List of Transposers/Relays upgraded to DTT?

Machinehead

The Cush wrote: »

Below is the caution RTÉNL give when using the coverage checker. It doesn't provide coverage information for areas covered by multiple transmitters. Keeping it simple for the average viewer.




Is there a hill or other obstruction blocking your reception of Knockmoyle? At 3 km away you would think the proverbial coat hangar would pick up a decent signal.

Pointing the aerial at Knockmoyle, with the correct polarisation, should increase the signal quality received but by how much would only be a guess - depends on the terrain, aerial etc.

I've no less mountain between me & Knockmoyle than I have between me & Maghera but I'm stuck right at the bottom of a couple of hills between me and the mast (Knockmoyle), bearing in mind Mulla was always crap. I was just contemplating what might happen if I rotated my aerial 90 degrees & what might happen re signal on a different polarity. ATM I'm pretty satisfied with Maghera since the power increase ~ quality 60-70% strength 100% with a wideband aerial (C/D I think).

STB

Vince Cable wrote: »

He's probably just getting reflections from Knockmoyle as he's almost 'under' the mountain.
Of course this would be useless for analogue.

I am not familiar with the area Vince but again there are too many imponderables with DTT to map it via google (C/N, guard interval set etc). I would imagine we will see a lot more reception reports from non DXrs. Again prediction maps are just that, best guess predictions.

I am sure the RTE engineers have Sefram meters and are happily recording ripples.

Sponge Bob

And so it will come to pass that standard Saorview STBs will be Freeview HD compatible. I am surprised....not

watty

Only if Saorview boxes & TVs have DVB-T2 tuners.

Probably by 2012 or 2013 only DVB-T2 TVs & Set-boxes produced. But for now the majority of Irish compatible gear has no DVB-T2 hardware.

DVB-T2 Hardware can do DVB-T but not vice-versa.

PressTheButton

Saorview certified Triax TR 112 tuner is DVB-T with built-in obsolescence. Ah lads, I've only got mine two days!

lucernarian

RTE when planning the earlier DTT network used OSI data and some sort of coverage tool or other. Based on signal strengths of 61dBuV which is much higher than the 45dBuV cited here for the minimum receiving level of DTT receivers. I am not sure if the minimum level would increase for higher QAM constellations (i.e. QAM64 instead of QAM16) but in any case RTÉ seem to have picked the same value and transposed the resulting coverage onto google maps.

As I don't know enough about the conditions under which minimum signal strength for DVB-T is determined, I can't really comment on the significance of this difference except that RTÉ seem to be using conservative prediction values to account for local interference and suchlike. If local interference is not a problem (and it's one that can be avoided with good cable and a very directional aerial) then many places which are on the edge of coverage on that map but in white will actually have no problem receiving Saorview with a rooftop aerial. In towns this will be heavily complicated by the presence of large buildings or anywhere by the presence of large/thick trees.

The Cush

PressTheButton wrote: »

Saorview certified Triax TR 112 tuner is DVB-T with built-in obsolescence. Ah lads, I've only got mine two days!

I wouldn't worry, that box will be in the recycling centre long before it becomes obsolete.

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

RTE when planning the earlier DTT network used OSI data and some sort of coverage tool or other. Based on signal strengths of 61dBuV which is much higher than the 45dBuV cited here for the minimum receiving level of DTT receivers. I am not sure if the minimum level would increase for higher QAM constellations (i.e. QAM64 instead of QAM16) but in any case RTÉ seem to have picked the same value and transposed the resulting coverage onto google maps.

I don't know what parameters they use in the google coverage map, I've asked the question before. The only thing I've seen regarding this is from the Irish Indo last March

The online coverage mapping tool on the site, which allows consumers to check if they are covered by the Saorview service, was developed internally by RTENL.

http://www.independent.ie/business/media/rte-launch-switchover-campaign-for-its-saorview-digital-terrestrial-tv-service-2583035.html

Vince Cable

UK coverage criteria at 2.1 here

lucernarian

They used 61dBuV in the planning for Boxer/Easy TV/One Vision for a mux with identical transmission characteristics to the current Saorview muxes. I'd be very suprised if they changed the coverage contour to a different value for Saorview 2 years later.

rpm1966

Is the Monaghan transmitter also called 'Agahbog'? Is it fully operational now and tansmitting Irish DTT on Ch55? Is this from the site http://www.techtir.ie/tv-radio/Irish-DTT-Sites correct: Monaghan
Monaghan 55 ? ? ? H C/D ? 54.1107, -7.0143

lucernarian

I typed in "Monaghan" into here http://coverage.rtenl.ie/index.php Ch. 55, horizontal for mux 1. I forget on what channel Mux 2 is broadcast on.

