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jfk taken out by mob??? **Contains Graphic Images**

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 246 ✭✭Joshua Jones


    bog master wrote: »

    There is no conflicting evidence.
    You people keep putting forward 'gaps' in the evidence that hint at a conspiracy

    You've explained conflicting.
    the rifle was not a Mauser 7.65mm.

    An eye-witness testimony, there moments after the shooting in the book depository, clearly states that written on the side of the rifle was Mauser 7.65. This video has already been shown to you to which you became irate and called me a liar, for some reason.
    But instead you switch the goalposts by picking up on some new point which has been argued to death already.

    A shillers last stand.
    you finally accepted it was a rifle.

    When you assume you make an ass out of you and an.......well, that's pretty much it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭bog master


    bog master wrote: »

    There is no conflicting evidence.
    You people keep putting forward 'gaps' in the evidence that hint at a conspiracy e.g. the rifle was not a Mauser 7.65mm.

    When I demonstrated you people that the rifle was a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after a lot of ridiculous argument, you finally accepted it was a rifle.

    But instead you switch the goalposts by picking up on some new point which has been argued to death already.

    This is just going around in circles.

    I have no interest in arguing with you any more.

    This is where you are plainly blind or refuse to understand the term conflicting evidence. As I have pointed out over and over, there is conflicting evidence in almost every facet of this case. You didnt debate or put forward your reasoning on why it should be ignored.Even your smug point on why Oswlad ordered a rifle with an alias but sent it to himself under his real name.Your brilliant articulate response was "he was an idiot".

    And I asked you about the ad which you posted, as to which issue.Do you know? Maybe the Warren Commission, whom you have complete faith just happened to make a MISTAKE and put in an ad from a totally different magazine from Nov 63 which just happens to show a 40" rifle which fits in with their pre conceived idea that Oswald did it.

    And yet, I am willing to concede as posted before, and which weakens my case on whether Oswald brought a rifle into work, a 36" rifle allows Oswald to put it under his armpit and cup the end with his hand.

    That is the difference in our style, I look and question evidence and testimony to see how it fits into the whole picture.And I have been proved wrong on some points I did believe in years ago, and put my hands up and admitted I was wrong. You have a pre conceived idea and refuse to look at and think for yourslef about other conflicting evidence. Use your head, think and reason. Be man enough to say, yeah, that does not make sense or does weaken my side of the case but.......


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭fergus o brien


    yes i have an opionion as do many others on this case . i believe in listening to the facts and making an honest and informed decision based on that alone. there are many lies and untruths through out the internet about this case,a lot of people come to a conclusion of oswalds guilt through ignorance (i mean not being aware of the truth or the true facts) and others think he is guilty by reading lies in books and various sites ..if people use their mind and common sense and open their eyes they will see the truth.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    And what is your particular version of the truth good man?

    Where have your facts come from?

    Also, please tell me you are not one of those who claim to be interested in listening to all the facts and learning as much as possible when what you really do is just take what supports your own pre conceived theories and hold them up as gospel while refusing to acknowledge any opposing evidence


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭fergus o brien


    "And what is your particular version of the truth good man?"
    the truth is the truth plain and simple not anyones version of it ,the true facts of the case backed up by solid evidence ,evidence is documents/photographic and video evidence /witness statments and sworn affidavits .

    "Where have your facts come from?"
    does it matter where information comes from as long as iits accurate.

    "Also, please tell me you are not one of those who claim to be interested in listening to all the facts and learning as much as possible when what you really do is just take what supports your own pre conceived theories and hold them up as gospel while refusing to acknowledge any opposing evidence "
    as i said above what ever the truth is it is ,preconcieved ideas dont come into it,and yes i am always interested to learn as much as i can about this case .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 202 ✭✭SparrowTown


    Completely irrelevant.

    The Warren Commission, The Rockerfeller Commission, The US House Select Committee on Assassinations and Ramsey Clarke Panel all examined the physical evidence thoroughly and came to same conclusions.

    Oswald acted alone, fired three shots killing JFK and wounding Governor Connally.

    The physical evidence that Oswald fired the shots is absolutely overwhelming.
    how do you explain doctors at
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8440302925206489846#
    saying there was a large exit wound in the back of his head?


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭fergus o brien


    all the doctors who viewed jfk at parklands (without fail) said jfk had a large wound to the right rear of his head ,they in fact can be seen in both video and photograph showing the area of jfks head where the wound was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 theworkingman


    mysterious wrote: »
    Oh I'm back after that ban:rolleyes:

    Jfk was taken out for exposing the truth end of. It was only a matter of time before the CIA and secret service were gonna take him out. In fact it was planned for quite some time, since his death was a ritual, like 9/11, Diana and among many other traumatic events to "traumatize" the nations of nations.

    Same ol same ol,

    Question is, can the people of "boards" .ie handle the truth.


    i agree totally jfk was killed by the globalists as he was going to disband the fed and pull the troops out of vietnam which was big business in another illegal war started by the gulf of tonkin farcical incident:mad:


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 949 ✭✭✭maxxie


    JFK threatened the stability of the banking system! enough for him to be killed!


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭fergus o brien


    i agree with maxxie a lot of people stood to lose a lot of billions had jfk lived .


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 949 ✭✭✭maxxie


    i agree with maxxie a lot of people stood to lose a lot of billions had jfk lived .

    We dont have to look beyond our country to see what influence the banks have.
    Look at the ruthless people who run the American federal reserve!


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭fergus o brien


    and the federal reserve is no more federal than fedex ,its privately owned.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 949 ✭✭✭maxxie


    and the federal reserve is no more federal than fedex ,its privately owned.

    exactly fergus the rabbit hole goes deep my friend


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    wuben wrote: »
    has anyone heard this about jfk killed by mob??

