List of Transposers/Relays upgraded to DTT?

lucernarian

I wonder when RTÉ will provide a list of ERPs like they do for analogue currently.

Does anyone feel that RTÉ will add to the list of 51 sites for DTT transmission regardless of how SaorSat fares out? There could well be public pressure brought to bear particularly when Saorsat installations will be more costly for people who have an aerial adequately served by a local relay, like in Ennistymon in Clare or Carlingford in Co. Louth. I'm not sure if some of these areas are served by an existing relay or not, but some bigger population centres I've also noticed with DTT coverage issues include:

Kilmacthomas, Waterford
Ballyragget, Kilkenny
Drogheda, Louth
in and around Skibbereen, Cork
Boyle, Roscommon


There were plans for a relay in Loughrea with the old 4-mux pay TV plan but with the height increase in Maghera and the coverage predictor on RTENL, I can't see the justification for one now.

There's also the issue of people only being allowed to have one dish on a house and this might cause problems between county councils and those who have regular Sky dishes already. Not having DTT coverage is a particular issue for apartment dwellers and this will be brought to bear in Drogheda especially. There's quite a lot of apartments in Drogheda which are unfortunately located along the river where even RTÉ FM coverage is somewhat weak.

It may not require too much expenditure for RTÉ to take 51 sites to 58 and aim for 99% population coverage instead of 98%.

Sponge Bob

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Does anyone feel that RTÉ will add to the list of 51 sites for DTT transmission regardless of how SaorSat fares out?

There will be a right sh1tstorm in places that get neither Saorview not Saorsat, I am thinking of Leenane in Galway which is in satelliet shadow owing to an ingorant mountain between them and the Saorview transmitter in Clifden and the Saorsat satellite, both.

In Norway ..admittedly a vastly more complex terrain for sat and dtt both...they have installed 500 satellite shadow transmitters alone on top of a regular dtt network comprising 43 main transmitters and 310 relays.

I would think that there are at least 20 locations in Ireland, where either a full relay must be installed ( eg Navan or Drogheda) or else a micro relay.

No way around it..unless they run FTTH instead which would be a much better and generally more robust long term solution. The south coast is a difficult terrain for DTT but will not have a problem with satellite shadow. Think Galway and Donegal in the main.

lucernarian

I was looking at Leenane on google maps earlier, it seemed to be fairly sparsely populated even by rural Irish standards so I didn't mention it.

Ah don't mind the poor plebs in Nyaavan, the topology of that town is generally more friendly and they have better coverage from Kippure/Three Rock and Cairn Hill. There's also a lower number of apartment blocks which are located along the river and many parts of Navan have cable too. Bias against Meath?! Never.

Cognisant of RTE's financial position it would be nice to see even 5 or 10 extra DTT relays and allow analogue rebroadcasting into the odd isolated valley here and there (self-help schemes), in a similar fashion to the Americans. PAL broadcasting isn't automatically banned by the EU on 1 January 2013.

Peter Rhea

Achill, Clifden & Kilduff showing as on now; http://coverage.rtenl.ie/RTENLcoveragechecker.php

STB

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I wonder when RTÉ will provide a list of ERPs like they do for analogue currently.

Does anyone feel that RTÉ will add to the list of 51 sites for DTT transmission regardless of how SaorSat fares out? There could well be public pressure brought to bear particularly when Saorsat installations will be more costly for people who have an aerial adequately served by a local relay, like in Ennistymon in Clare or Carlingford in Co. Louth. I'm not sure if some of these areas are served by an existing relay or not, but some bigger population centres I've also noticed with DTT coverage issues include:

Kilmacthomas, Waterford
Ballyragget, Kilkenny
Drogheda, Louth
in and around Skibbereen, Cork
Boyle, Roscommon


There were plans for a relay in Loughrea with the old 4-mux pay TV plan but with the height increase in Maghera and the coverage predictor on RTENL, I can't see the justification for one now.

There's also the issue of people only being allowed to have one dish on a house and this might cause problems between county councils and those who have regular Sky dishes already. Not having DTT coverage is a particular issue for apartment dwellers and this will be brought to bear in Drogheda especially. There's quite a lot of apartments in Drogheda which are unfortunately located along the river where even RTÉ FM coverage is somewhat weak.

It may not require too much expenditure for RTÉ to take 51 sites to 58 and aim for 99% population coverage instead of 98%.

What do you mean they have coverage issues ?

