Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

namloc1980

FrStone wrote: »

I some times think the reason it will never happen is because of the protectionist policies of the GAA and not because it couldn't happen.

Cutting all funding to sports in one city to force them to build a stadium that wouldn't suit any of them is something that couldn't and shouldn't happen.

SpaceTime

Why wouldn't it suit all of them?

You could have a state-of-the-art, large capacity stadium and possibly even a second smaller stadium for smaller games.

It could cope with GAA, rugby, soccer and also be open to smaller and emerging sports like hockey, American football etc.

You would also have scope for athletics and maybe even building a sports campus that could include an Olympic swimming pool etc etc

It would mean Cork could host major sports events. It would be an amazing concert venue etc etc etc

Ireland always uses public money to facilitate vested interests instead of the public good.

AugustusMinimus

The state of stadiums in Italy is the clear example why soccer / rugby stadiums should never be built with an athletics track around it.

Not even 25 years after Italy 90 and most of those stadiums will be torn down as they had athletics tracks in them.


Also, the last thing Cork City needs is additional funding for city hall. All that will result is triple the traffic lights that are already in the city.

FrStone

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Also, the last thing Cork City needs is additional funding for city hall. All that will result is triple the traffic lights that are already in the city.

Different budgets. The money isn't coming from city hall it was apporved nationally. So no matter what it won't be going to City Hall. We will probably end up with traffic lights anyway though....

FrStone

namloc1980 wrote: »

Cutting all funding to sports in one city to force them to build a stadium that wouldn't suit any of them is something that couldn't and shouldn't happen.

They wouldn't have to build it.

If we built a public stadium it could be used by all. Pairc Ui Chaoimh will not be available to all. It will generate a profit for the GAA and exclude many other sporting organistaions from using it. The GAA will have first call on times etc.

namloc1980

SpaceTime wrote: »

Why wouldn't it suit all of them?

You could have a state-of-the-art, large capacity stadium and possibly even a second smaller stadium for smaller games.

It could cope with GAA, rugby, soccer and also be open to smaller and emerging sports like hockey, American football etc.

You would also have scope for athletics and maybe even building a sports campus that could include an Olympic swimming pool etc etc

It would mean Cork could host major sports events. It would be an amazing concert venue etc etc etc

Ireland always uses public money to facilitate vested interests instead of the public good.

And who would fund these 2 stadiums and swimming pool etc you speak of and where would they be built? Cork is not a suitable location for major events. A short distance away in London you have a state of the art Olympic Park with all these facilities and more. What could Cork possibly offer that London or a myriad of other cities across Europe can't to international sports organisers? What you propose is fantasy.

namloc1980

FrStone wrote: »

They wouldn't have to build it.

If we built a public stadium it could be used by all. Pairc Ui Chaoimh will not be available to all. It will generate a profit for the GAA and exclude many other sporting organistaions from using it. The GAA will have first call on times etc.

Whose we? How big would the stadium be and who would use it? Where would it be built? The GAA would need 45k all seater, but that would be ridiculously over capacity for soccer and rugby and any other sport you care to mention in Cork.

Rhys Essien

FrStone wrote: »

They wouldn't have to build it.

If we built a public stadium it could be used by all. Pairc Ui Chaoimh will not be available to all. It will generate a profit for the GAA and exclude many other sporting organistaions from using it. The GAA will have first call on times etc.

Well there's a good chance it will be open for rugby in 9 years time.It would be good if the GAA and Munster Rugby could agree to stage the occasional big Munster game there for maximum capacity,nearly 20k more than Thomand.Afterall the taboo of foreign sports in GAA grounds is gone now.

Likewise,if Cork City get any big European games or big friendlies,they should also be played at PUC.

AugustusMinimus

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Well there's a good chance it will be open for rugby in 9 years time.It would be good if the GAA and Munster Rugby could agree to stage the occasional big Munster game there for maximum capacity,nearly 20k more than Thomand.Afterall the taboo of foreign sports in GAA grounds is gone now.

Likewise,if Cork City get any big European games or big friendlies,they should also be played at PUC.

