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Why do Irish people not protest?

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1246

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    #92
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    paky wrote: »
    Because the Irish have a lazy mentality. They'd rather put up with something than do something about it.

    I'm starting to think it's just the people that post these diatribes that have the lazy mentality they appear to hate so much.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/129036-eirigi-announce-protest-anglo-irish-bank-2pm-15th-may-15.html

    http://www.hs.facebook.com/pages/Blasphemy-Law-Protest-Walk-Ireland/120425947973155?v=info

    http://irishtaxi.org/?p=599

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0429/breaking41.html


    Do I need to go and pull up other historical protests in which huge groups of Irish people got off their asses and did something?


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    #93
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    Butch Cassidy wrote: »
    • Fintan O'Toole (Journalist)


    The Drama critic?


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    #94
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Butch Cassidy wrote: »
    8d460ab1f4641107a2142f0d1ce1b5d5.jpg


    We Want Jobs and Public Services
    Tuesday 11th May
    Assemble 7.30 Garden of Remembrance, Parnell Square Dublin

    Speakers:
    • Fintan O'Toole (Journalist)
    • john Kidd (SIPTU Firefighters)
    • Janette Byrne (Patients Together)
    • Walter Cullen (Unite trade union)
    • John Bisset (Canal Communities Project)
    • Professor Kathleen Lynch (Equality Studies Centre UCD)
    • Siobhan O ’Donoghue (Director of the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland)

    Jaysus, if you sweated for a week trying to draw up a list of the very last people likely come up with a constructive resolution to our current economic crisis, you'd never manage to come up with one as comprehensive as that one!
    :D


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    #95
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Do I need to go and pull up other historical protests in which huge groups of Irish people got off their asses and did something?


    http://www.hs.facebook.com/pages/Blasphemy-Law-Protest-Walk-Ireland/120425947973155?v=info

    1 person doing a protest walk...

    http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/129036-eirigi-announce-protest-anglo-irish-bank-2pm-15th-may-15.html

    Er, time machine time for this one, it hasn't happened yet :confused: Time will tell how 'huge it will be'

    http://irishtaxi.org/?p=599

    Tried the link to see an update on this protest...404 Not Found. Last taxi protest I remember had less than 100 participants.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0429/breaking41.html

    Taking place today. Again, we'll see how huge the protest turns out to be.


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    #96
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Wow @ least you're reading the links now :cool:

    Well, I don't know what you're trying to imply about numbers per se, just because there is a low turnout to an event doesn't necessarily take away from the goals.

    Historically most movements & protests originate with a few people, such as the Vietnam War or Rosa Parks on a bus, it doesn't mean they were futile efforts, and neither does 1000 thousand taxi drivers complaining about the surplus 19,000 (estimate from a link if you need it).

    Furthermore, the one man protest walk is a symbol of how people feel about the blasphemy law, I would of thought you'd realise that without pulling ad hominem attacks on it's goals.
    I must admit it was low of you to do that, I would wonder what you're perspective on the blasphemy law is after reading that.

    Just because you became disheartened in protests after using this brand of logic (page 4, post #46) we've seen spread throughout this page in your comments doesn't mean all these people are wrong, sometimes it's not veryone else that is at fault ;)


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    #97
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Well, I don't know what you're trying to imply about numbers per se, just because there is a low turnout to an event doesn't necessarily take away from the goals.

    You just gave examples of protests involving "huge numbers" of Irish people to counter the claim that Irish people don't protest.

    Either you can provide an example of a huge political protest or you can't. In this case you cannot. Just because Boy Barrett and his buddies hold a protest of a couple of dozen does not mean the vast vast majority of the Irish people back their aims and goals.


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    #98
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Furthermore, the one man protest walk is a symbol of how people feel about the blasphemy law....


    Why, I don't remember him asking me for my opinion? How does he know how I feel about the blasphemy law? Does he have a petition showing substantial support or some such?


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    #99
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    prinz wrote: »
    You just gave examples of protests involving "huge numbers" of Irish people to counter the claim that Irish people don't protest.

    It's strange, I can't seem to find where I wrote those words. Perhaps you'll let me know where I wrote that....

    Now, if you weren't re-interpreting everything I write into what you assume I am writing you'd realize that when some foolish people come on claiming Irish people are lazy I was pointing them to evidence contrary to their preconceived notions.