    Nobody offended with the blaming of Italians/ Italian Americans?

    Anyone?...:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Nobody offended with the blaming of Italians/ Italian Americans?

    Anyone?...:confused:

    I don't seem to recall them being blamed for almost anything you can think of on an almost daily basis.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    meglome wrote: »
    I don't seem to recall them being blamed for almost anything you can think of on an almost daily basis.

    So that's a no then?...Funny that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    So that's a no then?...Funny that.

    Apples and Oranges. Personally I have no problem in general terms that anyone is criticised or questioned. However a witch-hunt is another thing completely. I haven't spotted anyone out to get the Italians so no reason to mention it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Its not a no. Its someone pointing out that the question you asked is inaccurate. No-one is blaming these groups you've singled out, nor even highlighting it as a common attribute amongst involved parties (thus suggesting a causal link).

    If someone were to ask you if you had stopped beating your wife yet, I'm pretty sure you would understand the difference between "I don't beat my wife" and "No, I haven't" as answers.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Nobody offended with the blaming of Italians/ Italian Americans?

    Anyone?...:confused:
    Cut it out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭silkworm53


    All the physical and circumstantial evidence proves Oswald acted alone in the assassination of JFK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 752 ✭✭✭bog master


    silkworm53 wrote: »
    All the physical and circumstantial evidence proves Oswald acted alone in the assassination of JFK.

    Perhaps you might list some of the evidence?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭silkworm53


    bog master wrote: »
    Perhaps you might list some of the evidence?

    Certainly.:)

    1.Oswald owned the rifle found in the TSBD after the shooting. The rifle was purchased by mail order under his habitual assumed name - A. Hidell -filled out in his own handwriting and the rifle was mailed to a Dallas PO box he used.
    2.Oswald owned the handgun used to shoot Tippit also purchased by mail order in Oswald's handwriting and the weapon was also mailed to the same PO box.
    3.Marina Oswald photographed her husband brandishing the guns. Negatives of the photographs were found among his possessions in the Paine's garage. Mrs. Oswald testified that she burned the originals in an obvious attempt to cover for her husband.
    4.Wesley Frazier testified that Oswald brought a long brown paper package to work the morning of the shooting.
    5.Oswald's 'curtain rods' story is bogus. No curtain rods were ever found and his room did not need curtains or rods.
    6.Oswald was last seen prior to the shooting on the 6th flr of the TSBD when his colleagues went down to watch the motorcade.
    7. Oswald's palm print was found on the dissembled rifle barrel. Fibres of his shirt were found in the crevice between the metal butt plate and wooden stock of the rifle. His prints were found on the boxes stacked around his firing nest. The same paper parcel used to transport his rifle to work was found near the nest.
    8. The only bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells found in Dealey Plaza were those that could be matched to Oswald rifle and no other weapon.
    9. The overwhelming majority of witnesses in Dealey Plaza heard 3 shots fired from the Texas School Book Despository. Several witnesses saw a man fitting Oswald's description in the 6th floor south east corner window.
    Howard Brennan saw Oswald fire the shots. His description of the assassin was the description broadcast on DPD bulletins. Tippet undoubtedly pulled over beside Oswald before he was murdered because he matched the description. Two employees of the TSBD who were on the 5th floor directly below Oswald's perch heard three shots and three shell casings hitting the floor above their heads.
    10. Oswald visited his wife's home at the Paine resident only once on a weekday during her stay there. That day was Thurday 21st November 1963. When the police searched the garage where he kept his rifle wrapped in a blanker the rifle was missing.
    11. Oswald left behind his wedding ring and all his money, which suggests that he did not plan on coming back.
    12. Oswald was the only Depository employee who went missing after the shooting.
    13. A man fitting Oswald's description was seen shooting Officer JD Tippet and identified in a police line up. It was proven that only Oswald's handgun could have fired the fatal shots. The same handgun was found on Oswald when he tried to draw and shoot arresting police officers.
    Oswald's zip up jacket was found in a car lot between the scene of the Tippet shooting and the Texas Theatre where he was apprehended. The same type of ammo used in the Tippet shooting was found in his pockets.
    Oswald must have shot Tippit because he was trying to escape capture.
    14. Oswald tried to assassinate General Edwin Walker which demonstrates he was a violent man. A 6.5mm bullet was used in the attempted murder. Oswald admitted his violent act to his wife. Photographs of Walker's home were found among his possessions.
    15. The ballistic evidence shows that only Oswald's rifle could have been responsible for the two bullets that the autopsy shows struck President Kennedy in the back of the head and the back of the neck. It has been proven that the CE399 bullet wounded both Kennedy and Connally most likely at frame 223 of the Zapruder film.
    16. It has been proven that 3 shots could be fired accurately in less than 5.6 secs from the same height and distance as the 6th floor TSBD window at a head and shoulder sized target moving at 11 mph using the same type and model as Oswald's rifle.
    17. Oswald's USMC training shows that he could have been well capable of killing the President.
    18. It has been proven at Oswald could have fired the shots, stashed his rifle, descended the stairs to the lunchroom in time to be confronted by Officer Baker in less than 90 secs after the shooting.
    19. It has been proven that Oswald could have left the TSBD, got a bus, changed to cab, retrieved his gun from his boarding house and arrived at the scene of the Tippet shooting in time to commit the murder.
    20. Oswald lied repeatedly during police questioning.

    The conclusion is absolutely inescapable.

