Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Deano7788

Baker87 wrote: »

McFadden is barley a HC winger let alone international standard. He offers very little on the wing IMO. Trimble all day long.

That's very harsh on him. I think's he's been impressive this season, especially since he's actually a centre. He seems to be very underrated for some reason.

bilston

Based on currently fit players, I think this will be the team (not necessarily what I'd pick).

15 Zebo
14 Trimble
13 Earls
12 D'Arcy
11 Gilroy
10 Sexton
9 Murray
1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Ryan
5 McCarthy
6 O'Brien
7 Henry
8 Heaslip

The back row is a tough call but Henry gets the nod over POM for me, however Kidney may play SOB at O/S with POM at 6.

Hopefully the injured players will be fit, none of them, as far as I know, have been ruled out yet.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Baker87 wrote: »

McFadden is barley a HC winger let alone international standard. He offers very little on the wing IMO. Trimble all day long.

McFadden ahead of Trimble for the 23 shirt because he can cover the back line from 11 to 14 at an acceptable level.

Baker87

Deano7788 wrote: »

That's very harsh on him. I think's he's been impressive this season, especially since he's actually a centre. He seems to be very underrated for some reason.

I'm not saying he is a bad player, he is a 12 all day long and needs to get a run there now. But as a winger he is very limited, can put the head down and make a few hard yards after contact buy doesn't offer much else.

I just dont understand why he hasn't been given more game time at 12, given its a problem position for both Leinster and Ireland.

Baker87

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

McFadden ahead of Trimble for the 23 shirt because he can cover the back line from 11 to 14 at an acceptable level.

Trimble can cover the center and can be quite effective there too. One game in Twickenham doesn't mean he can never play center again.

irishbucsfan

Baker87 wrote: »

Trimble can cover the center and can be quite effective there too. One game in Twickenham doesn't mean he can never play center again.

Trimble really can't cover center at international level. I can't remember the last time he played there properly. He is no longer a center.

ssaye

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Trimble really can't cover center at international level. I can't remember the last time he played there properly. He is no longer a center.

Trimble is a better winger than Fergus but Fergus is a better option in a squad due to his abilities in wing/centre and kicking from the spot imo.

Hagz

Earls would be my 23.

molloyjh

Baker87 wrote: »

McFadden is barley a HC winger let alone international standard. He offers very little on the wing IMO. Trimble all day long.

Baker87 wrote: »

I'm not saying he is a bad player, he is a 12 all day long and needs to get a run there now. But as a winger he is very limited, can put the head down and make a few hard yards after contact buy doesn't offer much else.

I just dont understand why he hasn't been given more game time at 12, given its a problem position for both Leinster and Ireland.

He's scored 4 tries in 8 starts and 8 sub appearances (all of which were less than 15 mins, 5 of which were for less than 10). In the one (uncapped) game where he played the opposite side to Gilroy he scored 2 tries to Gilroys 3. He's played from 11-14 at both HEC and international level. His form of late is arguably the best he's ever shown too. I think that's incredibly harsh on him.

I do agree he's primarily a 12 and needs more time there, but the injuries this season at Leinster have meant his ability to play on the wing has forced him there. He won't be playing 12 for Ireland until he does for Leinster.

thomond2006

At this stage Zebo is a better option at fullback than Earls.

dregin

Earls has tried and failed @ 13. Time to give Cave a solid shot at it.

Baker87

molloyjh wrote: »

He's scored 4 tries in 8 starts and 8 sub appearances (all of which were less than 15 mins, 5 of which were for less than 10). In the one (uncapped) game where he played the opposite side to Gilroy he scored 2 tries to Gilroys 3. He's played from 11-14 at both HEC and international level. His form of late is arguably the best he's ever shown too. I think that's incredibly harsh on him.

I do agree he's primarily a 12 and needs more time there, but the injuries this season at Leinster have meant his ability to play on the wing has forced him there. He won't be playing 12 for Ireland until he does for Leinster.

Ok lets just discount the Fiji game for a start here, what kind of level were they at? Certainly not even Rabo imo, probably more like "A" so that game and the tries scored in it don't really hold any water, for me anyway.

Try stats can be very misleading too I think, a hooker could of scored that amount of tries, but that doesn't mean he would be an effective wing. I just can't recall any one time i've seen McFadden play 14 and think to myself "that was a great piece of wing play there".....he just doesn't offer anything above what you would expect from an bang average winger. Would he start at 14 in any other team in Ireland? Certainly not at Munster or Ulster and it would be a very tight call Connacht.

ssaye

Baker87 wrote: »

Ok lets just discount the Fiji game for a start here, what kind of level were they at? Certainly not even Rabo imo, probably more like "A" so that game and the tries scored in it don't really hold any water, for me anyway.