Frank Murphy isn't an idiot and I think his objection to foreign games in GAA stadiums has now passed.

The Pairc will form part of the 2023 Rugby World Cup bid and I have no doubt the new Pairc will host Cork City friendlies with big English teams if there's money to be made.

namloc1980

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Frank Murphy isn't an idiot and I think his objection to foreign games in GAA stadiums has now passed.

The Pairc will form part of the 2023 Rugby World Cup bid and I have no doubt the new Pairc will host Cork City friendlies with big English teams if there's money to be made.

I doubt it. The pitch dimensions alone make soccer on a GAA pitch an unattractive prospect from a supporters point of view. I say that as someone who went to Croker for an Ireland game: the soccer pitch was lost in the huge expanse of the GAA pitch. In addition I could never see PuC being filled or close to it for a Cork City friendly. Better to have Turners X packed to the rafters with a buzzing atmosphere than a half empty PuC.

AugustusMinimus

namloc1980 wrote: »

I doubt it. The pitch dimensions alone make soccer on a GAA pitch an unattractive prospect from a supporters point of view. I say that as someone who went to Croker for an Ireland game: the soccer pitch was lost in the huge expanse of the GAA pitch. In addition I could never see PuC being filled or close to it for a Cork City friendly. Better to have Turners X packed to the rafters with a buzzing atmosphere than a half empty PuC.

Get Man United or Liverpool over for a friendly and you'd fill the Pairc twice over.

Rhys Essien

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Get Man United or Liverpool over for a friendly and you'd fill the Pairc twice over.

The Liverpool reserves got ~43K at the Aviva during the week against Shamrock Rovers.:D

namloc1980

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Get Man United or Liverpool over for a friendly and you'd fill the Pairc twice over.

Really? How come Rovers' friendly with Liverpool drew 40k to the Aviva during the week... that's 10k under capacity??? If the best known team in Ireland playing Liverpool after their best season in years couldn't attract a full house in the country's biggest city by far, to say a game in cork would attract 90k is just pure fantasy.

Rhys Essien

Another thing,I still want to know why there was no concerts held at PUC between 1996 and 2013?

Anyone know??

An awful lot of lost revenue.Although in saying that,the Springsteen concert should never have went ahead there last year,for health and safety reasons alone.

AugustusMinimus

namloc1980 wrote: »

Really? How come Rovers' friendly with Liverpool drew 40k to the Aviva during the week... that's 10k under capacity??? If the best known team in Ireland playing Liverpool after their best season in years couldn't attract a full house in the country's biggest city by far, to say a game in cork would attract 90k is just pure fantasy.

Note the word "reserves" bolded in Rhys' post.

namloc1980

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Note the word "reserves" bolded in Rhys' post.

And do you expect them to play their 1st team in these friendlies??????? Maybe they will just for us in Cork like!!!

Rhys Essien

namloc1980 wrote: »

And do you expect them to play their 1st team in these friendlies??????? Maybe they will just for us in Cork like!!!

Well at the Cross last summer,West Brom and West Ham played their first teams.Id say teams are more likely to do this for pre season rather than end of season games.

AugustusMinimus

namloc1980 wrote: »

And do you expect them to play their 1st team in these friendlies??????? Maybe they will just for us in Cork like!!!

Real Madrid played their 1st team in a friendly against Shamrock Rovers back in 2009. Ronaldo and all.

namloc1980

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Real Madrid played their 1st team in a friendly against Shamrock Rovers back in 2009. Ronaldo and all.

Was there 90k at it? Building a stadium on the basis of a friendly game is just ludicrous. Suggesting 90k would go to such games in cork is beyond ludicrous.

AugustusMinimus

namloc1980 wrote: »

Was there 90k at it? Building a stadium on the basis of a friendly game is just ludicrous. Suggesting 90k would go to such games in cork is beyond ludicrous.

Of course not.

Tallaght Stadium only holds 6,000.

Do you really believe you wouldn't get 90,000 for a game anywhere in Ireland if Man United or Liverpool played their first team ? Honestly ?

namloc1980

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Of course not.