    Oswald murdered President Kennedy and murdered Officer Tippit and acted alone.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 949 ✭✭✭maxxie


    Why was the car cleaned immediately after the murder? Appears something wanted to be hidden!?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭silkworm53


    maxxie wrote: »
    Why was the car cleaned immediately after the murder? Appears something wanted to be hidden!?

    Because the inside of the car was splattered in blood and brain matter and it was a gruesome sight.

    The physical evidence however shows that Kennedy was struck by two bullets.

    1. In the back of the base of the neck above the level of the shoulder blade and to the right of the spine at the level the C6 vertebra before it exited the base of the trachea below the larynx.

    Diagram1-80-150.jpg

    A. Bullet Hole in Back of Suit Collar and Shirt.
    B. Bullet Hole in Back.
    C. Halo around Bullet Hole.
    D. Spine Struck by Bullet.
    E. & F. Pleura and Lung Bruised.
    G. Air in Tissues.
    H. Hole in Trachea.
    I. Tracheostomy.
    J. Holes in Front of Shirt.
    K. Nick in Necktie.

    jfk-book.jpg

    2. The fatal bullet struck Kennedy in the back of the head and exited the top front right side:

    Photo_hsca_ex_66.jpg


    foxautangel.jpg

    1p244f56.jpg

    It is clear therefore that two fatal shots came from above and behind from the direction of the 6th floor TSBD south east corner window.



    There was nothing to remain hidden. Oswald did it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭fergus o brien


    you make many valid points but that doesnt mean you are correct with all these points.

    1.Oswald owned the rifle found in the TSBD after the shooting. The rifle was purchased by mail order under his habitual assumed name - A. Hidell -filled out in his own handwriting and the rifle was mailed to a Dallas PO box he used.

    his post office box account did not have A hiddel named so no post for A
    hiddel would be sent to that box.

    2.Oswald owned the handgun used to shoot Tippit also purchased by mail order in Oswald's handwriting and the weapon was also mailed to the same PO box.
    the hand gun is in guestion also.

    3.Marina Oswald photographed her husband brandishing the guns. Negatives of the photographs were found among his possessions in the Paine's garage. Mrs. Oswald testified that she burned the originals in an obvious attempt to cover for her husband.

    marina testified to taking one photograph (when 3 would turn up over the years ) there are many problems with marinas story for obvious reasons.

    4.Wesley Frazier testified that Oswald brought a long brown paper package to work the morning of the shooting.

    true ,but he and his sister saw the package and said it was 24 inches max (oswald had this parcel under his armpit and cupped in the palm of his hand )the rifle even broken down was 30 plus inches (see buel wesley frazier warren commission testimony).

    5.Oswald's 'curtain rods' story is bogus. No curtain rods were ever found and his room did not need curtains or rods.

    yes no curtain rods were found(as far as we know) ,wrong his landlady was seen hanging curtains in his room the evening of jfks assassination.

    6.Oswald was last seen prior to the shooting on the 6th flr of the TSBD when his colleagues went down to watch the motorcade.

    true ,he was seen about 11.50 am by his workmates and his supervisor bill shelly (when shelly and his workmates went down from the sixth floor for lunch he was left behind ) and he said send the elevator back up (he was next seen on the first floor by his supervisor bill shelly at around 11.55 am) whare he was seen by other witnesses around 12.00 and somewhere between 12.15 and 12.25 he was seen in the second floor canteen by carolyn arnold.

    7. Oswald's palm print was found on the dissembled rifle barrel. Fibres of his shirt were found in the crevice between the metal butt plate and wooden stock of the rifle. His prints were found on the boxes stacked around his firing nest. The same paper parcel used to transport his rifle to work was found near the nest.

    the paper bag (which i assume is the parcel you mention has never been linked to oswald) he was stationed on the sixth floor filling orders is it not reasonable to assume his prints would be on many many parcels,his palm print was only found on the rifle after his death (strangely this coincided with a visit by "agents" to the morgue where he was finger and palm printed) the morgue attendant had to clean the hands of oswald afer this, as far as i know these fibres cant be 100% linked to oswald or anyone else.

    8. The only bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells found in Dealey Plaza were those that could be matched to Oswald rifle and no other weapon.

    no fragments found were matched to the "oswald rifle" its not possible to match fragments to a rifle or gun to the exclussion of all others, yes empty shells were found and the so called magic bullet ,wether these were the shells of bullets fired at jfk debateable as is the magic bullet.

    9. The overwhelming majority of witnesses in Dealey Plaza heard 3 shots fired from the Texas School Book Despository. Several witnesses saw a man fitting Oswald's description in the 6th floor south east corner window.

    some where in the region of 50 to 60 witnesses said shots came from the so called grassy knoll area (no more or no less than those that said shots came from the book depository) as for the several witnesses who saw a man fitting oswalds description in the window please provide the witness names and either their sworn affidavits or warren commission testimony to back this up.

    im only at number 9 its getting late now ,i hope to reply to the others tomorrow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭silkworm53


    1.
    his post office box account did not have A hiddel named so no post for A
    hiddel would be sent to that box.

