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Why do Irish people not protest?
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Assertion:They are protesting to maintain a system the country clearly cannot afford. What's so difficult to grasp about that?
Response:sponsoredwalk wrote: »Where did you hear the Greek's were protesting to keep the system they already had? I doubt that's the case, could you show me evidence of this assertion? Also, could you define what they seen as the system, with evidence - no more intuition this time.
I can't listen to you telling us what 11 million people were thinking without at least a few million testimonies because there's just no reason for anybody with a brain to believe you unless you've got more than your raw intuition.
By define the system I want to know were the people of Greece fighting for their right to live after mismanagement or were they fighting so that they could keep on making jokes about tax dodging?
Your response:They are protesting against the cuts that have to be made.
A few things you missed there
Also, a bit of evidence on that original assertion would be nice
Also, we have a conspiracy theory afoot! :cool:
"everybody was in on it"
I believe the politics room would at least have the appearance of requiring assertions for claims, a conspiracy theory room or forum would be more adept to sweeping claims lacking evidence.
I swear, after goading you on about it you still absolutely refuse a single new link to back up anything you've claimed yet adamantly argued in favour of philosophical speculation in the face of facts.
It's so blatantly obvious there is some agenda here it's scary & I see I'm wasting my time trying to coax any information out of you. Even after agreeing with what I said the next response reverts to you licking the wounds to your pride, jeesh man "More in, less out" is not the same thing as arguing to wrongfully take away two months pay from the people whose minds you can read because you stupidly thought it was an extra.
There's nothing to learn from you except your biased & ignorant view of how the world should work.
I really hope you aren't in charge of anything serious...0 -
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sponsoredwalk wrote: »Also, a bit of evidence on that original assertion would be nice
What has anyone proposed to do differently?
All I have seen is not to cuts. Have you seen that the protestors actually have a better plan in mind? If so, I'd love to see it?sponsoredwalk wrote: »Also, we have a conspiracy theory afoot! :cool:
"everybody was in on it"
I believe the politics room would at least have the appearance of requiring assertions for claims, a conspiracy theory room or forum would be more adept to sweeping claims lacking evidence.
OK...
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-46598420100302
http://euobserver.com/9/29003
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=apSz28ifLL9U
If you want to argue that it wasn't widespread across Greek society go for it. Conspiracy theory? I think not.sponsoredwalk wrote: »Even after agreeing with what I said the next response reverts to you licking the wounds to your pride, jeesh man "More in, less out" is not the same thing as arguing to wrongfully take away two months pay from the people whose minds you can read because you stupidly thought it was an extra.
I never thought it was an extra. It is generally referred to as an 'extra' two months wages. I am fully aware it forms part of the annual salary. However salaries need to be cut. Basic economics. As I said, it doesn't matter what 'months' are cut, as long as something is.sponsoredwalk wrote: »There's nothing to learn from you except your biased & ignorant view of how the world should work.I really hope you aren't in charge of anything serious...
Ah yeah personal remarks. Enjoy.0 -
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I read back there and realized what you did. You took my claim about the rich not paying taxes & then extended it to the entire population by the logic of your shopping trip story.
Here is why I actually spoke about it so much;
then coupled with this;Signs of wealth abound in Athens, but only a few thousand Greeks out of 11 million declared an income of more than $132,000 last year, according to the Finance Ministry.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2010/05/ny-times.htmlSo tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html
I can't vouch for Joe Papodopolous making"They're taking everything from me, I don't know how I'm going to get by," said 61-year-old Anargyros Bizianis, a municipal worker in the Athens suburb of Piraeus who earns 900 euros a month.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/177000/three-killed-in-deadly-greek-riots“A number of my friends can't find a job and those who have one are very badly paid”
Vaggelis Gettos is a radio journalist from Athens.
The main problem is youth unemployment, which is stifling the country. A number of my friends can't find a job and those who have one are very badly paid. The ‘700-euro generation' still exists among those who have a university degree B]700 euros refers to the monthly minimum wage in Greece[/B. Personally I was paid only 400 euros a month the first two years after I finished uni - which is actually illegal. I now earn 900 euros a month, and I consider myself fortunate compared with my friends.