Did you read even the last few posts of this thread?

And yes, I've heard Monaghan (Lugad) being referred to as Agahbog.

deaglan169

ch59 is mux 2, lugad is always referred to as aghabog around monaghan

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

All sites now officially live - http://www.saorview.ie/make-the-switch/coverage-checker/coverage-map/

Didn't think we'd be updating this thread again but as posted by marno21 4 further relay sites are to be added in Oct

Main Sites

• Cairn Hill Longford 47H
• Clermont Carn Louth 53V
• Dungarvan Waterford 55H
• Holywell Hill Donegal 30H
• Kippure Wicklow 54H
• Maghera Clare 48H
• Mount Leinster Carlow 45H
• Mullaghanish Cork 21H
• Spur Hill Cork 45H
• Three Rock Dublin 54H
• Truskmore Sligo 53H
• Woodcock Hill Clare (Limerick) 47H

Relay/Transposer Sites

• Achill Mayo 47V
• Arklow Wicklow 21V
• Arranmore Donegal 47V
• Ballybofey Donegal 47V
• Bantry Cork 52H&V
• Cahir Tipperary Sth. 28V
• Casla (RnaG) Galway 45V
• Castlebar Mayo 22H
• Castletownbere Kerry 55V
• Clifden Galway 26V
• Clonakilty Cork 48H
• Clonmel Waterford 55H
• Cnoc an Oir Kerry 47V
• Collins Barracks Cork 50V
• Crosshaven Cork 46V
• Dooncarton Belmullet, Mayo 27H&V
• Fanad Donegal 55V
• Fermoy Cork 52V
• Ferrypoint Waterford 47V
• Forth Mountain Wexford 52V
• Gallows Hill (Rathfadden) Waterford (City) 22V
• Glanmire Cork 47H
• Glencolmcille Donegal 45H
• Gorey Wexford 55H
• Greystones Wicklow 52V
• Kilduff Tipperary Nth. 52H
• Kilkeaveragh Kerry 47V
• Kinsale Cork 30V
• Knockmoyle Kerry 52V
• Laragh Wicklow 47H
• Letterkenny Donegal 53V
• Maamclassach Kerry 46V
• Magheraroarty Donegal 22V
• Malin Donegal 28H
• Mitchelstown Cork 40V
• Monaghan (Lugad) Monaghan 55H
• Moville Donegal 45H
• Suir Valley Waterford 52V
• Tonabrocky Galway 26V

Relay Sites to be added in 2012

• Bandon Cork
  
• Dingle Kerry
• Glenties Donegal
• Greenore Louth

Green = On-Air (24 May 2011) - 51 sites
Blue = Planned for Oct 2012 - 4 sites

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Relay Sites to be added in 2012

• Bandon Cork
  
• Dingle Kerry
• Glenties Donegal
• Greenore Louth

Green = On-Air (24 May 2011) - 51 sites
Blue = Planned for Oct 2012 - 4 sites

The 4 new DTT sites got a mention in the Dáil last week in a discussion on Saorview coverage

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): [...]

Work has been ongoing across the country to prepare the transmission sites for the move from analogue to digital terrestrial television. However, it is virtually impossible to cover 100% of the population by terrestrial means. Reasons for this include local topography, for example. While cover from a terrestrial network can never reach 100% of the population, RTE is conscious of the needs of communities and is making efforts to ensure areas with larger population centres are provided with the Saorview service. These areas include Glenties, Bandon, Carlingford and Dingle.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/04/25/00019.asp

The Cush

Another mention of the 4 new Saorview sites in the Dáil on Tuesday, won't be available until ASO on the 24th Oct.

Work has been ongoing across the country to prepare the transmission sites for the move from analogue to digital terrestrial television. However, it is virtually impossible to cover 100% of the population by terrestrial means. Reasons for this include local topography, for example. RTÉ is conscious of the needs of communities and is making efforts to ensure areas with larger population centres are provided with the Saorview service. To date, RTÉ has committed to improve coverage in the following areas: Glenties, Bandon, Carlingford and Dingle. Coverage improvements in these areas will not be possible until the analogue TV service is switched off.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/05/01/00235.asp#N2

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Relay Sites to be added in 2012

• Bandon Cork
  
• Dingle Kerry
• Glenties Donegal
• Greenore Louth

Green = On-Air (24 May 2011) - 51 sites
Blue = Planned for Oct 2012 - 4 sites

The date of completion and the channel numbers will be announced in the coming weeks. The frequency allocations will be within the same band as currently used for the analogue channels.