    That's completely untrue. This is where the issue is addressed in the Warren Report:
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p2
    During the evening of November 22, 1963, a review of the records of Crescent Firearms revealed that the firm had shipped an Italian carbine, serial number C2766, to Klein's Sporting Goods Co., of Chicago, Ill. After searching their records from 10 p.m. to 4 a.m. the officers of Klein's discovered that a rifle bearing serial number C2766 had been shipped to one A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex., on March 20, 1963. (See Waldman Exhibit No. 7, p. 120.) According to its microfilm records, Klein's received an order for a rifle on March 13, 1963, on a coupon clipped from the February 1963 issue of the American Rifleman magazine. The order coupon was signed, in hand printing, "A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas." (See Commission Exhibit No. 773, p. 120.) It was sent in an envelope bearing the same name and return address in handwriting. Document examiners for the Treasury Department and the FBI testified unequivocally that the bold printing on the face of the mail-order coupon was in the hand printing of Lee Harvey Oswald and that the writing on the envelope was also his. Oswald's writing on these and other documents was identified by comparing the writing and printing on the documents in question with that appearing on documents known to have been written by Oswald, such as his letters, passport application, and endorsements of checks. (See app. X, p. 568-569.) In addition to the order coupon the envelope contained a. U.S. postal money order for $21.45, purchased as No. 2, 202, 130, 462 in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963. The canceled money order was obtained from the Post Office Department. Opposite the printed words "Pay To" were written the words "Kleins Sporting Goods," and opposite the printed word "From" were written the words "A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915 Dallas, Texas." These words were also in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald.(See Commission Exhibit No. 788, p. 120.) From Klein's records it was possible to trace the processing of the order after its receipt. A bank deposit made on March 13, 1963, included an item of $21.45. Klein's shipping order form shows an imprint made by the cash register which recorded the receipt of $21.45 on March 13, 1963. This price included $19.95 for the rifle and the scope, and $1 for postage and handling. The rifle without the scope cost only $12.78.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p2

    2.
    the hand gun is in guestion also.

    Wrong again.

    This issue is also discussed in the Warren Report:
    Heinz W. Michaelis, office manager of both George Rose & Co., Inc., and Seaport Traders, Inc., identified records of Seaport Traders, Inc., which showed that a ".38 S and W Special two-inch Commando, serial number V510210" was shipped on March 20, 1963, to A. J. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. The invoice was prepared on March 13, 1963; the revolver was actually shipped on March 20 by Railway Express. The balance due on the purchase was $19.95.
    Michaelis furnished the shipping copy of the invoice, and the Railway Express Agency shipping documents, showing that $19.95, plus $1.27 shipping charge, had been collected from the consignee, Hidell. (See Michaelis Exhibits Nos. 2, 4, 5, p. 173.) Handwriting experts, Alwyn Cole of the Treasury Department and James C. Cadigan of the FBI, testified before the Commission that the writing on the coupon was Oswald's. The signature of the witness, D. F. Drittal, who attested that the fictitious Hidell was an American citizen and had not been convicted of a felony, was also in Oswald's handwriting.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p26

    3.
    marina testified to taking one photograph (when 3 would turn up over the years ) there are many problems with marinas story for obvious reasons.

    There are no problems with Marina's story. She admitted she took the photos and she has never changed her story.
    The photos that became Warren Commission exhibits were developed from the negatives found in the Paine's garage among Oswald's possessions.
    One photo turned up in the possessions of George de Mohrenschildt who had befriended Oswald in the summer of 1962.
    Oswald had sent him a print of one of his backyard photos with the words "To my friend George from Lee Oswald" with the date '5/IV/63' and the phrase "“'Hunter of fascists, ha-ha-ha!” written in Russian scrawled on the back. The writing was in Oswald's handwriting.

    4.
    true ,but he and his sister saw the package and said it was 24 inches max (oswald had this parcel under his armpit and cupped in the palm of his hand )the rifle even broken down was 30 plus inches (see buel wesley frazier warren commission testimony)

    Mrs. Randle said the packages was about 28 inches long.
    The Warren Commission concluded that in any case both Randle and her brother Wesley were mistaken about the length of the package.

    Rifle-Bag-Blanket.jpg
    The Long and Bulky Package



    On the morning of November 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald left the Paine house in Irving at approximately 7:15 a.m. while Marina Oswald was still in bed. Neither she nor Mrs. Paine saw him leave the house. About half-a-block away from the Paine house was the residence of Mrs. Linnie Mac Randle, the sister of the man with whom Oswald drove to workBuell Wesley Frazier. Mrs. Randle stated that on the morning of November 22, while her brother was eating breakfast, she looked out the breakfast-room window and saw Oswald cross the street and walk toward the driveway where her brother parked his car near the carport. He carried a "heavy brown bag."Oswald

