Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

val_jester

vinny chase wrote: »

Not the same number, no.

Aironi are poorer than the average, but still beat one of the aristocrats of European rugby, Biarritz last season. What chance would Japan have of ever even living with the All Blacks?

As I said, there are very few poor players playing in the Heineken, whereas the RWC will have guys not too far removed from amateur status playing for loads of teams.

I don't get what all your points about Donncha Ryan & Denis Leamy were about then??!

For what it's worth, O'Brien is a better player than Ferris too. Ferris hasn't quite had the opportunity to live up to his potential because of his injury struggles, but for me, O'Brien is still better.

As good as sob is he isn't better than ferris. If he manages to stay fit, ferris will show how good he is this world cup. Its hard to compare ferris and sob provincial form because they play in two very different teams. Sob gets to play with one of the best packs in europe. He doesn't have to do as much tight work as the others can free him up so he can make the big carries.

Ferris on the other hand has to do pretty much everything on his own as he plays for a much weaker pack. Ferris is able to carry as well as sob, he has shown this for ulster, but Ireland tend to use him a different way. His games against bath this season were as good as anything sob has done this year, or any other 6.

If wally had been injured ferris would have been at 6 and the decision would have been between sob and wally. No other Irish player is as strong a tackler as him and if we hope to compete against the southern hemisphere teams we need him fit. You just have to look at his performances against argentina and new zealand last year to see out good he is.

GiftofGab

Why does everyone on here still give their starting backrow if wally was fit, he's not...end of, move on

vinny chase

val_jester wrote: »

As good as sob is he isn't better than ferris. If he manages to stay fit, ferris will show how good he is this world cup. Its hard to compare ferris and sob provincial form because they play in two very different teams. Sob gets to play with one of the best packs in europe. He doesn't have to do as much tight work as the others can free him up so he can make the big carries.

Ferris on the other hand has to do pretty much everything on his own as he plays for a much weaker pack. Ferris is able to carry as well as sob, he has shown this for ulster, but Ireland tend to use him a different way. His games against bath this season were as good as anything sob has done this year, or any other 6.

If wally had been injured ferris would have been at 6 and the decision would have been between sob and wally. No other Irish player is as strong a tackler as him and if we hope to compete against the southern hemisphere teams we need him fit. You just have to look at his performances against argentina and new zealand last year to see out good he is.

I disagree.

I don't underestimate Ferris at all. I think he's an absolutely fantastic player, and in a lot of ways him & O'Brien are cut from the same cloth, in terms of being these rare genetic freaks who are just supreme athletes.

For me though, O'Brien shades it.

twinytwo

vinny chase wrote: »

I disagree.

I don't underestimate Ferris at all. I think he's an absolutely fantastic player, and in a lot of ways him & O'Brien are cut from the same cloth, in terms of being these rare genetic freaks who are just supreme athletes.

For me though, O'Brien shades it.

They are the result of crossing chuck norris with a bear :pac:

val_jester

vinny chase wrote: »

I disagree.

I don't underestimate Ferris at all. I think he's an absolutely fantastic player, and in a lot of ways him & O'Brien are cut from the same cloth, in terms of being these rare genetic freaks who are just supreme athletes.

For me though, O'Brien shades it.

Sob isn't a genetic freak though. He is an extremely strong player. Ferris is a genetic freak due to him having the fast twitch muscles normally only seen in players from the southern hemisphere. Watch in defence and you will see ferris knock people backwards, other Irish players will just stop them. When sob goes on his runs it is because he is so good at targeting the weaker shoulder and building up speed. Ferris is capable of just running straight at other forwards and going through them. Wally is another who is a genetic freak, sob isn't, he is just a really strong farmer who is excellent at rugby.

Sob has yet to put in a performance better than, or as good as, ferris at international level yet. Ferris will be vital for us against australia and if we beat them it will be because of his work rate and defensive hits.

twinytwo

val_jester wrote: »

Sob isn't a genetic freak though. He is an extremely strong player. Ferris is a genetic freak due to him having the fast twitch muscles normally only seen in players from the southern hemisphere. Watch in defence and you will see ferris knock people backwards, other Irish players will just stop them. When sob goes on his runs it is because he is so good at targeting the weaker shoulder and building up speed. Ferris is capable of just running straight at other forwards and going through them. Wally is another who is a genetic freak, sob isn't, he is just a really strong farmer who is excellent at rugby.

