They were sitting in the car, ffs, while the children were running about.

The dog was actually inside, and the mother of the child opened the door, let the dog out, and didn't put him back inside.

But deep down I know what happened was dreadful, and if it ever happened again, I would never forgive myself. It keeps running over in my head, what would have happened if he didn't back off? What would have happened if she lost her eye? If he had gone for her neck? I feel physically sick.

He's my best friend, I know that sounds incredibly cliche and I apologise, but theres just something about him that melts me, he adores me -- I've never ever felt as loved as I do when he sits next to me, or licks my hand if I'm upset.

He's there to welcome me home when I've been away, come for walks with me. I know its been mentioned that its not affection, that its dominance, but I don't think so. I really don't think so. I open the car door and hes trying to climb onto my knee before i get out, and he gets so excited it looks like hes grinning.

He's been there for me through a lot - there when I didn't have anybody else to comfort me. He was always there. It never mattered to him what I had done, or how I looked, or who hated me, he always loved me and always remained completely kind and loyal towards me.

I know that shouldn't matter - he did hurt a child, but I look at him and see his big trusting brown eyes staring back at me. I ask him for a kiss and he'll stick his big black nose into my face. Ask him all day for kisses, and he'll sit there doling them out.
His big shovel paw finding itself onto your knee when he's not getting your attention.

he trusts me and I completely failed him, for whatever reason. Be it that he was ill, or terrified. Now he's going to most likely end up dead because of something he really didnt realise was wrong.

Hes not a bad boy. He obviously felt in danger for a reason I will never know, and i'm going to punish him for it??

I feel like Judas. The worst person in the whole entire world.

alanvor

anniehoo

Please do not euthenise him. take him for behaviour lessons. As you say he is like a child to you

**Vai**

Agreed. Except the dog shouldnt be like a child to her. Its a dog. Treating it like a child is wrong.

oppenheimer1

Storminateacup wrote: »

Ok, thanks to everybody that replied. Heres a quick update, just a short one. I am far too upset to write it all down, I couldn't sleep last night, so today I visited the vet. He suggested behavioural therapy, but stressed that its not 100% effective, as I know already. The dog is obviously unpredictable, and obviously felt stressed or in danger, and the vet questioned whether or not it was fair to let the dog lead such a stressed life.

Said I need to think carefully, that the parents could sue - for medical bills, damages, ect as well as having the dog destroyed.
Obviously we will pay the medical bills, but would rather avoid that entire situation.

The mother said she wanted the dog put down, but she said it in nicer, but firm. "Im wondering and hoping have you had the dog put to sleep".

Apparently the childs face is in a bad way. She can't have the surgery as there is not enough skin there. When she is older, then perhaps they can graph it.

My hearts breaking. I know its nothing compared to what the child and her parents are going through, but I love that dog like he was my own child. I'm angry, I'm so angry that they would allow the child around a dog she wasnt familiar with. They were sitting in the car, ffs, while the children were running about.

The dog was actually inside, and the mother of the child opened the door, let the dog out, and didn't put him back inside.

But deep down I know what happened was dreadful, and if it ever happened again, I would never forgive myself. It keeps running over in my head, what would have happened if he didn't back off? What would have happened if she lost her eye? If he had gone for her neck? I feel physically sick.

He's my best friend, I know that sounds incredibly cliche and I apologise, but theres just something about him that melts me, he adores me -- I've never ever felt as loved as I do when he sits next to me, or licks my hand if I'm upset.

He's there to welcome me home when I've been away, come for walks with me. I know its been mentioned that its not affection, that its dominance, but I don't think so. I really don't think so. I open the car door and hes trying to climb onto my knee before i get out, and he gets so excited it looks like hes grinning.

He's been there for me through a lot - there when I didn't have anybody else to comfort me. He was always there. It never mattered to him what I had done, or how I looked, or who hated me, he always loved me and always remained completely kind and loyal towards me.

