M1 New Section of D3 (three lanes) at Swords

sk8board

have been driving it NB all week, and again just this afternoon ... and I . still. just . don't . get it ... it seems to be the most rediculous and dangerous solution

couple of (more!) things:

1. even the most seasoned driver isn't going to scream up the outside until the last second, because theres already a lot of traffic in the middle lane, so its just far too dangerous (unless you're a tool, of course)

2. all the drivers content to drive in the inside lane all the way from the tunnel, and stay there when it becomes the middle lane on the M1 NB, suddenly it becomes the outside lane after swords, and they all need to change lane, while some drivers won't, and some won't even realise!

(in effect, coming NB from the tunnel you go across from lane 1 to 3 without ever changing lane)

Bluetonic

sk8board wrote: »

(in effect, coming NB from the tunnel you go across from lane 1 to 3 without ever changing lane)

You only even go from lane one to lane two.

You're never in lane three at any stage.

spacetweek

chinchin wrote: »

celticbest posted a diagram of what they actually built, essentially the 3 lanes run past the swords exit and then almost immediately lane 3 (the right lane) merges into lane 2 (the middle lane).

Maybe they're planning on extending the 6-laning further quite soon?

amacachi

spacetweek wrote: »

Maybe they're planning on extending the 6-laning further quite soon?

It still makes no sense to me to have it end after the junction though. Supposing there's equal traffic in all three lanes and 20% of the traffic in lane 1 take the exit then suddenly the 2 lanes with the most traffic have to merge. It's very stupid.

ongarboy

Yes, I drove NB last night for the first time with the new 3rd lane in place and found the merger set up to be a bit dangerous. Even at 10pm on a Sunday night, traffic had built up where the 3 lanes become 2 as all the new outer lane cars had to slow down to merge into the middle lane creating congestion for all. I can only imagine what it's like at evening rush hour.

I feel this section of the route is just too busy to have this type of "end of lane" set up. For other M-ways where 3 lanes become 2, it's usually the inner slower lane that is terminated by safely merging to become a well sign posted in advance exit lane for a considerable distance (eg Naas DC southbound) and is generally seamless to motorists who are staying on the primary M-way route.

cargo

As somebody else has pointed out above perhaps this merge is still temporary as there are works on-going in the HS and preventing the published layout been implemented safely?

Also the advance merge warning signs are still orange and not motorway blue with afaik indicates they are temporary roadworks signs (can always be turned permanent later I know but still not permanent yet)

Has anyone heard anything from Fingals Roads dept or the contractor?

Doesn't help that there's a lot of di**heads on the road out there either. Was behind a driver the other night around 11pm not too busy and after a while they realised there was another lane outside of the middle lane they were traveling along in (noone inside them) so moved over to lane 3 just to have to move back again a few metres up the road!! Despite the fact that they had passed several of the warning signs

ongarboy

cargo wrote: »

As somebody else has pointed out above perhaps this merge is still temporary as there are works on-going in the HS and preventing the published layout been implemented safely?

Also the advance merge warning signs are still orange and not motorway blue with afaik indicates they are temporary roadworks signs (can always be turned permanent later I know but still not permanent yet)

Has anyone heard anything from Fingals Roads dept or the contractor?

I checked for that too but the end of lane sign I saw was almost certainly gold rather than typical construction orange. I'm not sure what gold/yellow signifies if blue is M-way permanent and orange is temporary construction

etchyed

Has anyone written to the NRA about the discrepancy between the junction layout in the plans and what's actually been lined on the ground?

I've been guilty of not taking the initiative myself in the past and I admit I'm continuing my hypocrisy now by not writing personally but I know that there are several members on this board who are in correspondence with the NRA on matters like this on a relatively regular basis.

Perhaps they (the NRA) could explain why this layout has been chosen. They have in the past provided detailed explanations about the thinking behind the lane layout on the M50/M1 junction and the planning/RSA restrictions they were subject to while desiging it.

sdanseo

Came out NB today for the first time with the new layout.

With heavier traffic, and if the speed limit was 100 or 120 - dear GOD someone will be crushed.

This needs changing immediately. Emailing the NRA...amacachi if you havent already mailed them can I borrow your image to send to them? It illustrates the idea perfectly.

As a slight aside - it's open a wet week and already the middle lane hoggers are out in force. Gardaí should be issuing FPN's for this. It's infuriatiing because being stuck beind a lane hogger means you have to sit in Lane 1 crawling with nothing ahead of you, undertake, or break the law...if you use Lane 1 you have to go slower, if you use lane 3 you miss your exit.

amacachi

sdonn wrote: »

Came out NB today for the first time with the new layout.

With heavier traffic, and if the speed limit was 100 or 120 - dear GOD someone will be crushed.

This needs changing immediately. Emailing the NRA...amacachi if you havent already mailed them can I borrow your image to send to them? It illustrates the idea perfectly.

As a slight aside - it's open a wet week and already the middle lane hoggers are out in force. Gardaí should be issuing FPN's for this. It's infuriatiing because being stuck beind a lane hogger means you have to sit in Lane 1 crawling with nothing ahead of you, undertake, or break the law...if you use Lane 1 you have to go slower, if you use lane 3 you miss your exit.