Sob has yet to put in a performance better than, or as good as, ferris at international level yet. Ferris will be vital for us against australia and if we beat them it will be because of his work rate and defensive hits.

vinny chase

val_jester wrote: »

Sob isn't a genetic freak though. He is an extremely strong player. Ferris is a genetic freak due to him having the fast twitch muscles normally only seen in players from the southern hemisphere. Watch in defence and you will see ferris knock people backwards, other Irish players will just stop them. When sob goes on his runs it is because he is so good at targeting the weaker shoulder and building up speed. Ferris is capable of just running straight at other forwards and going through them. Wally is another who is a genetic freak, sob isn't, he is just a really strong farmer who is excellent at rugby.

Sob has yet to put in a performance better than, or as good as, ferris at international level yet. Ferris will be vital for us against australia and if we beat them it will be because of his work rate and defensive hits.

I think you're wrong there.

O'Brien's pace and power is freakish. I also think he is a significantly better broken field runner than Ferris, because of his ability you highlighted to exploit broken field opportunities and attack weak inside shoulders.

Saying Ferris can run through lads is all well and good, but it doesn't mean anything. His style is probably too abrasive if anything, and there have been times where I've watched him for Ulster thinking he actively seeks the collisions instead of taking the sensible option and running at space. It's probably a contributory factor to his injury history too.

O'Brien is a better all around footballer for me, and better at turning over ball because of his build.

You're entitled to your opinion on him, but I think O'Brien's the better player.

val_jester

vinny chase wrote: »

I think you're wrong there.

O'Brien's pace and power is freakish. I also think he is a significantly better broken field runner than Ferris, because of his ability you highlighted to exploit broken field opportunities and attack weak inside shoulders.

Saying Ferris can run through lads is all well and good, but it doesn't mean anything. His style is probably too abrasive if anything, and there have been times where I've watched him for Ulster thinking he actively seeks the collisions instead of taking the sensible option and running at space. It's probably a contributory factor to his injury history too.

O'Brien is a better all around footballer for me, and better at turning over ball because of his build.

You're entitled to your opinion on him, but I think O'Brien's the better player.

You said you don't underestimate ferris but if you truly believe the bolded you do.

On the broken field running I said that ferris is capable of running over people but he is smart enough to target weak shoulders. We don't see him running in broken field often for Ireland because he does more defensive work and turns over a lot of ball to let heaslip and wally carry ball.

His injury record has nothing to do with the way he plays the game. The majority of his injuries have come during training and off the pitch. He doesn't actively seek contact but if he has to take contact he always take it on own terms.

If fit he will prove at this world cup why he is one of the best 6s in the world. Sob will still be able to make his carries from 7 because heaslip and ferris are good enough to do the other work to let him carry.

vinny chase

val_jester wrote: »

You said you don't underestimate ferris but if you truly believe the bolded you do.

On the broken field running I said that ferris is capable of running over people but he is smart enough to target weak shoulders. We don't see him running in broken field often for Ireland because he does more defensive work and turns over a lot of ball to let heaslip and wally carry ball.

His injury record has nothing to do with the way he plays the game. The majority of his injuries have come during training and off the pitch. He doesn't actively seek contact but if he has to take contact he always take it on own terms.

If fit he will prove at this world cup why he is one of the best 6s in the world. Sob will still be able to make his carries from 7 because heaslip and ferris are good enough to do the other work to let him carry.

I'm not underestimating Ferris by saying I think O'Brien is a better all around footballer. I think both of them are world class, I just think O'Brien shades it.

His worst injuries I can recall came back in Jan/Feb in a match against Aironi (in contact) & on the Lions tour (in a match situation, though admittedly more unlucky for him).

I think you're the one underestimating O'Brien here. He hasn't had the same number of opportunities at international level due to being two years younger, but in response to one of your earlier posts, his performance against England in March was absolutely top drawer.

val_jester

vinny chase wrote: »

I'm not underestimating Ferris by saying I think O'Brien is a better all around footballer. I think both of them are world class, I just think O'Brien shades it.