I know that shouldn't matter - he did hurt a child, but I look at him and see his big trusting brown eyes staring back at me. I ask him for a kiss and he'll stick his big black nose into my face. Ask him all day for kisses, and he'll sit there doling them out.
His big shovel paw finding itself onto your knee when he's not getting your attention.

he trusts me and I completely failed him, for whatever reason. Be it that he was ill, or terrified. Now he's going to most likely end up dead because of something he really didnt realise was wrong.

Hes not a bad boy. He obviously felt in danger for a reason I will never know, and i'm going to punish him for it??

I feel like Judas. The worst person in the whole entire world.

I know this sounds harsh, but its your fault for not having your dog under your control, not the parents.

It sounds like you're preparing yourself to make the right decision regarding this animals future. He has to go and you know it.

alanvor

As a pet lover myself, I know what you are going through. Do not react in the heat of the moment. Put him in boarding for a while until you know what you are going to do, but remember you rescued him, you love him, and that should ease all your worries. Time heals all. Please do not put your dog to sleep.

rainbowtrout

seamus wrote: »

If the parents do insist on having it put down and they are friends of yours, maybe appeal to their reason - are they only looking for the dog to be put down because they want revenge? In that case, ask them to sit on it for a week and come back to you so they can look at it with a bit more objectiveness.

They wouldn't have to look for the dog to be put down just for revenge. They may want it put down because they don't want another child to be at risk of attack by this dog.

Storminateacup wrote: »

Said I need to think carefully, that the parents could sue - for medical bills, damages, ect as well as having the dog destroyed.
Obviously we will pay the medical bills, but would rather avoid that entire situation.

The mother said she wanted the dog put down, but she said it in nicer, but firm. "Im wondering and hoping have you had the dog put to sleep".

Apparently the childs face is in a bad way. She can't have the surgery as there is not enough skin there. When she is older, then perhaps they can graph it.

My hearts breaking. I know its nothing compared to what the child and her parents are going through, but I love that dog like he was my own child. I'm angry, I'm so angry that they would allow the child around a dog she wasnt familiar with. They were sitting in the car, ffs, while the children were running about.

The dog was actually inside, and the mother of the child opened the door, let the dog out, and didn't put him back inside.

But deep down I know what happened was dreadful, and if it ever happened again, I would never forgive myself. It keeps running over in my head, what would have happened if he didn't back off? What would have happened if she lost her eye? If he had gone for her neck? I feel physically sick.

You said in your first post that the dog got out and went to sit next to your dad. Why wasn't he brought back in immediately or not put on a lead? You can't blame the child. While parents probably shouldn't have their kids running about, many will assume that a dog running free is safe for their kids to be around. In this case, it wasn't.

I can imagine how you are feeling OP, I have two dogs myself, but that child is now scarred, and it's a facial scar at that, not the easiest to hide. The child will probably be terrified of dogs for the rest of her life.

I can see why the mother would want your dog put down to be honest.

seamus

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They wouldn't have to look for the dog to be put down just for revenge.

Of course not, but it would be their first instinct. What I mean is that you (as in "one") should ask them to consider why they are looking for the dog to be put down and ask them to wait until the fog has cleared.

convert

If the parents of the child have already asked you, albeit nicely, to have the dog put down, if you don't it is likely that the parents may sue to have the dog destroyed, as well as suing you for the damages, physical and emmotional, caused by the dog. As suggested above, give them a little while until the shock wears off before discussing it with them again. It might be an idea to have your dog booked in to classes before you talk to them so that you can show you're making an effort, but unfortunately it may not be enough.

Sittingpretty

Jesus when did we get so reactionary? THe dog has to this point been exemplorary (sp?) and was in his own garden.
When I was 5 I caught my labs paw in the back door and he bit the leg off me, still have scars, did he get pts? No.
The dog is clearly not vicious and some trigger caused this. Plus collies are herders and constant nippers so prob best not to be around small children full stop.
I don't see why you should have this dog pts. If it were a regular occurence then I would say you have a problem but for one instance? No. and yes, before all the villagers wielding flames and chanting pts, I do have children and I do value a childs life I just don't believe in the one strike and you are out typical Irish mentality towards dogs.

OP - Could it have been a reaction to pain? Has he been checked by the vet? I can completely understand the parents distress but I honestly don't see how destroying your dog will make this situation easier for anyone.

