Why do Irish people not protest?

sponsoredwalk

I swear I knew you'd reply with this exact post! I knew by putting that particular sentence in I knew you'd come back with this diatribe so I just knew I had to get the exact sentence where I had read this ready.

In the early-mid 2000s, Greece's economy was strong and the government took advantage by running a large deficit. As the world economy cooled in the late 2000s, Greece was hit especially hard because its main industries—shipping and tourism—were especially sensitive to changes in the business cycle. As a result, the country's debt began to pile up rapidly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Greek_riots#Background

You seem to be full of twisting things to suit your notions;

prinz wrote: »

Their government played along and the Greek people were delighted.

It's just crazy how you would know something like that, I'm sure we'll be hearing some more philosophical speculation on what millions of people secretly do shortly...

I have a source for my opinion, plus some logic that the people of Greece are not in charge of running the economic future of their country, that is the job of the government

When the government fails to do one of the few things it's in power for, what are people supposed to do Accept it? Go out and clean up the mess they've created after we've been paying them to do this??

To Dogbert: I understand your point about going out to clean up the estate and it's an awesome thing of your council to do but what I'm saying here is that after we employ these people in high paying jobs to do a few things for us we have every right to be angry when they fail - as they continuously seem to do.

You can't complain about protesting and it acheiving nothing when in countries such as France it works and when this very countries history is based on protest, lest we forget...

prinz

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

You seem to be full of twisting things to suit your notions...

Vasia Veremi may be only 28, but as a hairdresser in Athens, she is keenly aware that, under a current law that treats her job as hazardous to her health, she has the right to retire with a full pension at age 50......
Perhaps not, but it is still difficult to explain to outsiders why the Greek government has identified at least 580 job categories deemed to be hazardous enough to merit retiring early — at age 50 for women and 55 for men.....As a consequence of decades of bargains struck between strong unions and weak governments, Greece has promised early retirement to about 700,000 employees, or 14 percent of its work force, giving it an average retirement age of 61, one of the lowest in Europe

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/business/global/12pension.html

The unions weren't too interested where the money was going to come to cover the cost of this into the future with an aging population. I don't seem to remember Greeks protesting about this.

The measures include severe cuts in Civil Service wages, with public servants losing their “13th and 14th” months’ salary and pension entitlements, a reduction of state benefits and tax increases on alcohol and tobacco to help cut the deficit.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article7112762.ece

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I have a source for my opinion, plus some logic that the people of Greece are not in charge of running the economic future of their country, that is the job of the government .

Is that the same government who up to now was happy to play along with appeasing the Greeks as the deficit mounted and mounted?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

When the government fails to do one of the few things it's in power for, what are people supposed to do Accept it? Go out and clean up the mess they've created after we've been paying them to do this??

They're just coming back to reality with a bang. Again could you point out where the people are being screwed over? Even the revised new retirement age is lower than it is/has been here, and you still think that's being screwed over? Why didn't the Greeks object before now? Did they think the gravy train could last forever?

Greece's economic output was €180bn (£128bn) in 2005 and is expected to rise to €194bn this year. The black economy is estimated at up to €60bn, according to Reuters.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/30/nicholaswatt.mainsection

The Greek authorities are revising the country's gross domestic product (GDP) after deciding that the black market should be included in the figures. Manolis Kontopyrakis, the head of the national statistics service, told Reuters: "The revised GDP will include some money from illegal activities, such as money from cigarette and drinks smuggling, prostitution and money laundering."

Perhaps if the Irish government decided to include the drugs and smuggling trade into our national figures we wouldn't so badly off either.

Are you really going to keep arguing that your average Greek on the street had no idea that this couldn't last forever? Authors of their own destruction.

dogbert27

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

You can't complain about protesting and it acheiving nothing when in countries such as France it works and when this very countries history is based on protest, lest we forget...

I don't consider kidnapping managers as a form of protest a protest that "works" or that is peaceful.

sponsoredwalk

dogbert27 wrote: »

I don't consider kidnapping managers as a form of protest a protest that "works" or that is peaceful.