Saorview Tech & Trade
15 hours ago.

RTÉNL have announced that a further four transmitter sites will be upgraded to broadcast SAORVIEW later this year at Bandon, Dingle, Greenore and Glenties.

The date of completion and the channel numbers will be announced in the coming weeks.

The aerials that viewers are currently using in the coverage areas of these sites to receive analogue RTÉ One, RTÉ Two and TG4 will be within the correct band to receive SAORVIEW services from these sites, when they become available.

Watch this space for further details.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Saorview-Tech-Trade/329691340422770

The Cush

Updated list of DTT sites (thanks to marno21 over in the other thread for the new sites list)

Main Sites

• Cairn Hill Longford 47H
• Clermont Carn Louth 53V
• Dungarvan Waterford 55H
• Holywell Hill Donegal 30H
• Kippure Wicklow 54H
• Maghera Clare 48H
• Mount Leinster Carlow 45H
• Mullaghanish Cork 21H
• Spur Hill Cork 45H
• Three Rock Dublin 54H
• Truskmore Sligo 53H
• Woodcock Hill Clare (Limerick) 47H

Relay/Transposer Sites

• Achill Mayo 47V
• Arklow Wicklow 21V
• Arranmore Donegal 47V
• Ballybofey Donegal 47V
• Bantry Cork 52H&V
• Cahir Tipperary Sth. 28V
• Casla (RnaG) Galway 45V
• Castlebar Mayo 22H
• Castletownbere Kerry 55V
• Clifden Galway 26V
• Clonakilty Cork 48H
• Clonmel Waterford 55H
• Cnoc an Oir Kerry 47V
• Collins Barracks Cork 50V
• Crosshaven Cork 46V
• Dooncarton Belmullet, Mayo 27H&V
• Fanad Donegal 55V
• Fermoy Cork 52V
• Ferrypoint Waterford 47V
• Forth Mountain Wexford 52V
• Gallows Hill (Rathfadden) Waterford (City) 22V
• Glanmire Cork 47H
• Glencolmcille Donegal 45H
• Gorey Wexford 55H
• Greystones Wicklow 52V
• Kilduff Tipperary Nth. 52H
• Kilkeaveragh Kerry 47V
• Kinsale Cork 30V
• Knockmoyle Kerry 52V
• Laragh Wicklow 47H
• Letterkenny Donegal 53V
• Maamclassach Kerry 46V
• Magheraroarty Donegal 22V
• Malin Donegal 28H
• Mitchelstown Cork 40V
• Monaghan (Lugad) Monaghan 55H
• Moville Donegal 45H
• Suir Valley Waterford 52V
• Tonabrocky Galway 26V

Relay Sites to be added in 2012

• Bandon Cork 47H
  
• Dingle Kerry 30V
• Glenties Donegal 46H
• Greenore Louth 43V
  
• Mount Gabriel Cork ??H & V
• Leap Cork ??H
• Rosscarbery Cork ??H
• Drimoleague Cork ??V
• Timoleague Cork ??V
• Kilmacthomas Waterford ??V
• Ballina/Killaloe Clare ??V
• Ennistymon Clare ??H
• Clonmany Donegal ??V
  

Green = On-Air (24 May 2011) - 51 sites
Blue = Planned for Oct 2012 - 13 sites

lucernarian

I feel much better about Saorview coverage now that Mt. Gabriel, Kilmacthomas, Rosscarbery and Ennistymon will be added. I'm a little suprised at the addition of Clonmany, it serves a rather small area in Donegal which Malin would be able to partially cover.

roverdublin

For the South West it is really great and necessary that Mount Gabriel will be upgraded to DTT.
However, does anybody know when exactly Mount Gabriel will go online with transmitting the Digital Channels?

The Cush

roverdublin wrote: »

However, does anybody know when exactly Mount Gabriel will go online with transmitting the Digital Channels?

Haven't seen any official dates.

lawhec

According to RTÉNL's Saorview coverage checker, Three Rock will be changing from E54 to E30 on the 10th July.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I'm a little suprised at the addition of Clonmany, it serves a rather small area in Donegal which Malin would be able to partially cover.

Clonmany I understand is in a major coverage hole which has its own analogue relay at present. There was a similar political kerfuffle there as there was in S Cork.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

Clonmany I understand is in a major coverage hole which has its own analogue relay at present. There was a similar political kerfuffle there as there was in S Cork.

