Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

tolosenc

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'm not going to trawl through the threads to see who used Murray's/Jones' inexperience as a stick to beat them but, I'm just ignorantly assuming that there is some overlap between the posters who supported this and those who choose to ignore EOM's lack of experience.

You're ignoring that Murray's selection was for the World Cup, and that EOM is looking for a 6N spot. Different animals.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I wanted Murray and Jones in the world cup squad, I'd have O'Malley or Cave for Ireland in February (not sure which yet, probably Cave tbh).

Didn't see any of the Ulster game, how did he do? I've always been a fan of his, just not sure if he can make the step up to international level. I think it's worth a look though, he's more of a natural centre than Earls, has more experience than EOM and is bigger than both of them.

I thought McFadden was excellent at 12 on Saturday, btw.

Cpt_Blackbeard

tolosenc wrote: »

You're ignoring that Murray's selection was for the World Cup, and that EOM is looking for a 6N spot. Different animals.

They're really not. The WC is a much lower standard than the average 6N and is fixed to ensure that the 2nd tier nations have no chance of success. Every year the 6N comes around, at least 50% of the teams have realistic aspirations of winning the title, which is something the WC will never have. Continued success in the 6N will also ensure a good showing when the WC comes around.

I'd much rather we do well in the 6N every year and have the knock-on success of doing well in the WC, than building towards a competition that we won't have realistic ambitions of winning.

molloyjh

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Didn't really mean to call you a hypocrite but, rather say that your point displayed to me the hypocritical behaviour that's on all message boards. Proved was probably the wrong word in retrospect.

I'm not going to trawl through the threads to see who used Murray's/Jones' inexperience as a stick to beat them but, I'm just ignorantly assuming that there is some overlap between the posters who supported this and those who choose to ignore EOM's lack of experience.

Provincialism causing you to over-rate/ your own players is one thing and understandable but, using a completely different barometer to judge players from different provinces differently is just hypocrisy in my books.

Oh get down off your high horse CB, you're the one who continually applies different standards depending on province. Look at the OC debate for example.

At the end of the day a lot of people were concerned about Jones and Murrays experience (particularly Murrays) going into the RWC. It's the highest level anyone can play at against better opposition than in the 6 Ns at times. Most of us were happy enough with Jones given the lack of other options (Kearneys form was an unknown given he was just coming back from injury) but with Murray there were 2 experienced alternatives.

With EOM we are saying he should be in the running given the serious lack of options at the moment. Bowe and Earls are both wingers, McFadden is more like a 12. So we're left with youngsters like EOM, Cave etc. And we're all saying they should all be in the running. That doesn't mean we wouldn't be concerned about their lack of experience as well. But what other choices have we? Few, if any, are saying EOM should be the only one considered. You're the only one making anything provincial here. Again.

Podge_irl

There is also the fact that the incumbent 13 is missing and there is no experienced option available. There were 2 very solid experienced options available at 9 during the world cup.

That said, I was exceedingly critical of the decision to start Murray at the RWC - I still think it's one of the daftest things Kidney has ever done. I'd have concerns over EOM as well. He already has more high level game experience then Murray did though. I'd probably start Cave (which won't happen) or Bowe (which probably won't either) ahead of him for this 6N. But it's a completely difference situation.

porterbelly

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS7KBVoDBd4

This man is the future

Fireball07

Out of interest, do people want to see one 13 for the whole 6N or would they prefer to see maybe 2 of them get a shot?

For me...I think we should be open to making a switch. I know it's an important position and continuity is good for the whole team, and particularly for the confidence of a particular player but I think that unless one player really plays brilliantly and lays claim to the jersey, that we could try more than one.

molloyjh

Fireball07 wrote: »

Out of interest, do people want to see one 13 for the whole 6N or would they prefer to see maybe 2 of them get a shot?

For me...I think we should be open to making a switch. I know it's an important position and continuity is good for the whole team, and particularly for the confidence of a particular player but I think that unless one player really plays brilliantly and lays claim to the jersey, that we could try more than one.

It's a tough call really. With so few games I suppose you could argue it either way. If we were to bring in a young lad he'd need time to settle in. But at the same time there isn't a front runner as such at this stage either. That said I fully expect Earls at 13, especially with Fitzys form at the moment where I think we'll see him at 11. So this is all academic really....

