Dublin Bus Network Review

Conway635

miller50841 wrote: »

Hi went onto etenders and cant see any buses or that was just wondering what they are selling for

Whenever Dublin Bus are disposing of vehicles they advertise them on eTenders, there is a deadline for people to put in bids, usually a month or so.

Most recent sale (deadline already passed) is here:

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=JUN348635

Basically just keep an eye on eTenders, you see all sorts of stuff coming up, a small amount of the tenders are used equipment for sale, but mostly it is various bodies looking for work or good or services to be delivered.

For example the NTA is currently tendering for operators to run the bus service between Port Laois and Urlingford as a replacement for the service discontinued by BE.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=AUG372495&catID=22

C635

A2000

Waitin in oconnell st for a westbound 40. Missed one at 19.00 and next one is 20.04. Rang central control who confirmed that 30-40 buses are off the road due to drivers not turning up for work. After 20.04 next bus is 20.45 meaning there were only 2 buses 19.00 to 20.45 on late nite shopping thursday. Drivrers missing from both cony rd and harristown. Queue is huge. Absolute disgrace that such a major route should have such big gaps. Disciplinaries all round in the morning is in order.

paddyland

A2000 wrote: »

Waitin in oconnell st for a westbound 40. Missed one at 19.00 and next one is 20.04. Rang central control who confirmed that 30-40 buses are off the road due to drivers not turning up for work. After 20.04 next bus is 20.45 meaning there were only 2 buses 19.00 to 20.45 on late nite shopping thursday. Drivrers missing from both cony rd and harristown. Queue is huge. Absolute disgrace that such a major route should have such big gaps. Disciplinaries all round in the morning is in order.

Spare a thought for the poor driver who is working in that gap, and the abuse he is going to take...

The_Wrecker

Were 85 drivers short between all depots according to the union information boards.

miller50841

A2000 wrote: »

Waitin in oconnell st for a westbound 40. Missed one at 19.00 and next one is 20.04. Rang central control who confirmed that 30-40 buses are off the road due to drivers not turning up for work. After 20.04 next bus is 20.45 meaning there were only 2 buses 19.00 to 20.45 on late nite shopping thursday. Drivrers missing from both cony rd and harristown. Queue is huge. Absolute disgrace that such a major route should have such big gaps. Disciplinaries all round in the morning is in order.

Thats crap they don't have enough drivers they just gave you that excuse so they dont look bad the inspectors I mean

A2000

paddyland wrote: »

A2000 wrote: »

Waitin in oconnell st for a westbound 40. Missed one at 19.00 and next one is 20.04. Rang central control who confirmed that 30-40 buses are off the road due to drivers not turning up for work. After 20.04 next bus is 20.45 meaning there were only 2 buses 19.00 to 20.45 on late nite shopping thursday. Drivrers missing from both cony rd and harristown. Queue is huge. Absolute disgrace that such a major route should have such big gaps. Disciplinaries all round in the morning is in order.

Spare a thought for the poor driver who is working in that gap, and the abuse he is going to take..



Pity the drivers colleagues did not spare that same thought.

A2000

miller50841 wrote: »

A2000 wrote: »

Waitin in oconnell st for a westbound 40. Missed one at 19.00 and next one is 20.04. Rang central control who confirmed that 30-40 buses are off the road due to drivers not turning up for work. After 20.04 next bus is 20.45 meaning there were only 2 buses 19.00 to 20.45 on late nite shopping thursday. Drivrers missing from both cony rd and harristown. Queue is huge. Absolute disgrace that such a major route should have such big gaps. Disciplinaries all round in the morning is in order.

Thats crap they don't have enough drivers they just gave you that excuse so they dont look bad the inspectors I mean



85 drivers down.plus those who didnt report for work today. Nothing to do with a major fight on the telly of course. If it were down to driver shortages it would happen every day. The service is bad but not THAT bad.

dfx-

A2000 wrote: »

Waitin in oconnell st for a westbound 40. Missed one at 19.00 and next one is 20.04. Rang central control who confirmed that 30-40 buses are off the road due to drivers not turning up for work. After 20.04 next bus is 20.45 meaning there were only 2 buses 19.00 to 20.45 on late nite shopping thursday. Drivrers missing from both cony rd and harristown. Queue is huge. Absolute disgrace that such a major route should have such big gaps. Disciplinaries all round in the morning is in order.