    Also, I think the anger is getting to you, (or else you must have a weak grasp of the English language & I apologize), but you might want to reread what I said about the blasphemy law & link that to grammatical use of the word "people" and hopefully come to the conclusion that it doesn't have to include everybody,

    It might then dawn on you that I purposefully chose a word
    such as that because there is the obvious fact that some
    people who agree with the law first enacted it &
    I surely wasn't including
    them in "people".

    Why are you asking me for his work, go check out the Atheist & Agnostic section or use google, I can't be telling you obvious things...

     Oh, and who are Boy Barrett & Joe Papadopolous :confused:


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    #100
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    So are you disagreeing with the original post and saying that Irish people do go out to protest?

    After all that is what we're supposed to be debating here.

    Well, wouldn't you know it somebody is finally reading my posts & listening to what I have to say as opposed to trying to contradict me.


    Yes, I am. Not everybody protests (notice prinz how he uses the word people & how I use it, we don't literally mean everybody!). but there are people who do, albeit not always reported in the press. There have been a good few that I was unaware of tbh


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    #101
    dogbert27
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Now, if you weren't re-interpreting everything I write into what you assume I am writing you'd realize that when some foolish people come on claiming Irish people are lazy I was pointing them to evidence contrary to their preconceived notions.

    Fine, if you want to be pedantic about it: the majority of Irish people are lazy


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    #102
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    Fine, if you want to be pedantic about it: the majority of Irish people are lazy


     I can't believe it Dogbert, 13:40, you delete an objective question directed at me to go off and start criticizing people again.

    What is this impulse to try to put people down???


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    #103
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    It's strange, I can't seem to find where I wrote those words. Perhaps you'll let me know where I wrote that....
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Do I need to go and pull up other historical protests in which huge groups of Irish people got off their asses and did something?

    Grammar my good friend. 'Other' implies those you did pull up involved huge groups of people.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Also, I think the anger is getting to you, (or else you must have a weak grasp of the English language & I apologize), but you might want to reread what I said about the blasphemy law & link that to grammatical use of the word "people" and hopefully come to the conclusion that it doesn't have to include everybody...


    See above re the grammatical use of words :pac:. Then again I never claimed 'people' had to include everyone..... but as far as I can tell it includes no one. Again if you care to show evidence of public support for this lad's protest walk please do. All I can see is 134 fb 'likes'.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Why are you asking me for his work, go check out the Atheist & Agnostic section or use google, I can't be telling you obvious things...


    You're the one making claims about who and what he represents not me. Either back up your claim or not, I don't care.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Oh, and who are Boyd Barrett....

    http://www.people-before-profit.org/taxonomy/term/3

    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    & Joe Papadopolous :confused:

    *facepalm*


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    #104
    dogbert27
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I can't believe it Dogbert, 13:40, you delete an objective question directed at me to go off and start criticizing people again.

    From reading previous answers you had already answered my question.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    What is this impulse to try to put people down???

    I'm not the one calling posters ignorant.


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    #105
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    No basic English would imply the other historical instances I would pull up would be mass protests, especially if one of my original links involved a one-man protest ffs...

    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/70000-people-bring-Dublin-to-standstill-in-day-of-protest-69396057.html

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7903518.stm


    http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE51K1L520090221

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest#Ireland

    There are a few pretty recent protests all in the 100,000 range.

    I don't know if that's enough for you...

    I'm not going to nit-pick this blasphemy walk, you can discount it if you like. It still doesn't detract from link after link, fact after fact that I've thrown at you despite this desperate distraction of yours from your original claims that I've given ample evidence for. Please go back to the wikipedia link and the one below it on Greek retirement, also on the 14 month wages. You were making two loud claims that were factually inaccurate & I called you on them. You might also o well to realise that you were using these fallicious claims to back your rejection of Greece's right to protest.
    Now that the mis-information has been dealt with you are talking about Ireland & claiiming protests occur in small numbers, yet I provide you with evidence to the contrary. Do we see a pattern here?


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    #106
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    I'm not the one calling posters ignorant.

    Sorry, I don't mean to insult anyone but I'm just a bit angry at having people continually ignore my links yet continually spout lies.


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    #107
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Please go back to the wikipedia link and the one below it on Greek retirement, also on the 14 month wages. You were making two loud claims that were factually inaccurate & I called you on them.

    What claims were factually inaccurate? No money = no payments. Simple.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    You might also o well to realise that you were using these fallicious claims to back your rejection of Greece's right to protest..