Storminateacup

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I know this sounds harsh, but its your fault for not having your dog under your control, not the parents.

It sounds like you're preparing yourself to make the right decision regarding this animals future. He has to go and you know it.

My dog was under control. He was on his own property, next to my father, who was ready to remove him from the first instant he showed any sign of distress.

Our home is well secure, so while hes on our property, we never seen any need for us to chain him up, or have him wear a muzzle.

He is never ever out in public without a lead and he is under control then.

I know we are at fault, I'm not arguing that at all.

But those people called, and instead of the children remaining in the car (or entering the house), they did neither. The childrens parents ALLOWED the children to get out of the car and pet the dog. They did not watch the children, instead, both of them sat back in the car.

My dad was aware the dog was uneasy around young children, so thus remained by the dogs side ready to remove him immed. (Anytime hes been around kids before, he would cower down or do his best to move away from them)

I certainly didn't think the dog was capable of what he did. I can't read the dogs mind. I understand I do need to assume responsibility, and I do - which is why I will pay the medical expenses, but the parents are not entirely blame free in this whole situation.

The dog was locked inside, as we were on our way out. The childs mother opened the door for me as my hands were full, and the dog ran out (and straight over to my father) and just left it.

By the time I got back outside, the harm was done.

I am angry with the parents, and I don't think I'm completely wrong to be angry with the parents. Ultimately, their children is their responsibility, just as the dog is my responsibility.

Having had a child myself, I can guarantee you, I would not have my daughter out unsupervised around a dog she did not know or did not know her.

pH

**Vai** wrote: »

Agreed. Except the dog shouldnt be like a child to her. Its a dog. Treating it like a child is wrong.

I'm sure she said she *loved* it like a child, not that she was treating it like a child.

Anyway, if the dog was in your home, and the parents allowed and supervised their children's access to it (as your story suggests) then this isn't necessarily as clear cut as a dog loose in public savaging a child, though, if the parents of the child really push via the dog warden/court route it's likely they would get their way and have the dog destroyed.

I think after this incident it's unlikely that another child would be harmed in a similar fashion - you now know that the dog shouldn't be around any children even supervised - terrible as the bite was, killing the dog for it seems very unfair, that said, if you and your family decide to keep it you have a *huge* responsibility that to ensure it never happens again - which means commitment to behavioural therapy and absolute diligence with the dog.

Storminateacup

I've made a decision, after seeking advice from both a vet and a solicitor.

I'm going to wait a couple of days for the dust to settle, I understand - as any parent would be - that shes extremely upset and I'm not saying she's going to be fine about it in a couple of days, I don't think like that at all, in the slightest.

I'm going to go talk with her, and tell her exactly what I've told you guys, except for the being sad part because I don't want to make her feel guilty. I will assure her that the dog will be kept muzzled at all times while outside, even when on our property, and will be kept away from people he doesn't know or trust.
I will have the details of the behavioural therapist I will take my dog to, and I will have a full physical examination done,to ensure the dog is physically alright.

I will ask her to reconsider, I will ask her if she will allow him to live. I will give her those assurances, and by god, I mean them, because I am under no illusion how serious and terrible and dangerous this situation is.

If she still insists the dog - my baby - be put to sleep, I'll say fair enough.
I adore the dog, but at the end of the day, the childs safety comes 1st.

So basically, I'm going to leave it entirely up to the childs mother & father. Just try put forward a serious plea that I promise will never happen again.

Do you think this is ok? Am I being selfish, prolonging it all.
I feel awful, the poor dog isnt himself at all today.

oppenheimer1

Storminateacup wrote: »

I've made a decision, after seeking advice from both a vet and a solicitor.

I'm going to wait a couple of days for the dust to settle, I understand - as any parent would be - that shes extremely upset and I'm not saying she's going to be fine about it in a couple of days, I don't think like that at all, in the slightest.