Is this from looking at a coverage map ?

Drogheda is served by CC. Any apartment complex worth their salt has shared outside aerials serving all apartments.

lucernarian

I'm not sure I follow you. Coverage issues are exactly that. Signal strengths in the central areas of Drogheda along the river are poor and Clermont Carn doesn't reach into that part well. Also, Tullyesker Hill blocks off Clermont Carn from the northwestern outskirts of Drogheda so Kippure VHF is better in that area. Cairn Hill is mainly used along the riverside but reception wouldn't be perfect on that either.

When VHF is switched off, these low lying areas will have trouble with DTT unless the promised power increases are significant. The number of multi-storey buildings along the Boyne exacerbate the problem.

I completely agree, apartment complexes should have a proper communal aerial set up but that sentiment won't change those stuck without one. A relay in Drogheda would solve more than just the shortsightedness of building developers. Not having a relay means lots of people need an outdoor aerial where a rabbits ears would have worked otherwise and that can be a signficant cost for those people who don't have the luxury of Chorus or Sky.

STB

DTT will get to places that analogue never did. It is infinetly more powerful.

People living in heavily concreted dwellings such as apartments need to make sure that there is a proper communal aerial system. Its not dear to implement.

You are also assuming that present DTT transmission power levels will stay stagnant. They wont. When analogue switches off, there will be more moves in this area accross the country.

lucernarian

Ah now, let's not be ridiculous. Nothing is "infinitely powerful" and DTT won't come close to it. I've installed aerials in Drogheda so I know a thing or two about existing analogue and DTT coverage and I've been in contact with RTENL over power increases and my info is that Three Rock/Kippure and Cairn Hill won't experience significant power increases.

So I'm definitely not forgetting about planned power increases. Have a look at the coverage map on RTENL, you'll see plenty of white spots and that coverage is based on an aerial with more gain than a standard contract, and at a height of 10 metres above ground level. DTT doesn't just have to work, it has to work reliably and with a margin able to deal with local EMI and any tropo ducting events that happen. The coverage map reflects that I think.

Do you feel that no place in Ireland needs any more TX sites even if RTÉ had the resources to provide them and Saorsat does go ahead?

Vince Cable

STB wrote: »

DTT will get to places that analogue never did. It is infinetly more powerful.

Digital transmissions can't work miracles.

There's nothing wrong with providing low(ish) powered relays to ensure populated areas are well covered.

STB

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Ah now, let's not be ridiculous. Nothing is "infinitely powerful" and DTT won't come close to it. I've installed aerials in Drogheda so I know a thing or two about existing analogue and DTT coverage and I've been in contact with RTENL over power increases and my info is that Three Rock/Kippure and Cairn Hill won't experience significant power increases.

So I'm definitely not forgetting about planned power increases. Have a look at the coverage map on RTENL, you'll see plenty of white spots and that coverage is based on an aerial with more gain than a standard contract, and at a height of 10 metres above ground level. DTT doesn't just have to work, it has to work reliably and with a margin able to deal with local EMI and any tropo ducting events that happen. The coverage map reflects that I think.

Do you feel that no place in Ireland needs any more TX sites even if RTÉ had the resources to provide them and Saorsat does go ahead?

Infinitely: The power required by a DTT TX over that of analogue to serve the same population area is 1 is to 5. The main DTT TXs operate 7db below and relative to analogue ERP.

The main TX sites arent running at full power mainly as a direct result of the high power analogue tx's also being on. Additionaly, distant analogue signals on nearby frequencies can according to weather conditions reflect off the ionosphere to introduce more interference. In relation to CC, ASO is being co-cordinated with NI ASO so I would imagine that you will see significant improvements at CC come ASO.

RTEs have been carrying out a lot of work over the last year with the ultimate goal of achieving its mandate of 98% coverage by 31 December 2011 with ASO to begin in 2012.

Yes there will be 2% that could never be serviced by small infill tx's. The whole idea of Saorsat (which will appear over this Summer) will be to fill those fringe areas (as well as anyone who wants to recive it that way) and cut down on the prohibitive costs of servicing every nook and cranny of the Island by infill TXs.

I dont think Drogheda Town Centre fits into the Saorsat programme! It will be served adequately by CC DTT, at least that seems to be RTE NLs plan.

I am sure they will listen to suitable reception reports.

The Cush

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Achill, Clifden & Kilduff showing as on now; http://coverage.rtenl.ie/RTENLcoveragechecker.php

Thanks for the update, only 4 sites remaining.