Neither do I so don't you dare try to imply I would support something like that :mad:

prinz what I gather from that post is that you're partly trying to tell us that early retirement is the cause of this.

But Ireland, having a higher retirement age, has saved us from our economic woes luckily :rolleyes:

Who knew that the over 50 bracket had such a strranglehold on technology and job creation in those economically viable countries as to cause a whole country like Greece, with the lack of over 50's workers, to go into deep debt... Now that I've seen the sources that fuel this philosophy of yours & I must admit I find it highly selective at this stage...

Now, lets talk about something a bit more important;

First off, what does your quote;

The Greek authorities are revising the country's gross domestic product (GDP) after deciding that the black market should be included in the figures. Manolis Kontopyrakis, the head of the national statistics service, told Reuters: "The revised GDP will include some money from illegal activities, such as money from cigarette and drinks smuggling, prostitution and money laundering."

tell you about the government? Does this correlate with the fact that the Greek citizens are protesting against this kind of governance?


http://carnalnation.com/content/45737/898/greek-prostitutes-demand-legal-brothels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Greece#Prostitution_in_Greece

So, that the government sanctions prostitution but does not allow certain brothels would tend to alert most people that there is a bit of a problem there.

The government has every right to make money off of legalized prostitution but the fact that they make it so difficult for women to have sanitary working conditions would tend to make it harder for women to actually earn a living & would cause people smuggling & sex trade to skyrocket, don't you think??? Read how screwed up the situation is in the above links.

prinz wrote: »

Perhaps if the Irish government decided to include the drugs and smuggling trade into our national figures we wouldn't so badly off either.

No I don't doubt it.

prinz wrote: »

Are you really going to keep arguing that your average Greek on the street had no idea that this couldn't last forever? Authors of their own destruction.

The move raised eyebrows in Brussels because Athens famously used false statistics to meet the Maastricht criteria, thereby allowing it to join the euro.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/30/nicholaswatt.mainsection

I suppose the average Greek man on the street is to blame for this as well :rolleyes:

How most Irish people so apathetic to the ways of government as is sprinkled throughout this thread yet the Greek's seem to be ever so conscious of all the ins and outs of shady governance is a real mystery to me...

topper75

Next time you are on hols in Greece, start asking for receipts with your purchases. You could find some stiff resistance and begin to discover that it was Greek people screwing the govt in effect.

Many wish to avoid paying their dues, but they still want a public service ie having their cake and eating it.

prinz

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Neither do I so don't you dare try to imply I would support something like that :mad:

You just held France up as an example we should aspire to... and you accuse me of being selective. :rolleyes:

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

prinz what I gather from that post is that you're partly trying to tell us that early retirement is the cause of this. But Ireland, having a higher retirement age, has saved us from our economic woes luckily :rolleyes:

Ireland is climbing out of the hole we got in. Our economy is expected to continue growing into the future. We came close, but we're heading back towards saftey now. Maybe if we had burned down a few banks, gotten into a deeper mess that would have helped us more?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

... Now that I've seen the sources that fuel this philosophy of yours & I must admit I find it highly selective at this stage...

Why what am I selecting?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

...

tell you about the government? Does this correlate with the fact that the Greek citizens are protesting against this kind of governance?...

Who voted in the government? Who kept voting in the same weak governments who pandered to the unions and mob rule?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

...
The government has every right to make money off of legalized prostitution but the fact that they make it so difficult for women to have sanitary working conditions would tend to make it harder for women to actually earn a living & would cause people smuggling & sex trade to skyrocket, don't you think??? Read how screwed up the situation is in the above links....

Legalisation of prostitution aside it was the inclusion of black market figures into the official national statistics which is the issue. That was common knowledge. Did the people riot? Did the people throw out the government?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

...
I suppose the average Greek man on the street is to blame for this as well :rolleyes:...

Are you trying to say that ther average Greek man on the street had no idea that a quarter of total economic output up to a few years ago was blackmarket?

You don't think it crossed anyone's mind that maybe a country in deficit can't afford to pay public sector workers two extra months pay a year?