That was celticbest's pic, I just quoted it. I think a point on the design (rather than the bad driving one expects in this country) I made is important to make, that because traffic will be leaving from the left lane it means that the two busier lanes are the ones that have to merge.

celticbest

I just sent on the following mail to all contacts listed on the NRA website,



It will be interesting to see if anyone bothers to replies.

celticbest

Just received the following very informative reply,

It contains both good and bad news.

The bad news being in the short term we will have to live with the current layout.

The good news is that work on extending the Three lanes to Junction 4 Lissenhall were the lane drop/ take up will tie into the junction are due to begin at some stage this year !!



I'm truly glad I sent my mail this morning as I was not expecting news that the upgrade would continue out to Junction 4 Lissenhall.

F1 fanatic

Good job Celticbest. Nice to see that the third lane as far as Lissenhall is being looked into.

Still find it hard to believe the mentality of these planners. They would put a dangerous layout like this on the M1 Northbound because, in they're words,

"if there were a lane drop at Drinan interchange there was a concern that we would have a repeat of what was happening at the Airport exit i.e. traffic waiting until the last minute until it got into the M1 Northbound lane."

I dont know about anyone else, but if I had a choice, I would rather have slower traffic waiting until the last minute and merging from lane 1 instead of faster traffic making a last minute dive accross the front of my car from lane 3.

ongarboy

F1 fanatic wrote: »

Good job Celticbest. Nice to see that the third lane as far as Lissenhall is being looked into.

Still find it hard to believe the mentality of these planners. They would put a dangerous layout like this on the M1 Northbound because, in they're words,

"if there were a lane drop at Drinan interchange there was a concern that we would have a repeat of what was happening at the Airport exit i.e. traffic waiting until the last minute until it got into the M1 Northbound lane."

I dont know about anyone else, but if I had a choice, I would rather have slower traffic waiting until the last minute and merging from lane 1 instead of faster traffic making a last minute dive accross the front of my car from lane 3.

I suppose the key point also from the NRA email is that this is technically a 60kph zone (which is clearly marked) as it's a construction work set up and all motorists observing this limit would not have "last minute" or "slam the breaks" type scenarios that we've expressed concern about. The problem in reality is that many motorists who see a 3 lane DC ahead of them (with or without cones/construction parephenalia) feels it gives them licence to do 120+kph so the danger remains. How do you police or prevent lunatic driving??

celticbest

F1 fanatic wrote: »

I dont know about anyone else, but if I had a choice, I would rather have slower traffic waiting until the last minute and merging from lane 1 instead of faster traffic making a last minute dive accross the front of my car from lane 3.

With the current layout I find myself sticking to Lane 1 once I join the M1 from the M50, I find it to be just as fast moving overall as Lanes 2 & 3 especially after Junction 3 Drynam were you normally fly by the traffic Merge of Lanes 2 & 3. It is also IMHO a hell of a lot safer as you are less likely to have a car swerving in front of you.

F1 fanatic

The main objective is to protect people from any serious injury in an accident at this junction.

Although I do not condone reckless driving or speeding.
I believe this needs to be made safer.

In my opinion It would take less time to change the junction layout than to change driver behaviour.

amacachi

Just a question about when they're extending out as far as Lissenhall. On the bridge just south of the junction there's room for an extra lane but it's covered in concrete. Is there any logical reason why they didn't tarmac and seperate that area when the road was first being built which would have meant maybe a night or two of work to convert to three lanes rather than how long it will now take? The lack of a hard shoulder on the bridge also has me worried as to how constricted the traffic will be during such works.

oharach

F1 fanatic wrote: »

"if there were a lane drop at Drinan interchange there was a concern that we would have a repeat of what was happening at the Airport exit i.e. traffic waiting until the last minute until it got into the M1 Northbound lane."

But yet this is exactly what they're going to do at the upgraded J4! How is that any different?...

runway16

I think we are all being way too critical of the NRA in this case.

The current set up at J3 is a perfectly normal way of reducing lanes in most countries.

Think about it: the Lane drop / Lane gain set up such as on the N7 at Naas is probably one of the prime reasons why Irish drivers have got into the stupid "middle lane hogging" habit on 3 and 4 lane stretches of motorway. The thinking seems to be that lane 1 is only for traffic joining or leaving the motorway and is not be used for cruising.

I feel that lane drop / gain should never be used for this reason.

The solution to the Drynam interchange issue is to sign the loss of a lane early, install the overhead gantry lane open / lane closed indicators (the green arrow, red X, or move left / right indicators as you see at the entrance to tunnels) for which gantries have already been put in place, so that people merge early.

This works everywhere else - its by far the more correct way than the lane drop / gain.

celticbest

runway16 wrote: »

This works everywhere else - its by far the more correct way than the lane drop / gain.

The problem is that this is probably the most dangerous as people travel at faster speeds in Lane 3 than Lane 2 & Lane 2 than Lane 1.

The safest option is to pick up & drop lanes which would be the slowest moving, this is normal practice of how most motorways pick up or drop off lanes.

runway16

Its the norm in this country - but not necessarily elsewhere.

