Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

MungBean

Deleted User wrote: »

except Bowe has never been a good 13

Lies.

Hype710

Deleted User wrote: »

except Bowe has never been a good 13

Was pretty decent there for the Lions. The way i see it, none of O' Malley, Griffin et al are international standard yet and while Cave is good, I can't see Kidney picking him. We have 4 top quality wingers and Bowe is the only one I'd be confident in stepping into the 13 jersey.

MungBean

MungBean wrote: »

Lies.

Give me 3 examples of him being more than acceptable at 13.

I'll happily give you hundreds of examples of him being an exceptional 14 though.

Ferris played 12 for Ulster for a bit today, I reckon he'd probably be pretty decent there. But I sure as **** would select him at 6 and not 12 100 times out of 100 if D'Arcy or Wallace were completely out of action.

What's with people's addictions to moving our best players into positions that they "can" play, but have never excelled at?

durkadurka

Dont know why you're bothering lads. It's bloody earls . Despite the lack of evidence that he can play there.

Hype710

Deleted User wrote: »

Give me 3 examples of him being more than acceptable at 13.

I'll happily give you hundreds of examples of him being an exceptional 14 though.

Ferris played 12 for Ulster for a bit today, I reckon he'd probably be pretty decent there. But I sure as **** would select him at 6 and not 12 100 times out of 100 if D'Arcy or Wallace were completely out of action.

What's with people's addictions to moving our best players into positions that they "can" play, but have never excelled at?

Seán O' Brien's best position is 6, does he play there for Ireland? Who in your mind should play 13? It would be interesting to do a poll.

Hype710

Hype710 wrote: »

Seán O' Brien's best position is 6, does he play there for Ireland? Who in your mind should play 13? It would be interesting to do a poll.

Sean O'Brien plays 7 and not 6 for Ireland because we have another world class blindside flanker and we have to do our best to fit them both into the team. It's a case of having an embarrassment of riches, as opposed to having an issue of trying to "fill" a position.

I would hope that any player that has played regularly at 13 for their province in meaningful games, and has proven that they can do a job there might be considered.

Those I include in this list are
Darren Cave
Nevin Spence
Eoin O'Malley
Fergus McFadden
Danny Barnes
Eoin Griffin
and begrudgingly
Keith Earls.

I would say that Bowe at 13 is as tested and as effective as Gavin Duffy at 13. I'd genuinely prefer to play Duffy at 13 and retain Bowe's skills at 14 than move him.

MungBean

Deleted User wrote: »

Give me 3 examples of him being more than acceptable at 13.

I'll happily give you hundreds of examples of him being an exceptional 14 though.

Ferris played 12 for Ulster for a bit today, I reckon he'd probably be pretty decent there. But I sure as **** would select him at 6 and not 12 100 times out of 100 if D'Arcy or Wallace were completely out of action.

What's with people's addictions to moving our best players into positions that they "can" play, but have never excelled at?

Its not an addiction to move people anywhere I'm just assuming Kidney will pick an established international to fill the spot rather than solely rely on a newcomer. We all expect him to stick Earls there so its not ridiculous to mention the other wingers as possible alternatives given that Earls has played there and failed to impress.

Why not give me 3 examples of him being anything less than acceptable at 13 rather than him being more than acceptable on the wing. We are talking about him at 13 not questioning his ability on the wing.

What I seen of him at 13 and the ability he shows at 14 leads me to believe he'd be more capable than Earls at 13. Have you seen him play bad at 13 ? If he has shown in the past he is less than acceptable there then I'll take that into account.

CIARAN_BOYLE

MungBean wrote: »

Its not an addiction to move people anywhere I'm just assuming Kidney will pick an established international to fill the spot rather than solely rely on a newcomer. We all expect him to stick Earls there so its not ridiculous to mention the other wingers as possible alternatives given that Earls has played there and failed to impress.

Why not give me 3 examples of him being anything less than acceptable at 13 rather than him being more than acceptable on the wing. We are talking about him at 13 not questioning his ability on the wing.

What I seen of him at 13 and the ability he shows at 14 leads me to believe he'd be more capable than Earls at 13. Have you seen him play bad at 13 ? If he has shown in the past he is less than acceptable there then I'll take that into account.