Monaghan reported as testing, Aranmore as posted here recently will be available by the end of May (or earlier). No information on Letterkenny and Cnoc an Oir.

Thread list updated

Main Sites

• Cairn Hill Longford 47H
• Clermont Carn Louth 53V
• Dungarvan Waterford 55H
• Holywell Hill Donegal 30H
• Kippure Wicklow 54H
• Maghera Clare 48H
• Mount Leinster Carlow 45H
• Mullaghanish Cork 21H
• Spur Hill Cork 45H
• Three Rock Dublin 54H
• Truskmore Sligo 53H
• Woodcock Hill Clare (Limerick) 47H

Relay/Transposer Sites

• Achill Mayo 47V
• Arklow Wicklow 21V
• Arranmore Donegal 47V
• Ballybofey Donegal 47V
• Bantry Cork 52H&V
• Cahir Tipperary Sth. 28V
• Casla (RnaG) Galway 45V
• Castlebar Mayo 22H
• Castletownbere Kerry 55V
• Clifden Galway 26V
• Clonakilty Cork 48H
• Clonmel Waterford 55H
• Cnoc an Oir Kerry 47V
• Collins Barracks Cork 50V
• Crosshaven Cork 46V
• Dooncarton Belmullet, Mayo 27H&V
• Fanad Donegal 55V
• Fermoy Cork 52V
• Ferrypoint Waterford 47V
• Forth Mountain Wexford 52V
• Gallows Hill (Rathfadden) Waterford (City) 22V
• Glanmire Cork 47H
• Glencolmcille Donegal 45H
• Gorey Wexford 55H
• Greystones Wicklow 52V
• Kilduff Tipperary Nth. 52H
• Kilkeaveragh Kerry 47V
• Kinsale Cork 30V
• Knockmoyle Kerry 52V
• Laragh Wicklow 47H
• Letterkenny Donegal 53V
• Maamclassach Kerry 46V
• Magheraroarty Donegal 22V
• Malin Donegal 28H
• Mitchelstown Cork 40V
• Monaghan (Lugad) Monaghan 55H
• Moville Donegal 45H
• Suir Valley Waterford 52V
• Tonabrocky Galway 26V

Green = On-Air (03 May 2011) - 47 sites
Blue = Planned by Mid 2011 - 4 sites

I'm in Kerry at the moment with LOS to Knockanore. Tried to pick it up earlier and no dice. So nothing as of yet.

lucernarian

Ok, let me mention that the 4-multiplex plan did include a relay for Drogheda, as did a ministerial statement when RTÉ were to go it alone but in the past year, RTÉ opted against installing a transposer in Drogheda. The equipment that was apparently contracted for on the eTenders website must have gone to a different site, perhaps Forth Mountain or Malin or suchlike.

I can't see how you know that Drogheda will be covered when RTENL themselves say it won't be completely covered under Saorview and none of us here know to what extent RTÉ will increase powers in Clermont Carn in particular. As it stands, the final DTT antenna hasn't even been put in place yet! The directivity of that will influence what coverage will be like in comparison to analogue. It is my understanding that ASO will result in an increase in power of something of the order of 6dB and if that were the case, I can say with certainty that there will be reception issues in a number of locations in the Boyne valley. We don't know yet until ASO happens. Even if there was a 10dB increase, there still would be isolated spots where a reliable DTT signal would be hard to get. That doesn't mean RTÉ should go to the expense of providing a relay.

My view is perhaps the sheer number of people who will benefit by not having to pay for expensive aerial installs is a better justification. Many people in Dublin for example are reaping the benefits of DTT that's broadcasting at a higher absolute ERP than analogue on the same site.

The main TXs are not running at full power because of clearance issues with UK authorities and the fact that RTENL haven't finished building the network and assessing performance yet, not because of analogue broadcasts within the state. Thanks to VHF and the SFN with Kippure and Three Rock and relays not using their TV3 allocation (like with Castlebar), there is plenty of room for DTT with existing Analogue broadcasts.

In any case, describing something as infinitely more powerful than anything else is absurd. RTENL have hardly tried to divide by zero;)

Sponge Bob

Saorsat will work fine in certain areas with weak DTT signals and multiswitches exist that will allow ka/ku integration as long as no H/V polrity signals are sent... mainly in the states though.