    Where did I reject anyone's right to protest. What I did say of Greece is that their protests are futile. They don't have the money to continue the system they were running. The Greek people knew this. It wasn't a major shock that it couldn't continue forever.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Now that the mis-information has been dealt with ..

    What mis-information? I have lost counts how many times I have asked this..
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Sorry, I don't mean to insult anyone but I'm just a bit angry at having people continually ignore my links yet continually spout lies.

    What lies?


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    #108
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    prinz wrote: »
    What claims were factually inaccurate? No money = no payments. Simple.
    prinz wrote: »
    What mis-information? I have lost counts how many times I have asked this..
    prinz wrote: »
    What lies?

    Playing dumb wont work when we have your words in writing.

    prinz wrote: »
    They've been living it up for years compared to the rest of us with shockingly low retirement ages, people getting paid 14 months wages per year, notoriously low tax returns, .

    prinz wrote: »
    You don't think it crossed anyone's mind that maybe a country in deficit can't afford to pay public sector workers two extra months pay a year?


    1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement#Retirement_in_specific_countries

    2: http://topforeignstocks.com/2010/02/09/a-review-of-retirement-age-in-oecd-countries

    These are links refuting ignorant lies that Greece has some crazy scheme with those who retire early. There are wealthy countries in those lists whose retirement ages are lower than in Greece & there are poorer countries like Mexico & Korea whose retirement ages are higher. (by poorer I mean before this latest incident with Greece obviously).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_North_Korea
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_South_Korea

    3: http://livingingreece.gr/2007/07/29/examples-of-jobs-and-salaries-in-athens/

    4: http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/04/news/international/greece_pay.fortune/index.htm


    Here are answers to lies about Greece's 14 month scheme with paying their people. You'll notice if you read them that there is no bonus here & it's the same goddamn scheme as France, German, Belgium & Holland.

    However, there seems to be plenty of uproar to reduce the wages of these people, the public sector, while as is one honest thing you've mentioned that there are notoriously low tax returns.

    http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2010/05/ny-times.html
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

    So, would we agree that the rich who avoid tax returns would be partly to blame?

    I don't see why the public sector should have to pay when the Greek police/government cannot catch tax crooks.


    I am not calling opinions like;
    prinz wrote: »
    Their government played along and the Greek people were delighted.

    Gravy train stops..O it's the big bad government screwing us over, we didn't have a clue :rolleyes: Get out of it.


    &
    prinz wrote: »
    A country with an aging population and serious money problems cannot afford such generous retirement conditions. Simple. No money.


    lies per se but when they are founded on all of the other stuff you've said, i.e. incorrect things that you claimed were going on in Greece, then wouldn't you think these opinions would be questionable?

    :rolleyes:
    prinz wrote: »
    Such as? What 'misinformation' have I spread?

    Just to get it straight so you don't repeat yourself,
    prinz wrote: »
    You don't think it crossed anyone's mind that maybe a country in deficit can't afford to pay public sector workers two extra months pay a year?

    prinz wrote: »
    shockingly low retirement ages, people getting paid 14 months wages per year,


    :rolleyes:
    prinz wrote: »
    The job of a union is also to ensure that the country is economically viable going forward. It's of no benefit to the workers or the union if the country goes bust trying to meet their expectations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union
    A trade union (British English) or labor union (American English) is an organization of workers who have banded together to achieve common goals such as better working conditions. The trade union, through its leadership, bargains with the employer on behalf of union members (rank and file[1] members) and negotiates labor contracts (collective bargaining) with employers. This may include the negotiation of wages, work rules, complaint procedures, rules governing hiring, firing and promotion of workers, benefits, workplace safety and policies. The agreements negotiated by the union leaders are binding on the rank and file members and the employer and in some cases on other non-member workers.
    :rolleyes:


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    #109
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Playing dumb wont work when we have your words in writing.
    1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement#Retirement_in_specific_countries

    So how is what I said factually inaccurate ?
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    These are links refuting ignorant lies that Greece has some crazy scheme with those who retire early. There are wealthy countries in those lists whose retirement ages are lower than in Greece & there are poorer countries like Mexico & Korea whose retirement ages are higher.

    What other countries do or do not do is irrelevant when it comes to fixing the problems in Greece. Arguing that some other country has the same system has no impact whatsoever on whether Greece can continue the system it has.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Here are answers to lies about Greece's 14 month scheme....