And you will probably find that in this country, traffic in lane 1 actually moves fastest due to above mentioned lane hogging! ;-)

dcr22B

runway16 wrote: »

And you will probably find that in this country, traffic in lane 1 actually moves fastest due to above mentioned lane hogging! ;-)

Ain't that the truth!

My brother and myself were driving back separately from Cork one day and we agreed beforehand to have a "race" (all within legal limits) from Johnstown to Newlands Cross. I had to use Lane 1 and only overtake in Lane 2 whereas he could only use Lane 3 and not undertake at all. He hadn't reached the Green Isle by the time I CB'd in from Newlands Cross!

runway16

Similar here mate. I am so sick and tired of trying to obey the rules that I just stay in Lane 1 now, because it means less stupid needless changes of lane brought on by these clowns.

You can already see the behaviour on the new 3 lane M1 Stretch.

What really sickens me, is that last week, the entire apparatus of the state was wheeled out to stop people dodging the M50 toll by tailgating. The gardai launched an operation to catch people, and RTE were rolled out to put an item about it on the 6 o'clock news to let everyone know it wouldnt be tolerated.

Yet this dangerous practice is allowed to carry on with ZERO effort from anyone in authority, be it NRA, Gardai or whoever to stop it.

I have seen the traffic corps on the M50 allowing this to happen, seeing vehicles hogging the middle and overtaking lanes while Lane 1 is empty. NOTHING done.

celticbest

I have posted about lane hoggers in others threads and have been told that if I undertake someone in a lane to my right even if I'm travelling @ or under the speed limit I'm still breaking the law..........

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66208898 - My original post in thread re. ROTR : Post #8 & from around Post # 129 on about how ROTR apply.

amacachi

J3 isn't all that busy though. The problem is that it's so close to a junction meaning that lanes 2 and 3 will be the busiest 2 lanes yet they're the two that have to merge.

sdanseo

runway16 wrote: »

I think we are all being way too critical of the NRA in this case.

The current set up at J3 is a perfectly normal way of reducing lanes in most countries.

Think about it: the Lane drop / Lane gain set up such as on the N7 at Naas is probably one of the prime reasons why Irish drivers have got into the stupid "middle lane hogging" habit on 3 and 4 lane stretches of motorway. The thinking seems to be that lane 1 is only for traffic joining or leaving the motorway and is not be used for cruising.

I feel that lane drop / gain should never be used for this reason.

The solution to the Drynam interchange issue is to sign the loss of a lane early, install the overhead gantry lane open / lane closed indicators (the green arrow, red X, or move left / right indicators as you see at the entrance to tunnels) for which gantries have already been put in place, so that people merge early.

This works everywhere else - its by far the more correct way than the lane drop / gain.

Makes perfect sense.

Unfortunately you have not allowed for the 50% (being generous) of Irish drivers who simply CANNOT COMPREHEND the rules of the road.

spacetweek

runway16 wrote: »

Similar here mate. I am so sick and tired of trying to obey the rules that I just stay in Lane 1 now, because it means less stupid needless changes of lane brought on by these clowns.

You can already see the behaviour on the new 3 lane M1 Stretch.

What really sickens me, is that last week, the entire apparatus of the state was wheeled out to stop people dodging the M50 toll by tailgating. The gardai launched an operation to catch people, and RTE were rolled out to put an item about it on the 6 o'clock news to let everyone know it wouldnt be tolerated.

Yet this dangerous practice is allowed to carry on with ZERO effort from anyone in authority, be it NRA, Gardai or whoever to stop it.

I have seen the traffic corps on the M50 allowing this to happen, seeing vehicles hogging the middle and overtaking lanes while Lane 1 is empty. NOTHING done.

Think you might be overreacting there mate - it's not a big deal as I see it, and I've loads of experience driving abroad. I drove on a German autobahn once and nearly crashed because they lane dropped Lane 3 (fast lane) on me with inadequate warning. I'd prefer my lane drops occur off to the side, thanks.

Irish and Proud

Excuse the pun, but did anyone see any sign of the gantries that are supposed to be included in the scheme? - I for one can't see any evidence of them from the DCC traffic cams. However, I can see that the hard shoulders are still closed off, so they might be awaiting the arrival of the gantries.

In any case, I might get to drive the road NB on Monday and see for myself.

celticbest

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Excuse the pun, but did anyone see any sign of the gantries that are supposed to be included in the scheme? - I for one can't see any evidence of them from the DCC traffic cams. However, I can see that the hard shoulders are still closed off, so they might be awaiting the arrival of the gantries.

In any case, I might get to drive the road NB on Monday and see for myself.

The gantries which are currently in place around the Airport have not been updated yet either, it still says two lanes to the Airport and two lanes NB instead of three NB......

nordydan

celticbest wrote: »

The gantries which are currently in place around the Airport have not been updated yet either, it still says two lanes to the Airport and two lanes NB instead of three NB......

Indeed, just went to the airport this afternoon, and noticed that they currently force a lane change at the last minute. Luckily I had been reading this thread and knew of the upgrade works