There will be fun with pesky sky boxes that do not support Diseqc of course but there are 'burst generators' out there

However there are areas where neither Saorsat nor Saorview will work, generally in the west.

lucernarian

I just hope that Saorsat will actually be taken up by RTÉ, €3 million p/a is the price tag IIRC. Quite a lot of money for the state broadcaster in these recessionary times. And even then, planning laws might force people to pick Saorsat or Freesat, barring some budget torodial dishes arriving on the market. That's for another thread of course.

Sponge Bob

Sounds a tad high , Eutelsat reckon Ka Sat will deliver €100m revenue across its 80 spots in 2012 or €1.25m per spot. Saorsat will only use a fraction of a spot. It may eventually cost €3m if they are running 6 muxes worth of traffic on that spot but I suspect it will cost €1m for 2 muxes worth at most...pro rata.

As much as 1 x Pat Kenny

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I just hope that Saorsat will actually be taken up by RTÉ, €3 million p/a is the price tag IIRC.

€1.5 million according to RTÉ

Deputy Liz McManus: What will that provision cost RTE?

Mr. Conor Hayes: A limited amount, which is detailed in the document we have supplied the committee. It will cost us approximately €1.5 million per year. We can manage it. As other channels come on board, part of the cost will be defrayed. In light of the security this option provides and the ability to supply to the 2% of the population who do not currently receive public service television, the cost can be adequately justified. We might have a different take on the situation were the cost €20 million or €25 million, but the actual amount is appropriate and reasonable.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/MAJ/2010/07/14/00003.asp

lucernarian

Thanks for the clarification! Apologies for being too lazy to look back over the thread had on the subcommittee presentation by Conor Hayes.

I still feel wary about the likelihood of the plan, it's almost too good to be true! The delay hasn't inspired confidence either.

STB

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

.............................. blah blah

In any case, describing something as infinitely more powerful than anything else is absurd. RTENL have hardly tried to divide by zero;)

So you have come around to the reality that the main sites are not on full power then ? A little change from a few posts back.

It is €1.5m as The Cush said.

Yes Drogheda was in the original list. It was dropped some time ago which has also been widely known (it wasnt the only one).

For your information a sizeable proportion of the country will require an outdoor aerial.

Look I'm not here to convince you or debate every point! Its the plan for now, unless you can convince frequency planners and techs otherwise.

I get the impression that you dont want to hear anyway or seem to know better! Perhaps, it would be infinetly better to leave it at that

Sponge Bob

If it is €1.5m for 6 muxes worth then 2 muxes worth will cost maybe €500-700k.

lucernarian

I said that Three Rock and Cairn Hill will not experience significant power increases, and that I suspect Clermont Carn will have a power increase of 6dB. I see I didn't explicitly mention Clermont Carn in one sentence but I should have as I was only talking about CC when analogue switch-off happens, as one of your points was primarily based on that transmitter's ERP increase. The two statements aren't mutually exclusive. My earlier points and discussion was about the 4 main sites which variously "cover" Drogheda. I'm merely going on what RTENL themselves have told me when I say there will not be significant ERP increases on those sites except CC.

I have to say though, putting a word in bold doesn't make it more accurate or as a justification. I'm only looking to see if the facts stand up or not and letter font won't change that.

I know too well unfortunately that many places need an outdoor aerial and that RTENL have listed 51 sites for DTT and that Drogheda was one of 2 or 3 others (Skerries and some other one IIRC) which were planned and tendered for,only a year ago mind, and which subsequently were dropped for inconclusive reasons.

My conclusion remains that Clermont Carn will not adequately cover all of Drogheda and this is borne out by RTENL's previous intentions for a relay there, my own experience, RTENL's own coverage map and (in my opinion/RTENL's expectation) likely ERPs from the 4 UHF main transmitters. Though if RTENL's own coverage map from the aforementioned frequency planners and techs doesn't convince you then nothing will.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If it is €1.5m for 6 muxes worth then 2 muxes worth will cost maybe €500-700k.

Saorview/Saorsat has nothing to do with the 4 commercial muxes, they will be the responsibility of the commercial multiplex operator. The pay DTT process had ended when Conor Hayes made his presentation to the Dáil committee last July.

The €1.5 million applies to the RTÉ services carried with costs to RTÉ reducing as other channels come onboard.

Mr. Conor Hayes: ...
It will cost us approximately €1.5 million per year. We can manage it. As other channels come on board, part of the cost will be defrayed.