    What lies have I posted? I don't think you're actually paying the slightest bit of attention to what people are saying.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    However, there seems to be plenty of uproar to reduce the wages of these people, the public sector, while as is one honest thing you've mentioned that there are notoriously low tax returns.
    So, would we agree that the rich who avoid tax returns would be partly to blame? ....

    The "poor" average worker who dodges his share of tax is no better than the multimillionaire who dodges his share. Tax dodging was a national past-time in Greece, and yet you are still trying to argue that the average Greeks couldn't possible have known that the country was running out of money... Where did they think money was going to come from? Again, having your cake and eating it doesn't work. In those other coutries you mentioned the tax regime is stringent and merciless.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I don't see why the public sector should have to pay when the Greek police/government cannot catch tax crooks.....

    It wasn't just a handful of tax crooks, it was basically the entire Greek population from the top down.


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    , i.e. incorrect things that you claimed were going on in Greece, then wouldn't you think these opinions would be questionable?.....

    What did I claim was going on in Greece is incorrect? In the face of Greece's economic troubles then their system is not going to work.. it could never work. A massive public sector bill, and minimal tax intake.... sooner or later it has to stop. Are you honestly trying to say that this system can continue without massive cutbacks on spending and increased taxation?
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union

    Where does it say that the trade union's job is to get the best deal for the worker even if it means destroying the employer?


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    #110
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    duffflash wrote: »
    Why are we so afraid of showing the government and the EU how we feel?

    I worked on Abbey street for a few months when all the bank problems started and the budgets were announced.

    Trust me, Irish people protest


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    #111
    dogbert27
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Here are answers to lies about Greece's 14 month scheme with paying their people. You'll notice if you read them that there is no bonus here & it's the same goddamn scheme as France, German, Belgium & Holland.

    I really don't get your accusations of prinz being a liar with regard to this. He says there is a 14 month payment scheme. You agree and say there is a 14 month payment scheme the same as France, German, Belgium & Holland.

    Where exactly is the lie? :confused:


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    #112
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    What is amazing is that you do not consult the figures to refute me and then go on to claim that the similarities with other coutries is irrelevant.

    How can the fact that Greek people have the luxury of early retirement at 57 be relevant if Greece got stuck with such massive debt yet other countries who followed similar systems to all of the points you've claimed haven't ended up like Greece?

    If you consulted the figures

    France 57 60 51% 12% 1% 0%

    Germany     63 65 64% 23% 3% 0%

    Greece     57 65 51% 31% 8% 1%

    Italy     57 65 34% 12% 1% 0%

    For just these countries you'd notice something amazing.

    Greece has a higher percentage of people still employed than all the other countries mentioned there from the ages of 60 and up!

    Them, having more workers in old age contributing to society than other richer countries still ended up in this debt.

    The "poor" average worker who dodges his share of tax is no better than the multimillionaire who dodges his share. Tax dodging was a national past-time in Greece, and yet you are still trying to argue that the average Greeks couldn't possible have known that the country was running out of money... Where did they think money was going to come from? Again, having your cake and eating it doesn't work. In those other coutries you mentioned the tax regime is stringent and merciless.
    I can't argue with vagueries like this, you keep assuming the Greeks were thinking this and that, including;
    Their government played along and the Greek people were delighted
    There's no way you can actually prove what Joe bloggs Papadopolous was thinking so I'm not going to appease such opinions.

    How can I take seriously a man who claims to know what 11 million people were thinking?

    Where were you as Greece led itself into decline? I would have published my miraculous intuitions.
    Where does it say that the trade union's job is to get the best deal for the worker even if it means destroying the employer?
    :confused:

    Also, the lie about the 14 month scheme comes from him claiming threy can't afford to pay their workers an extra two months thereby implicitly arguing it should be taken away.
    prinz wrote: »
    You don't think it crossed anyone's mind that maybe a country in deficit can't afford to pay public sector workers two extra months pay a year?


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    #113
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    What is amazing is that you do not consult the figures to refute me and then go on to claim that the similarities with other coutries is irrelevant. How can the fact that Greek people have the luxury of early retirement at 57 be relevant if Greece got stuck with such massive debt yet other countries who followed similar systems to all of the points you've claimed haven't ended up like Greece?