I'm going to go talk with her, and tell her exactly what I've told you guys, except for the being sad part because I don't want to make her feel guilty. I will assure her that the dog will be kept muzzled at all times while outside, even when on our property, and will be kept away from people he doesn't know or trust.
I will have the details of the behavioural therapist I will take my dog to, and I will have a full physical examination done,to ensure the dog is physically alright.

I will ask her to reconsider, I will ask her if she will allow him to live. I will give her those assurances, and by god, I mean them, because I am under no illusion how serious and terrible and dangerous this situation is.

If she still insists the dog - my baby - be put to sleep, I'll say fair enough.
I adore the dog, but at the end of the day, the childs safety comes 1st.

So basically, I'm going to leave it entirely up to the childs mother & father. Just try put forward a serious plea that I promise will never happen again.

Do you think this is ok? Am I being selfish, prolonging it all.
I feel awful, the poor dog isnt himself at all today.

Personally I don't think thats good enough. The dog rushed past you to get out so even if you say it will be muzzled at all times in public you cannot guarantee it. Its also unfair on the animal to have him muzzled for such a long part of the day.

It is selfish to ask the parents to spare the life of the dog after guilt tripping them. You should do the decent thing and have it put down on your own bat.

astra2000

I am sorry op but I really do think you you are wrong not to put the dog down. Had he just nipped her on the leg or arm I would say give him a second chance but from what you say he attacked her quite savagely.
I know you think the dog is like your baby but there is no comparison and I am speaking from the experience of having a dog I very much loved before I had children .
My youngest child was attacked by my friends dog while we were in their home visiting he bit her on the face totally unprovoked and apparently out of caracter, luckily she had minor injuries as I was beside her and managed to pull my little girl away. The dog was not put down owners apologised I didnt kick up a fuss about them not putting him down as I was in their house when it happened but never let my daughter visit again. Anyway this dog who was about 6 yrs attacked another child a few months later and they realised he had to go.
By keeping your dog you are really taking a known risk that he will attack again, and I suppose also risking your friendship. Imho you need to stop blaming the parents and child and accept responsibility. I really really do feel sorry for you but imagine how you will feel should he do this or worse again.

pokertalk

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Personally I don't think thats good enough. The dog rushed past you to get out so even if you say it will be muzzled at all times in public you cannot guarantee it. Its also unfair on the animal to have him muzzled for such a long part of the day.

It is selfish to ask the parents to spare the life of the dog after guilt tripping them. You should do the decent thing and have it put down on your own bat.

if this goes in front of a judge im afraid it will be a knee jerk decision and the outcome will be the dog being pts. the fact that the child was on your land may come into play. you say your going to punish the dog if you did not do it verry soon after the attack the doing so now at this late stage is pointless as he will not know what you are punishing him for.

kylith

OP, I feel your pain. A couple of years ago one of my dogs bit my niece and while it wasn't as bad a bite as in your case, it did draw blood. My brother wanted the dog put down but I refused because I don't feel that it was the dog's fault.

The child had been told that the dog was very grumpy and not to go near her, but as soon as my back was turned the child's mother allowed the child to approach the dog while she was sleeping and, in the words of a witness, grab her. The dog lashed out and the child was bitten.

She's been around children since, and has been fine. The kids have had it impressed upon them to leave the dog alone, and she leaves them alone. However I am resigned to the fact that if anything happens again my pet will have to be put to sleep.

Meeoow

so sorry for you OP. don't do anything yet.
our auld family mutt bit a kid years ago. the kids used to torture him, pulling his tail and getting chases off him, not that I am saying that justifies his revenge. thank god the kids parents were very understanding and just asked us to keep him in. he lived to a ripe old age and died of natural causes, and never bit anyone since. it killed us to eventually get him put to sleep as he had too many old age illness to cope with, but I couldn't have lived with myself if he had to be put down when he was healthy.

Storminateacup

Astra,

I understand what you're saying, this post here, is summing up exactly what I'm thinking.
It wasn't just a bad bite - it was a savage unprovoked out of character attack. He attacked her like I imagine he would attack another dog in defence.

If I'm being honest, I am terrified that he WILL attack again, and I'm also worried that theres something wrong with him, either physically or physcologically.