He plays there a fair bit for the ospreys, I've never seen him do more than an average performance there in the pro 12. That said I dont watch a lot of Ospreys games only catching them when they play an Irish province so I've only seen him play at 13 a few times.

MungBean

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

He plays there a fair bit for the ospreys, I've never seen him do more than an average performance there in the pro 12. That said I dont watch a lot of Ospreys games only catching them when they play an Irish province so I've only seen him play at 13 a few times.

I've never seen him start there myself, just seen him moved in there late in the odd game so its hard to judge.

I have heard Conor O'Shea and Brent Pope mention moving Bowe into 13 before. I know that in no way makes it a valid move but Conor is no gom and he wouldnt have proposed it if Bowe hasnt shown some capability to match those needed for the role is my reasoning.

MungBean

MungBean wrote: »

Lies.

MungBean wrote: »

I've never seen him start there myself, just seen him moved in there late in the odd game so its hard to judge.

I have heard Conor O'Shea and Brent Pope mention moving Bowe into 13 before. I know that in no way makes it a valid move but Conor is no gom and he wouldnt have proposed it if Bowe hasnt shown some capability to match those needed for the role is my reasoning.

cool

MungBean

Deleted User wrote: »

cool

For the Ospreys obviously. :rolleyes:

MungBean

MungBean wrote: »

For the Ospreys obviously. :rolleyes:

so you're basing your beliefs on games from almost 4 years ago?

one word posts such as "lies" really irritate me. You're effectively calling me a liar, without backing anything up whatosever, then you admit not seeing him play any games there in almost 3 years.

It's not that this place demands any sort of etiquette or anything like that, I just take exception to being called a liar when you're using pundit's opinions and not your own.

George Hook was once respected as a pundit, and said that Tommy Bowe was not fast enough to be a winger.
Gert Smal is being rumoured to be the next SA coach, and said that Tony Buckley could be a World Class tighthead.

People get things wrong, even "infallibles".

If someone want's to discuss a point, I'm happy to do so, but a lovely one word post isn't really worth responding to tbh.

MungBean

Deleted User wrote: »

so you're basing your beliefs on games from almost 4 years ago?

one word posts such as "lies" really irritate me. You're effectively calling me a liar, without backing anything up whatosever, then you admit not seeing him play any games there in almost 3 years.

It's not that this place demands any sort of etiquette or anything like that, I just take exception to being called a liar when you're using pundit's opinions and not your own.

George Hook was once respected as a pundit, and said that Tommy Bowe was not fast enough to be a winger.
Gert Smal is being rumoured to be the next SA coach, and said that Tony Buckley could be a World Class tighthead.

People get things wrong, even "infallibles".

If someone want's to discuss a point, I'm happy to do so, but a lovely one word post isn't really worth responding to tbh.

Look it I wasnt actually calling you a liar, it was just in reference to the obvious fact that he has played ok there before.

I apologise for any offence caused and I'll admit a one word post is a bit shítty. But it really wasnt in any way an accusation or confrontational, just misjudged banter of a sort.

leakyboots

Some Leinster fans have serious gripes about Earls playing 13

leakyboots

leakyboots wrote: »

Some Ireland fans have serious gripes about Earls playing 13

because he's a winger, and a damn fine one.

Because, as discussed 7trillion times before, he's a winger, and has the winger's intuition and instinct to hold onto the ball. As such, when he plays 13, we line up with one less player in our backline because he doesn't get the ball outside him.

His defence is easily the weakest part of his game, and unfortunately, at 13 he'll be found wanting there an awful lot.

And, it's possibly because he's a winger, and not an outside centre. Just like Mike Ross is a tight head and not an outhalf.

lologram

leakyboots wrote: »

Some Leinster fans have serious gripes about Earls playing 13

No, it's more that people with eyes in their heads have problems with Earls playing 13. Leinster/not Leinster has nothing to do with it.

Anatidaephobia

leakyboots wrote: »

Some Leinster fans have serious gripes about Earls playing 13

Most rugby fans in general do too. :rolleyes:
He's a winger.