    OK, one last time... other countries are irrelevant when we are discussing the protests in Greece. In Greece the country is skint. It can no longer afford the system it had. Therefore this system has to change. No amount of throwing stones at police is going to magic up the funds to cover the costs.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Them, having more workers in old age contributing to society than other richer countries still ended up in this debt.

    Yes they ended up on debt because money coming in didn't cover money going out you see. Therefore the logical remedy is to cut money going out and increase money coming in.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I can't argue with vagueries like this, you keep assuming the Greeks were thinking this and that.....

    They are protesting to maintain a system the country clearly cannot afford. What's so difficult to grasp about that?
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    How can I take seriously a man who claims to know what 11 million people were thinking?

    :rolleyes: Seriously? For some reason you can take a lone walker protester seriously... apparently he represents what people feel wasn't it? How does he do that I wonder.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Where were you as Greece led itself into decline? I would have published my miraculous intuitions.

    This is the same kind of nonsense we hear in Ireland, that nobody ever said a crash would come. Yes people did. Yes people did note that Greece was in difficulty. They had to lie their way into the Euro... people knew that. They had to include the black market into economic output in order to meet targets... people knew that.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Also, the lie about the 14 month scheme comes from him claiming threy can't afford to pay their workers an extra two months thereby implicitly arguing it should be taken away.

    Yes, they need to cut the wage bill. I don't care if it's the "extra two months" or if it's July and April. Either way it has to be done and again no amount of protesting is going to change that fact.


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    #114
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    So much inconsistency there, just because you answer things I've said it doesn't make them good answers prinz.

    Protesting is not about throwing stones at police, even if some people devolve into that act it doesn't make it right.

     How do we hammer that little tidbit into your head, the emotional scars after your rebellious protesting days must be too deep...

    Where did you hear the Greek's were protesting to keep the system they already had? I doubt that's the case, could you show me evidence of this assertion? Also, could you define what they seen as the system, with evidence - no more intuition this time.

    I can't listen to you telling us what 11 million people were thinking without at least a few million testimonies because there's just no reason for anybody with a brain to believe you unless you've got more than your raw intuition.

    By define the system I want to know were the people of Greece fighting for their right to live after mismanagement or were they fighting so that they could keep on making jokes about tax dodging?

    Also, I was at meetings where they said that line too, that people in Ireland knew beforehand about the oncoming system.

    Why didn't these people do anything?
    Why didn't you prinz since you claim to know what they were thinking all this time?
    What could anybody do to stop it?

    Notice how you now claim that "people knew", no pressure on your head anymore after claims about knowing Greece's national pasttimes.

    However the crux of your argument;
    they need to cut the wage bill. I don't care if it's the "extra two months" or if it's July and April. Either way it has to be done and again no amount of protesting is going to change that fact.
    just shows how ignorant you are.

    You are saying that the greeks deserve to be paid for 2 months less for doing the normal amount of work.

    The solution is not to reduce a population into abject servitude because their government lies about the euro and doesn't catch tax evaders.

    I don't doubt the country can't afford the system it had but who f'ing has the system constructed so, the government!
    To keep within the monetary union guidelines, the government of Greece has been found to have consistently deliberately misreported, in other words falsified, the country's official economic statistics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_European_sovereign_debt_crisis
    It must be the stupidest thing I've noticed about your comments that you religiously stick to blaming the people when the evidence I keep giving you points to the government being responsible.

    You really want the people of Greece to suffer & pay for the consequences of a government that not only lied to it's people, but all of Europe.

    Why?


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    #115
    moonpurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭moonpurple


    they do

    on www.boards.ie


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    #116
    dogbert27
    Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Also, the lie about the 14 month scheme comes from him claiming threy can't afford to pay their workers an extra two months thereby implicitly arguing it should be taken away.

    But they can't afford to pay their workers for 12 months let alone 14 months!

    Where is the lie?


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    #117
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Protesting is not about throwing stones at police, even if some people devolve into that act it doesn't make it right.

    You're right, it's also about burning your fellow workers alive while they sit at their desks and actually work :rolleyes:
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Where did you hear the Greek's were protesting to keep the system they already had? I doubt that's the case, could you show me evidence of this assertion?

    They are protesting against the cuts that have to be made.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    By define the system I want to know were the people of Greece fighting for their right to live after mismanagement or were they fighting so that they could keep on making jokes about tax dodging?