The size of the state deficits are worrying, but they come as no surprise. This financial calamity is just one part of a serious social crisis sweeping the country."
http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20091210-we-pay-uk-prices-but-were-paid-Greek-wages
But I do see what you are trying to do here & I'm just trying to give you the evidence why I believe this stuff. If you had an argument to stand upon based in reality I would actually listen to you,
I'm only arguing with you in the hope you'll find some flaw in what I believe seeing as you appear to know something I don't & I'd like for you to show me I'm wrong but I'm still waiting for this...0 -
Oddly enough,slipped in between Prinz and Sponsoredwalk`s repartee came probably the most accurate answer to the thread`s title...cause we got the dole we`re too lazy
Thank you Evolutionqy7
The current Governmental fiscal policy has been almost totally focused upon maximizing the Tax-Take from those actually working.
It is apparently based upon some premise that these folks are substantially overpaid and thus should be required to stump up another wodge to keep the country afloat.
However it cannot be denied that the pain,if thats what it is,has been inflicted on the wage/salaried grouping at a far higher level than the Social Welfare recipient.
This policy is not accidental and is derived from quite a significant fear amongst the Political elite that the Social Welfare dependent classes would have a far greater propensity for violent revolt than the usually compliant "working class".
It`s worth bearing in mind that most if not all EU Governments have significantly reviewed their domestic security provisions in the aftermath of the initial financial turmoil in 2008.
Maintaining a Police Force in readiness for Civil Unrest is of itself an expensive business and one can be reassured that the Irish Government have recieved some fairly thorough briefings and Memo`s to Cabinet covering a number of diffferent Civil Unrest scenarios.
One can "Storm the Parliament" all one likes but that act remains little more that Street Theatre and designed for the Media to feed upon.
The most feared civil unrest or disobedience issues are those involving significant areas where control may be wrested from the State and passed to Anarchist leaning groups or individuals.
The current Cabinet will have had fairly scary briefings on the probability of occurrences such as this and more particularly the scale of resources available to restore order if necessary.
Probably the most effective way of heading off this degree of unrest is to keep a certain level of funding available and to ensure that "entitlements" are maintained or even improved.
It boils down to Beer `n Crisps plus the availibility of some token Political sacrifice to allow folks to think they have succeeded in their protests.
Sadly for the "Working Class" there remains no real individual or group capable of putting forward their case for a fairer treatment as opposed to the usual-suspects from the Trades Unions,few of whom appear to have any real grasp of their own members true feelings and abilities.
As so many posters are starting to realize.....if the money ain`t there...it ain`t there :mad:Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Sponsoredwalk:
"Post 72:
I could only be inclined to believe you listen to sensationalist press that uses mis-information on people like you to agree with government interfering in peoples lives & reducing their wages some more;
prinz et al., how are we to believe you when you keep spreading unresearched mis-information?
Post 75:
You obviously are very ignorant of how much is going on around you.
More mis-information & half-cocked opinions...
Post 78:
You simply must not be able to have a sophisticated conversation about the evidence, you are just trying to win some battle,
I am aware you're not some kid who's spamming but are old enough to have completed to college so that is especially scary how you ignore the facts.
Post 88:
Enjoy the misinformation & beliefs removed from reality, if you're too afraid to engage the facts in order to feel good holding onto pseudo-rational sounding claims that get loads of people to agree in a big orgy of ignorance then go ahead.
Post 99:
Now, if you weren't re-interpreting everything I write into what you assume I am writing you'd realize that when some foolish people come on claiming Irish people are lazy I was pointing them to evidence contrary to their preconceived notions.
Post114:
How do we hammer that little tidbit into your head, the emotional scars after your rebellious protesting days must be too deep...
It must be the stupidest thing I've noticed about your comments that you religiously stick to blaming the people when the evidence I keep giving you points to the government being responsible.
Post 122:
There's nothing to learn from you except your biased & ignorant view of how the world should work.