Try stats can be very misleading too I think, a hooker could of scored that amount of tries, but that doesn't mean he would be an effective wing. I just can't recall any one time i've seen McFadden play 14 and think to myself "that was a great piece of wing play there".....he just doesn't offer anything above what you would expect from an bang average winger. Would he start at 14 in any other team in Ireland? Certainly not at Munster or Ulster and it would be a very tight call Connacht.

Massive Fergus hate here. Considering he is playing for the top province in Ireland and has pushed his way into the Ireland setup too. He has bulked up in defence and kept Clermont to 1 try home and away in the Heineken cup and scored too. Our opinions are at least backed up.

And saying try stats can be misleading, do you want to gauge someone on tackles made, yards carried, haircut?

Deano7788

ssaye wrote: »

Massive Fergus hate here. Considering he is playing for the top province in Ireland and has pushed his way into the Ireland setup too. He has bulked up in defence and kept Clermont to 1 try home and away in the Heineken cup and scored too. Our opinions are at least backed up.

And saying try stats can be misleading, do you want to gauge someone on tackles made, yards carried, haircut?

The ultimate decider:

Who's profile picture looks better:



or



You decide.

Tox56

Baker87 wrote: »

Ok lets just discount the Fiji game for a start here, what kind of level were they at? Certainly not even Rabo imo, probably more like "A" so that game and the tries scored in it don't really hold any water, for me anyway.

Try stats can be very misleading too I think, a hooker could of scored that amount of tries, but that doesn't mean he would be an effective wing. I just can't recall any one time i've seen McFadden play 14 and think to myself "that was a great piece of wing play there".....he just doesn't offer anything above what you would expect from an bang average winger. Would he start at 14 in any other team in Ireland? Certainly not at Munster or Ulster and it would be a very tight call Connacht.

It was at 11, and against questionable opposition, but 2:04 on this is a pretty good piece of wing play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGn_1nwUfRg

1:06 on this isn't bad either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvzegWUWILw

And that's only in the last few months.

I think he's a better 12 too, but I think you're doing a disservice to his ability. It's no shame to not be as good a winger as Gilroy/Trimble, Zebo, Howlett or Bowe. He certainly stood out in the Stade Marcel Michelen a few weeks ago.

Teferi

I think McFadden has had a really good season so far myself. Tries his balls off and leaves everything on the pitch. Probably not as good as out and out wingers like Trimble but an invaluable squad player. Would like to see him get a few more games at 12.

irishbucsfan

Trimble is a specialist winger so I'd be much happier with him there if we're talking about a start. McFadden covers more positions so I'd be happy to have him at 23

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Trimble is a specialist winger so I'd be much happier with him there if we're talking about a start. McFadden covers more positions so I'd be happy to have him at 23

I'd agree with this myself. I was originally making the point that in the OP selection I put Ferg at 23 rather than Trimble. Not that I'd start Ferg. That said he's put in a massive shift this season and has been impressive consistently for 3 months now against both poor opposition and some very good opposition too.

bilston

Trimble starts on the wing ahead of McFadden but McFadden benches ahead of Trimble due to versatility...and no Trimble doesn't cover centre at test level, he doesn't even really do it for Ulster. Bowe (if fit), Payne and Allen would all move to the centre before Trimble...

As things stand with BOD, Kearney and Bowe injured Trimble starts and McFadden benches, however if anyone of the above are fit then the backline is shuffled about and Trimble drops out completely with McFadden remaining on the bench. That's how I see it anyway.

Baker87

Tox56 wrote: »

It was at 11, and against questionable opposition, but 2:04 on this is a pretty good piece of wing play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGn_1nwUfRg

1:06 on this isn't bad either:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvzegWUWILw

And that's only in the last few months.

I think he's a better 12 too, but I think you're doing a disservice to his ability. It's no shame to not be as good a winger as Gilroy/Trimble, Zebo, Howlett or Bowe. He certainly stood out in the Stade Marcel Michelen a few weeks ago.

Those clips pretty much back up what I am saying, a good Rabo winger and not much more

Tox56

Baker87 wrote: »

Those clips pretty much back up what I am saying, a good Rabo winger and not much more

They prove he is a good Rabo winger certainly, not sure about the second part. Sure I could find plenty of clips of BOD standing out at Rabo level too.

Baker87

ssaye wrote: »

Massive Fergus hate here. Considering he is playing for the top province in Ireland and has pushed his way into the Ireland setup too. He has bulked up in defence and kept Clermont to 1 try home and away in the Heineken cup and scored too. Our opinions are at least backed up.

And saying try stats can be misleading, do you want to gauge someone on tackles made, yards carried, haircut?