    Commission Exhit No. 1304

    gripped the bag in his right hand near the top. "It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It was ... more bulky toward the bottom" than toward the top. She then opened the kitchen door and saw Oswald open the right rear door of her brother's car and place the package in the back of the car. Mrs. Randle estimated that the package was approximately 28 inches long and about 8 inches wide. She thought that its color was similar to that of the bag found on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository after the assassination.
    Frazier met Oswald at the kitchen door and together they walked to the car. After entering the car, Frazier glanced over his shoulder and noticed a brown paper package on the back seat. He asked, "What's the package, Lee?" Oswald replied, "curtain rods." Frazier told the Commission "... the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that." Frazier estimated that the bag was 2 feet long "give and take a few inches," and about 5 or 6 inches wide. As they sat in the car, Frazier asked Oswald where his lunch was, and Oswald replied that he was going to buy his lunch that day.
    Frazier testified that Oswald carried no lunch bag that day. "When he rode with me, I say he always brought lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that day." Frazier parked the car in the company parking lot about 2 blocks north of the Depository Building. Oswald left the car first, picked up the brown paper bag, and proceeded toward the building ahead of Frazier. Frazier walked behind and as they crossed the railroad tracks he watched the switching of the cars. Frazier recalled that one end of the package was under Oswald's armpit and the lower part was held with his right hand so that it was carried straight and parallel to his body. When Oswald entered the rear door of the Depository Building, he was about 50 feet ahead of Frazier. It was the first time that Oswald had not walked with Frazier from the parking lot to the building entrance. When Frazier entered the building, he did not see Oswald. One employee, Jack Dougherty, believed that he saw Oswald coming to work, but he does not remember that Oswald had anything in his hands as he entered the door. No other employee has been found who saw Oswald enter that morning.
    In deciding whether Oswald carried the assassination weapon in the bag which Frazier and Mrs. Randle saw, the Commission has carefully considered the testimony of these two witnesses with regard to the length of the bag. Frazier and Mrs. Randle testified that the bag which Oswald was carrying was approximately 27 or 28 inches long, whereas the wooden stock of the rifle, which is its largest component, measured 34.8 inches. The bag found on the sixth floor was 88 inches long.(See Commission Exhibit No. 1304, p. 132.) When Frazier appeared before the Commission and was asked to demonstrate how Oswald carried the package, he said, "Like I said, I remember that I didn't look at the package very much ... but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that," and at this point Frazier placed the upper part of the package under his armpit and attempted to cup his right hand beneath the bottom of the bag. The disassembled rifle was too long to be carried in this manner. Similarly, when the butt of the rifle was placed in Frazier's hand, it extended above his shoulder to ear level. Moreover, in an interview on December 1, 1963, with agents of the FBI, Frazier had marked the point on the back seat of his car which he believed was where the bag reached when it was laid on the seat with one edge against the door. The distance between the point on the seat and the door was 27 inches.
    Mrs. Randle said, when shown the paper bag, that the bag she saw Oswald carrying "wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long." And she folded the bag to length of about 28 inches. Frazier doubted whether the bag that Oswald carried was as wide as the bag found on the sixth floor, although Mrs. Randle testified that the width was approximately the same.
    The Commission has weighed the visual recollection of Frazier and Mrs. Randle against the evidence here presented that the bag Oswald carried contained the assassination weapon and has concluded that Frazier and Randle are mistaken as to the length of the bag. Mrs. Randle saw the bag fleetingly and her first remembrance is that it was held in Oswald's right hand "and it almost touched the ground as he carried it." Frazier's view of the bag was from the rear. He continually advised that he was not paying close attention. For example, he said,
    ...I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all. Frazier could easily have been mistaken when he slated that Oswald held the bottom of the bag cupped in his hand with the upper end tucked into his armpit.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p11

    Oswald's fingerprints were found on the package, the paper and tape used to create the parcel came from the TSBD and fiber closely matching those from the blanket used by Oswald to store his rifle in the Paine garage were also found on the package.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p11

    5.
    yes no curtain rods were found(as far as we know) ,wrong his landlady was seen hanging curtains in his room the evening of jfks assassination.

    Oswald's story was bogus:
    During October and November of 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald lived in a rooming house in Dallas while his wife and children lived in Irving, at the home of Ruth Paine, approximately 15 miles from Oswald's place of work at the Texas School Book Depository. Oswald traveled between Dallas and Irving on weekends in a car driven by a neighbor of the Paines, Buell Wesley Frazier, who also worked at the Depository. Oswald generally would go to Irving on Friday afternoon and return to Dallas Monday morning. According to the testimony of Frazier, Marina Oswald, and Ruth Paine, it appears that Oswald never returned to Irving in midweek prior to November 21, 1963, except on Monday, October 21, when he visited his wife in the hospital after the birth of their second child.

    During the morning of November 21, Oswald asked Frazier whether he could ride home with him that afternoon. Frazier, surprised, asked him why he was going to Irving on Thursday night rather than Friday. Oswald replied, "I'm going home to get some curtain rods ... [to] put in an apartment." The two men left work at 4: 40 p.m. and drove to Irving. There was little conversation between them on the way home. Mrs. Linnie Mac Randle, Frazier's sister, commented to her brother about Oswald's unusual midweek return to Irving. Frazier told her that Oswald had come home to get curtain rods, It would appear, however, that obtaining curtain rods was not the purpose of Oswald's trip to Irving on November 21.
    Mrs. A. C. Johnson, his landlady, testified that Oswald's room at 1026 North Beckley Avenue had curtains and curtain rods, and that Oswald had never discussed the subject with her. In the Paines' garage, along with many other objects of a household character, there were two flat lightweight curtain rods belonging to Ruth Paine but they were still there on Friday afternoon after Oswald's arrest. Oswald never asked Mrs. Paine about the use of curtain rods, and Marina Oswald testified that Oswald did not say anything about curtain rods on the day before the assassination. No curtain rods were known to have been discovered in the Depository Building after the assassination. In deciding whether Oswald carried a rifle to work in a long paper bag on November 22, the Commission gave weight to the fact that Oswald gave a false reason for returning home on November 21, and one which provided an excuse for the carrying of a bulky package the following morning.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p9


    6.
    true ,he was seen about 11.50 am by his workmates and his supervisor bill shelly (when shelly and his workmates went down from the sixth floor for lunch he was left behind ) and he said send the elevator back up (he was next seen on the first floor by his supervisor bill shelly at around 11.55 am) whare he was seen by other witnesses around 12.00 and somewhere between 12.15 and 12.25 he was seen in the second floor canteen by carolyn arnold.

    So what? Oswald's whereabouts at 12.30 in the 6th floor window are the issue.