No one wondered where money was going to come from?

Fuhrer

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

It's just crazy how you would know something like that, I'm sure we'll be hearing some more philosophical speculation on what millions of people secretly do shortly...

No secret about it, where were the violent street demonstrations about unrealistic government spending and a retirement age that is absurdly young?


There wasnt any, now when the greek government try to change a few things like that they take to the street burning down buildings and murdering bankers.

dogbert27

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Now that I've seen the sources that fuel this philosophy of yours & I must admit I find it highly selective at this stage...

Pot calling kettle!:)

prinz

Fuhrer wrote: »

No secret about it, where were the violent street demonstrations about unrealistic government spending and a retirement age that is absurdly young?

No, the government were forcing them to retire early, forcing extra salary payments, forcing them to work on the blackmarket and tax dodge on a grand scale.

The Greeks never went looking for it, it was all part of a grand conspiracy to screw the Greek people over, and they're still doing it. It must have all come as a massive shock to Joe Papadopolous.

conorhal

Firstly, people are very angry, but it's a cold fury rather than the heated passion that we are seeing on the streets of Athens.
Instead of a mass protest that's aimless and violent, I think that the Irish people have chosen to wait in the long grass for their politicians, for the inevitable general election to exact our revenge. In the meantime the public are happy to deliver the occasional swift kicking to the government, in quite a directed manner over pensions and expenses etc., just to remind them that they're useless bastards soon for a short drop. This targeted manner of exacting revenge seems more pragmatic and constructive then rioting in the streets to me, it tends to focus the mind of the government at bit more.

The second reason is that your average Greek teacher was earning 1,200 a month and they have seen their average salary drop to 900 euro. Here the average teacher earns about 4,000 a month. Yes they have taken a pay cut, but a cut that is proportionately a hell of a lot less then the Greeks have taken, so I'd imagine that there are many public servants on this island looking at the Greek situation and thinking, "well lads lets not rock the boat too much, things are bad, but they could get a lot worse if we were to push the situation to the point of an IMF intervention”. Of course they’re right, only in Ireland could the Croke Park agreement be seen as a bad deal for the unions.
In short, people are less angry here because they may have taken cuts, but not a major drop in their standard of living, unless that cut means that you have ended up on the dole, but even then our social welfare system is one of the most generous in Europe. The Greeks IMO are merely ‘proportionately’ more angry. We have much less reason to be so.

The third reason is that the Irish are perhaps simply a more pragmatic people than the Greeks. A substantial chunk of Greek GDP is tourism based, I personally know two people that have cancelled plans for a summer holiday in Greece, not because of the violence, but because of the uncertainty. There is just no guarantee that a general strike wouldn't close the airport in Athens for example. Thus the Greeks are actively destroying the very industry that employs a full fifth of their population. That's hardly helping matters.
These protests are achieving very little, but costing quite a lot, be it in tourist revenue or increeced borrowing costs. I don’t think many here would have to stomach to go down that road, it only leads to Armageddon anyway, and while I get that people are angry, I think that they also recognize that undirected anger for the sake of venting a bit of bile achieves nothing and in the end only cuts off your nose to spite your face. It’s best that we start looking at a way out of the crisis and deal with those to blame in good time.

sponsoredwalk

prinz wrote: »

You just held France up as an example we should aspire to... and you accuse me of being selective. :rolleyes:

And them black rights activists, jeesh when people started dying didn't their cause become instantly foolish too...

prinz wrote: »

Ireland is climbing out of the hole we got in. Our economy is expected to continue growing into the future. We came close, but we're heading back towards saftey now. Maybe if we had burned down a few banks, gotten into a deeper mess that would have helped us more?

It's amazing, again, how you stoop to the lowest common denominator to base your views on, just as in the above comment.

Didn't I just say I disagree with it, I think I also said something against this in my first post...

How do I convince you all that I disagree with violence of any kind and that that is not what protest is about...

which was the first thing I said in this thread ffs...

