Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Isn't your point kind of valid for anyone traveling to any station along the Maynooth route? it's not exactly unique to Broombridge or a reason neglect the potential interchange value of this station.

The majority of people using the Maynooth line are making single trips, and have a clear knowledge of how long it takes to get to/from the station. They won't have that with LUAS as the service is not timetabled.

They're also mostly travelling from the city centre, from where bus alternatives exist in the event of missing a train. That's not something that's even remotely available from Broombridge.

If the frequency on the train line were at a higher level (minimum every 15 minutes) then I could see more people using it to change outbound off-peak, but as it isn't (and won't be for some time) I can only really see off peak usage being an inbound phenomenon in any great numbers, and even then due to having to pay two fares I don't think it's going to be significant.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

I would think that putting in lifts and a new bridge, as previously indicated, would be a core feature of a revamped station.

And a revamped station is far from idealistic, it should be seen as a basic element of Luas' arrival to the area. Indeed, ministers etc talked up the station as a transfer point.

Monument for the second time - I never mentioned lifts/bridge at any point, nor was I discussing them, nor was I responding to any post mentioning them. Please stop trying to put words into my posts that I didn't use.

Politicians tend to make grandiose statements about all sorts of things, but I would never use that as a justification. The fact remains that the official document backing up the LUAS BXD extension (i.e. the business case) specifically does not see large numbers using it as an interchange.

You're seriously losing any credibility that you may have in my eyes if you are taking what a Minister may say as a form of justification for any capital investment project.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Monument for the second time - I never mentioned lifts/bridge at any point, nor was I discussing them, nor was I responding to any post mentioning them. Please stop trying to put words into my posts that I didn't use.

I'm not trying to put words in your post, it's just that lifts etc would be a, if not the central part of a station revamp.

There would be limited or no other major costs... If you're not against lifts being put in place in the short term, what part a revamp are you against happening in the short term?

lxflyer wrote: »

Politicians tend to make grandiose statements about all sorts of things, but I would never use that as a justification. The fact remains that the official document backing up the LUAS BXD extension (i.e. the business case) specifically does not see large numbers using it as an interchange.

You're seriously losing any credibility that you may have in my eyes if you are taking what a Minister may say as a form of justification for any capital investment project.

I'm not using it as justification, I've outlined why connections are important in their own right.

On the other hand, call me lacking credibility, old fashioned or whatever, but I still think ministers should be held to account. And I don't think it's grandiose statement to be talking about the benefits of a connected rail / light rail network, it's something I want to see our TDs and ministers understand and talk about more, not less.

The business case for Luas originally massively underestimated the demand and we also have branch lines with poor performance, so I'm not really sure that official Luas documentation is the best thing to always go on. Promoting transfers is also something which is more NTA scope, the RPA had integrated ticketing in their hands for long enough with little progress. To be fair, they were never really set up with enough power or remit for good progress to be made.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

I'm not using it as justification, I've outlined why connections are important in their own right.

On the other hand, call me lacking credibility, old fashioned or whatever, but I still think ministers should be held to account. And I don't think it's grandiose statement to be talking about the benefits of a connected rail / light rail network, it's something I want to see our TDs and ministers understand and talk about more, not less.

The business case for Luas originally massively underestimated the demand and we also have branch lines with poor performance, so I'm not really sure that official Luas documentation is the best thing to always go on. Promoting transfers is also something which is more NTA scope, the RPA had integrated ticketing in their hands for long enough with little progress. To be fair, they were never really set up with enough power or remit for good progress to be made.

Ministers will always talk up situations such as Broombridge as an interchange - it's called spin. The reality is often different from the spin that is given. I've lost count of the number of public transport investment projects (particularly involving buses) where the spin differed greatly from the reality on the ground.

The reality at Broombridge is that in the medium term for outbound trips at peak times connecting will be easier, but at off-peak it will not, with trains only every 60 minutes (maybe increasing to every 30 minutes). If someone misses a train due to the tram not arriving in time then that will mitigate against them using that facility again. That's a distinct possibility as there are no public timetables easily available for LUAS, only the base frequency, which, as I understand it, will be every 6 minutes to/from Broombridge.

The fact that fares will not be "integrated" per se, except for the LUAS90 Discount will also mitigate against transfers. Nothing I have seen anywhere suggests that there are any plans to further integrate ticketing between modes.

