Love/Hate [** Spoilers **]

Happyman42

It's clear from the last few pages that the problem is that there is a 'lack' in the writing which is bringing the series down.
There shouldn't be confusion. Ambiguity, if it serves the story, absolutely. But confusion comes from bad writing.

There is no clear motivation for Nidge to have Wayne clipped in the way it happened at that point. Patrick is still a threat and as said before, Fran would not be looking for corroborating witnesses if Patrick told him what he knows. If anything, we should have seen Nidge seeking out Patrick more. And it was just silly that he chose Elmo (whom he suspects, you know, the paranoia thing?) to be involved.
It was just badly thought through in the context of the story, and I think Wayne was sacrificed for a bit of titillation and shock in the last episode.

Because we have had episodes of good and bad writing we are now forced to wait a year before we get to see if the final was good in context writing or just more confusing motivations.

ThisRegard

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's clear from the last few pages that the problem is that there is a 'lack' in the writing which is bringing the series down.

The lack is in the comprehension of people, I don't think there's any ambiguity in the writing.

Benteke

We won't know if it's bad writing until the next season, For all we know their was a reason Nidge got himself locked up, It's the waiting to find out that is the killer

walshb

Happyman42 wrote: »

I

There is no clear motivation for Nidge to have Wayne clipped in the way it happened at that point. Patrick is still a threat and as said before, Fran would not be looking for corroborating witnesses if Patrick told him what he knows. If anything, we should have seen Nidge seeking out Patrick more. And it was just silly that he chose Elmo (whom he suspects, you know, the paranoia thing?) to be involved.
.

Why can't we just assume that Wayne was done because Nidge wanted him done for the threat he made with Lizzy on his life? Used him for a wee while, it didn't work out, now kill the snake for daring to take me out.

RoryMac

Wayne was getting clipped no matter what the outcome of the traveller hit was. There was no bond between Nidge and Wayne, he was simply a guy that Nidge could bring to the hit that wouldn't ask questions as to why they were after the traveller.

Once that was out of the way Wayne was always getting clipped to pay for coming into Nidge's house.

Not sure why there's confusion but it's certainly not down to the writing.

kfallon

Had to laugh at the bit where Fran says to the dentist when he's on the floor, "Hey bollixy" :pac:

And on the whole paper bag thing, even if the dentist had poked a hole thru it, do you think Fran would have said, "Ah look at that there now Deano, fair play to him, sure we'll let him live now!".....he'd have just strangled/choked him with something else or beaten him to death!

Happyman42

ThisRegard wrote: »

The lack is in the comprehension of people, I don't think there's any ambiguity in the writing.

walshb wrote: »

Why can't we just assume that Wayne was done because Nidge wanted him done for the threat he made with Lizzy on his life? Used him for a wee while, it didn't work out, now kill the snake for daring to take me out.

RoryMac wrote: »

Wayne was getting clipped no matter what the outcome of the traveller hit was. There was no bond between Nidge and Wayne, he was simply a guy that Nidge could bring to the hit that wouldn't ask questions as to why they were after the traveller.

Once that was out of the way Wayne was always getting clipped to pay for coming into Nidge's house.

Not sure why there's confusion but it's certainly not down to the writing.

I totally agree that Nidge ordered the hit for the reasons stated, my point is why was it so confused, and the reason is imo that it lacked a credible motivation true to the context of the story. And that has been a consistent problem with this particular series.

And 'ah sure, thats what gansters are like', really isn't a defence here. Whatever gansters are like, there is a believable story to be told here.

walshb

kfallon wrote: »

And on the whole paper bag thing, even if the dentist had poked a hole thru it, do you think Fran would have said, "Ah look at that there now Deano, fair play to him, sure we'll let him live now!".....he'd have just strangled/choked him with something else or beaten him to death!

That's completely separate. Any man wanting to live would have ripped the bag.

walshb

Happyman42 wrote: »

I totally agree that Nidge ordered the hit for the reasons stated, my point is why was it so confused, and the reason is imo that it lacked a credible motivation true to the context of the story. And that has been a consistent problem with this particular series.
d here.