I was coming inbound at Christchurch at 8.20pm. I saw AX501 operating a 40 headed to Liffey Valley - full to standing upstairs. This post makes sense of that. I hope anyone trying to get it on Thomas St didn't have to wait another hour...

I guess this is where the inter-garage operations/communications is under scrutiny. The 40 seems to operate in batches from either garage as opposed to the 13.

There's say 10 from C/Rd all after each other and then 10 from Harristown all together. So if one garage is suffering from a lack of drivers, it creates a huge hole.

markpb

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Were 85 drivers short between all depots according to the union information boards.

How many are they normally short?

LXFlyer

I can only assume this excessive shortage is due to drivers being on annual leave?

It still is disgraceful and should not be happening. 60 minute gaps in service on core routes are totally unacceptable.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I can only assume this excessive shortage is due to drivers being on annual leave?

Did you see the news yesterday or the papers today?

LXFlyer

This has nothing to do with the fight yesterday - it has been an ongoing issue over recent weeks.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

This has nothing to do with the fight yesterday - it has been an ongoing issue over recent weeks.

How are you so sure?

LXFlyer

Because several departures that I've gone for in recent weeks at various times through the day have been cancelled due to staff shortages. I took the time to ask.

A2000

lxflyer wrote: »

Because several departures that I've gone for in recent weeks at various times through the day have been cancelled due to staff shortages. I took the time to ask.


Harristown confirmed on the phone last night that more than 30 drivers did not report for duty yesterday between thier depot and conygnham road so has everything to do with the fight. Its always happening around major events. Doesnt happen on the luas as it would not be tolerated.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Because several departures that I've gone for in recent weeks at various times through the day have been cancelled due to staff shortages. I took the time to ask.

Problems in recent weeks does not preclude last nights problems being partly or mostly as a result of the fight.

Or are you trying to say the staff shortages over the last few weeks were anywhere near 85 drivers?

What you're saying just does not fit with what others have said:

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Were 85 drivers short between all depots according to the union information boards.

A2000 wrote: »

Waitin in oconnell st for a westbound 40. Missed one at 19.00 and next one is 20.04. Rang central control who confirmed that 30-40 buses are off the road due to drivers not turning up for work. After 20.04 next bus is 20.45 meaning there were only 2 buses 19.00 to 20.45 on late nite shopping thursday. Drivrers missing from both cony rd and harristown. Queue is huge. Absolute disgrace that such a major route should have such big gaps. Disciplinaries all round in the morning is in order.

LXFlyer

It's quite possible over 9 depots. It may have been exaserbated last night but there is an underlying problem.

I've been left on several occasions due to that problem which appears to be down to inadequate numbers to cover for annual leave. Reading the DB twitter/FB pages would suggest to me it's happening quite a lot.

cloud493

Anyone know when the 42 will start going through seabury all the time?

devnull

Maybe I'm putting this too simply, but if that was the case then rather than there not being enough people to cover annual leave, it is more the case that too many people are being allowed on leave at any one time?

In which case it's down to whoever is approving annual leave requests needs to approve less and ensure so many staff are not roster ed of at any one time?

The_Wrecker

devnull wrote: »

Maybe I'm putting this too simply, but if that was the case then rather than there not being enough people to cover annual leave, it is more the case that too many people are being allowed on leave at any one time?

In which case it's down to whoever is approving annual leave requests needs to approve less and ensure so many staff are not roster ed of at any one time?

They let too many old lads go on the last round of lumps. At this stage there are multiple duties uncovered for tomorrow between Db1/2. There are drivers willing to do them, but cant do if they worked last Tuesday (48hr / 7day act).