There was an article in the local Inishowen Independent and a Dáil question on it last Nov - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75270971#post75270971

lawhec wrote: »

According to RTÉNL's Saorview coverage checker, Three Rock will be changing from E54 to E30 on the 10th July.

Ch 30 is one its RRC06 allocations, no longer an SFN with Kippure. Moving it away from possible interference from mobile services in the digital dividend spectrum maybe. Easier to move frequencies than try to explain to such a large urban population that they might require a filter on their wideband aerials to eliminate possible interference when services start next year.

Less than 2 weeks to the change of frequency and no public notice, maybe they'll continue with the 2 frequencies for a period of time.

lawhec

The Cush wrote: »

Ch 30 is one its RRC06 allocations, no longer an SFN with Kippure. Moving it away from possible interference from mobile services in the digital dividend spectrum maybe. Easier to move frequencies than try to explain to such a large urban population that they might require a filter on their wideband aerials to eliminate possible interference when services start next year.

Less than 2 weeks to the change of frequency and no public notice, maybe they'll continue with the 2 frequencies for a period of time.

Surely if there are potential problems with 800Mhz frequencies affecting DVB-T transmissions on Ch 54, then most of the channels in the 50's could be potentially Donald Ducked, not to mention that some currently very high UHF frequencies (66-68) already lie close to GSM 900MHz frequencies anyway. Most concern at least in Britain about interference refers to Ch 60 where the guard band is quite small.

I'm sure RTÉNL are not simply moving frequencies for the sake of it though. The same frequencies were allocated to Three Rock and Kippure IIRC so it might not be impossible to see Kippure move in due course.

The Cush

lawhec wrote: »

Surely if there are potential problems with 800Mhz frequencies affecting DVB-T transmissions on Ch 54, then most of the channels in the 50's could be potentially Donald Ducked, not to mention that some currently very high UHF frequencies (66-68) already lie close to GSM 900MHz frequencies anyway. Most concern at least in Britain about interference refers to Ch 60 where the guard band is quite small.

I'm sure RTÉNL are not simply moving frequencies for the sake of it though.

During the Comreg Multi-spectrum auction consultation process RTÉ/RTÉNL expressed concerns about interference to DTT down to Ch 52. With the two Three-Rock frequencies (Chs 54/58) within that range and wideband aerials in general use it was the first thing that came to mind when you posted about the change of frequency, of course the reason could be entirely different.

Interference within the range should be easy enough to resolve with a filter/reduced group aerial but there could be the potential for viewer complaints to RTÉ/politicians, politician complaints to RTÉ etc. for the additional cost of resolving interference issues after the initial cost of having to upgrade to Saorview in the first place.

This from that consultation process

RTÉ and RTÉNL have found from a sample of 10 approved SAORVIEW receivers that performance (in terms of interference rejection of adjacent channel DTT signals) is broadly similar to, and as varied as, the samples given by Ofcom, and ECC Report 148. It should also be noted that the n+9 channel performance of some superhetrodyne receivers requires higher protection ratios at channels 52 to 55 (depending on which 800MHz block is in use). For example, several of the SAORVIEW receivers tested demonstrate poorer performance at channel 52 than at channel 59 (and only marginally better than channel 60 in one case), with respect to rejecting an interferer in the first adjacent block above 790MHz. This means that it is not always correct to assume that channels further away from 790MHz will experience less interference.

Studies carried out in the UK (June 2011) identify that channels 52 to 59 may also suffer interference but to a lesser extent than channel 60. Additionally, ComReg notes that the UK study assessed the susceptibility of interference based on the worst-case measured performance of DTT domestic receivers, and therefore the results of this study may overstate the potential issue;

lawhec wrote: »

The same frequencies were allocated to Three Rock and Kippure IIRC so it might not be impossible to see Kippure move in due course.

Different frequencies were allocated to Three-Rock and Kippure at RRC-06.

Sponge Bob

Interference is likely to be between 800mhz UPLINK frequencies ( return channel from phone to cell) where the PHONE signal is weak. It strikes me that this problem will be more common in rural areas where distances to cells/coverage will be more of an issue and will result in LTE devices upping their transmission power to compensate.

A very good explanation here. http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/949731/annexes/Dynamics-of-3GPP-LTE-uplink.pdf

I am not saying it did not play a part in Channel 30 being selected at 3Rock seeing as 3Rock is one of the main phone mast complexes in Dublin and was key to 088 coverage back in the day in the 800mhz band. However in the cities there will be a trend towards smaller mobile cells at 1800mhz and 2600mhz frequencies. From the conclusion in the link above.