Sponge Bob

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I Drogheda was one of 2 or 3 others (Skerries and some other one IIRC)

Navan was the other one of note.

Having said all that they were conceived at a time when Kippure/3Rock were supposed to be an SFN and if that SFN plan was abandoned then timing issues were not important any more.

Other transmitters were abandoned or moved as well for perfectly sound reasons like Loughrea ( Maghera mast was lifted instead) and Galway ...went to Tonabrocky up on a height not on RTE HQ down in the city itself.

But I do think that Drogheda will be the largest town in Ireland with potential reception issues....except that we will not know for sure for 2 years. It will be the largest town in Ireland where rabbits ears won't work ...possibly along with Swords.

Every other similarly sized town has a DTT TX nearby, Galway , Cork ( 2), Dublin, Waterford, Limerick , Clonmel , Sligo , Dundalk, Letterkenny, Tralee (2), Ennis, Naas etc . Some are very powerful if not nearby, eg Truskmore<>Sligo and Kippure <> Naas.

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

The €1.5 million applies to the RTÉ services carried with costs to RTÉ reducing as other channels come onboard.

So €1.5m is RTE Saorsat costs ( minus incoming TG4 and TV3/E3 contributions) Cush ???

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

So €1.5m is RTE Saorsat costs ( minus incoming TG4 and TV3/E3 contributions) Cush ???

I'd guess it includes TG4 as a PSB, will TV3/3e pay for 2% Saorsat coverage?

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

will TV3/3e pay for 2% Saorsat coverage?

Depends on how it is 'bundled' doesn't it. :cool: Tell Mcredmond it is just like the most expensive line rental in the world which was his invention in eircom. Ya just gotta pay it.

TV3 don't even pay for what can correctly be described as coffee in their own offices.

lucernarian

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Navan was the other one of note.

Having said all that they were conceived at a time when Kippure/3Rock were supposed to be an SFN and if that SFN plan was abandoned then timing issues were not important any more.

Other transmitters were abandoned or moved as well for perfectly sound reasons like Loughrea ( Maghera mast was lifted instead) and Galway ...went to Tonabrocky up on a height not on RTE HQ down in the city itself.

But I do think that Drogheda will be the largest town in Ireland with potential reception issues....except that we will not know for sure for 2 years. It will be the largest town in Ireland where rabbits ears won't work ...possibly along with Swords.

Every other similarly sized town has a DTT TX nearby, Galway , Cork ( 2), Dublin, Waterford, Limerick , Clonmel , Sligo , Dundalk, Letterkenny, Tralee (2), Ennis, Naas etc . Some are very powerful if not nearby, eg Truskmore<>Sligo and Kippure <> Naas.

Yes, parts of Swords will be a little tricky particularly along the valley running through Swords. Having said that, FM coverage has always been decent throughout Swords for me.

Here's the post with some of the initial relay/greenfield sites RTÉ intended to equip for DTT: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63483757&postcount=2

Tipperary town was also left out at the last minute. I don't know the area at all but looking at the map, Mullaghanish, Mt. Leinster, Clonmel, Woodcock Hill in particular and possibly Kilduff seem to offer coverage depending on what window you'd look out or what wall an aerial was to be mounted on:) The Saorview map looks okay but it looks like the whole town is borderline on the map, the bits out of coverage are not in worse terrain than those bits that are. When the Mt. Leinster mast replacement is completed it could make a crucial difference. No Preseli to interfere either!

Would timing faults have any bearing on whether Skerries/Drogheda/Navan got a relay? I thought a loss of sync would lead to more dramatic problems across the jointly-served area.

For what it's worth, at my folks house Three Rock/Kippure on Ch. 54 seems to be weaker than it was in the heady days of the MPEG2 trial. I can no longer pick it up on a log periodic in the garage when this used to be the case. Cairn Hill (Ch 47) on the other hand seems to be more powerful now than when DTT first started up there.

Antenna

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Tralee (2)

What are the two transmiters for Tralee? I see only one

Sponge Bob

Antenna wrote: »

What are the two transmiters for Tralee? I see only one

Plus Mullaghanish on full power, think of them legacy TV3 aerials

Ronnie Raygun

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Having said all that they were conceived at a time when Kippure/3Rock were supposed to be an SFN and if that SFN plan was abandoned then timing issues were not important any more.

Supposed to be SFN; how are they operating at present?

Do they use the same 1/32 GI as other txs?