The_Wrecker

devnull wrote: »

In which case it's down to whoever is approving annual leave requests needs to approve less and ensure so many staff are not roster ed of at any one time?

The annual leave is printed out every Christmas the prior year, approx 8-10 drivers per week allocated leave per season.

AlekSmart

The_Wrecker wrote: »

They let too many old lads go on the last round of lumps. At this stage there are multiple duties uncovered for tomorrow between Db1/2. There are drivers willing to do them, but cant do if they worked last Tuesday (48hr / 7day act).

One of the reasons,in fact the prime reason which saw "mobile Workers" receive an eight year derogation from the Working Time Directive was the severe difficulties encountered in applying it's strictures to shift-workers.

The Working Time Directive remains a highly complex piece of work,devised by a Mon-Fri 9-5 EU civil-servant and ideal for applications which work the same hours.

It's application across the Public Transport arena EU wide has caused,and continues to cause,significant problems in an industry traditionally dependant upon overtime to provide the flexibility necessary for what amounts to virtually 24-7-365 operations.

There is currently something of a backlash developing amongst EU Coach Operators,with,unusually,support from their staff,many of whom have seen earnings capacity reduced by up to 30% overnight.

The level of implimentation of the WTD adopted by the Irish Government has in effect considerably worsened the day to day working conditions of many thousands of Shift Workers across many industries.

One particularly significant problem is the new illegality of most duty-swaps,which were traditionally the means utilised by shift-workers to allow a reasoanable work-life balance to be maintained.

The simple duty-swap allowed two like minded staff to do a mutually agreed swap which saw the service maintained,with both duties covered,two satisfied staff members,and no additional cost for the employer.

Now,however,post WTD most of these swaps cannot occur as one or both of the staff members would then fall foul of minimum daily rest provisions.

It should be noted that the WTD requirements are additional to Drivers hours regulations which were prefectly suited to the nature of shift-work to begin with....until somebody in Pat Cox's office had a brainwave....:(

KD345

Interesting post Alek. So am I correct to say Dublin Bus have been relying on overtime and driver swaps to cover everyday duties?

If so, surely that's a pretty inefficient way to run a company. Was there mention a while ago how the company planned to hire part time drivers? This would make sense considering the shortage.

In the meantime, shouldn't Dublin Bus be providing daily updates to passengers detailing which services will not be operating? They have the information and tools to communicate with passengers.

Their replies on Facebook and Twitter to passengers regularly mention how there was no driver to operate the service, but you can't help wonder why they wouldn't publish this information on the web at the start of the day rather than have passengers wait for a departure which has been cancelled.

Conway635

KD345 wrote: »

Interesting post Alek. So am I correct to say Dublin Bus have been relying on overtime and driver swaps to cover everyday duties?

If so, surely that's a pretty inefficient way to run a company.

I've worked in bus operators that are part of the TFL system in London, and they operate in a similar manner.

With a very small operation it is possible to be fairly rigid, once you a large number of routes/drivers this shift-swapping and overtime flexibility is really the essential oil that lubricates the system to keep it functioning correctly, allowing services to be operated while drivers can swap shifts or cover other drivers shifts to allow flexibility for work-life balance. In any system where people are not on a rigid Mon-Fri 9-5 the ability to shift swap is essential to allow drivers to pick and choose which bits of their normal family and social lives they can attend and which bits they will miss.

The imposition of the Working Time Directive, on top of the existing Driver's Hours legislation, creates complication of a level not experienced in other shift-based jobs, and has been roundly condemmed by employers and workers alike throughout the transport industry in the UK, large and small operators.

Whereas drivers hours legislation is safety related, and is widely accepted as a good thing, the WTD is aimed at preventing employees from being oppressed and forced to work long hours.

However by taking away the drivers freedom to make their own choice I would argue that it actually represses them economically, while harming the services operationally.

And yes, it would be theoretically possible to hire so many drivers that no overtime was ever needed, and that people had to work the antisocial hours shifts more rarely, but that would be far more expensive than the current system.