I really hope you aren't in charge of anything serious..."
In between your waffle you have posted the above. You have come across as pompous, condescending, patronising and in one word egotistical.
You thanked Fuhrer in post 77 not seeming to realise that he was being sarcastic towards you and supportive of my comments.
"I'm only arguing with you in the hope you'll find some flaw in what I believe seeing as you appear to know something I don't & I'd like for you to show me I'm wrong but I'm still waiting for this... "
By your own admission you are only arguing with prinz. If you are only arguing than prinz can reply with his opinion and his opinion is valid.
If you want to debate in facts and figures only and leave opinions at the door than you also have to drop your opinions. I'm sure prinz would only be to happy to engage in debate.
As the quote goes at the start of OfftheBall "If you want to box we'll box, if you want to play football we'll play football"
prinz has the patience of a saint to continue this argument with you because as he said, it's going round in circles and for that I tip my hat to him. I on the other hand will bow out at this stage as there's only so many brickwalls one can bang one's head against.
BTW, good to see you still posting at 19:42. I guess you were running late then for 19:30 start to the protest. :cool:
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Dogbert, prinz is the only person who has made any claims worthy of a reply, the rest have just followed his logic or been off topic for me to respond.
Also, I don't mind appearing condescending because there have been countless times my comments have been ignored but the opinions prevail when I provide facts against them. I only wish you'd actually get so into researching my links as opposed to my frustrated comments Me coming off arrogant does nothing to change the truth about what is happening in Greece.
Also, it's none of your business where I live, where I was yesterday or what happened to me yesterday or anything, how can I respond to comments like this when they have no relevance to the situation, nothing to contribue to the topic and are 100% ad hominem?
Now can you just ask yourself if the fact that you obviously don't like me is changing your opinion on what is happening in Greece?
It's difficult to listen to you say 'the majority of Irish people are lazy' when you are unable to listen to the facts I present because of the way you feel about me...
To Prinz;
What kind of a skimpy response is that? It's blatantly obvious how many questions you're ignoring at this stage...queue question 'what questions am I ignoring'
look up the page!
Here is more of your extrapolation & more of your confusion.
At the start your complaining;They've been living it up for years
because of;shockingly low retirement ages, people getting paid 14 months wages per year, notoriously low tax returns, a massive proportion of the economy operated on an under the counter/black market style, cooking their national books.. etc etc etc. Their government played along and the Greek people were delighted.
Gravy train stops..O it's the big bad government screwing us over, we didn't have a clue :rolleyes: Get out of it.
and now you're trying to using people who complain about low wages to back you up.
What is it prinz, are they livin' it up or are they not making enough?
Also, who's arguing about the corruption?
Again, didn't I say I 100% agree with you
But now you're using the thing I agree with you on to argue against me for some reasonand what's worse is that you're also extrapolating again based on a few comments in the links with no figures to back it up...
I've told you,Signs of wealth abound in Athens, but only a few thousand Greeks out of 11 million declared an income of more than $132,000 last year, according to the Finance Ministry.
So, the obvious thing is to see what Greece's wage system is like to see if they are all above 132,000...
http://www.payscale.com/research/GR/Country=Greece/Salary
I don't see the average as being above 132,000...
So, with the only figures how can we extrapolate such as you keep doing?
The only explanation is ulterior motives against the Greeks, how else can one explain why a person would fight so adamantly via his personal opinion in the face of continual facts & figures?
Seeing as your so fond of philosophy & off-hand comments lets explore this one;
So, exploring this comment we see that the Greek's must have borrowed a lot, this was never mentioned by you?Good question!! The cost of living has risen in Greece espaecially after the Euro was introduced. Being one of those whose minimun wage is 700 euros, I find myself using credit cards often. Also you should know that most people here have alot of loans, for houses, cars etc. So as you can see Greek people are in great debt.
http://www.ask4greece.org/answer/152/
Following your example I'm going to argue this is the case against your theory of corruption & tax evasion, the Greek's just borrowed a lot because they weren't as smart as you in knowing about these bad credit cards :rolleyes:.