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/eur/119082.htm

Why not read up on your claims & see how protesters are treated by the police in Greece before spouting diatribes.

Yes, a minority in protests always devolve into havoc, but in a lot of cases they can be stopped quickly & not ruin a protest. Wikipedia is there for you to find the quotes where I read this info, a helpful nudge to researching claims on this particular topic.

prinz wrote: »

Why what am I selecting?

1: That the Greek policy on retirement played such a huge factor in their current economic climate.

It doesn't matter that Ireland has a higher age of retirement but we are still in a mess,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement#Retirement_in_specific_countries
A simple google would have brought your view into question

http://topforeignstocks.com/2010/02/09/a-review-of-retirement-age-in-oecd-countries
this link is interesting in that it agrees with what you say in that it says people retire early and collect big pensions yet if we look at the actual data on the page we see that Greece is in the middle of the chart, well above other countries.
Mexico isn't exaclty the richest country in the world either & look at the chart to see how your logic works there .
A better question would be to look at the pension situation in Greece, but I wouldn't trust one comment in this article to say the entire country failed because people get big pensions.

2: That some how the unions maliciously ignored this major factor to suit their own agenda.

When the job of a union is about protecting workers, not running the country...

prinz wrote: »

Who voted in the government? Who kept voting in the same weak governments who pandered to the unions and mob rule?

Legalisation of prostitution aside it was the inclusion of black market figures into the official national statistics which is the issue. That was common knowledge. Did the people riot? Did the people throw out the government?

I don't know if they rioted over this point. I'm not Greek

It's screwed up as **** to do that with their figures, as with lying about the euro & maybe the people should protest over their government including those figures. You'll notice that in most countries though we don't riot over everything, just those things that affect everyone for the worse.

It's usually the job of politicians, intelligentsia & lawyers to prosecute & condemn the government when they lie about technical details.

prinz wrote: »

You don't think it crossed anyone's mind that maybe a country in deficit can't afford to pay public sector workers two extra months pay a year?

No one wondered where money was going to come from?

I'm absolutely amazed that you have provided no links on this hot tamali of a topic. I could only be pushed to think you weren't researching your opinions & were just fuming hot air & looking for support from others in this witch-hunt.

Greece operates on a 14-payment system, as do many other EU nations. An annual salary is divided into 12 regular monthly payments, two half payments at Easter and in summer composing the 13th salary, and one full month payment at Christmas, which is the 14th salary. They are called “bonuses” or “doro” (gift) but are not extra salaries. They are part of the normal taxable salary and not based on performance or merit.

http://livingingreece.gr/2007/07/29/examples-of-jobs-and-salaries-in-athens/

I could only be inclined to believe you listen to sensationalist press that uses mis-information on people like you to agree with government interfering in peoples lives & reducing their wages some more;

But the 14th salary system isn't the problem with the Greek economy, says Elias Papaioannou, an expert on international economics at Dartmouth College, "it's just an alternative way to distribute."
It's not even that alternative. Other EU countries use plans that are much the same. According to international salary guide website Just Landed, Belgium, Germany, France and Holland have similar holiday bonus-based payment systems that factor in to workers' annual salaries.
There is a difference between Greece's 14th salary system and special allowances given to some government employees -- the latter helped bankrupt the Greek economy. But many government employees don't have disproportionately high salaries, says Papaioannou. Greek families plan their spending around the 14th salary, and they have for a long time.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/04/news/international/greece_pay.fortune/index.htm

prinz et al., how are we to believe you when you keep spreading unresearched mis-information?

dogbert27

conorhal wrote: »

These protests are achieving very little, but costing a lot.

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I believe the Irish people know that a protest will hit the economy more than what the protest will actually achieve.

What did the teacher strikes achieve other than inconveniencing parents?

What the the Quinn Insurance strikers achieve with Trucks driving down the canals other than cause an incovenience to traffic?

We're a small country in an open economy. We rode the highs now we're suffering the lows.

prinz

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/eur/119082.htm
Why not read up on your claims & see how protesters are treated by the police in Greece before spouting diatribes.