Fireball07

molloyjh wrote: »

It's a tough call really. With so few games I suppose you could argue it either way. If we were to bring in a young lad he'd need time to settle in. But at the same time there isn't a front runner as such at this stage either. That said I fully expect Earls at 13, especially with Fitzys form at the moment where I think we'll see him at 11. So this is all academic really....

Ah but sure you could say that about anything. Discussion boards would be boring if you couldn't take on hypothetical situations.

So I'm asking people if they were in charge, and Earls wasn't a certainty (which I'm not sure he will be) who would they pick?


I actually think Earls could do an okay job in the centre for the 6N...but obviously I'd much prefer to see him on the wing, with some other players blooded. And of course I want to see Fitz start at 12 but that's unlikely too.

molloyjh

Fireball07 wrote: »

Ah but sure you could say that about anything. Discussion boards would be boring if you couldn't take on hypothetical situations.

So I'm asking people if they were in charge, and Earls wasn't a certainty (which I'm not sure he will be) who would they pick?


I actually think Earls could do an okay job in the centre for the 6N...but obviously I'd much prefer to see him on the wing, with some other players blooded. And of course I want to see Fitz start at 12 but that's unlikely too.

A lot hangs on Earls form over the next few weeks obviously but for now I'd have a back line of Fitz, D'Arcy (we're already going to have a young gun at OC so we need the experience here), EOM/Cave (I haven't seen enough of Ulster these last couple of weeks to make this call), Bowe and Kearney. Trimble is unlucky to miss out again but I just think Fitzys form at the moment can't be overlooked.

JustinDee

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

They're really not. The WC is a much lower standard than the average 6N and is fixed to ensure that the 2nd tier nations have no chance of success. Every year the 6N comes around, at least 50% of the teams have realistic aspirations of winning the title, which is something the WC will never have. Continued success in the 6N will also ensure a good showing when the WC comes around.

I'd much rather we do well in the 6N every year and have the knock-on success of doing well in the WC, than building towards a competition that we won't have realistic ambitions of winning.

Don't give up the day job then.

profitius

Griffin and Cave for me look the front runners for the 13 jersey. EOMs defense is an issue still. Hes a class player who needs some experience playing at a higher level. Ireland can't afford to have too many weaknesses especially in defense. Maybe an option would be to put him on the wing in defensive situations? He'd certainly offer a quality attacking threat in BODs absense.

You'd have to say that there are some genuine options in the center these days which is great. Its one of the most difficult positions to play since players need to be good all rounders to play there and then have something else. Skills are vital to play there. Mafi butchering a try for Munster at the weekend is a good example of lack of skills. I was watching an Aviva premiership match a few weeks back and a counter attack was on for a team who turned over ball in their own 22. They had numbers out wide against no defense but the center didn't trust himself to make the pass so just cut back inside. It sums up the importance of having good skills.

Bowe could also be a real option at 13 in the coming years. If he loses a bit of pace he'd still have the class to play there. Spense and Barnes look short of international class for center at least. Ulster have a few centers coming through who look very promising.

onlyrocknroll

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

Sorry, I do agree with the point you were making here, (EOM is not too small for an international centre, I think he's a wonderful player) but I would like to point out that a peanut is actually not a nut but a legume. That's all.

that was the point....

irishbucsfan

Omalley has historically been a better defender than McFadden, who has played 13 for Ireland. He also has more experience at a high level as a 13 than McFadden. Don't think experience or defense is a problem.

He misses one tackle against a world cup winner in the closing minutes of a game whilst leading by 30 points and suddenly his defense is an issue? If he can defend in the SMM against Rougerie, he can certainly play 6 Nations rugby.

Think id have Cave ahead of him though right now, just about.

Fishooks12

I think people are being slightly pessimistic about Earls being more or less a definite starter at ten.

I for one have some bit of hope that Kidney will give a shot to the form player in the shirt, which at the moment is not including Earls.

If this does happen it will pose an interesting selection dilemma at 11.

Podge_irl

Fishooks12 wrote: »

If this does happen it will pose an interesting selection dilemma at 11.