    7.
    the paper bag (which i assume is the parcel you mention has never been linked to oswald)

    Oswald's prints were found on the bag and fibers from the blanket in the Paine residence were also found on the bag.
    he was stationed on the sixth floor filling orders is it not reasonable to assume his prints would be on many many parcels

    These were the conclusions of the Warren Commission on this subject:
    In evaluating the significance of these fingerprint and palmprint identifications, the Commission considered the possibility that Oswald handled these cartons as part of his normal duties. Since other identifiable prints were developed on the cartons, the Commission requested that they be compared with the prints of the 12 warehouse employs who, like Oswald, might have handled the cartons. They were also compared with the prints of those law enforcement officials who might have handled the cartons. The results of this investigation are fully discussed in chapter VI, page 249. Although a person could handle a carton and not leave identifiable prints, none of these employees except Oswald left identifiable prints on the cartons. This finding, in addition to the freshness of one of the prints and the presence of Oswald's prints on two of the four cartons and the paper bag led the Commission to attach some probative value to the fingerprint and palmprint identifications in reaching the conclusion that Oswald was at the window from which the shots were fired, although the prints do not establish the exact time he was there.
    ,

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr4.htm#p16

    His latent palm print was found on the rifle barrel by Dallas PD Lieutenant Day in the crime lab.
    A latent print is the result of perspiration exuded by the sweat pores in the ridges. This perspiration is composed of water, protein or fatty materials, and sodium chloride (salt). A latent print can be developedmade visiblein several ways. Sometimes a latent print can be developed merely by the use of correct lighting. A second method is to brush the print very lightly with a powder, which adheres to its outline. Once a print is powdered it. can be photographed, lifted, or both. (In lifting, an adhesive substance, such as scotch tape, is placed over a powdered print. When the adhesive is lifted the powder clings to its surface. The adhesive is then mounted.) However, powder is usually effective only on objects which have a hard, smooth, nonabsorbent surface, such as glass, tile, and various types of highly polished metals and is usually not effective on absorbent materials, such as paper or unfinished wood or metal, which absorb perspiration so that there is nothing on the material's surface to which the powder can adhere. Prints on absorbent materials can sometimes be developed by iodine fumes, which may react with fatty or protein materials which have been absorbed into the object, or by a silver nitrate solution, which may react with sodium chloride which has been absorbed into the object.

    A dead mam does not perspire and therefore there could not have been a latent print created after his death by shadowy conspirators.
    If Day was part of a cover up then he MUST have known there was a conspiracy.
    Why would conspirators needlessly involve a Dallas policeman? That just doesn't make sense.

    8.
    no fragments found were matched to the "oswald rifle" its not possible to match fragments to a rifle or gun to the exclussion of all others, yes empty shells were found and the so called magic bullet ,wether these were the shells of bullets fired at jfk debateable as is the magic bullet.

    Wrong again.:D There is no debate on this issue.
    You don't know much about forensics do you?
    Grooves on bullets created by the lands of the spiral rifling in the barrels of guns can be match microscopically and are as unique as a fingerprint.
    Fragments of a bullet were found on the front seat of the limousine and were matched to Oswald's rifle. The rifle grooves were found on the metal jacket.
    The CE399 bullet was also similarly matched to Oswald's rifle.
    In addition to the three cartridge cases found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a nearly whole bullet was found on Governor Connally's stretcher and two bullet fragments were found in the front of the President's car. The stretcher bullet weighed 158. 6 grains, or several grains less than the average Western Cartridge Co. 6. 5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano bullet. It was slightly flattened, but otherwise unmutilated. The two bullet fragments weighed 44. 6 and 21. 0 grains, respectively. The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose area, as shown by its rounded contour and the character of the markings it bore. The lighter fragment consisted of bullet's base portion, as shown by its shape and by the presence of a cannelure. The two fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of one bullet or of two separate bullets. However, each had sufficient unmutilated area to provide the basis of an identification. Based on a comparison with test bullets fired from the C2766 rifle, the stretcher bullet and both bullet fragments were identified as having been fired from the C2766 rifle.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app10.htm#p4


    9.
    some where in the region of 50 to 60 witnesses said shots came from the so called grassy knoll area (no more or no less than those that said shots came from the book depository) as for the several witnesses who saw a man fitting oswalds description in the window please provide the witness names and either their sworn affidavits or warren commission testimony to back this up.

    Howard Brennan saw Oswald fire the shots at Kennedy from the 6th floor window. This is his sworn affidavit:
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan1.htm
    And this is his testimony:
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan.htm
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan2.htm
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan3.htm

    This is a list of the other witnesses with links to their testimony to Warren Commission:
    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm#a

    This essay is the result of an exhaustive study of each and every assassination witness analysing how many shots they heard and where the believed the shots came from.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shots.htm

    76.7% heard 3 shots.
    53.8% believe the shots came from the TSBD.
    33.7% believe the shots came from the grassy knoll.
    BUT ONLY 4.8% believe the shots came from TWO directions.
    There is overwhelming evidence that at least some shots were fired from behind the motorcade. Several witnesses saw a shooter, or at least a gun in the sixth floor sniper's nest window. The medical evidence is clear that both Kennedy and Connally were hit from behind (regardless of whether either was also hit from the front). Once we understand that at least some shots came from behind, it is hard to see how shots could also have come from the Grassy Knoll without more witnesses reporting shots from more than one direction. It begins to look like some were confused about the direction of the shots.


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭fergus o brien


    ok i can see where your coming from now as all your links seem to be from one particular site.
    1/ here is a link which shows oswalds application for a post office box account (a hiddel is not named )
    http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=141054

    2/ i think the link above concerns this issue.

    3/ "Marina Oswald herself not only gave two different versions as to where the backyard pictures were taken, she also gave different versions of the number of photos taken. At first, she testified she had taken just one photo, but later changed it to two. Finally, she said she took the photos from a different direction. In addition, Marguerite Oswald testified that soon after the assassination, Marina showed her a third photo, which she had hidden in her shoe. In that photo, Oswald was shown holding the rifle over his head with both hands. This is the same pose that can be seen in the Roscoe White photograph.