Also,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/election_2010/8666272.stm
Here the media is telling it's the low waged people who were protesting.
Are you telling us that among these low wage people are those tax evaders?
Can you give us proof?0 -
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sponsoredwalk wrote: »Dogbert, prinz is the only person who has made any claims worthy of a reply, the rest have just followed his logic or been off topic for me to respond.
In your haste to reply to my comment you clearly failed to see the context of what I wrote showing how you misinterpret what is being said to you. I did not infer that prinz was the only person you are arguing with.sponsoredwalk wrote: »Also, I don't mind appearing condescending because there have been countless times my comments have been ignored but the opinions prevail when I provide facts against them. I only wish you'd actually get so into researching my links as opposed to my frustrated comments Me coming off arrogant does nothing to change the truth about what is happening in Greece.
So my conclusion of you being egotistical appears to be correct.
Apologies. I guess it was foolish of me to assume that one so vocal on boards with regards to protests would actually make the effort to go and support an actual protest.:rolleyes:sponsoredwalk wrote: »Also, it's none of your business where I live, where I was yesterday or what happened to me yesterday or anything, how can I respond to comments like this when they have no relevance to the situation, nothing to contribue to the topic and are 100% ad hominem?sponsoredwalk wrote: »Now can you just ask yourself if the fact that you obviously don't like me is changing your opinion on what is happening in Greece?
Just how old are you? You seem to be taking people disagreeing with your opinion a little too personally. Just because I don't agree with a person has nothing to do with whether I like them or not. :rolleyes:sponsoredwalk wrote: »It's difficult to listen to you say 'the majority of Irish people are lazy' when you are unable to listen to the facts I present because of the way you feel about me...
See above answer.0 -
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Again, you're wrong. The 1 billion figure relates to corruption in the way of bribery of public officials. The 30 billion relates to tax evasion. The figures are not estimates of the same thing.
Alright, I can see there is another misunderstanding between us over English but this time it's understandable...Papandreou says that Greek workers and companies have skirted tax worth 31 billion euros, more than 10 percent of gross domestic product.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=apSz28ifLL9U
I read corruption as meaning both the political kind & people evading tax & if you want to sidetrack the conversation to a discussion about semantics that is too much of a waste of time for me to do frankly...ATHENS (Reuters) - Corruption cost Greece about $1 billion last year, watchdog Transparency International said on Tuesday, up 5 percent from the year before, with state hospitals, urban planning and tax offices the most corrupt.
The report came a day after Prime Minister George Papandreou identified graft as a root cause of the country's fiscal crisis.
Transparency International estimated the cost of petty corruption at about 800 million euros ($1.08 billion) last year, an increase of 39 million euros compared with 2008.
Anyway, what I've said about this is that it's inconsequential how much we speculate over the figures until the work is done, the studies themselves are only speculation & the only resolution is hardcore evidence.
Again, what I've been saying is that you've been tarring everybody from Joe Popadopolous to Vaggelis Gettos as tax evaders in these blanket assertions & I've been calling you for evidence. Do you not realize the studies have not been done & there is no evidence that 'everybody' was in on it? You're claiming things that cannot be proven yet & I could only guess as to the reason why...Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?th&emc=thHe has provided you with amble evidence and links.
You mean the three links he provided after I goaded him into it that I haven't been arguing against after about 4 pages of philosophy & sweeping claims that he still hasn't answered?
You call that ample evidence for everything he's claimed?
post #108 I'm awaiting answers on.
You'll see in post #120 he finally admits he was wrong about this 14 month wage nonsense he was espousing but then in post #121 he denies it. But then in post #124 he denies he was ever saying anything about 'extra'. I have the guys quotes in my posts that say otherwise...
Do you understand what I'm up against here? It's very sly & nobody else seems to notice this or call him on it...
What's more is that he is using links with which I have no problem to continue claiming this conspiracy theory 'everybody was in on it' when those links only recapitulate things I've also been claiming.