Indeed. Fitz and Trimble are both pressing their case for selection there and obviously Earls is the incumbent. Nice position to be in really.

yimrsg

Jauzion was put on his backside by Ugo Monye whilst attempting to tackle him on Sunday.
D'arcy missed a tackle against Rougerie which lead to a try in last years 6 nations (I think).
Earls didn't stop Manu.
EOM didn't stop Donald.
SOB was run over by Gorgodze.

Just because the incidents are memorable doesn't mean that all of a sudden player X is a poor defender. It's far better to make that assumption over a longer timeline than focus on one incident. EOM is a natural 13 and should be in contention for selection in the 6 nations.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Omalley has historically been a better defender than McFadden, who has played 13 for Ireland. He also has more experience at a high level as a 13 than McFadden. Don't think experience or defense is a problem.

He misses one tackle against a world cup winner in the closing minutes of a game whilst leading by 30 points and suddenly his defense is an issue? If he can defend in the SMM against Rougerie, he can certainly play 6 Nations rugby.

Think id have Cave ahead of him though right now, just about.

Tbh I think EOM fell off about 2 or 3 tackles in the game. But having watched it back last night I think people are making too much of the Donald incident. Jenno looked to be going low on Donald but at the last second didn't commit (he obviously thought he was too far away to make it effectively). It actually looks like EOM thought Jenno was going low and so went high to prevent the offload. When Jenno pulled out of the tackle EOM didn't have the time or the space to re-adjust.

Either way other than that 1 incident there hasn't been any stand-out issue defensively from him and he's faced some serious opposition.

Fireball07

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I think people are being slightly pessimistic about Earls being more or less a definite starter at ten.

I for one have some bit of hope that Kidney will give a shot to the form player in the shirt, which at the moment is not including Earls.

If this does happen it will pose an interesting selection dilemma at 11.

So is it an Earls/Sexton debate now??

Fishooks12

Fireball07 wrote: »

So is it an Earls/Sexton debate now??

woops!

I meant 13 obviously!

Fireball07

Fishooks12 wrote: »

woops!

I meant 13 obviously!

I think Earls has everything you could possibly need to be a great 10. Tbh, it's a disgrace he's never got a chance there.


But I suppose there's still time for players to stake a claim, get a bit of form coming up to the 6N. Hopefully all 3 candidates will be chosen in the squad though...and it could come down to who performs best in training.

durkadurka

Fireball07 wrote: »

I think Earls has everything you could possibly need to be a great 10. Tbh, it's a disgrace he's never got a chance there.

Tighthead surely?

onlyrocknroll

durkadurka wrote: »

Fireball07 wrote: »

I think Earls has everything you could possibly need to be a great 10. Tbh, it's a disgrace he's never got a chance there.

Tighthead surely?

Obviously he should be Irelands first choice tighthead and it's only blatant pro-Leinster bias that's keeping him out.

Fireball07

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

Obviously he should be Irelands first choice tighthead and it's only blatant pro-Leinster bias that's keeping him out.

Got it in one. I think Earls should play tighthead, no. 8 and out-half all at once tbh.

jasper11

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

They're really not. The WC is a much lower standard than the average 6N and is fixed to ensure that the 2nd tier nations have no chance of success. Every year the 6N comes around, at least 50% of the teams have realistic aspirations of winning the title, which is something the WC will never have. Continued success in the 6N will also ensure a good showing when the WC comes around.

I'd much rather we do well in the 6N every year and have the knock-on success of doing well in the WC, than building towards a competition that we won't have realistic ambitions of winning.

no realistic ambitions of winning last world cup???

WeeBushy

Fireball07 wrote: »

Got it in one. I think Earls should play tighthead, no. 8 and out-half all at once tbh.

We all dream of a team of Keith Earls...

danthefan

At this stage after 4 rounds of the HEC, and only about 5 weeks away from the 6N, how is the Ireland team shaping up? I'm going to look at it from a realistic point of view. I.e. EOM or Griffin simply have no realistic chance of playing in the 6N bar a spate of injuries, so I'm going to leave them out. And yes, I am bored.

I would say the following players are definitely nailed on:

Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Kearney

I can't see anything contentious there at all, I expect all those 8 players to start every game if fit.