I am not just blaming the parents - they could not have known what the dog was capable of, nor could have I. I accept the dog is in my care, and thus, I am responsible for him.

However, the parents AREN'T completely blameless either. Having spoken to my solicitor, they WERE negeligent. They were sitting in their car, while their children ran amok, unsupervised. My dad was there, but those children aren't his responsibility, at the end of the day.

So, yes, I'm angry that they came onto our property (uninvited, but not trespassing), allowed their children to get out of the car to run around, while they sat in the car. Accidents happen. Serious accidents happen, unfortunately and sadly. This particular accident could have been prevented had better care been taken on BOTH sides. The parents, IMHO, are not blameless.

astra2000

Hi op I just had a reread of your first post. You mention that your dog is a rescue dog and has always been nervous of children it is probably likely that he had bad experiences from before you got him. We had a dog got him from a neighbour who was not a dog friendly person to put it mildly. Anyway we had him around 6 months and one day I went outside to sweep the patio dog took one look at the brus in my hand and fled howling. We had never hit the dog with anything so we know we hadnt put this fear in him. We had the dog four years and each time he saw one of us with a brush or anything resembling one he gave the same reaction. He was only about 10 weeks when we got him but whatever happened stayed with him.
People have mentioned to you about behaviour therapy but it does appear to be children he is nervous with and I cant imagine that you would ever be able to expose him to kids again so the chances of him been taught to behave around them would be slim.
And yes your right the parents should have been supervising but from what you have said the dog attacked as soon as your dad turned his head so even if they had been standing beside their daughter he may have still attacked. I really do feel sorry for you on this one there is no easy solution unfortunatly.

granturismo

Storminateacup wrote: »

However, the parents AREN'T completely blameless either. Having spoken to my solicitor, they WERE negeligent. .. The parents, IMHO, are not blameless.

I sympathise with you're position but your dog (not baby) bit a young child who is too young to have a skin graft but possibly needs one in the future. The child's parents want your dog out to sleep.

Your solicitor can only give his/her opinion that the parents were negligent. Did your solicitor mention 'contributory negligence'. Check it out and answer honestly what proportion rests with you.

If this was one of our dogs then they would have been out down, yes there would be crying in our house - our dogs are part of the family but where children are concerned a dog is a dog and your dog werent under control.

I genuinely do sympathise with you.

Storminateacup

Astra, what you have described with the brush was exactly how my dog was when we got him first.

I haven't got it in me to be cruel to an animal. I don't even have it in me to "be the boss". As much as I love animals, I swear to God I will never own another dog again. I'm not responsible enough, and I'd never ever forgive myself should another child be hurt.

There are 3 of us living at home, and ever since we got the dog, he's attached himself to me. He's my boy, purely and simply. I idolise the ground that dog walks on. When we got him 1st, he was a bag of nerves. We assumed it was because he was fully grown, in a new home, and gradually he began to trust us, and seemed to have grown out of it.

There has been one occasion though, that my brother took up a mop to wash the floor and the dog took away like lightening, through the house, into my room and straight in on top of me in the bed, whimpering.
He snuggled in like a tiny puppy and was not moving. The dog was shaking. He relaxed fine laying next to me and all was okay again.

My brother didn't hit him - has never hit him or been cruel to him, but my brother doesn't fuss over him like I do. My dog doesn't seem to be close to my brother. He won't go walkies with him, or he won't roam up to my brothers room and get in on top of him in the bed. He does with me. He doesn't kiss either my dad or my brother.

Its safe to say, hes definately my boy.


The vet said collies are not childrens dogs and they DO suffer from a lot of anxity.

I was obviously stupid enough to think that him being scared of brushes ect would go away once he seen that we wouldn't hurt him or hit him, and I honestly did think he was getting better because now when the floor is being mopped he barely rises his head anymore, but he obviously must have been super nervous.

My dads going to have him put to sleep. This has honestly been one of the worst days of my life. I can't eat, I can't sleep. And its making it so much harder, cause he comes next to me and sits so close. He obviously trusts me, comes walkies with me, feels safe with me, and Im going to betray him in the worst possible way.