Sorry I would have say most of your post is nonsense.

ssaye wrote: »

Considering he is playing for the top province in Ireland

Pushed his way into the top province in the country yet wouldn't start for definite for 2 of the other 3 and very questionable with the third, make of that what you will.

ssaye wrote: »

pushed his way into the Ireland setup too

Which I think most of us would agree shouldnt have been the case, at 14 at least, which is my point here. He is a center.

ssaye wrote: »

He has bulked up in defence and kept Clermont to 1 try home and away in the Heineken cup and scored too. Our opinions are at least backed up.

A winger shouldn't be judged on "tries against" imo. Defence is so much a collective effort its hard to judge one player alone. However would you say Clermonts wingers were effective on Saturday, I would. He scored a breakaway in the last minute when the game was dead, didn't see much of that when Clermont were actually still playing.

ssaye wrote: »

Our opinions are at least backed up.

My opinion is also backed up by the fact he has been present in a Irish backline which seem incapable of scoring tries out wide, and a Leinster team who have scored 3 tries in 4 HC games.

I dont hate McFadden. Dont question his work rate or commintment for a second. I just think he is a very average winger. He is a 12 and thats where he is most effective.

Baker87

Tox56 wrote: »

They prove he is a good Rabo winger certainly, not sure about the second part. Sure I could find plenty of clips of BOD standing out at Rabo level too.

Difference is BOD has plenty of clips standing out at international level and HC to go with that!

ScissorPaperRock

If R. Kearney is back fit for the 6N it'll be interesting to see what'll happen with the back line given the competition between Zebo, Trimble, Gilroy, McFadden and Earls - if BOD is fit.

Some talented players would be left out. McFadden and Earls offer versatility, while Zebo and Gilroy are probably the most exciting going forward. It might be good to see Earls on the wing again too though. I haven't been hugely impressed with him at centre tbh.

jamiedav2011

Baker87 wrote: »

Difference is BOD has plenty of clips standing out at international level and HC to go with that!

http://youtu.be/YsYcFuzE8_0?t=7m8s

http://youtu.be/rYx-MC9tfgo?t=36m10s

Tox56

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

http://youtu.be/YsYcFuzE8_0?t=7m8s

http://youtu.be/rYx-MC9tfgo?t=36m10s

http://youtu.be/-L0iFxCf02o?t=3m37s

If that last offload from Sexton had gone to hand it would have been one of the tries of the season

Baker87

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

http://youtu.be/YsYcFuzE8_0?t=7m8s

http://youtu.be/rYx-MC9tfgo?t=36m10s

First one yes, good pace but a pretty clear overlap.

Second one he rushed up well, but after that is no indication of his ability to play winger.

I could probably search youtube and find clips where he shows a complete lack of ability to play wing at a high level but I really couldn't be bothered. I think anybody looking at it from a balanced viewpoint will see he is a center played out of position, and while is a viable option at certain levels, does no offer much at the higher end of competition. Thats my opinion anyway.

Fireball07

If I was picking the team for a match tomorrow:

15. Zebo (another brilliant game at the weekend, incredible under the high ball)
14. Gilroy (he favours the right wing, doesn't he?)
13. Cave (though the person who says Earls has failed at 13 is wrong)
12. McSharry (the form 12 imo)
11. Earls (class player, Munster missed him against Sarries)
10. Sexton (obviously)
9. Murray
8. Heaslip (although Coughlan is arguably in better form)
7. Henry (another superb player)
6. O'Brien
5. Ryan (although DOC has probably been playing slightly better)
4. McCarthy
3. Ross
2. Best
1. Healy

16. Cronin (good impact player)
17. Kilcoyne (Munster missed him a lot too)
18. Bent
19. DOC
20. POM (good impact player and covers 3 positions)
21. Marshall (best impact scrum-half)
22. Jackson
23. McFadden (probably the best bench option due to veratility)

Deano7788

Baker87 wrote: »

First one yes, good pace but a pretty clear overlap.

Second one he rushed up well, but after that is no indication of his ability to play winger.

I could probably search youtube and find clips where he shows a complete lack of ability to play wing at a high level but I really couldn't be bothered. I think anybody looking at it from a balanced viewpoint will see he is a center played out of position, and while is a viable option at certain levels, does no offer much at the higher end of competition. Thats my opinion anyway.

But nobody here is claiming he should be starting for Ireland, or ahead of Trimble or that he's a top class wing. All we're saying is he's a better option for the bench as he is at the very least a competent winger as well as being a good centre.

Baker87

Baker87 wrote: »

First one yes, good pace but a pretty clear overlap.

Second one he rushed up well, but after that is no indication of his ability to play winger.

I could probably search youtube and find clips where he shows a complete lack of ability to play wing at a high level but I really couldn't be bothered. I think anybody looking at it from a balanced viewpoint will see he is a center played out of position, and while is a viable option at certain levels, does no offer much at the higher end of competition. Thats my opinion anyway.

I highly doubt that. He's not the kind of player to turn in an exceptionally poor game. He's solid and a workhorse.