I would say the following players are sort of 90%+ nailed on:

Bowe, Earls, D'Arcy, Murray

Bowe is in here and not the above category because he's not playing very well at the moment. He's easily been outshone by Fitz recently for example. But I think due to his quality as a player he'll more than likely be starting.
Earls I can see in the centre, for better or worse.
There is nothing Reddan can do imo, he could become a composite of Fourie du Preez and Will Genia and he still wouldn't get a start, Murray imo will start all the games in the 6N. I just hope Kidney sees how effective Reddan and Sexton are together.
D'Arcy isn't playing especially well but P. Wallace is injured. McFadden did well enough for Leinster at 12 but I don't think he's going to take the shirt of D'Arcy. The way I see it is if D'Arcy remains first choice for Leinster he'll be first choice for Ireland.

Rotation:

Sexton, ROG

Everyone could see after the Wales game how really awful ROG was, you'd hope that would lead to Sexton finally being backed but I'm not sure I see it happening.

So we're left with a second row, and I would imagine D. Ryan is in the driving seat as a partner to POC. Munster's pack is going fairly well it has to be said. Touhy is the other alternative and tbh I haven't seen enough of him this season to really comment.

Last spot is wing, which will be either Fitz or Trimble. I'm not sure you could possibly leave out Fitz in the form he's in.

So my predicted team:

Kearney
Bowe
Earls
D'Arcy
Fitz
ROG/Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
SOB
Ferris
POC
Ryan
Ross
Best
Healy

Tox56

danthefan wrote: »

At this stage after 4 rounds of the HEC, and only about 5 weeks away from the 6N, how is the Ireland team shaping up? I'm going to look at it from a realistic point of view. I.e. EOM or Griffin simply have no realistic chance of playing in the 6N bar a spate of injuries, so I'm going to leave them out. And yes, I am bored.

I would say the following players are definitely nailed on:

Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Kearney

I can't see anything contentious there at all, I expect all those 8 players to start every game if fit.

I would say the following players are sort of 90%+ nailed on:

Bowe, Earls, D'Arcy, Murray

Bowe is in here and not the above category because he's not playing very well at the moment. He's easily been outshone by Fitz recently for example. But I think due to his quality as a player he'll more than likely be starting.
Earls I can see in the centre, for better or worse.
There is nothing Reddan can do imo, he could become a composite of Fourie du Preez and Will Genia and he still wouldn't get a start, Murray imo will start all the games in the 6N. I just hope Kidney sees how effective Reddan and Sexton are together.
D'Arcy isn't playing especially well but P. Wallace is injured. McFadden did well enough for Leinster at 12 but I don't think he's going to take the shirt of D'Arcy. The way I see it is if D'Arcy remains first choice for Leinster he'll be first choice for Ireland.

Rotation:

Sexton, ROG

Everyone could see after the Wales game how really awful ROG was, you'd hope that would lead to Sexton finally being backed but I'm not sure I see it happening.

So we're left with a second row, and I would imagine D. Ryan is in the driving seat as a partner to POC. Munster's pack is going fairly well it has to be said. Touhy is the other alternative and tbh I haven't seen enough of him this season to really comment.

Last spot is wing, which will be either Fitz or Trimble. I'm not sure you could possibly leave out Fitz in the form he's in.

So my predicted team:

Kearney
Bowe
Earls
D'Arcy
Fitz
ROG/Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
SOB
Ferris
POC
Ryan
Ross
Best
Healy

You really think even Kidney will be still be even considering Earls at 13, much less starting him? He must know by now that it just isn't happening, especially with how well EOM (or even McFadden) has played at 13.

I don't see why EOM won't get to play at least some part. I personally would start him, although I admit that would be unlikely, I think it is far from impossible.

danthefan

Tox56 wrote: »

You really think even Kidney will be still be even considering Earls at 13, much less starting him? He must know by now that it just isn't happening, especially with how well EOM (or even McFadden) has played at 13.

I don't see why EOM won't get to play at least some part. I personally would start him, although I admit that would be unlikely, I think it is far from impossible.

Up to the RWC Earls was getting starts in the centre for Ireland with Kidney stating straight out he was next in line behind BOD. He's barely played since due to injury, so I don't see what's changed.

CatFromHue

O' Malley has played great at 13, just not so much this season.