    But since Marina did not know how to use the camera, at first admitted to taking only one photo, then said two -- then changed the very direction in which she said she was taking photos -- as with so many other things Marina said under duress and fear of deportation, her testimony in this matter is as difficult to reconcile with reality as her testimony that Lee Oswald planned to shoot former Vice President Richard Nixon -- a story even the Warren Commission didn't believe. It seems Marina had to say whatever she had to. Nobody can blame her for quailing under pressure."

    4/"Mrs. Randle said the packages was about 28 inches long.
    The Warren Commission concluded that in any case both Randle and her brother Wesley were mistaken about the length of the package."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_-5L_JNF6g&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDWaOjFqgHk&feature=related
    http://www.american-buddha.com/presumeguilty6.htm#fn10

    5/"Oswald's story was bogus:"

    6/"true ,he was seen about 11.50 am by his workmates and his supervisor bill shelly (when shelly and his workmates went down from the sixth floor for lunch he was left behind ) and he said send the elevator back up (he was next seen on the first floor by his supervisor bill shelly at around 11.55 am) whare he was seen by other witnesses around 12.00 and somewhere between 12.15 and 12.25 he was seen in the second floor canteen by carolyn arnold. "
    "So what? Oswald's whereabouts at 12.30 in the 6th floor window are the issue."
    there is another man bonny ray williams who ate his lunch on the sixth floor and he said he was there till 12.20 maybe later (he never saw oswald) could that be because he was where he said he was in the second floor canteen ,a maximum of 90 seconds after the shooting officer marion baker and building manager roy truly confront oswald in the second floor canteen where he said he went for a coke.

    7/"Oswald's prints were found on the bag and fibers from the blanket in the Paine residence were also found on the bag."

    "What evidence was "presented that the bag . . . contained the assassination weapon"?
    "A [38-inch long] handmade bag of paper and tape was found in the southeast corner of the sixth floor alongside the window from which the shots were fired. It was not a standard type bag which could be obtained in a store and it was presumably made for a particular purpose," says the Report (R134). Before any evidence relevant to this bag is presented, the Report draws an important inference from its location; "The presence of the bag in this corner is cogent evidence that it was used as the container for the rifle" (R135). The Commission was unequivocal; the evidence meant only what the Commission wanted it to mean -- nothing more, nothing less. To take issue with the inference read into the evidence: the presence of that bag in that corner is "cogent evidence" only that someone placed the bag in the corner. Its location of discovery can not tell who made the bag, when it was made, or what it contained. The Commission wanted it to have contained the rifle; therefore, it must have.
    Having attached a significance to this bag (CE 142) "cogent" only for the Commission's predisposition toward Oswald's sole guilt, the Report presents what it labels "Scientific Evidence Linking Rifle and Oswald to Paper Bag." There was no difficulty in linking Oswald to the bag; his right palmprint and left index fingerprint were on it, proving that at some time, in some way, he had handled it. Again, the Commission reads an improper inference into this evidence. Because the palmprint was found at the bottom of the paper bag, says the Report, "it was consistent with the bag having contained a heavy or bulky object when [Oswald] handled it since a light object is usually held by the fingers" (R135). Not mentioned is the fact that, as Oswald walked to Frazier's home, he grasped his package at the top, allowing it to hang freely, almost touching the ground. According to the Commission's analysis of how people hold packages, it would seem unlikely that Oswald's bag contained anything "heavy or bulky." Nor is there any proof that Oswald was holding CE 142 when he left prints on it. Had it been lying on a hard, flat surface, Oswald could have leaned against or on it and left prints.".

    8/there is no argument that a palm print was found on the rifle (but only after oswalds death) ill come back to the bullets and shells and fragments as time is againts me .

    9/http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan1.htm
    ill come back to mr brennan also but here are a few witness who saw something different to what mr brennan saw.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ZYa_nK-Gc&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y9_d9L6NOU&feature=related



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭silkworm53


    ok i can see where your coming from now as all your links seem to be from one particular site.
    1/ here is a link which shows oswalds application for a post office box account (a hiddel is not named )
    http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=141054

    All my textual quotes are linked to a site that has the entire text of the Warren Report. Maybe you should try reading it? You made an entire series of claims that I debunked refering directly to the Report.

    The PO box was under the name A. Hidell as has been already explained in my previous post. End of.
    2/ i think the link above concerns this issue.

    What link? Be specific please.
    3/ "Marina Oswald herself not only gave two different versions as to where the backyard pictures were taken, she also gave different versions of the number of photos taken. At first, she testified she had taken just one photo, but later changed it to two. Finally, she said she took the photos from a different direction. In addition, Marguerite Oswald testified that soon after the assassination, Marina showed her a third photo, which she had hidden in her shoe. In that photo, Oswald was shown holding the rifle over his head with both hands. This is the same pose that can be seen in the Roscoe White photograph.

    But since Marina did not know how to use the camera, at first admitted to taking only one photo, then said two -- then changed the very direction in which she said she was taking photos -- as with so many other things Marina said under duress and fear of deportation, her testimony in this matter is as difficult to reconcile with reality as her testimony that Lee Oswald planned to shoot former Vice President Richard Nixon -- a story even the Warren Commission didn't believe. It seems Marina had to say whatever she had to. ? Nobody can blame her for quailing under pressure."