Thanks for all your replies, but this is what we have to do.

astra2000

Storminateacup wrote: »

I was obviously stupid enough to think that him being scared of brushes ect would go away once he seen that we wouldn't hurt him or hit him, and I honestly did think he was getting better because now when the floor is being mopped he barely rises his head anymore, but he obviously must have been super nervous.

Well that makes two of us,reason we only had this dog 4yrswas because one day out of the blue it attacked a neighbours much smaller dog as they were walking past our house it was an unprovoked attack. He was savaging the dog and could not separate them until my son thinking quick ran in and got the brush, the second he spotted that he let go and fled for his life! We made the desision to have him put down as it was the neighbours kids who walked the dog and it was bad enough been afraid he would attack their dog but imagine if he had gone for one of the children/
I think your dad has made the right decision much and all as it hurts. As for the issue of never getting another dog, dont consider that as an option for now allow your self time to to get used to life without your pet. You really sound like a responsible loving pet owner and it would be a pity to deprive yourself of a pet in the long term. Best wishes

Zapperzy

Im very sorry to hear that your putting him to sleep, it honestly is one of the hardest decisions to make, a decision only pet owners can understand just how difficult it is to make.

I just wanted to comment on how responsible you have been all through this, there are many who would make a rash decision and stick with it (some would be too quick to put the dog down and others would be too narrow minded to even consider euthanasia and would just point blank refuse to even consider it). You have taken everything into consideration, weighed up your options and made a decision.

Make his last days happy ones and RIP doggy. Hope the child is ok too.

Peace

Its the right decision. The dog crossed a line and now a child is physically scarred for the foreseeable future and possibly psycologically scarred for life.

I have no doubt that this is difficult as pets can become part of the family but the risk that another child could be mauled is not a risk you would have the right to take.

pokertalk

the fact of the matter is this could happen to any dog owner as we never truly know what is going on in a dogs head. your making a very hard decision and one people often would not make. dont deprive yourself of owning another dog as you sound like a very capable dog owner. this is the problem with alot of rescue dogs in the way that we never really know a proper background. enjoy you time with your dog baby him all you want:(
its a v sad story but its a story thats going to make me extra extra vigilant with my two.

Storminateacup

I can't sleep. I can't eat. I can barely see my eyes are so swollen.
He's laying on his bed that Santa brought him, oblivious to all that's going on.
Snuggling into him earlier relaxed me so much until I realised really what I was going to do to him.

I know it sounds stupid but this is the only time I really hope there's no "afterlife" because the thoughts of him KNOWING what I did is eating me up.

Can honestly say this has been the worst birthday of my life, my poor little baby.

The above poster is right, you never can tell. Just be careful, you guys. Even the quietest kindest tamest dog can flip. Don't put your pets in such a horrid position as I put mine in.

He always will be my boy.

smellslikeshoes

Definitely the right decision, frankly I'm a bit surprised about how many people suggested not to have the dog put to sleep. It's not like it was a little bite on the hand or anything, the dog went for the kids face and took enough skin off to reach the bone, this could have been much much worse. To suggest anything other than the dog being destroyed immediately is downright ridiculous.

belongtojazz

I just wanted to say how much this story upset me. Just the thought of being in that position with my dogs absolutely breaks my heart. Such a tough decision to make.

Hope the child is doing ok.

Like Pokertalk said it has made me even more vigilant with my lot, you really never know what is going to trigger a reaction like that from a dog

Thinking of you

seamus

While I don't necessarily agree with your decision, it's your decision to make, and it took a lot of guts to make it.

You have my sympathies. Take a couple of days off work/school/college and spend time with him, let him know he's loved and he's not a bad dog.

pickarooney

I don't understand the situation at all. These 'people', who are not friends of yours apparently, just showed up at your house, let their kids out of the car to play with the dog (or not, if the dog was inside) and stayed sitting in the car? But the woman opened the front door at some stage... I'm not sure it makes much difference, but the events surrounding the attack are really unclear.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I'll have to say, and I'm sincerely sorry that I'm not making your decision any easier.

But if there's the slightest hope I'd go to the ends of the earth to same my dogs.