    Who is taking their right to life?
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Also, I was at meetings where they said that line too, that people in Ireland knew beforehand about the oncoming system.
    Why didn't these people do anything?
    Why didn't you prinz since you claim to know what they were thinking all this time?
    What could anybody do to stop it?

    People in Ireland did know. One of the reasons I have no debt whatsoever to my name. At once stage I was getting credit card offers weekly. Total rubbish. It didn't take a genius to work out what was 'rip off' Ireland. We all knew about, talked about it. House prices were at ridiculous levels.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Notice how you now claim that "people knew", no pressure on your head anymore after claims about knowing Greece's national pasttimes.

    Of course they knew, 25% of economic output was blackmarket. You don't think the Greek people knew that one day that would probably bite them in the ass? See below for the NY Times to describe as a "way of life" in Greece, bribery, brown envelopes, under the table etc etc. It wasn't dodgy councillors getting money for planning permission. It was your average Joe agreeing to do day to day business like shopping, eating out, getting the car fixed etc etc etc under the table.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    You are saying that the greeks deserve to be paid for 2 months less for doing the normal amount of work..

    No, they can keep getting paid the same. No skin off mine, but the country will bankrupt itself and no one will have any work then. Wages need to be cut.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    The solution is not to reduce a population into abject servitude because their government lies about the euro and doesn't catch tax evaders...

    But who are the tax evaders? The Greek people themselves..

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html?th&emc=th

    Doctors, mechanics, newspaper vendors.... but it's the government's fault right? Nobody could see this coming down the line?
    That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.
    Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before.
    Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I don't doubt the country can't afford the system it had but who f'ing has the system constructed so, the government!

    Yes the government are to blame. The people are to blame for going along with it and voting in that government. The unions are to blame for threatening warfare if the government tried to change the system. The government ministers don't have billions in their back pockets, the money has to come from somewhere.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    You really want the people of Greece to suffer & pay for the consequences of a government that not only lied to it's people, but all of Europe.

    So that one day in a decade I can look at a map and there will still actually be a country called Greece.


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    #118
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    But they can't afford to pay their workers for 12 months let alone 14 months!

    Where is the lie?

    The lie was him mentioning extra.
    prinz wrote: »
    You don't think it crossed anyone's mind that maybe a country in deficit can't afford to pay public sector workers two extra months pay a year?

    Seriously, you've quoted the exact post & ignored him mention extra once already & now again.

    What does this extra imply? They are getting 14 months pay for the work done in 12 when they actually get 12 months pay for 12 months work.

    Do I need to quote the same quotes from the same sources?

    Also, wasn't it obvious he was implying that it should be taken away? If not;
    prinz wrote: »
    Yes, they need to cut the wage bill. I don't care if it's the "extra two months" or if it's July and April. Either way it has to be done


    so by sheer mis-information, or stupidity, or both he would have us take the money away from the people of Greece that they work for because of BS claims that they were getting extra.

    Please read my lines before replying to things.


  • Options
    #119
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    The lie was him mentioning extra.

    14 "monthly" payments per calendar year. Then yes there two extra monthly payments. It doesn't matter if the 14 payments add up to x and 12 add up to x, either way something has got to give and cuts have to be made.

    The fact is Greece cannot afford the wage bill it had. Cuts have to be made, the so-called holiday bonuses would be a good place to start. Bonuses btw per the link you yourself posted right above your point that they were not in fact bonuses.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    ...so by sheer mis-information, or stupidity, or both he would have us take the money away from the people of Greece that they work for because of BS claims that they were getting extra.

    Head
    > brick wall.


  • Options
    #120
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    prinz wrote: »
    No, they can keep getting paid the same. No skin off mine, but the country will bankrupt itself and no one will have any work then. Wages need to be cut.


    Finally we have it, after prying and pulling I've gotten you to acknowledge the BS you were spouting.

    Your personal opinion on where it will lead them is about as relevant as your knowledge of what 11 million people are thinking, (nonexistent yet I still have to put up with it after requesting evidence of these assertions you've been making on their behalf).

    I don't care if you were being offered credit cards weekly, it doesn't take a genius to realise they were being offered in ...1995, and 1996, and 1997, and 1998, and 1999, and 2000, and.... and 2010... That has no relevance to this discussion, although you are resorting to anything to try to appear as if you have some argument. Please find some more relevant issues as opposed to credit card scams. Next you'll be pulling out Nigerian 411 scams :rolleyes:

    Credit card scams don't instantly turn Ireland into "Rip-Off Ireland" either god, see how you take one thing and extrapolate to the max. It's absolutly ridiculous at this stage...