His worst injuries I can recall came back in Jan/Feb in a match against Aironi (in contact) & on the Lions tour (in a match situation, though admittedly more unlucky for him).

I think you're the one underestimating O'Brien here. He hasn't had the same number of opportunities at international level due to being two years younger, but in response to one of your earlier posts, his performance against England in March was absolutely top drawer.

Ferris got injured on the lions tour getting off the bus. The aironi injury is the only one he has got in a match beside breaking his finger against wales in 09.

Ferris has much better hands than sob. He is an excellent footballer. Sob was good against england but I don't think he was even the best backrower on the pitch in that match.

I'm not underestimating sob, I've already said he is an excellent player, he is just isn't as good as ferris.

Hagz

I think this WC will be immense for Sean O'Brien provided he gets game-time. I have no doubt that he is a better player than Ferris.

MungBean

Was that team on RTE the actual team or just what the boys thought should be played ?

vinny chase

val_jester wrote: »

Ferris got injured on the lions tour getting off the bus. The aironi injury is the only one he has got in a match beside breaking his finger against wales in 09.

Ferris has much better hands than sob. He is an excellent footballer. Sob was good against england but I don't think he was even the best backrower on the pitch in that match.

I'm not underestimating sob, I've already said he is an excellent player, he is just isn't as good as ferris.

Ferris states himself in this piece that he sustained his knee injury in contact: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/irish/9383886.stm , not getting off the bus.

He twisted his knee earlier in the tour getting off the bus like you say, which caused him to miss the opener. He later returned, and was outstanding in a subsequent game but tore his MCL in a match. He's broken a cheekbone before too. These are a lot of contact injuries, whatever way you want to look at it.

I disagree that his hands are better than O'Brien's.

There's no point carrying on with this. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

vinny chase

Skunkle wrote: »

Was that team on RTE the actual team or just what the boys thought should be played ?

That's the side, it was named in the middle of the night Irish time.

val_jester

vinny chase wrote: »

Ferris states himself in this piece that he sustained his knee injury in contact: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/irish/9383886.stm , not getting off the bus.

He twisted his knee earlier in the tour getting off the bus like you say, which caused him to miss the opener. He later returned, and was outstanding in a subsequent game but tore his MCL in a match. He's broken a cheekbone before too. These are a lot of contact injuries, whatever way you want to look at it.

I disagree that his hands are better than O'Brien's.

There's no point carrying on with this. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

I've no problem leaving it at agreeing to disagree but I feel that people judge ferris without watching him often enough. His hands are excellent and although sob seems to have sorted his out it was a major issue before this season. People make their mind up and state things which plainly aren't true because they have seen them enough.

vinny chase

val_jester wrote: »

I've no problem leaving it at agreeing to disagree but I feel that people judge ferris without watching him often enough. His hands are excellent and although sob seems to have sorted his out it was a major issue before this season. People make their mind up and state things which plainly aren't true because they have seen them enough.

I'll say this again, for maybe the third time:

I don't underestimate Ferris at all. I think he is an absolutely sensational player, a truly world class back row player. There isn't a whole lot between them, and we're really fortunate to have the two at the same time, but for me, O'Brien is the better player.

I don't think I've stated anything which

plainly isn't true.

My opinions on who is the better ball carrier, who is better at turning the ball over, who has better hands etc are subjective.

Pointing out his injury history is factual, and I'm not the first to suggest it is at least linked to his style of rugby, though I know he himself has attempted to deny that in the past.

Neither is a natural openside though, so if forced to pick between them at blindside, I'd opt for O'Brien. Obviously you disagree, but we're going around in circles here.

SOB and Ferris are both absolute machines.

We've yet to see them both playing at the top of their games at the same time. When that happens, it won't matter who's better, because they'll both simply have to play. Even if it means lining up with 9 forwards and losing a winger or something.

That's how good they are.

val_jester

vinny chase wrote: »

I'll say this again, for maybe the third time:

I don't underestimate Ferris at all. I think he is an absolutely sensational player, a truly world class back row player. There isn't a whole lot between them, and we're really fortunate to have the two at the same time, but for me, O'Brien is the better player.


My opinions on who is the better ball carrier, who is better at turning the ball over, who has better hands etc are subjective.