Tallaght Stadium only holds 6,000.

Do you really believe you wouldn't get 90,000 for a game anywhere in Ireland if Man United or Liverpool played their first team ? Honestly ?

Yes I do believe that. Honestly. You might get that crowd if it was a competitive game...maybe, but a friendly no way. If it was the case why aren't teams doing it. Why aren't man u or Liverpool coming over to play in croke park every year?

two wheels good

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

80% of the show grounds land is still being used for the public park.

How many public parks does Cork need. Its getting an enormous one on the site of the Kinsale Road dump too. Is a rectangle of land the size of a GAA pitch really going to detract from Marina Park that badly ?

It certainly isn't "just a rectangle of land the size of a GAA pitch" The GAA want 2.8 acres (stadium related) and 6.08 acres (training pitch related).
If I could find a link to the total land we could check your 80% assertion but it's not just the area is the issue. It's the integrity of the park as a unit and the rights of the majority public, daily users of the park versus the minority GAA users.

For example see here for elaboration;
"In the design of the park a natural hierarchy of use and interest should be apparent. The daily users and their needs should be addressed first and foremost with the less frequent and incidental users then being accommodated. This masterplan has turned the whole thing upside-down with the least frequent user (the GAA) being put centre stage and all other users being forced out and their needs addressed in an incidental way. This is bad planning and will not work.
Activities enjoyed by the majority of regular park users have been shoehorned in around the needs of the GAA. "

As for the number of parks Cork needs:
- Cork's provision of parks is poor compared to comparable cities
- take a look at how over-used Fitz's Park and Lucy park are usually.
- View that notorious drone flight over Cork video. It certainly struck me how few sizable green areas existed
- The docklands area will eventually be redeveloped. The park will be needed for a growing local population.
- It's proximity to the Marina and the Rochestown railway line walk means its a natural extension to an excellent and hugely popular local amenity that could also be a practical green route. These points should take priority.

AugustusMinimus

two wheels good wrote: »

It certainly isn't "just a rectangle of land the size of a GAA pitch" The GAA want 2.8 acres (stadium related) and 6.08 acres (training pitch related).
If I could find a link to the total land we could check your 80% assertion but it's not just the area is the issue. It's the integrity of the park as a unit and the rights of the majority public, daily users of the park versus the minority GAA users.

For example see here for elaboration;
"In the design of the park a natural hierarchy of use and interest should be apparent. The daily users and their needs should be addressed first and foremost with the less frequent and incidental users then being accommodated. This masterplan has turned the whole thing upside-down with the least frequent user (the GAA) being put centre stage and all other users being forced out and their needs addressed in an incidental way. This is bad planning and will not work.
Activities enjoyed by the majority of regular park users have been shoehorned in around the needs of the GAA. "

As for the number of parks Cork needs:
- Cork's provision of parks is poor compared to comparable cities
- take a look at how over-used Fitz's Park and Lucy park are usually.
- View that notorious drone flight over Cork video. It certainly struck me how few sizable green areas existed
- The docklands area will eventually be redeveloped. The park will be needed for a growing local population.
- It's proximity to the Marina and the Rochestown railway line walk means its a natural extension to an excellent and hugely popular local amenity that could also be a practical green route. These points should take priority.

Just to put it in context, Tramore Valley Park is currently being landscaped and built for a 2015 opening. In terms of size, it will dwarf Marina Park.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/environmentrecreation/tramorevalleyparkmasterplan/5890_Tramore_Valley_Park_Masterplan%20final_opt1.pdf

evilivor

Munster Rugby are reportedly putting together an extensive ground redevelopment plan for Irish Independent Park to allow it to compete with Thomond Park in Limerick to host games in both the RaboDirect PRO12 and the Heineken Cup.

I wonder will they be getting public funding for it?

two wheels good

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Just to put it in context, Tramore Valley Park is currently being landscaped and built for a 2015 opening. In terms of size, it will dwarf Marina Park.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/environmentrecreation/tramorevalleyparkmasterplan/5890_Tramore_Valley_Park_Masterplan%20final_opt1.pdf

Pity PUC couldn't be relocated there near the better transport facilities.

