Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

jamiedav2011

Baker87 wrote: »

First one yes, good pace but a pretty clear overlap.

Second one he rushed up well, but after that is no indication of his ability to play winger.

I could probably search youtube and find clips where he shows a complete lack of ability to play wing at a high level but I really couldn't be bothered. I think anybody looking at it from a balanced viewpoint will see he is a center played out of position, and while is a viable option at certain levels, does no offer much at the higher end of competition. Thats my opinion anyway.

Yep that's your opinion indeed.

Not every winger needs to be a Sivivatu.

Baker87

Deleted User wrote: »

I highly doubt that. He's not the kind of player to turn in an exceptionally poor game. He's solid and a workhorse.

Ye in fairness I worded that badly, he will not let a team down thats for sure and rarely makes mistakes. However that doesnt mean he is HC/Int standard winger which is pretty much all I am saying here. He is solid, he is a workhorse, but he isn' much beyond that.

Hagz

It would be a shame if McSharry wasn't called up to the squad. I know it's too late for him to get game-time in the 6 nations, but his form should at least be recognised by him being in the squad.

Tox56

Fireball07 wrote: »

If I was picking the team for a match tomorrow:

15. Zebo (another brilliant game at the weekend, incredible under the high ball)
14. Gilroy (he favours the right wing, doesn't he?)
13. Cave (though the person who says Earls has failed at 13 is wrong)
12. McSharry (the form 12 imo)
11. Earls (class player, Munster missed him against Sarries)
10. Sexton (obviously)
9. Murray
8. Heaslip (although Coughlan is arguably in better form)
7. Henry (another superb player)
6. O'Brien
5. Ryan (although DOC has probably been playing slightly better)
4. McCarthy
3. Ross
2. Best
1. Healy

16. Cronin (good impact player)
17. Kilcoyne (Munster missed him a lot too)
18. Bent
19. DOC
20. POM (good impact player and covers 3 positions)
21. Marshall (best impact scrum-half)
22. Jackson
23. McFadden (probably the best bench option due to veratility)

That backrow would cause havoc at the breakdown and tackle to the end of the earth. Didn't someone say recently Heaslip and Henry the two top tacklers in the whole Heineken Cup? Henry had something like 19 tackles in one game!

Baker87

Deano7788 wrote: »

But nobody here is claiming he should be starting for Ireland, or ahead of Trimble or that he's a top class wing. All we're saying is he's a better option for the bench as he is at the very least a competent winger as well as being a good centre.

My point is basically that he is a good rabo level winger but thats his limit in that position. I'm not claiming he isa bad winger, just not a International level one, or indeed a high end HC one. So i think we are in partial agreement. And yes good potential at center.

Fireball07

Tox56 wrote: »

That backrow would cause havoc at the breakdown and tackle to the end of the earth. Didn't someone say recently Heaslip and Henry the two top tacklers in the whole Heineken Cup? Henry had something like 19 tackles in one game!

Henry is an absolute monster in defence, wouldn't surprise me at all.

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

That backrow would cause havoc at the breakdown and tackle to the end of the earth. Didn't someone say recently Heaslip and Henry the two top tacklers in the whole Heineken Cup? Henry had something like 19 tackles in one game!

Heaslip is now 50/0 in the tackle department in the HEC.

dtpc191991

I did mean Cronin earlier not Strauss. XD. Zebo's getting alot of backing on here at FB. I missed the game on Sunday. Did he play well there against Sarries?

Deano7788

dtpc191991 wrote: »

I did mean Cronin earlier not Strauss. XD. Zebo's getting alot of backing on here at FB. I missed the game on Sunday. Did he play well there against Sarries?

He was very good, his fielding of high balls especially.

mfceiling

Fireball07 wrote: »

If I was picking the team for a match tomorrow:

15. Zebo (another brilliant game at the weekend, incredible under the high ball)
14. Gilroy (he favours the right wing, doesn't he?)
13. Cave (though the person who says Earls has failed at 13 is wrong)
12. McSharry (the form 12 imo)
11. Earls (class player, Munster missed him against Sarries)
10. Sexton (obviously)
9. Murray
8. Heaslip (although Coughlan is arguably in better form)
7. Henry (another superb player)
6. O'Brien
5. Ryan (although DOC has probably been playing slightly better)
4. McCarthy
3. Ross
2. Best
1. Healy

16. Cronin (good impact player)
17. Kilcoyne (Munster missed him a lot too)
18. Bent
19. DOC
20. POM (good impact player and covers 3 positions)
21. Marshall (best impact scrum-half)
22. Jackson
23. McFadden (probably the best bench option due to veratility)

I think that's a fairly good team alright.

Maybe would have trimble or d'arcy on the bench in place of Ferg but that's nit-picking.....decent looking squad though.

