Saorview Content Speculation

watty

Freesat uses MHEG5 to display appropriate message on time shared channels when you select the one "off the air".

It's likely Saorview will be the same, so non-MHEG5 equipement will behave like generic FTA satellite on Freesat, both EPG positions will have same content. On MHEG5 sets you will have illusion of "really" two channels.

watty

There is little to stop TV3 closing their analogue. It gives them little more than payTV does as less than 80% is covered in reality. Over 80% of the not covered have PayTV TV3
About 80% of the analogue covered have payTV TV3.

So about 10% loss of viewers I think if no-one had digital. Once enough are watching digital to make that a 5% loss they will exit analogue. Or at what ever point the loss in advertiser revenue is less than cost of analogue transmission.

Johnboy1951

Elmo wrote: »

This is a worrying part of the response. While TV3 where happy to provide TV3 and 3e for free on the "trial" phase of the MPEG 4 DTT project, commercially there is nothing stopping them from removing the channels from Saorview should they have to pay. While they may have an interest in national broadcasting (even though that is not the case on analogue) they also understand that they don't need Terrestrial for audience share. IMO TV3 will continue to be placed for free on Saorview until ASO.

How the audience is accessing Irish TV channels is very fluid at the moment ....... and how it eventually pans out is not quite certain.
They will have to reach their audience in some manner, and I would expect that they will join Saorview, at minimum, for its first year of transmission, after ASO, and then make a commercial decision on whether it is worth the cost for their market penetration or not.
After that first year they may even be in a better position to renegotiate the charges.

regards.

Sam Russell

I think if UTV are offered the spot vacated by TV3, then TV3 will not vacate the spot. If UTV took up the broadcast on Saorview,TV3 (assuming they only broadcast on paytv, would suffer market share, particularly if UTV began to make programmes for the new audience, like those currently made by TV3. They would probably make a better fist of them as well. I]That's not saying much, it would take real skill to make worse programmes[/I.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Freesat uses MHEG5 to display appropriate message on time shared channels when you select the one "off the air".

It's likely Saorview will be the same, so non-MHEG5 equipement will behave like generic FTA satellite on Freesat, both EPG positions will have same content. On MHEG5 sets you will have illusion of "really" two channels.

I suspected that was the case, hence the reason for my question re MHEG-5.

The two test services on epg#7 & 8 (Mux 1 Mullaghanish) are behaving differently from a FTA receiver, blank screen when the other is displaying test card and audio (on non-MHEG-5 TV). We'll know for sure I guess when the channels launch.

The Cush

Elmo wrote: »

IMO RTÉNL are charging far too much for DTT channels. This is because they perceive it to be only one MUX and 6 SD channels, 1 HD channel and 10 radio stations. TV3 could pay up to €1.5 for both TV3 and 3e. (Same price the currently have for analogue).

The commercial mux has to be launch, a separate RTÉ NL will take the same opinion.

Prices below (2012)

Radio from 60000 to 92000
SD TV from 748000

Costs reduce as more channels are added to the service and as channels move from SD to HD.

Have you seen the tarriffs for DTT? The only one in the public domain is from early 2008 for 6 muxes from 44 sites.

RTÉNL only recently published the 2011 tarriffs for analogue TV and radio. Where do the 2012 figures come from?

I would have thought as channels move to HD costs would increase, less services per multiplex and 3 times the capacity required.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Have you seen the tarriffs for DTT? The only one in the public domain is from early 2008 for 6 muxes from 44 sites.

RTÉNL only recently published the 2011 tarriffs for analogue TV and radio. Where do the 2012 figures come from?

I would have thought as channels move to HD costs would increase, less services per multiplex and 3 times the capacity required.

I think the costs being talked about being reduced are those of RTE NL, not the broadcaster. For example, adding a new channel to the present line-up would cause the second mux to be fired up, doubling the costs. After that, any additions increases the income at the same cost. Therefore the cost per (used) megabit reduces as channels are added.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the costs being talked about being reduced are those of RTE NL, not the broadcaster. For example, adding a new channel to the present line-up would cause the second mux to be fired up, doubling the costs. After that, any additions increases the income at the same cost. Therefore the cost per (used) megabit reduces as channels are added.

I see you point. The problem is we haven't seen an up to date DTT tarriff model for Saorview. Quoting figures for 2012 (without a source) is premature.

Sam Russell

I beleive it costs about €3m a year for an analogue channel and about the same for a mux. A mux can tranmit 10 SD channels, say, which would give a figure of €300K per SD or €900k per HD channel. There are fewer transmitters for DTT (51) but the equipment is more expensive. If RTE NL fills two of the muxes, that 20 SD channel eqivalents, they are doing OK, but that would mean RTE1 RTE2 TV3 and TG4 are all in HD, and all the existing channels are in SD, plus OTV and The Irish Film Boards channel (also in HD). I think that comes to about 20 channels. But I doubt the broadcasters would pay out.