Even though I shouldn't need to answer such sweeping claims I have researched the population wages anyway after already providing a graph in my last post, you'll see why at the end of my post & how it relates to him claiming everybody was in on it.
Then;
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2001/09/feature/gr0109102f.htm
The report finds that unit labour costs continue to fall in real terms. Between 1981 and 2000, they decreased by approximately 25%. Thus it is obvious that the business sector of the Greek economy enjoys cheap labour costs, which should have brought about a substantial improvement in the competitiveness of the Greek economy, states INE. However, the reduction of labour costs appears to have been transformed more into increased profits and less into improved competitiveness.
(that link is the history of Greece's decline in wages)
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/studies/tn0808019s/gr0808019q.htm
so wages are not exactly stellar for everyone & we can't go claiming everybody is rich & living it up as was claimed earlier by prinz.
As regards earnings, there are no characteristics distinguishing them from earnings in other sectors of the economy. Nevertheless, the Union of Computer and Communications Engineers says that Greek scientists’ pay is differentiated in the same way as in other countries. In Greece the average monthly salary of scientists in the sector is around €1,500, among the lowest in Europe. Thus it is objectively difficult to have an influx of immigrant scientists, since pay in Greece is already very low. On the other hand, the Observatory’s field research has shown that enterprises are aiming change the way they are organised, by cutting costs in order to increase productivity. Furthermore, no differences between multinational and Greek-owned businesses have been noted as regards pay policy. The enterprise-level agreements in the sector provide for much higher salaries for workers than successive EGSSEs. For example, the 2004-2005 enterprise-level agreement at Cosmote mobile telephony company created better levels of minimum pay than the EGSSE for those two years. Thus, in 2004 minimum pay at Cosmote was €775 (compared to the €559 set by the EGSSE) and in 2005 it was €813.75, compared to the €591 set by the EGSSE (GR0410106F). These data, in conjunction with the fact that the sector’s employees have a relatively high level of education, and that highly skilled employees (electronic technicians, engineers, etc.) are in the €1,251-1,500 pay bracket, which according to the INE/GSEE survey includes only 11.6% of Greek paid employees, create pay characteristics in the sector that are better than those set by the EGSSEs.You then just shot back that he believes all the lies he reads.
Well that depends, what are you referring to? If you are talking about the 14 month extra pay then yes he must hae believed the lies he read about it being extra, if you're referring to his latest evidence then no I did not shoot back that, I f'ing agree with his links to a point, only what they signify & not their details which are speculational at this point.
What I also said: he is philosophizing based on shoddy evidence I agree with when there is other evidence counter to his sweeping claims such as shockingly low retirement ages, protesters demonstrating explicitly to maintain their original & corrupt system, everybody was in on it, protests being about killing bankers. :rolleyes:I mean, theres little point arguing with you because whenever there is evidence to counter your statements, you claim the evidence fraud.
No I said I agree with his evidence but that it has little bearing on the truth because nobody knows what the exact figures are until they clamp down on it. I don't agree with the extrapolations he makes based on it... Am I to take it by your lack of questioning him yet interrogating me for questioning him that you do?Heres one example about how the Greeks are happy to wallow in their corruption
http://boingboing.net/2010/05/04/satellite-photos-cat.html
The Greeks have a tax on people with swimming pools, only around 300 of 16,000 people who had them filed it in their tax returns.
Clear evidence of not government corruption but ordinary greek citizens corruption.
You musn't have been reading my posts correctly
Did you not realize I posted this same claim earlier in post #128?
I bolded the swimming pool line from the article that I linked to and all
What can I say to this? You must be arguing against someone else because you're trying to use evidence I agree with against me for some reason :eek:
Now, I've been trying to do some more research on this topic seeing as it's so popular but I can't find out how rich you have to be to own a swimming pool but if you'll read post #128 I included more evidence than just a swimming pool to argue my claims & said that only a few thousand admitted they make over 132,000 a year when the evidence of wealth in Athens & elsewhere clearly says otherwise.
Is it the rich or the poor who are lying???
How can people on 900 euro a month afford swimming pools & how does that mean they are instantly tax evaders?