Which section refers to political protests?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

1: That the Greek policy on retirement played such a huge factor in their current economic climate..

A country with an aging population and serious money problems cannot afford such generous retirement conditions. Simple. No money. The Greek people knew there was no money, and they also knew that they enjoyed over generous conditions. Just where was the government 'screwing' in that?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

2: That some how the unions maliciously ignored this major factor to suit their own agenda.When the job of a union is about protecting workers, not running the country...

The job of a union is also to ensure that the country is economically viable going forward. It's of no benefit to the workers or the union if the country goes bust trying to meet their expectations.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

It's screwed up as **** to do that with their figures, as with lying about the euro & maybe the people should protest over their government including those figures. You'll notice that in most countries though we don't riot over everything, just those things that affect everyone for the worse....

Yes it's affecting them now, precisely because they didn't give a second thought to what all those things above would lead to. They were happy to reap all the benefits without contributing anything, and now for some reason with the country verging on bankruptcy.. they riot again because they don't fancy getting the country out of the mess it's in?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

It's usually the job of politicians, intelligentsia & lawyers to prosecute & condemn the government when they lie about technical details.....

If so why are you on this thread advocating public protest?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I'm absolutely amazed that you have provided no links on this hot tamali of a topic......

Again, how can a country with no money keep paying their staff over the odds? It's not about what other countries do or don't do. Greece is out of funds.... they need to act, cut spending etc etc. There's no point in rioting against that. It has to be done or the country will have failed.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

prinz et al., how are we to believe you when you keep spreading unresearched mis-information?

Such as? What 'misinformation' have I spread?

sponsoredwalk

dogbert27 wrote: »

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I believe the Irish people know that a protest will hit the economy more than what the protest will actually achieve.

What did the teacher strikes achieve other than inconveniencing parents?

What the the Quinn Insurance strikers achieve with Trucks driving down the canals other than cause an incovenience to traffic?

We're a small country in an open economy. We rode the highs now we're suffering the lows.

http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/129036-eirigi-announce-protest-anglo-irish-bank-2pm-15th-may-15.html

http://www.hs.facebook.com/pages/Blasphemy-Law-Protest-Walk-Ireland/120425947973155?v=info

http://irishtaxi.org/?p=599

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0429/breaking41.html

A national demonstration against bank bailouts is to take place at the Dáil on Tuesday May 11th.

You obviously are very ignorant of how much is going on around you.

More mis-information & half-cocked opinions...

prinz

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

You obviously are very ignorant of how much is going on around you.
More mis-information & half-cocked opinions...

We'll see how many actually bother to turn up

Fuhrer

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

You obviously are very ignorant of how much is going on around you.

More mis-information & half-cocked opinions...

Obviously it just seems that way when hes arguing with you, as you seem to be able to see into the future.

sponsoredwalk

prinz how can I argue with a response so lacking in detail like that?

You have whitewashed over a lot there & continued with half-cocked opinions.

You keep offering us your opinion;

"the greek people knew there was no money, and they also knew that they enjoyed over generous conditions."

What kind of a linguistic contradiction is that?:eek:

And you offer that as a response to researched evidence :eek:

You need to seriously ask yourself are you basing your opinions on your feelings or facts because you've ignored all the facts & figures in my links.

You simply must not be able to have a sophisticated conversation about the evidence, you are just trying to win some battle, as this last comment of yours clearly shows. Also, I am aware you're not some kid who's spamming but are old enough to have completed to college so that is especially scary how you ignore the facts.

Not once have you conceded, not once. I actually have conceded where I thought fit, if you read anything I actually wrote, but this forum must be about screaming at the top of your lungs your frustration.

A key thing any unbiased reader will notice is how you refute facts & figures with your opinion.

Shapey Fiend

I went to the Call For A General Election protest in Galway on Saturday with a friend. Nobody else turned up.

The Facebook page only has 4k fans so I don't think people are that angry with the government yet for some reason.

danman

dogbert27 wrote: »

We're a small country in an open economy. We rode the highs now we're suffering the lows..