The Cush

Attached are the most recent schedule of tarriffs for Analogue TV and radio (May2011) and DTT (Feb2008)

Apogee

watty wrote: »

Freesat uses MHEG5 to display appropriate message on time shared channels when you select the one "off the air".

It's likely Saorview will be the same, so non-MHEG5 equipement will behave like generic FTA satellite on Freesat, both EPG positions will have same content. On MHEG5 sets you will have illusion of "really" two channels.

But the Test channels have different Video and Audio PIDs (same as "shared" channels on Freesat), so will appear as two different channels with different content regardless if the receiver has MHEG-5 or not. There is no need for MHEG-5 to display any message.

Apogee

The Cush wrote: »

Is it a separate video stream or generated by the receiver e.g. MHEG-5?

They are two separate video streams which share the same bandwidth in different time slots.

The Cush

Apogee wrote: »

But the Test channels have different Video and Audio PIDs (same as "shared" channels on Freesat), so will appear as two different channels with different content regardless if the receiver has MHEG-5 or not. There is no need for MHEG-5 to display any message.

Are the VPIDs for the two test channels different?

Someone posted previously, that when the RTÉ2 Temp channel ceased and the two test services appeared, that the two test services were pointing to the same video stream with different audio - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71810753#post71810753.

Can anyone post the stream data for the two test services (epg 7 & 8) pre and post 19:00 in the evening?

Edit: The test services from Mullaghanish on Mux 1 (new config) and 2 (old config) are different, it would be interesting to look at both.

Apogee

The Cush wrote: »

Are the VPIDs for the two test channels different?

1108d, 1107d

The Cush

Apogee wrote: »

1108d, 1107d

Thanks for that.

Previously, as I mentioned above, the VPID for service ID 1108 was pointing at VPID 1107 (test card). Are there now two VPIDs 1107 & 1108?

If this is the case on Mullaghanish Mux 1, is Mux 2 running as previous - service ID 1108 pointing to VPID 1107? A look at the stream data would clarify the situation.

Souriau

This was taken at 02.41, I will rescan tomorrow when channel 7 is onair
****************************

Program Number: 7/1107
PCR on PID 0 (0x0000)
PMT Version: 0
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 7
****************************

Program Number: 8/1108
PCR on PID 8190 (0x1ffe)
PMT Version: 6
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 8
Stream Type: 0x1b H.264 Video
Elementary Stream PID 1108 (0x0454)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1228 (0x04cc)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1208 (0x04b8)

The Cush

Apogee wrote: »

But the Test channels have different Video and Audio PIDs (same as "shared" channels on Freesat), so will appear as two different channels with different content regardless if the receiver has MHEG-5 or not. There is no need for MHEG-5 to display any message.

Two VPIDs would explain the blank screens on the test services at their respective times pre and post 19:00.

But on the BBC3/4 and CBBC/CBebbies channels it doesn't appear to work this way. On my FTA sat receiver the BBC3/4 channels display the childrens channels pre 19:00 and the childrens channels display BBC3/4 post 19:00 i.e. the same APIDs and VPIDs with different service IDs. But on a Freesat receiver you get a channel not available or similar message on BBC3 for example pre 19:00, not the CBBC channel, how do they do this on a freesat receiver different to a FTA receiver?

|SID| VPID|APID
BBC3 |6319|5200 |5201
CBBC|6317|5200|5201
|||
BBC4|6416|5600|5601
CBeebies|6418|5600|5601

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

This was taken at 02.41, I will rescan tomorrow when channel 7 is onair
****************************

Program Number: 7/1107
PCR on PID 0 (0x0000)
PMT Version: 0
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 7
****************************

Program Number: 8/1108
PCR on PID 8190 (0x1ffe)
PMT Version: 6
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 8
Stream Type: 0x1b H.264 Video
Elementary Stream PID 1108 (0x0454)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1228 (0x04cc)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1208 (0x04b8)

Thanks for the that Souriau. Looking forward to the pre 19:00 info.

We have Mux 2 running down here from Mullaghanish in what appears to be the old configuration for the two test services i.e. both test cards on with different audio (SID 1108 pointing to VPID 1107?). Not sure if you have a similar Mux 2 available at your location that you can check?

watty

The Cush wrote: »

But on the BBC3/4 and CBBC/CBebbies channels it doesn't appear to work this way. On my FTA sat receiver the BBC3/4 channels display the childrens channels pre 19:00 and the childrens channels display BBC3/4 post 19:00 i.e. the same APIDs and VPIDs with different service IDs. But on a Freesat receiver you get a channel not available or similar message on BBC3 for example pre 19:00, not the CBBC channel, how do they do this on a freesat receiver different to a FTA receiver?