    Marina took the photos. Common sense would tell anybody that. Who else took the photos? The Fairy Godmother? End of.
    4/"Mrs. Randle said the packages was about 28 inches long.
    The Warren Commission concluded that in any case both Randle and her brother Wesley were mistaken about the length of the package."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_-5L_JNF6g&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDWaOjFqgHk&feature=related
    http://www.american-buddha.com/presumeguilty6.htm#fn10

    I posted a photo of the dissembled rifle next to the brown paper package recovered from the TSBD sniper nest. Why did you ignore it?

    Rifle-Bag-Blanket.jpg

    It clearly shows that the rifle could indeed have been transported to the TSBD in Oswald's parcel.
    Logic tells you that was why Oswald went to the Paine household, why fibers of the blanket were found on the parcel and why Oswald walked ahead of Frazier and disappeared upstairs before Frazier reached the TSBD that morning.

    5/"Oswald's story was bogus:"

    I already showed you why his story was bogus.
    6/"true ,he was seen about 11.50 am by his workmates and his supervisor bill shelly (when shelly and his workmates went down from the sixth floor for lunch he was left behind ) and he said send the elevator back up (he was next seen on the first floor by his supervisor bill shelly at around 11.55 am) whare he was seen by other witnesses around 12.00 and somewhere between 12.15 and 12.25 he was seen in the second floor canteen by carolyn arnold. "
    "So what? Oswald's whereabouts at 12.30 in the 6th floor window are the issue."
    there is another man bonny ray williams who ate his lunch on the sixth floor and he said he was there till 12.20 maybe later (he never saw oswald) could that be because he was where he said he was in the second floor canteen ,a maximum of 90 seconds after the shooting officer marion baker and building manager roy truly confront oswald in the second floor canteen where he said he went for a coke.

    Oswald built a wall of boxes around the 6th floor south east corner window which meant he would have been invisible to anybody on the 6th floor.
    Oswald probably hid there until Williams went away.

    Nobody else except Oswald was on the 6th floor when the motorcade came by at twelve-thirty.
    Oswald had ample time to arrive in the lunch room a minimum of 90 secs after the shooting to be confronted by Officer Baker.
    7/"Oswald's prints were found on the bag and fibers from the blanket in the Paine residence were also found on the bag."

    "What evidence was "presented that the bag . . . contained the assassination weapon"?
    "A [38-inch long] handmade bag of paper and tape was found in the southeast corner of the sixth floor alongside the window from which the shots were fired. It was not a standard type bag which could be obtained in a store and it was presumably made for a particular purpose," says the Report (R134). Before any evidence relevant to this bag is presented, the Report draws an important inference from its location; "The presence of the bag in this corner is cogent evidence that it was used as the container for the rifle" (R135). The Commission was unequivocal; the evidence meant only what the Commission wanted it to mean -- nothing more, nothing less. To take issue with the inference read into the evidence: the presence of that bag in that corner is "cogent evidence" only that someone placed the bag in the corner. Its location of discovery can not tell who made the bag, when it was made, or what it contained. The Commission wanted it to have contained the rifle; therefore, it must have.
    Having attached a significance to this bag (CE 142) "cogent" only for the Commission's predisposition toward Oswald's sole guilt, the Report presents what it labels "Scientific Evidence Linking Rifle and Oswald to Paper Bag." There was no difficulty in linking Oswald to the bag; his right palmprint and left index fingerprint were on it, proving that at some time, in some way, he had handled it. Again, the Commission reads an improper inference into this evidence. Because the palmprint was found at the bottom of the paper bag, says the Report, "it was consistent with the bag having contained a heavy or bulky object when [Oswald] handled it since a light object is usually held by the fingers" (R135). Not mentioned is the fact that, as Oswald walked to Frazier's home, he grasped his package at the top, allowing it to hang freely, almost touching the ground. According to the Commission's analysis of how people hold packages, it would seem unlikely that Oswald's bag contained anything "heavy or bulky." Nor is there any proof that Oswald was holding CE 142 when he left prints on it. Had it been lying on a hard, flat surface, Oswald could have leaned against or on it and left prints.".

    What other reason would Oswald's prints and the fibers of the blanket from the Paine garage be found on the paper bag found near the sniper nest on the 6th floor? His prints were also found on the boxes stacked around the nest and his palm print and fibres of his work shirt were found on the rifle.

    The only logical explanation is that Oswald took the rifle from the Paine garage in the paper bag and he was there on the 6th floor, built the sniper nest with the book crates, lay in wait for the motorcade and shot the President.

    Any other explanation is frankly ridiculous.

    8/there is no argument that a palm print was found on the rifle (but only after oswalds death) ill come back to the bullets and shells and fragments as time is againts me .

    Save yourself the trouble and just admit that the physical evidence proves that Oswald's rifle fired the shots that killed Kennedy and wounded Connally. This was clearly established by the forensic investigation of the bullets compared to the rifle.
    9/http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan1.htm
    ill come back to mr brennan also but here are a few witness who saw something different to what mr brennan saw.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ZYa_nK-Gc&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y9_d9L6NOU&feature=related

    The only logical explanation for what Brennan saw when you include all the other evidence that I have already gone over is that Lee Harvey Oswald was the man firing the shots from the 6th floor window.
    The overwhelming majority of the witnesses testimony matches the physical evidence.
    The physical evidence however supersedes the witnesses testimony.
    The physical evidence shows that two bullets struck Kennedy in the back of the neck and the back of the head and that the shots came from above and behind from the direction of the 6th floor window.
    The inescapable conclusion is that Oswald must have brought the rifle to work, Oswald must have fired the rifle and that 3 shots were fired by Oswald, two of whom wounded the President, the final one fatally.


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