Fishooks13

My six nations team

15 Zebo
14 Gilroy
13 Cave
12 McSharry
11 Earls
10 Sexamaphone
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 Henry
6 SOB
5 D Ryan
4 M McCarthy
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

16 Strauss
17 Kilcoyne
18 Bent
19 Touhy
20 POM
21 Marmion/Reddan
22 Jackson
23 McFadden

Tox56

Fishooks13 wrote: »

My six nations team

15 Zebo
14 Gilroy
13 Cave
12 McSharry
10 Sexamaphone
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 POM
5 D Ryan
4 M McCarthy
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

16 Strauss
17 Kilcoyne
18 Bent
19 Touhy
20 Jennings
21 Marmion/Reddan
22 Jackson
23 McFadden

Not enough left winger for me

Glass Prison 1214

Fishooks13 wrote: »

My six nations team

15 Zebo
14 Gilroy
13 Cave
12 McSharry
10 Sexamaphone
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 POM
5 D Ryan
4 M McCarthy
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

16 Strauss
17 Kilcoyne
18 Bent
19 Touhy
20 Jennings
21 Marmion/Reddan
22 Jackson
23 McFadden

Only playing 14 players seems like an unnecessary risk to me I assume you meant to put Earls there, so I agree with your whole team except drop POM to bench, remove Jennings altogether, SOB to 6 and start Henry at 7. This of course assuming Kearney, Ferris, BOD and Bowe won't be available.

Fishooks13

Glass Prison 1214 wrote: »

Only playing 14 players seems like an unnecessary risk to me I assume you meant to put Earls there, so I agree with your whole team except drop POM to bench, remove Jennings altogether, SOB to 6 and start Henry at 7. This of course assuming Kearney, Ferris, BOD and Bowe won't be available.

Sorry forgot about Henry and another winger, will edit accordingly

Deano7788

Tox56 wrote: »

Not enough left winger for me

What will happen is instead of Sexton shifting to 12, when he passes the ball he'll do his loop around and fill in on the wing as well.

Podge_irl

The journalist who is now only marginally better than Conor George wrote:

Both Conor Murray and Ronan O’Gara will have reproached themselves for some of their aberrations in the Stade de France mudbath, but no blame can be attached to either in Vicarage Road on Sunday, least of all O’Gara for that missed drop goal and missed penalty to level matters while Saracens were down to 14 men. He cannot pull rabbits out of the hat every time.

There seems to be a change-for-change-sake mood toward bringing one of the younger out-halves coming through, most obviously Paddy Jackson, to the exclusion of O’Gara for the forthcoming Six Nations. But little about the events of last weekend support that view. Besides caps shouldn’t be handed out like confetti at a wedding. They should be earned. And as of yet, no one has earned the right to displace O’Gara. Aside from his tactical kicking, there were still some sublime examples of his skills’ set, not least his banana kick to touch and the perfectly weighted chip ahead for Simon Zebo in response to Saracens’ blitz defence, and they’ll miss him terribly when he eventually retires.

Ole Gerry seems to be ramping up for a big ROG love in for the 6N. Apparently Ulster losing their first game of the season in December is enough reason for Jackson to lose all claim to back up 10 position. Because obviously Munster have never lost a game with ROG starting ever...

Also, Thornley apparently needs a refresher course in English comprehension seeing as when you set aside ROG's tactical kicking, talking about a great banana kick into touch is somewhat redundant (I debated somewhat on the correct term to use here. I ultimately decided that "****ing idiotic" might be slightly too harsh - but only just).

Tox56

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ole Gerry seems to be ramping up for a big ROG love in for the 6N. Apparently Ulster losing their first game of the season in December is enough reason for Jackson to lose all claim to back up 10 position. Because obviously Munster have never lost a game with ROG starting ever...

Also, Thornley apparently needs a refresher course in English comprehension seeing as when you set aside ROG's tactical kicking, talking about a great banana kick into touch is somewhat redundant (I debated somewhat on the correct term to use here. I ultimately decided that "****ing idiotic" might be slightly too harsh - but only just).

It's getting comical at this stage. Ulster lose their first game and he suddenly comes out of the woodwork.

It's almost like a parody article, really awful. It's strange really, it's not like he has the background of a Conor George, he was a more than decent journalist at one stage.

Sindri

Tox56 wrote: »

It's getting comical at this stage. Ulster lose their first game and he suddenly comes out of the woodwork.

It's almost like a parody article, really awful. It's strange really, it's not like he has the background of a Conor George, he was a more than decent journalist at one stage.

Well maybe there's a disparate criteria between what we expect of an outhalf and ROG and what other people do? That's not to say that either opinion is right or wrong but just people view it differently and base their opinion on different criteria. As well as that not many people would be as impressed with Jackson or Keatley as they would be with how ROG plays (played) and we haven't yet seen either of their full potential so people just wouldn't be aware of how well either could play a game of rugby in comparison to how they know ROG would play (drop goals to win Grand-slams etc.).