Your last paragraph seriously worries me. You're effectively saying that the base document for the investment in the project is not a document worth relying on. Given that is the main document underlying the capital investment in the project, are you now saying that we should rely on ministerial spin rather than the base document under which the project was assessed? It sort of questions the whole basis for the project.

monument

I'll reply to those issues later, but weak you say what part of a revamp are you against if not the lifts?

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

I'll reply to those issues later, but weak you say what part of a revamp are you against if not the lifts?

There's not much point monument - I'd rather we left at that. I'm getting rather tired of this point by point analysis of each other's posts.


You're looking at it from the perspective of perhaps what should happen ideally, while I'm probably taking a view based on what is currently and likely to happen.


I don't disagree with your view that ultimately it should be a proper interchange with zonal ticketing, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon.

Schadenfreudia

The best Luas video on YouTube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS8TRMujarE

monument

Video: Liam Whelan / Fassaugh Road Bridge – Deck Replacement

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/liam-whelan-bridge-deck-replacement/

lxflyer wrote: »

You're looking at it from the perspective of perhaps what should happen ideally, while I'm probably taking a view based on what is currently and likely to happen.

If you want to leave it at that, please don't feel the need to reply, but I don't want my view seen as "what should happen ideally" -- a station revamp including lifts, platform resurfacing and cleanup should be viewed as the absolute basic of what should happen.

When putting a Luas stop right next to a rundown train station it's an absolute basic to revamp that train station and put in lifts so passengers with wheelchairs, other mobility issues and prams don't have a long detour out onto a narrow footpath on a public road. It's also an absolute basic to clean up that station to make it look respectable and attractive for use.

There's often on-going funding for this sort of station upgrade works, it's not unrealistic for it to be finished by the time Luas is running from that location.

To be clear: That's not to say you're for or against any of the above -- I don't know what your position is.

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

Video: Liam Whelan / Fassaugh Road Bridge – Deck Replacement

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/liam-whelan-bridge-deck-replacement/

Wow! Amazing video....

1huge1

The pace at the moment is really impressive I have to admit, especially the off road part between broadstone and broombridge (obviously easier from an engineering POV).

Muahahaha

monument wrote: »

Video: Liam Whelan / Fassaugh Road Bridge – Deck Replacement

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/liam-whelan-bridge-deck-replacement/

cool vid, never knew replacing a bridge would be done that way. I noticed in the video how some kids managed to get down underneath the bridge overnight and graffitti the underpass when it was freshly done. It didn't take them long to leave their mark there

Schadenfreudia

Muahahaha wrote: »

cool vid, never knew replacing a bridge would be done that way. I noticed in the video how some kids managed to get down underneath the bridge overnight and graffitti the underpass when it was freshly done. It didn't take them long to leave their mark there

Hopefully the "mark" will be removed asap.

Here in DLRCC they remove graffiti very rapidly - the tactic works.

FreudianSlippers

Muahahaha wrote: »

It didn't take them long to leave their mark there

I wouldn't even care so much if it wasn't all such **** graffiti! Banksy these guys are definitely not.

LeinsterDub

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I wouldn't even care so much if it wasn't all such **** graffiti! Banksy these guys are definitely not.

Off topic but Banksy me arse. Why does he get to be a vandle just because he makes some social commentary in the process?

Schadenfreudia

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Off topic but Banksy me arse. Why does he get to be a vandle just because he makes some social commentary in the process?

He's a genius. Free pass.....but as you say, off topic.

CatInABox

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Off topic but Banksy me arse. Why does he get to be a vandle just because he makes some social commentary in the process?

If someone wanted to come along and add a £500,000 work of art to the side of my house, I'd make them a cup of tea to be honest.

Reuben1210

Anyone know when they will actually get moving on pouring foundations for the rail, and installing the tracks in the areas that are being dug-up at the moment?

MJohnston

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Anyone know when they will actually get moving on pouring foundations for the rail, and installing the tracks in the areas that are being dug-up at the moment?

They're in that phase at the minute but it's probably the final part of the Main Infrastructure works:
https://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/timeline/

Muahahaha

Probably a dumb question but how do tram tracks intersect each other. Is there some sort of a points system on the track itself or do the trams just rumble over a tiny missing section where the tracks intersect each other?

FreudianSlippers

Muahahaha wrote: »

Probably a dumb question but how do tram tracks intersect each other. Is there some sort of a points system on the track itself or do the trams just rumble over a tiny missing section where the tracks intersect each other?