I think, above all, the majority of the country believe this statement.
There, in one sentence, is the reason why there isn't protest in this country.

The most sensible post I've ever seen on boards.

JustinDee

Shapey Fiend wrote: »

I went to the Call For A General Election protest in Galway on Saturday with a friend. Nobody else turned up

Thats because Irish people tend to be lazy and apathetic when it comes to political matters hence the p*ss poor electoral turnouts and the swathes of hypocritical non-voters sitting on keysters whingeing about the government their inactivity ensured got into power.
Wanting something for nothing is a whole lot different to earning it.

prinz

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

"the greek people knew there was no money, and they also knew that they enjoyed over generous conditions."What kind of a linguistic contradiction is that?:eek: And you offer that as a response to researched evidence :eek:

Maybe you need to learn what a contradiction is? I have provided 'researched evidence' already.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

You simply must not be able to have a sophisticated conversation about the evidence, you are just trying to win some battle, as this last comment of yours clearly shows.

Win some battle? Nope. I would think the actual attendance says a lot more about the mood of the people than the planned protests of people who don't actually have a clue what they're on about, and need to come up with ever more inventive titles to hide their true identity.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Not once have you conceded, not once..

What should I concede?

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

A key thing any unbiased reader will notice is how you refute facts & figures with your opinion.

I have already provided facts and figures. Any more is just repeating myself.

Fad

Because we're not French?

sponsoredwalk

danman wrote: »

dogbert27 wrote: »

We're a small country in an open economy. We rode the highs now we're suffering the lows.

I think, above all, the majority of the country believe this statement.
There, in one sentence, is the reason why there isn't protest in this country.

The most sensible post I've ever seen on boards.

So I think we have two people that ignore links to facts on this page so far;

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/129036-eirigi-announce-protest-anglo-irish-bank-2pm-15th-may-15.html

http://www.hs.facebook.com/pages/Blasphemy-Law-Protest-Walk-Ireland/120425947973155?v=info

http://irishtaxi.org/?p=599

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0429/breaking41.html

MaceFace

Two main reasons:

1. We have had a long period of industrial peace.
2. There are no leaders that unite us.

prinz

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

So I think we have two people that ignore links to facts on this page so far;

Again, the turnout is far more important than the fact that someone has called a 'protest'. Calling for a protest is irrelevant if nobody turns up.

Butch Cassidy

We Want Jobs and Public Services
Tuesday 11th May
Assemble 7.30 Garden of Remembrance, Parnell Square Dublin

Speakers:
• Fintan O'Toole (Journalist)
• john Kidd (SIPTU Firefighters)
• Janette Byrne (Patients Together)
• Walter Cullen (Unite trade union)
• John Bisset (Canal Communities Project)
• Professor Kathleen Lynch (Equality Studies Centre UCD)
• Siobhan O ’Donoghue (Director of the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland)

sponsoredwalk

prinz the contradiction here is of your claims that the 14 month payment system in Greece was contributing to their downfall along with the elderly epidemic of retirement you espoused.

There's no arguing with you with facts when you ignore the links I gave & still go on giving your opinion.

I came here for an intelligent discussion & I only find people ignoring reality to vent their frustration at the other guy.

Enjoy the misinformation & beliefs removed from reality, if you're too afraid to engage the facts in order to feel good holding onto pseudo-rational sounding claims that get loads of people to agree in a big orgy of ignorance then go ahead.

sponsoredwalk

prinz wrote: »

Again, the turnout is far more important than the fact that someone has called a 'protest'. Calling for a protest is irrelevant if nobody turns up.

classic

ednwireland

conorhal wrote: »

Instead of a mass protest that's aimless and violent, I think that the Irish people have chosen to wait in the long grass for their politicians, we are waiting for the inevitable general election to exact our revenge,

when they'll pretty much vote FF again because enda's too wooden, too ginger or something

paky

duffflash wrote: »

Why are we so afraid of showing the government and the EU how we feel?

Because the Irish have a lazy mentality. They'd rather put up with something than do something about it.