For the case of continuous LTE UE interference transmission and a weak DTT signal of -70dBm, the minimum protection distance varied from 0.9 meters for the best receiver type to tens of meters for the worst performing receiver. For a stronger DTT signal of -50dBm, the analysis shows that most DTT receivers can operate within 1m of an interfering LTE UE. Some of the receiver types needed more separation, with the worst case receiver requiring a 6.5m separation. With a strong DTT signal of -30dBm, all but one of the receivers (the Can tuner 7 MHz) could operate within 1m of the LTE UE. For both continuous and discontinuous LTE interference transmission, DTT receivers with set top antennas required greater separation from LTE UEs than DTT receivers with roof top antennas. The MCL analysis shows that this is due to the elevation pattern of the DTT antenna, although in practice the walls of the building and height difference would help isolate the DTT antenna from UE interference. Since we assume a worst case of free space path loss and no obstructions for the interfering path, we can expect that roof top DTT receivers may still work well at smaller separation distances than those shown in this report. In this case, the dominant source of LTE interference may be from an alternate leakage between the indoor components, e.g., via the fly lead of the DTT. Such forms of interference have not been considered in this study.

Good quality drop cables from the wall to the TV will mitigate many of these issues....locating the TV socket higher up the wall behind the telly, thereby shielding the cable with the telly itself....would also make sense. Particularly out the country.

Dodgy 4G LTE outdoor 'signal boosters' will most likely be the biggest single problem.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Dodgy 4G LTE outdoor 'signal boosters' will most likely be the biggest single problem.

... and masthead amplifiers, wideband aerials etc.

Come next year, post ASO - post Comreg auction - post LTE launch, the forum may be busy with interference related problems.

Who'll pay for the public information campaign - RTÉ, Comreg, the Dept? We know the viewer will pay to fix the problem unlike the UK where £180m is avaliable from the government/mobile operators even though Freeview estimate it'll cost in the region of £200m.

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

RTÉ, Comreg, the Dept? We know the viewer will pay to fix the problem unlike the UK where £180m is avaliable from the government/mobile operators even though Freeview estimate it'll cost in the region of £200m.

The Irish public will be abandoned to their fate. It will not be RTEs fault and Comreg and the Dept will deny everything!

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Relay Sites to be added in 2012

• Bandon Cork 47H
  
• Dingle Kerry 30V
• Glenties Donegal 46H
• Greenore Louth 43V
• Mount Gabriel Cork ??H & V
• Leap Cork ??H
• Rosscarbery Cork ??H
• Drimoleague Cork ??V
• Timoleague Cork ??V
• Kilmacthomas Waterford ??V
• Ballina/Killaloe Clare ??V
• Ennistymon Clare ??H
• Clonmany Donegal ??V

New sites to be switched on in early Oct

Saorview Tech & Trade
July 02

The RTÉ Transmission Network (RTÉNL) has announced the following sites will be added to the SAORVIEW network. This brings the total number of sites to 64. Currently 51 sites are on the air, with the remaining 13 due to begin broadcasting in early October.

Carlingford, Co. Louth
Bandon, Co. Cork
Dingle, Co. Kerry
Glenties, Co. Donegal
Mount Gabriel, Co. Cork
Rosscarbery, Co. Cork
Leap, Co. Cork
Drimoleague, Co. Cork
Kilmacthomas, Co. Waterford
Clonmany, Co. Donegal
Ennistymon, Co. Clare
Timoleague, Co. Cork
Ballina, Co. Tipperary


http://www.facebook.com/pages/Saorview-Tech-Trade/329691340422770

Sponge Bob

Saorview are meeting the Installer and Box shifting trade in the North West this week.

Landmark Hotel, Dublin Road, Carrick-on-Shannon
Wednesday 4th July at 6.30pm

Harlequin Hotel, Lannagh Road, Castlebar
Thursday 5th July at 9.30am

It appears that a similar meeting in Cork in April had a LARGE bearing on the new transmitters announced for that area last week. Any reception issues NOT raised at those two meetings did not happen!



Then the Saorview staff are off to the countryside to meet with their people!

Bonniconlon Show: Monday 06th August 2012 (TBC)
Tullamore Show: Sunday 12th August
Virginia Agricultural Show: Wednesday 22nd August
National Ploughing Championships ( Wexford) September