Like on OCS where the Green/Red will intersect? I presume they'll be grand union junctions with "frog" junctions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbSmoUH1Cqk

theskeptic

AFAIK the Luas Red and Green lines will cross each other at right angles - i.e. Luas passenger services will not cross over from one line to the other.

There are engineering links at Abbey St / O'Connell St and Abbey St / Marlborough St junctions - but presumably these will just be for transferring tram units across the lines (withOUT passengers).

Hint: add "/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/LCC-Route-Pack-Dawson-Northbound-Update.pdf" to end of luas cross city web site for details...

MJohnston

theskeptic wrote: »

AFAIK the Luas Red and Green lines will cross each other at right angles - i.e. Luas passenger services will not cross over from one line to the other.

There are engineering links at Abbey St / O'Connell St and Abbey St / Marlborough St junctions - but presumably these will just be for transferring tram units across the lines (withOUT passengers).

Hint: add "/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/LCC-Route-Pack-Dawson-Northbound-Update.pdf" to end of luas cross city web site for details...

Interesting that they have those links though, that's the first I've seen them mentioned (I originally thought there would be zero connection at all between the lines other than a crossover) - I wonder how much turnaround flexibility that could provide in the result of road closures, security alerts etc.

cgcsb

There are turn around facilities at Smithfield, Connolly, Stephen's Green and there'll be a new one on the top of Parnell Street.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

There are turn around facilities at Smithfield, Connolly, Stephen's Green and there'll be a new one on the top of Parnell Street.

I'm sure it'll be vital given the amount of closures in that area due to protest marches.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Interesting that they have those links though, that's the first I've seen them mentioned (I originally thought there would be zero connection at all between the lines other than a crossover) - I wonder how much turnaround flexibility that could provide in the result of road closures, security alerts etc.

They'll only be used for swapping trams between lines to get to/from depots.

The detailed plans for the line have been in the public domain since before the public enquiry.

There will be a turnback siding on St Stephen's Green North, northbound trams will be able to turn around at Parnell Street, and there will be a crossover on Dominic Street allowing southbound trams turn back there.

Dardania

MJohnston wrote: »

Interesting that they have those links though, that's the first I've seen them mentioned (I originally thought there would be zero connection at all between the lines other than a crossover) - I wonder how much turnaround flexibility that could provide in the result of road closures, security alerts etc.

I was curious about this myself lately - if you look at the alignment drawings:

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/LCC-Route-Pack-Dawson-Northbound-Update.pdf page 4, as theskeptic says

you can see heading northbound on o'connell street; there's a left turn for the greenline to go west bound on the red line (and conversely, if one is going westbound on the redline, it allows you to go North on the greenline)

and similarly, on marlborough street, if a luas heads southbound, it goes onto the red line eastbound (and conversely if one is heading westbound on the red line, it allows you to go southbound on the green line with a turnback)

Conceivably, this would allow the greenline from stephens green to serve hueston, tallaght etc. directly, and busaras if they use the oconnell street loop

and would allow the redline from busaras serve broombridge, and sandyford etc via the O'connell street loop

a PITA, but possible

FreudianSlippers

theskeptic wrote: »

AFAIK the Luas Red and Green lines will cross each other at right angles - i.e. Luas passenger services will not cross over from one line to the other.

There are engineering links at Abbey St / O'Connell St and Abbey St / Marlborough St junctions - but presumably these will just be for transferring tram units across the lines (withOUT passengers).

Hint: add "/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/LCC-Route-Pack-Dawson-Northbound-Update.pdf" to end of luas cross city web site for details...

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/LCC-Route-Pack-Dawson-Northbound-Update.pdf

Having looked there, they don't look like right angles to me?

loyatemu

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/LCC-Route-Pack-Dawson-Northbound-Update.pdf

Having looked there, they don't look like right angles to me?

It is on O'Connell Street:

markpb

Dardania wrote: »

Conceivably, this would allow the greenline from stephens green to serve hueston, tallaght etc. directly, and busaras if they use the oconnell street loop

and would allow the redline from busaras serve broombridge, and sandyford etc via the O'connell street loop

a PITA, but possible

The RPA have publicly said that those links will only be used for stock movement, not for passenger services.

Dardania

markpb wrote: »

The RPA have publicly said that those links will only be used for stock movement, not for passenger services.

curious why this is the case - is it for simplicity of their network? Seems an opportunity is present to take advantage here