Fireball07

Deleted User wrote: »

Sean O'Brien plays 7 and not 6 for Ireland because we have another world class blindside flanker and we have to do our best to fit them both into the team. It's a case of having an embarrassment of riches, as opposed to having an issue of trying to "fill" a position.

I would hope that any player that has played regularly at 13 for their province in meaningful games, and has proven that they can do a job there might be considered.

Those I include in this list are
Darren Cave
Nevin Spence
Eoin O'Malley
Fergus McFadden
Danny Barnes
Eoin Griffin
and begrudgingly
Keith Earls.

I would say that Bowe at 13 is as tested and as effective as Gavin Duffy at 13. I'd genuinely prefer to play Duffy at 13 and retain Bowe's skills at 14 than move him.

I don't like Earls as a 13 but he does have a bit of experience there and I'd have him ahead of a few players on that list. And ahead of Bowe, because I like Bowe as a winger, and think he should stay there.

For me, I'd have:

1. Cave/Griffin/EOM
2. Earls
3. McFadden/Bowe/Spence
4. Barnes

Barnes hasn't looked anything close to international standard yet, give him more time. Spence would want to be playing 13 regularly for Ulster before I'd put him there. McFadden has never convinced me as a 13, I've seen Earls have more good games there than him. Bowe could probably do a job but he should really be on the wing.

But Cave, Griffin and EOM is 3 players...one of them can surely step up. We're not really stuck for choices. They're all young, promising players, they have to be blooded sometime.

Teferi

leakyboots wrote: »

Some Leinster fans have serious gripes about Earls playing 13

:rolleyes:

leakyboots

Anatidaephobia wrote: »

Most rugby fans in general do too. :rolleyes:
He's a winger.

Wouldn't say most fans do, it's only on here I've come across such what I would consider unduly harsh criticism. Reasoned enough mind, but I just think overly harsh compared to the criteria being applied to other players.

It just seems like some of the names being bandied about here (Barnes is barely out of his Munster pajamas c'mon, he can't even be remotely considered yet - he has potential, but that's it) are being given the kind of slack Keith isn't being afforded.

He has been pushed all over the backline on 3 teams (Munster, Ireland and Lions) in his career. He's played 11, 12, 13, and 15. Himself and JDV looked like a great combination when they got a run together (In 2009 he looked sensational at times, which coincided with his longest run in the position)

Most other times he's been in the centre he's had a headless chicken called Mafi (or Tuitoopoo/Johne Murphy for a season... Christ) inside him and a scrum going backwards. Most other young players would struggle under those circumstances.

I think the guy has serious talent but is still a little raw and if he's let settle in one position, in this case, centre, he'll do the job. We saw what he could do when given a run at 11. I think it's a bit too soon for the likes of O'Malley. He may (and hopefully will) turn out to be a fantastic centre, but for the moment, Earls or McFadden for outside centre for the Six Nations for me. I'd leave Bowe as is and it opens up the chance for Trimble and Luke (who I still have my doubts over at the highest level - but he seems to have recovered form (not that I'd read too much into a clear run and being set free by a forward pass and the worst defence by a winger you'll ever see - he finished superbly mind and did look very dangerous over all, very encouraging, I won't take that away from him).

Anyway, neither of the two aforementioned are perfect (and look who they're replacing!) but I think they're the best we've got at this moment. And in terms of squads - both McF and Earls can cover other positions in the backline on matchday, a great asset to have.

so, with perhaps 2 seasons max left in BOD's Ireland career, and we need to get someone to play there for the foreseeable future, you'd like to play a proven winger at 13 instead of a young, developing second centre who might develop into a worthwhile venture?

Are you Declan Kidney?

Foresight isn't that tough.

leakyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

so, with perhaps 2 seasons max left in BOD's Ireland career, and we need to get someone to play there for the foreseeable future, you'd like to play a proven winger at 13 instead of a young, developing second centre who might develop into a worthwhile venture?

Are you Declan Kidney?

Foresight isn't that tough.

No, read what I said. O'Malley isin't ready, yet. How you put Danny Barnes ahead of Earls on your list above is absolutely incomprehensible - Barnes has played more at 12 than 13 so far - you're saying let's put a bábóg completely out of position.