When actually analyzed objectively, at the moment, no one could say he's good at anything else other than, kicking, goal kicking, tactical kicking, game management through tactical kicking and he's got a nice pass. And he can be brilliant at those but the other side of the game he's extremely lacking, way too much so atm. He's a tolerated weakness on the pitch and he costs Munster for it, even though he's always worth a good few points he costs a few too. Keatley has a much more rounded game or has the potential to. He could be very good if given the opportunity. I honestly think Munster's fortunes and any hope to become a rising power rest with Keatley (and his ability to play the talent he has outside of him). His confidence must be shot though.

bilston

ROG did play well at Vicarage Road, but let's see how he does over the next 4-5 games because there hasn't been much to write home about in the previous games.

It will be interesting to see how Jackson compares to Sexton and O'Gara in the possible head to heads over the next couple of weeks....if they happen...

Just for the record the argument for ROG to be replaced isn't change for changes sake, it's a reflection of his efforts in November where he bizarrely kicked the ball to touch in overtime when we were points down and assisted Argentina in the scoring of at least one late try in the last game.

Nevertheless as I said he did play well at the weekend and I hope he can keep that form up.

Heroditas

Good God, that's frightful from Thornley.
We must remember to use the "rabbits out of the hat" comment any time Sexton misses a penalty from now on.
What a parody.

Podge_irl

It's not really a ROG thing, I actually thought he was alright against Sarries. It's just absurd journalism, grossly unfair to Jackson and stunningly ill-informed. It's just pathetic.

ssaye

While ROG and other older players are being paid 250k-350k by the IRFU, they will be the sub for Ireland no matter how good Jackson etc is playing imo. They will want to have high earners in the squad and get THEIR money's worth until they retire.

bilston

ssaye wrote: »

While ROG and other older players are being paid 250k-350k by the IRFU, they will be the sub for Ireland no matter how good Jackson etc is playing imo. They will want to have high earners in the squad and get THEIR money's worth until they retire.

This is the problem with central contracts. The problem the IRFU faces is that if it starts offering 1 year contracts to older players then a 2 year offer for more oney from France will seem a lot more attractive.

connemara man

bilston wrote: »

This is the problem with central contracts. The problem the IRFU faces is that if it starts offering 1 year contracts to older players then a 2 year offer for more oney from France will seem a lot more attractive.

on the flip side of that if they leave to cash in in their last season or two dont they lose a tax break they get? someone correct me if im wrong

bilston

connemara man wrote: »

on the flip side of that if they leave to cash in in their last season or two dont they lose a tax break they get? someone correct me if im wrong

I think so, I'm not sure what the exact rules are though.

danthefan

bilston wrote: »

I think so, I'm not sure what the exact rules are though.

They have to retire in Ireland. So if they went to France they'd have to return here to a professional contract and see that out in order to get the tax break.

If a French club want to offer ROG a 2 year deal then let him go I say.

Podge_irl

ssaye wrote: »

While ROG and other older players are being paid 250k-350k by the IRFU, they will be the sub for Ireland no matter how good Jackson etc is playing imo. They will want to have high earners in the squad and get THEIR money's worth until they retire.

I just don't believe that line of argument. For one, the IRFU don't pick the team. Secondly, it would be a truly awful way to run a business - the IRFU ultimately make money from winnings games. I would like to think that nearly everyone involved in professional sports is aware that all contracts are a gamble - a player may end up injured or in poor form. No sense throwing good money after bad in that scenario.

Besides, as evidenced by Thornley's article, there is a real body of support for ROG based on firmly held (and inexplicable) belief that he is still performing. I think that is the reason Kidney is still picking him and he is backed up to an absurd degree by the media. Thornley has become little more than a sounding board for the Irish management at this stage (note his very different approach to Mike Ross of late) and this is just evidence of what they are thinking.

totallegend

The support for retaining ROG is based on exactly the same logic as the continued support for Kidney, i.e.

• he has achieved a lot in the past
• he comes out with occasional flourishes that are seized on by his supporters as evidence that he's still up to the job
• his strengths lie in a type of rugby that is more and more outdated
• the strongest argument for his retention seems to be "well, who else is there?"

All of the above apply equally to ROG as they do to Kidney. So perhaps it's only natural that Thornley's vehement support for Kidney would be mirrored in his opinion on ROG.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

The support for retaining ROG is based on exactly the same logic as the continued support for Kidney, i.e.

• he has achieved a lot in the past
• he comes out with occasional flourishes that are seized on by his supporters as evidence that he's still up to the job
• his strengths lie in a type of rugby that is more and more outdated
  
• the strongest argument for his retention seems to be "well, who else is there?"

All of the above apply equally to ROG as they do to Kidney. So perhaps it's only natural that Thornley's vehement support for Kidney would be mirrored in his opinion on ROG.

easily the weakest of the arguments!

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

easily the weakest of the arguments!

Couldn't agree more, yet there it is:

Gerry Thornley wrote:

... most obviously Paddy Jackson, to the exclusion of O’Gara for the forthcoming Six Nations. But little about the events of last weekend support that view. Besides caps shouldn’t be handed out like confetti at a wedding. They should be earned. And as of yet, no one has earned the right to displace O’Gara.

So we're basically in a situation where a guy is being retained not because of his current ability but because of some sort of entitlement.