And as I already mentioned, which you may not have taken the haven't take the time to read or consider:
It's not just about size.
I refer you to my previous post

MANUTD99

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Close up render of the redevelopment.

That is fecking awful looking. The amount of money being thrown at this thing you would hope people behind the goals would have a roof over their heads.

Brutal looking re developmet. Do it right or dont do it at all. All seater 35K stadium would be great and could open the door to other sports. Second biggest city in Ireland should have a 4/5 star stadium. That plan above looks ****e

Waste of money if thats what they are going with

rebs23

namloc1980 wrote: »

It won't attract a lot more big games. Cork, Tipp, Limerick and Kerry all have home and away agreements which won't have any impact. Thurles will continue to get it's fair share of other games. AI series qualifiers are in a home and away arrangement. QFs and beyond in football are locked into Croker for commercial reasons. An upgraded PuC might get an extra game every year or two but that'll be about it. For most counties beyond Munster it's not convenient to get to. The GAA won't play many games in Cork if they feel fans won't travel.

PuC is also very poorly served by local transport options. It's a nightmare to get to and out of on a big match day. None of that has been addressed in the redevelopment.

Rugby World Cup? All Ireland Qualifiers? Extra Munster Championship matches that are currently played elsewhere because of the state of PUC? Stadium type concerts that cannot or have not been held there recently because of the poor state of the stadium? People like myself that currently won't bring my kids to big games in PUC due to the condition of the stadium. Some of the attendance figures being quoted are way off the mark. PUC used to have a capacity of 65,000. The stadium will pay for itself over its lifetime.

PUC is in the city centre within walking distance of the train and bus station.
All sustainable development policies call for such stadiums to be in city centre locations. Where else would you have it that is closer to the bus or train station? There is nowhere closer possible for stadium development.

Traffic management plans and public transport plans for events at the stadium have all been addressed in the conditions granted in the permission.

You could go around in circles all day on these types of arguments but even some of the local politicians that were against the redevelopment are now in favour of it, which would indicate a certain change of opinion on the matter locally.
For me its simple, the stadium is being redeveloped in the location that it was always located in and the grounds around it were always used for sporting events including the land that was part of the Munster agricultural society grounds. Its derelict and an eyesore attracting anti social type behaviour. It will bring a lot more events to Cork and contribute enormously to Corks economy and attraction for all types of events.

As for public money being spent on the redevelopment, other cities in Ireland have had substantial public money spent on stadiums for sporting organisations so why not PUC in Cork? An estimated €500 Million on stadiums in Dublin alone and we get €30 Million? All over the world public money is spent on building stadiums so that cities can attract events. Why not Cork?

Are we to be the only city in Ireland not to have a modern stadium capable of attracting significant sporting and cultural events?

I just can't understand the objectors but that probably works both ways.:)

rebs23

evilivor wrote: »

Munster Rugby are reportedly putting together an extensive ground redevelopment plan for Irish Independent Park to allow it to compete with Thomond Park in Limerick to host games in both the RaboDirect PRO12 and the Heineken Cup.

I wonder will they be getting public funding for it?

Munster Rugby have all but abandoned Cork. Training centre in Limerick and Thomond Park as the premier stadium. Munster rugby will not be putting anything in place to compete with Thomond Park. Link to the plans? Pure dreamland speculation. The only plans for a modern stadium in Cork are the GAA ones.
As for public money, how much did Thomond get?

AugustusMinimus

two wheels good wrote: »

Pity PUC couldn't be relocated there near the better transport facilities.

The South Ring Road is bad enough without putting a 45,000 stadium right beside the Kinsale Road Roundabout. Simply wouldn't be allowed.

namloc1980

rebs23 wrote: »

All Ireland Qualifiers? Extra Munster Championship matches that are currently played elsewhere because of the state of PUC?

Which qualifiers? As stated Cork as a neutral venue only suits a small number of counties. And which extra Munster games. Most teams have a home and away arrangement where they alternate home venues year after year. The likes of Tipp or Limerick aren't going to give up a home game to suit PuC.