Like I said I'd agree to leave it but the bolded aren't subjective opinions. You can have a different opinion on who is the better player and I can accept that, and I'll admit that a lot of ferris's injuries are in contact even if mainly in training as opposed to matches, but ball carrying, turnovers and hands aren't subjective opinions, they are facts. Sob has admitted that he had problems with his hands but like I already said they have improved to being almost perfect this year. I'll leave it that because I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

vinny chase

val_jester wrote: »

Like I said I'd agree to leave it but the bolded aren't subjective opinions. You can have a different opinion on who is the better player and I can accept that, and I'll admit that a lot of ferris's injuries are in contact even if mainly in training as opposed to matches, but ball carrying, turnovers and hands aren't subjective opinions, they are facts. Sob has admitted that he had problems with his hands but like I already said they have improved to being almost perfect this year. I'll leave it that because I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

This really is reaching the point of ridiculousness.

My opinions on the three things I mentioned are of course subjective, what else could they possibly be?

I'm stating who I believe to have the better hands, who I believe to be the better ball carrier etc.

It's about as clear an example of subjectivity as you'll find.

val_jester

vinny chase wrote: »

This really is reaching the point of ridiculousness.

My opinions on the three things I mentioned are of course subjective, what else could they possibly be?

I'm stating who I believe to have the better hands, who I believe to be the better ball carrier etc.

It's about as clear an example of subjectivity as you'll find.

This is getting ridiculous and I don't want to get in to a prolonged argument but I don't agree that those things are subjective. I'm leaving it though as I don't want to start going around in circles. We've both given our opinions, we've both disagreed, we've tried to talk each other around and failed. No point continuing the discussion.

bamboozle

both Ferris & SOB are top quality players and when fit are among the top 5 blindsides in the world, we're lucky to have both available to us.

irrespective of both their different strengths now, both have had to work very hard on their handling which was poor when they first arrived on the provincial scene.

ambid

This thread is going a little crazy...

wixfjord

val_jester wrote: »

Like I said I'd agree to leave it but the bolded aren't subjective opinions. You can have a different opinion on who is the better player and I can accept that, and I'll admit that a lot of ferris's injuries are in contact even if mainly in training as opposed to matches, but ball carrying, turnovers and hands aren't subjective opinions, they are facts. Sob has admitted that he had problems with his hands but like I already said they have improved to being almost perfect this year. I'll leave it that because I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Eh?!
Are you Rafa Benitez or something?

val_jester

wixfjord wrote: »

Eh?!
Are you Rafa Benitez or something?

I'd said I'd leave it, no need for the insults

Risteard

I'd have Ferris, SOB and Heaslip as the back row and I would have had that even if Wallace was fit tbh. depending on opposition.

As for who'd play 6, it's apples and oranges. SOB and Ferris play pretty different games. SOB's strength is smashing through tackle and then linking up, something he's improved an awful lot on since I first saw him.

Ferris on the other hand is a wrecking ball. He hits rucks hard and puts in tackles that I don't believe anyone else on our team is capable of. That's not to say that Ferris can't carry or SOB can't hit rucks or tackle effectively.

I'd have Ferris at 6. But then again I wouldn't mind see the two of them operate on a left/right basis rather than open/blindside.

I'm of the opinion that our main strength in the backrow is that they work well as a unit, and not just individuals doing their own thing. Ferris and Heaslip for example work very well together with Ireland.

WeeBushy

Don't really care who wears 7 and 6 on their back, the two of them will share the responsibilities of the two roles based on their own strengths. We need to get away from the idea of blindside/openside if we are to play them together imo.

WeeBushy

WeeBushy wrote: »

Don't really care who wears 7 and 6 on their back, the two of them will share the responsibilities of the two roles based on their own strengths. We need to get away from the idea of blindside/openside if we are to play them together imo.

Zactly!

Togther, they are

gcgirl

Flannery is out and Varley is in, just heard on the news

Thanos

gcgirl wrote: »

Flannery is out and Varley is in, just heard on the news

Sean Cronin on the Bench now, I hope Rory stays fit!

No1J

gcgirl wrote: »

Flannery is out and Varley is in, just heard on the news

I feel sorry for him as I think this is one injury too far.