How is that everybody?
Dogbert, Thanks for a helpful post with no relevance to the discussion whatsoever apart from a closer study of me & some character assasination thrown in. If you're going to post more nonsense about me then don't expect a reply. Maybe you'd go back and read the links & posts & try to skip the condescending comments I've made or at least try to see why I was making them, but mostly read the content.
Maybe you already have though? Am I to assume you already have after;
Am I right in assuming your calling the content of my posts waffle or just the frustrated comments?In between your waffle you have posted the above. You have come across as pompous, condescending, patronising and in one word egotistical.0 -
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That's it I'm out, pointless.
:rolleyes:So €30 Billion relates to people living in one neighbourhood of Athens does it?
sponsoredwalk wrote: »Now, I've been trying to do some more research on this topic seeing as it's so popular but I can't find out how rich you have to be to own a swimming pool but if you'll read post #128 I included more evidence than just a swimming pool to argue my claims & said that only a few thousand admitted they make over 132,000 a year when the evidence of wealth in Athens & elsewhere clearly says otherwise.
http://www.luchaworld.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/homer_facepalm.jpg
Anyway, from your link;
Here's another example of what I predicted would happen, speculation on the figures...Tax dodging in Greece is so rampant that the Bank of Greece estimates the country could be losing as much as five billion euros a year. While that's a far cry from the €54 billion needed for 2010, it could result in much harsher cuts as the country tries to get out from under its crushing debts.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/02/how-tax-evasion-is-complicating-greek-rescue-efforts/36365/
If you go back to my Carl Sagan quote you might finally see the connection.
prinz, the rest of them links are not exactly answering your claims, are they?
I have no comment on them because I agree with what they say & the stuff you've bolded. There's no question about it so I don't know why you're bolding obvious statements like widespread corruption.
I don't doubt it, can we get that clear? :rolleyes:
What I've been calling into question this whole time is claims like;sponsoredwalk wrote: »shockingly low retirement ages, protesters demonstrating explicitly to maintain their original & corrupt system, everybody was in on it, protests being about killing bankers.
Now, notice that one in blue. Even these quotes do not automatically justify your conspiracy theory without plenty of evidence & facts and figures.
Is it not clear that the police have not cracked down on it, the money has not been recollected & the guilty have not been found.
Popular claims are not enough to hold up in court when the allegations are so overarching.
"Homo praesumitur bonus donec probetur malus"
(One is innocent until proven guilty.)
Cogitas?
Also, the claim that people take second jobs and do not write it up is good, that would go to explain some of the corruption definitely. It'd be nice to see the statistics on how much of this takes place but they don't exist as of yet.
Still, all of these quotes you've posted it do nothing to justify;
sponsoredwalk wrote: »shockingly low retirement ages, protesters demonstrating explicitly to maintain their original & corrupt system, everybody was in on it, protests being about killing bankers.
(remember this is the short version, go up through the thread for the long drawn out version).
which strangely enough sums up the points on which I've been calling you this entire time.
Seeing as the thread is about protests I had pulled at least 10 links in this thread to historical protests & you just label them as ^^^^^(read above in the quotes)^^^
There's also the matter of proof that the people of Greece were protesting to maintain their original system.
I also, again, require proof of what the people seen as their original system seeing as you have claimed this very thing sir.
Completely bogus & nobody else is willing to call you on it.
This whole arguent originates, if you remember, to the claims on your part that protesting was stupid & that the protesters were demonstrating to keep their current system and that many of the protesters were also tax frauds therefore protesting is stupid.
If there were tax frauds among the demonstraters, how does that somehow take away from the non tax frauds who were demonstrating?
How does that take away from the honest people who demonstrated to protest against their system & their government lying about the state of the economy for so many years?
This is just like your very first post, because some people in a demonstration go in there with different motives you think it fit to condemn everything.
Isn't this why you ended your protest days?
What I keep showing you is these are stupid extrapolations.
There's another little thing, the fact that there are people in Greece who do pay taxes, what does that do to your claims?
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