Well, I am guessing that Nidge figured he'd better do it sooner rather than later. With a volatile character like Wayne using the later method could prove very damaging. Get rid and fast! Knew too much, unpredictable, and capable of switching at a moments notice.

Happyman42

walshb wrote: »

Well, I am guessing that Nidge figured he'd better do it sooner rather than later. With a volatile character like Wayne using the later method could prove very damaging. Get rid and fast! Knew too much, unpredictable, and capable of switching at a moments notice.

Which is fine, as long as you don't drop the strand about the primary target 'Patrick' like a hot potato?
If we had even seen Nidge witnessing him driving on to the ferry or being told that Patrick had left, then it would not have been as confusing.
We saw him touring the estate after all, but that was just to make us think that the conversation with Elmo ('get the kid to do it?') was about another attempt on Patrick's life.
They simply dropped that strand of the story after Wayne was hit, like they so wilingly drop other strands, like LIzzie. How does Nidge know that she is still not a threat for instance? She may be out on bail etc. How would he know what was happening with here, wouldn't somebody suffering from paranoia be seen to at least make enquiries?
Just very confused writing, that would be generally cleared up at a good and rigorous script conference or edit.

Kenny Logins

Happyman42 wrote: »

Which is fine, as long as you don't drop the strand about the primary target 'Patrick' like a hot potato?
If we had even seen Nidge witnessing him driving on to the ferry or being told that Patrick had left, then it would not have been as confusing.
We saw him touring the estate after all, but that was just to make us think that the conversation with Elmo ('get the kid to do it?') was about another attempt on Patrick's life.
They simply dropped that strand of the story after Wayne was hit, like they so wilingly drop other strands, like LIzzie. How does Nidge know that she is still not a threat for instance? She may be out on bail etc. How would he know what was happening with here, wouldn't somebody suffering from paranoia be seen to at least make enquiries?
Just very confused writing, that would be generally cleared up at a good and rigorous script conference or edit.

The house was boarded up, it was clear Patrick had left.

Happyman42

Kenny Logins wrote: »

The house was boarded up, it was clear Patrick had left.

What we saw was the boarded up house, then Patrick obviously at the back of a house. At that point in the programme that said to me that he had taken protective steps in boarding the front windows and doors.

Nidgeweasel

kfallon wrote: »

How in the name of Jaysus do people not see that Nidge clearly ordered the hit on Wayne?

If he didn't then why was he looking for a gun that wasn't there under the bin when Glenn clipped him?

I think it was the clip of nidge straight after you know, head in hands looked dissaspointed or whatever. I actually didn't click straight off (suffering with a bastard of a hangover) was more in shock as to this kid being killed out the blue. I thought then that Wayne had told guinea about the new hit, he'd gotted annoyed after the wheelie incident and got there first.

Obviously though, waybe couldn't have told him about the gun as he didn't know and it was a set up. I really liked that character you know. A shame.

channelsurfer2

at this stage I wonder will rte/carolan decide season 5 should be the last season and go out with a bang.

RoryMac

Happyman42 wrote: »

I totally agree that Nidge ordered the hit for the reasons stated, my point is why was it so confused, and the reason is imo that it lacked a credible motivation true to the context of the story. And that has been a consistent problem with this particular series.

And 'ah sure, thats what gansters are like', really isn't a defence here. Whatever gansters are like, there is a believable story to be told here.

I don't agree that the Wayne story was confused, Nidge was never going to let someone who tried to kill him live. It would be a sign of weakness that he can not afford, you could see the reaction of the rest of the gang to Nidge letting him walk away after the guards had stopped them with him in the boot.

I think the dropping of the Patrick story was also obvious, he left the country. Nidge went himself to see the house and once he saw it boarded up there was not much else he could do.

The writing is by no means perfect but it's not nearly as confused as being made out

Kenny Logins

Happyman42 wrote: »

What we saw was the boarded up house, then Patrick obviously at the back of a house. At that point in the programme that said to me that he had taken protective steps in boarding the front windows and doors.

Yeah, and the conversation was about not going back to the house, with Patrick saying he couldn't.