It's established by people testing MHEG5 engine that Freesat uses MHEG5 to generate the screen. A non-Freesat receiver with no MHEG5 will actually see the Cbbc and Cbeebies on BBC3 and BBC4 "channels" during daytime.

Souriau

Souriau wrote: »

This was taken at 02.41, I will rescan tomorrow when channel 7 is onair
****************************

Program Number: 7/1107
PCR on PID 0 (0x0000)
PMT Version: 0
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 7
****************************

Program Number: 8/1108
PCR on PID 8190 (0x1ffe)
PMT Version: 6
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 8
Stream Type: 0x1b H.264 Video
Elementary Stream PID 1108 (0x0454)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1228 (0x04cc)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1208 (0x04b8)

This was taken at 11.00

****************************
Program Number: 7/1107
PCR on PID 8190 (0x1ffe)
PMT Version: 6
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 7
Stream Type: 0x1b H.264 Video
Elementary Stream PID 1107 (0x0453)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1228 (0x04cc)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1207 (0x04b7)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1229 (0x04cd)


****************************
Program Number: 8/1108
PCR on PID 0 (0x0000)
PMT Version: 0
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 8

Souriau

The Cush wrote: »

Thanks for the that Souriau. Looking forward to the pre 19:00 info.

We have Mux 2 running down here from Mullaghanish in what appears to be the old configuration for the two test services i.e. both test cards on with different audio (SID 1108 pointing to VPID 1107?). Not sure if you have a similar Mux 2 available at your location that you can check?

I just only received CH E47 Mux 1 only, I done a scan but no other Mux available to me since I am so far from the transmitter.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

It's established by people testing MHEG5 engine that Freesat uses MHEG5 to generate the screen. A non-Freesat receiver with no MHEG5 will actually see the Cbbc and Cbeebies on BBC3 and BBC4 "channels" during daytime.

Thanks for that again watty.

I checked with a Freesat receiver earlier today when BBC3/4 were off air, when BBC3 or 4 were selected the respective childrens channels with the same APID/VPID momentarily appeared then went black screen with "no service" in the info bar and vice versa this evening with CBBC/CBebbies.

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

This was taken at 11.00

****************************
Program Number: 7/1107
PCR on PID 8190 (0x1ffe)
PMT Version: 6
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 7
Stream Type: 0x1b H.264 Video
Elementary Stream PID 1107 (0x0453)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1228 (0x04cc)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1207 (0x04b7)
Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1229 (0x04cd)


****************************
Program Number: 8/1108
PCR on PID 0 (0x0000)
PMT Version: 0
Service name: Test Service
Logical channel number: 8

Thanks again for posting the information. Confirms what Apogee posted - two separate video streams (VPIDs) for the two services sharing the same bandwidth when the other is off-air. Black screen for the off-air channel.

On my 3 year old Sony the info bar momentarily displays "Programmes start at 07:00 (or 19:00)" and then changes to "Selected programme is not available" for the off-air channel, on other more recent non-Saorview certified MPEG-4 TVs the info bar displays "Programmes start at 07:00 (or 19:00)" uninterrupted for the off-air channel - some small bug in the older TV. Not a problem though.

Apogee

The Cush wrote: »

But on the BBC3/4 and CBBC/CBebbies channels it doesn't appear to work this way. On my FTA sat receiver the BBC3/4 channels display the childrens channels pre 19:00 and the childrens channels display BBC3/4 post 19:00 i.e. the same APIDs and VPIDs with different service IDs. But on a Freesat receiver you get a channel not available or similar message on BBC3 for example pre 19:00, not the CBBC channel, how do they do this on a freesat receiver different to a FTA receiver?

Mea culpa, I got the Freesat setup wrong - the two channels do indeed share the one video stream and must be using MHEG-5 to blank off the other (I usually delete CBeebies). I don't understand why they use this approach, other than it being a hangover to accommodate Sky. The use of separate VPIDs makes way more sense from a purely DVB perspective.

Souriau

from part time channels, 7 & 8, the only things is shared is the audio

Stream Type: 0x04 MPEG-2 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 1228 (0x04cc)

what is 0x1b?

I searched and all I get is this
0x01 MPEG-2 SD/HD
0x02 Digital Radio MEPG-1
0x03 Digital Audio MPEG-1
0x04 Digital Audio MPEG-2
0x0A Digital Radio AAC
0x16 MPEG-4 H.264 SD
0x19 MEPG-4 H.264 HD
0x20 MEPG-4 H.264 + AAC

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

from part time channels, 7 & 8, the only things is shared is the audio

The shared APID 1228 is either the LyricFM (Eng2/0) or the Tone (NAR2/0) MPEG 2 audio stream. epg#7 also carries RnaG.