Reading the OP's last post is heart breaking, anyone who love's their dogs can feel the hurt and anguish in the OP's heart.

Either I'm a coward, or greedy - but I couldn't put PTS either of my lads if there was a hope I'd fight their corner.

Maybe take legal advice?.

Storminateacup

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't understand the situation at all. These 'people', who are not friends of yours apparently, just showed up at your house, let their kids out of the car to play with the dog (or not, if the dog was inside) and stayed sitting in the car? But the woman opened the front door at some stage... I'm not sure it makes much difference, but the events surrounding the attack are really unclear.

they're neighbours. They had a kitten they didn't want and they asked me to take it instead of having it put to sleep. The mother got out, opened the door as I had the kitten in it's bed in my arms. They sat back into the car smoking while the children ran around two dogs, unsupervised.

The gardai called about ten mins ago. The dog def has to go, whether we want to or not. So help me god if they so much as ever step foot inside any of our property again, I'll be dug out of them.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I think this thread should be a reminder for us all to be ever on our guard.

As someone said earlier, we just don't know whats going on inside our dogs heads.

And I often tell people, our dogs don't bite because they don't want to bite us - press the right button and its their only real defence to fear.

I'd hate to be in your position OP, it would kill me.

reeta

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The dog is dangerous and should be euthanized. No ifs or buts, it sounds like quite a viscous attack and no amount of behaviour "therapy" will mean you will have confidence in him around children. In short get rid of him.

What a ridiculous comment, obviously you have never owned a dog...

reeta

Storminateacup wrote: »

they're neighbours. They had a kitten they didn't want and they asked me to take it instead of having it put to sleep. The mother got out, opened the door as I had the kitten in it's bed in my arms. They sat back into the car smoking while the children ran around two dogs, unsupervised.

The gardai called about ten mins ago. The dog def has to go, whether we want to or not. So help me god if they so much as ever step foot inside any of our property again, I'll be dug out of them.

I am absolutely heart broken for you, I dont know what I would do if it
happened to me (I have a 5 month old cocker spaniel) and he means more to me then anything... the unconditional love etc.., (and yes I do have children I have never been so upset reading a thread.. I would actually move away with the dog rather than get her put down !!!

Jelly2

It's an awful situation, and almost identical to one that we had in our family when I was a teenager. A beautiful purebred collie wandered into our yard one day, and we took him in. We adored him and he was a fantastic dog - friendly, playful, easygoing - most of the time. We even did a few local dog shows with him, and I remember that he was reserve champion a few times (not Crufts, but hey!).
Anyway, we noticed a few times that he was a bit snappish, and he did in fact snap at a few members of our family. But it was nothing serious really, and they were all adults, and he didn't do any damage. We just thought he was a bit nervous. In hindsight, of course, maybe this was the reason his previous owners abandoned him.
One day, he wandered to a house about a mile from ours, and we got a phone call that evening. The next day, the mother and her four year old son arrived at the front door - and we saw a number of stitches on the child's cheek. The dog had wandered into their yard, and bitten the child on the face. The gash was not huge, but it was a horrible shock to see what he had done. The father asked what would be done, and my Dad simply said that the dog was a stray that we had looked after, but that we could not protest if he chose to have it put down. And that was what happened. We hated that it had to be done, but that child was hurt, and that dog was not safe (I know you can never be 100% sure of any animal, of course). Our only regret was that we did not take heed of the warning signs.

anniehoo

Storminateacup wrote: »

My dads going to have him put to sleep. This has honestly been one of the worst days of my life.

Im truly sorry OP, what an absolutely horrendous decsion to have to make. While i dont agree with it either you have obviously made your mind up with what you feel is the right thing to do. The only consolation i can give you is he wont feel a thing when he is pts, not a thing ok. It is a really peaceful procedure, one i had to do this year with my own dog.

Dog owners, this is a big lesson. Dont ever 100% trust your dog around children. EVER. We cant know what they are thinking and/or what might trigger an attack. EVERY dog has the capability to do damage as the OP has learned the hard way.

Op, please dont let this put you off owning another dog,you sound very responsible and caring.