Happyman42

RoryMac wrote: »

I don't agree that the Wayne story was confused, Nidge was never going to let someone who tried to kill him live. It would be a sign of weakness that he can not afford, you could see the reaction of the rest of the gang to Nidge letting him walk away after the guards had stopped them with him in the boot.

I think the dropping of the Patrick story was also obvious, he left the country. Nidge went himself to see the house and once he saw it boarded up there was not much else he could do.

The writing is by no means perfect but it's not nearly as confused as being made out

So, he ignores the continuing threat from two major sources, Patrick and Lizzie (he had seen with his own eyes that Lizzie had entered his house with the gun and a lesser armed cohort) and takes out a small fry that could only do him limited damage?
The writers knew that Patrick had left the country, Nidge didn't, not in the story we where told anyway. Would he not have even been paranoid that Patrick had already gotten to and told Fran?
It was at the very least, bad storytelling and chronically confused.

Ash.J.Williams

Love hate is guilty of one thing.

They changed the format .....1m viewers expected somewhat of a climax. Instead it rolls into S5. Hence the backlash. After 3 seasons of the same format it changed without warning. I think that messed up the story a little. I think people could be forgiven for expecting S4 to end in a similar fashion to the others.

Ash.J.Williams

Happyman42 wrote: »

So, he ignores the continuing threat from two major sources, Patrick and Lizzie (he had seen with his own eyes that Lizzie had entered his house with the gun and a lesser armed cohort) and takes out a small fry that could only do him limited damage?
The writers knew that Patrick had left the country, Nidge didn't, not in the story we where told anyway. Would he not have even been paranoid that Patrick had already gotten to and told Fran?
It was at the very least, bad storytelling and chronically confused.

did nidge and wayne not pay patrick a visit? I thought wayne told nidge patrick was gone/

Ash.J.Williams

it is true there were many plots left hanging, but i take it we are to assume that S5 is a continuation.

Happyman42

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Yeah, and the conversation was about not going back to the house, with Patrick saying he couldn't.

FWIR we saw the boarded up house and the cutaway to Patrick in a back garden. Yes he was saying he couldn't go back to the house but that info wasn't available to Nidge. We where still made to believe he was ordering a further hit on Patrick in the conversation with Elmo.
Unneccessarily confusing imo and what difference (only the need to 'shock') would it have made (it would have underscored the fabled comeday go day paranoia) to hear Nidge coldly ordering a hit on Wayne? It's what he did after all.

AnonoBoy

Happyman42 wrote: »

FWIR we saw the boarded up house and the cutaway to Patrick in a back garden. Yes he was saying he couldn't go back to the house but that info wasn't available to Nidge. We where still made to believe he was ordering a further hit on Patrick in the conversation with Elmo.
Unneccessarily confusing imo and what difference (only the need to 'shock') would it have made (it would have underscored the fabled comeday go day paranoia) to hear Nidge coldly ordering a hit on Wayne? It's what he did after all.

It's a plot twist. If you tell the people in advance what's going to happen then it won't be a twist.

Imhof Tank

Many of the recent posts on this thread support the calls for a sub forum. There could be threads on a sub forum for those slow on the uptake or seeking back story info.

I think when Wayne initially turned, Nidge did indeed see him as a protégée. Nidge lost confidence however when he saw him hanging out all laughs and slagging with his mates. There is a brief shot of Wayne larking about as Nidge exits the brassers at the beginning of the episode – that conveys he had been mulling over the issue and had made a decision – bye bye Wayne.

Favourite scene of the episode was Nidge and Tommy’s chat outside the warehouse re Darren. First Nidge (and the viewer) thinks maybe Tommy has been playing possum all along and knows everything. Then the line something like: “d’ja not do tha’ no?” without any menace, just making small talk to pass the time. Nidge keeps the bluff going, but knows then that Aido/ Elmo have blabbed so basically the whole town probably knows what went down. Not good for the paranoia.

This show is one of the best I can remember. I think it is as close to 100% perfect as it would be possible to get. Leaving issues semi unresolved is a good thing and encourages debate on interpretation. Some of the critics are above that and prefer packaged up stories, better still if they have successfully predicted very obvious plot outcomes. Where they fail it has to be because the writing was sloppy or the producers have missed “continuity errors” and whatnot.