Souriau wrote: »

what is 0x1b?

Appears to be for time shifted services like RTÉ1+1 and RTÉjr.

The ETSI standard describes it as the service type for "advanced codec HD NVOD reference service".

6.2.25 Near Video On Demand (NVOD) reference descriptor

This descriptor, in conjunction with the time shifted service and time shifted event descriptors, provides a mechanism
for efficiently describing a number of services which carry the same sequence of events, but with the start times offset
from one another. Such a group of time-shifted services is referred to as Near Video On Demand, since a user can at
any time access near to the start of an event by selecting the appropriate service of the group.

The NVOD reference descriptor (see table 70) gives a list of the services which together form a NVOD service. Each
service is also described in the appropriate SDT sub_table by a time shifted service descriptor, see clause 6.2.43. The
time shifted service descriptor associates a time shifted service with a reference_service_id. The reference_service_id is
the label under which a full description of the NVOD service is given, but the reference_service_id does not itself
correspond to any program_number in the program_map_section.

The time shifted event descriptor is used in the event information for each time shifted service. Instead of duplicating
the full information for each event, the time shifted event descriptor points to a reference_event_id in the reference
service. The full event information is provided in the event information for the reference service.

The services which make up an NVOD service need not all be carried in the same TS. However, a reference service
shall be described in the SI in each TS which carries any services of the NVOD service.

The Cush

@Souriau

How are the BBC3/4 and CBBC/CBebbies channels carried within the Freeview DTT muxes?

Different PIDs, VPIDs etc.? Blank screen when the other is on-air or on-screen graphic/message or info bar message?

Souriau

The Cush wrote: »

@Souriau

How are the BBC3/4 and CBBC/CBebbies channels carried within the Freeview DTT muxes?

Different PIDs, VPIDs etc.? Blank screen when the other is on-air or on-screen graphic/message or info bar message?

Program Number: 7/4349
PCR on PID 241 (0x00f1)
PMT Version: 8
Service name: BBC THREE
Logical channel number: 7
Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video
Elementary Stream PID 241 (0x00f1)
Stream Type: 0x03 MPEG-1 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 242 (0x00f2)
Stream Type: 0x03 MPEG-1 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 246 (0x00f6)
Stream Type: 0x06 ISO/IEC 13818-1 PES packets containing private data
Elementary Stream PID 245 (0x00f5)
Stream Type: 0x05 ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Elementary Stream PID 249 (0x00f9)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 620 (0x026c)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 621 (0x026d)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 650 (0x028a)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 651 (0x028b)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 652 (0x028c)

*********************************
Program Number: 70/4669
PCR on PID 8191 (0x1fff)
PMT Version: 8
Service name: CBBC Channel
Logical channel number: 70
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 622 (0x026e)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 623 (0x026f)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 650 (0x028a)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 651 (0x028b)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 652 (0x028c)

*********************************
Program Number: 16832
PCR on PID 201 (0x00c9)
PMT Version: 7
Service name: BBC FOUR
Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video
Elementary Stream PID 201 (0x00c9)
Stream Type: 0x03 MPEG-1 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 401 (0x0191)
Stream Type: 0x03 MPEG-1 Audio
Elementary Stream PID 402 (0x0192)
Stream Type: 0x06 ISO/IEC 13818-1 PES packets containing private data
Elementary Stream PID 601 (0x0259)
Stream Type: 0x05 ISO/IEC 13818-1 private_sections
Elementary Stream PID 209 (0x00d1)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 306 (0x0132)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 307 (0x0133)
Stream Type: 0x0d ISO/IEC 13818-6 type D
Elementary Stream PID 310 (0x0136)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 301 (0x012d)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 302 (0x012e)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 303 (0x012f)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 304 (0x0130)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 305 (0x0131)

*********************************
Program Number: 71/16960
PCR on PID 8191 (0x1fff)
PMT Version: 9
Service name: CBeebies
Logical channel number: 71
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 308 (0x0134)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 309 (0x0135)
Stream Type: 0x0d ISO/IEC 13818-6 type D
Elementary Stream PID 311 (0x0137)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 301 (0x012d)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 302 (0x012e)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 303 (0x012f)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 304 (0x0130)
Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 305 (0x0131)

Souriau

The Cush wrote: »

@Souriau

How are the BBC3/4 and CBBC/CBebbies channels carried within the Freeview DTT muxes?

Different PIDs, VPIDs etc.? Blank screen when the other is on-air or on-screen graphic/message or info bar message?

here are four snapshot of the offair channels

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

here are four snapshot of the offair channels

Is that an MHEG-5 onscreen message?

I wonder if we'll have similar for RTÉjr/RTÉ1+1?