Also, O'Malley has started 4 HEC matches and two as sub. He's suddenly ready for the international scene? 40 league games. Crazy. I don't think he's stuck out that much to parachute him into our national side.

If we're going to put O'Malley in at centre, I think we should go the whole hog and do an Australia and blood 'em all this Six Nations and summer tour and autumn internationals and Six Nations next year by which time it might or might not have bore fruit. But I don't think we have the talent ready to do that at the moment. O'Malley is no more ready than Barnes or Zebo for the Irish team

gally74

Agreed its time to bring youth hhrough

leakyboots

leakyboots wrote: »

No, read what I said. O'Malley isin't ready, yet. How you put Danny Barnes ahead of Earls on your list above is absolutely incomprehensible - Barnes has played more at 12 than 13 so far - you're saying let's put a bábóg completely out of position.

If we're going to put O'Malley in at centre, I think we should go the whole hog and do an Australia and blood 'em all this Six Nations and summer tour and autumn internationals and Six Nations next year by which time it might or might not have bore fruit. But I don't think we have the talent ready to do that at the moment.

twas a list, not a ratings scheme.

Chill Winston

boynesider

Anyone else think Earls' best position would be at full back?

I rate him very highly as an attacker but I just haven't got any confidence in his tackling and defence, especially at international level, and if you can hide a weak tackler anywhere on the field it would be at 15. On current form Irelands wings should be two out of Trimble, Bowe and Fitzgerald but I think Rob Kearney is far from untouchable at full-back.

Earls is at his best when he gets space and IMO he has a bit of the Christian Cullen about him. Wouldn't it be great to have a genuine counter attacking threat at the back? Not sure about the high ball but he seems decent enough in the air from what I've seen.

boynesider

And out of all the young centres I've seen Eoin Griffin from Connacht looks to have the best all round game.

Would love to see him get a shot during the 6 nations but the fact that he plays for Connacht might count against him.

Fireball07

boynesider wrote: »

Anyone else think Earls' best position would be at full back?

I rate him very highly as an attacker but I just haven't got any confidence in his tackling and defence, especially at international level, and if you can hide a weak tackler anywhere on the field it would be at 15. On current form Irelands wings should be two out of Trimble, Bowe and Fitzgerald but I think Rob Kearney is far from untouchable at full-back.

Earls is at his best when he gets space and IMO he has a bit of the Christian Cullen about him. Wouldn't it be great to have a genuine counter attacking threat at the back? Not sure about the high ball but he seems decent enough in the air from what I've seen.

I do think he could be a really good full-back but I don't think he'll ever get picked there ahead of Kearney. Kearney's aerial prowess is valuable and he's a pretty good counter-attacker, although I do think Earls is probably slightly better at that, Kearney is definitely more rounded atm.

If Jones is injured, Earls would be my next choice 15 though after Kearney.

leakyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

twas a list, not a ratings scheme.

Chill Winston

No need for cheeeeel, I'm just making points here, no anger hombre. Watching The Big Lebowski as it happens!

I'll requote this part of my post I had added to - "O'Malley has started 4 HEC matches and two as sub. He's suddenly ready for the international scene? 40 league games. Crazy. I don't think he's stuck out that much to parachute him into our national side."

There's around 8 months between Earls and O'Malley - Earls has a couple of seasons on him, O'Malley hasn't earned it yet, it's as simple as that for me.

To the other poster re: Earls at 15. It's a possibility but I'd fear for him under the high ball. If it meant bringing in Trimble/Fitz at 11, then I could be for it. But it'd just be shipping Earls around the backline again, not good for his long-term development. Either give him the run at centre or at 11.

It's a real shame Felix got injured, I think he'd have lit up our World Cup and ousted Kearney who I don't think has it at the highest level. But that's idle speculation (about Felix, not about Kearney's ability!). Kearney at 15 for Six Nations.

Earls was absolute quality under the high ball in the 6N last year. I'd have no fear for him there.

Again though, I'd question our apparent "need" to play players out of position.

porterbelly

boynesider wrote: »

And out of all the young centres I've seen Eoin Griffin from Connacht looks to have the best all round game.

Would love to see him get a shot during the 6 nations but the fact that he plays for Connacht might count against him.

Sad but true