A lot happens off screen as well – who financed the shipment? What were the terms of payment? How was Guinea identified as the man for the Wayne job? These are not plot holes - just because they don’t explain the As, Bs and Cs doesn’t mean the writers overlooked these aspects.

Most significant dialog was surely in the “what goes around comes around” scene. OK, at its most obvious this sounds bad for the Weaselhole and I see many have duly predicted this outcome. Probably a lot more nuanced though.

Imhof Tank

Happyman42 wrote: »

FWIR we saw the boarded up house and the cutaway to Patrick in a back garden. Yes he was saying he couldn't go back to the house but that info wasn't available to Nidge. We where still made to believe he was ordering a further hit on Patrick in the conversation with Elmo.
Unneccessarily confusing imo and what difference (only the need to 'shock') would it have made (it would have underscored the fabled comeday go day paranoia) to hear Nidge coldly ordering a hit on Wayne? It's what he did after all.

You weren't "made to believe" anything. You chose to go with the most obvious interpretation, assuming wrongly that everything of importance happens on screen. Its not a documentary.

Kenny Logins

AnonoBoy wrote: »

It's a plot twist. If you tell the people in advance what's going to happen then it won't be a twist.

RoryMac

Happyman42 wrote: »

So, he ignores the continuing threat from two major sources, Patrick and Lizzie (he had seen with his own eyes that Lizzie had entered his house with the gun and a lesser armed cohort) and takes out a small fry that could only do him limited damage?
The writers knew that Patrick had left the country, Nidge didn't, not in the story we where told anyway. Would he not have even been paranoid that Patrick had already gotten to and told Fran?
It was at the very least, bad storytelling and chronically confused.

He took out the person he could get to, we assume Lizzie is still locked up and have no other reason to think differently.

With Patrick again we assume that Nidge has heard he has left the country and goes to the house to check for himself.

As I said before the writing isn't perfect but from what has been shown we know these things. I think the writer over-stretched this season introducing some many stories and I don't think they were all wrapped up as well as they should have been but the I don't think there were any big holes left either. Some things were left for us to work out but I think we got all of the info needed to do that.

Happyman42 wrote: »

FWIR we saw the boarded up house and the cutaway to Patrick in a back garden. Yes he was saying he couldn't go back to the house but that info wasn't available to Nidge. We where still made to believe he was ordering a further hit on Patrick in the conversation with Elmo.
Unneccessarily confusing imo and what difference (only the need to 'shock') would it have made (it would have underscored the fabled comeday go day paranoia) to hear Nidge coldly ordering a hit on Wayne? It's what he did after all.

As said it was a plot twist and very well done imo

Happyman42

Imhof Tank wrote: »

You weren't "made to believe" anything. You chose to go with the most obvious interpretation, assuming wrongly that everything of importance happens on screen. Its not a documentary.

We can't go much further if you can't see that the intention was to make us believe that the hit was on anybody but Wayne.
No problem with that btw, as long as the story strand (Nidge and Patrick) isn't dropped without explanation. Anybody genuinely paranoid would not let it lie.
It was a plot twist designed only to shock cheaply imo and detracted from and confused the story.

AnonoBoy

Happyman42 wrote: »

It was a plot twist designed only to shock cheaply imo and detracted from and confused the story.

It didn't confuse the story at all.

Are you just saying that because it annoyed you that you didn't see it coming?

Happyman42

AnonoBoy wrote: »

It didn't confuse the story at all.

Are you just saying that because it annoyed you that you didn't see it coming?

Just from reading this thread, it patently did confuse the story.
I don't watch attempting to predict the story arc, I watch for the story.
As it happens, I did think Wayne was going to be taken out and was going to his death. I didn't predict the how though.

A.Partridge

I'm a fan of the show but I did have one little bit of a query as to why on earth Nidge chose to have Wayne snuffed out?

Remember in the previous episode Nidge and the boys were found to have Wayne bundled in to the boot of a car.

Ok they got away with that because the young lad said it was a bit of messing.

But still, I would have thought that when Wayne's body was found shot that the first person on the gardai suspect list would have been Nidge?



Anybody think the same?