    About tax dodgers, I'm 100% with you on them being partly responsible, no question about it. But, until we see some credible numbers on why that caused so much devastation I'm holding of judgement & blanket assertions.
    Really, it's okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in. — Carl Sagan

    However, when they start recollecting the money from these tax dodgers in the future who knows how much it will help the economy, especially if speculation studies already indicate 30 Billion.

    And while holiday bonuses certainly sound like excess spending, they aren't necessarily.    The 14th salary works like this: Greek workers get their annual salary in roughly 14 installments. On top of 12 monthly payments, employees receive double their paychecks in December, right in time for Christmas consumerism. They also receive half of their monthly spending in the spring to shell out on goods for Easter. Then they get another half-salary boost in July, before their traditional summer vacation.
    But the 14th salary system isn't the problem with the Greek economy, says Elias Papaioannou, an expert on international economics at Dartmouth College, "it's just an alternative way to distribute."
    It's not even that alternative. Other EU countries use plans that are much the same. According to international salary guide website Just Landed, Belgium, Germany, France and Holland have similar holiday bonus-based payment systems that factor in to workers' annual salaries.

    http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/04/news/international/greece_pay.fortune/index.htm

    So, because the word holiday is mentioned you see it as a luxury & figure it should be stripped from workers after their government drove them into this hole.

    Again, you blanket assert every single Greek goes out shopping, money laundering etc... based on speculational studies & proceed to tar the whole country with one brush. It's still shocking how irrelevant your opinion is here seeing as there's nothing to base it on other than comments in an article which they themselves are ased on speculations. You don't know how to hold off on judging people do you?

    I don't think I've acknowledged this enough, the government lied to them & if the people knew *speculation alert* about these ill gotten blackmarket gains then the government must have too, and the police. Why didn't they stop this?


    You're right, it's also about burning your fellow workers alive while they sit at their desks and actually work

    Again, Protesting is not about throwing stones at police, even if some people devolve into that act it doesn't make it right.

     How do we hammer that little tidbit into your head, the emotional scars after your rebellious protesting days must be too deep...


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  • Options
    #121
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Finally we have it, after prying and pulling I've gotten you to acknowledge the BS you were spouting.

    Oh really? I am making the very same point I have since the first post I made.More in, less out makes for a viable Greece.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I don't care if you were being offered credit cards weekly, it doesn't take a genius to realise they were being offered in ...1995, and 1996, and 1997, and 1998, and 1999, and 2000, and.... and 2010... That has no relevance to this discussion, although you are resorting to anything to try to appear as if you have some argument. Please find some more relevant issues as opposed to credit card scams. Next you'll be pulling out Nigerian 411 scams :rolleyes:

    Credit card scams don't instantly turn Ireland into "Rip-Off Ireland" either god, see how you take one thing and extrapolate to the max. It's absolutly ridiculous at this stage...

    Who mentioned credit card scams? :confused: The point I was making was the pushing of cheap and ready credit. Anyone with half a brain could recognise that this will eventually have to be paid back. However we see thousands of people up to their eyeballs in personal and mortgage debt.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    About tax dodgers, I'm 100% with you on them being partly responsible, no question about it. But, until we see some credible numbers on why that caused so much devastation I'm holding of judgement & blanket assertions. However, when they start recollecting the money from these tax dodgers in the future who knows how much it will help the economy, especially if speculation studies already indicate 30 Billion....

    And these tax dodgers.... are in fact the same Greek people out on the streets protesting..
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Again, you blanket assert every single Greek goes out shopping, money laundering etc... based on speculational studies & proceed to tar the whole country with one brush. It's still shocking how irrelevant your opinion is here seeing as there's nothing to base it on other than comments in an article which they themselves are ased on speculations. You don't know how to hold off on judging people do you?

    Maybe some of them get their shopping delivered.. I don't know.
    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I don't think I've acknowledged this enough, the government lied to them & if the people knew *speculation alert* about these ill gotten blackmarket gains then the government must have too, and the police. Why didn't they stop this?

    :confused: Of course the people knew, everybody was in on it. The whole system was based on corruption and cash in hand etc. The black market isn't drugs and what not, the black market is also paying for goods and services in cash without receipts etc etc etc.


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