C635

The_Wrecker

KD345 wrote: »

Their replies on Facebook and Twitter to passengers regularly mention how there was no driver to operate the service, but you can't help wonder why they wouldn't publish this information on the web at the start of the day rather than have passengers wait for a departure which has been cancelled.

Its difficult to advertise them. From 10am onwards vacant duties/part duties are announced over the radio. Different drivers start and finish and break at various times. So it could be well into afternoon before the message has got to all bodies available.

What happened the other day with the Katie match ~ no fish were biting!

miller50841

Driver's are human I'm afraid to say and for this reason some do be sick or could have something happen in the family and not be able to make it to work.

I have a family member in the job and they tell me with all the cuts and the driving hours the job is harder to do as they end up been so tired the duties are all over the place and going from late to early in the one week.

I do not believe that driver's did not turn up on that huge scale there are procedures in the company and punishment for the amount of sick days one takes.

There are no way enough driver's to cover all routes and thats even with the cuts to routes and journeys a bus takes.

AlekSmart

Conway635 wrote: »

I've worked in bus operators that are part of the TFL system in London, and they operate in a similar manner.

With a very small operation it is possible to be fairly rigid, once you a large number of routes/drivers this shift-swapping and overtime flexibility is really the essential oil that lubricates the system to keep it functioning correctly, allowing services to be operated while drivers can swap shifts or cover other drivers shifts to allow flexibility for work-life balance. In any system where people are not on a rigid Mon-Fri 9-5 the ability to shift swap is essential to allow drivers to pick and choose which bits of their normal family and social lives they can attend and which bits they will miss.

The imposition of the Working Time Directive, on top of the existing Driver's Hours legislation, creates complication of a level not experienced in other shift-based jobs, and has been roundly condemmed by employers and workers alike throughout the transport industry in the UK, large and small operators.

Whereas drivers hours legislation is safety related, and is widely accepted as a good thing, the WTD is aimed at preventing employees from being oppressed and forced to work long hours.

However by taking away the drivers freedom to make their own choice I would argue that it actually represses them economically, while harming the services operationally.

And yes, it would be theoretically possible to hire so many drivers that no overtime was ever needed, and that people had to work the antisocial hours shifts more rarely, but that would be far more expensive than the current system.

C635

An excellent post.

It really needs to be appreciated that the current interpretation of the Working Time Directive as transposed into Irish leglislation is draconian in terms of Shift-Workers.

Up until 2010,most UK Operators simply ignored the thing,using a negotiated opt-out clause whereby an employee could sign a legal form opting to work under UK domestic rules.

In many UK operations this became an integral part of the recruitment process,on the same level as producing a driving licence at the interview.

As Conway635 posts,the added stress placed on Managers,Administrators,Schedulers etc has substantially effected their working conditions also,but that is of no concern to the "Pat Cox" Directorate,as their WTD function has been sucesfull...the fall-out is some other directorate's problem.

Use of Temporary/Part-Time staff is actually somewhat problematical in itself for an employer,as they have then to attempt to ensure the PT worker has complied with the various WTA rules,whilst having no actual means of verifying that other than a PT workers word.

This then involves the various Government Agencies involved in devising a means of monitoring individuals during their own private time to ensure compliance with the WTA.....a true MINEFIELD....:eek:

With the current DSP situation allowing for c. 20 hours weekly work whilst maintaining allowance entitlement,the situation becomes even more complex in administration terms.

The immediate,simple response,if anybody bothered to take an interest would be to revise the Daily and Weekly rest requirements to allow for the instant flexibility which continuous process shift-working requires.

However,since few Politicians and even less Senior Civil Servants actually have to present for work on a 24/7/365 basis then it's unlikely to be concentrating their minds anytime soon ?

The important thing to realise is the WTD issue is a Europe wide one,and becoming more so as the EU Commission starts looking for evidence that its being implimented and monitored EU wide....not always the case in some significant EU member states.....;)

KD345

With the advances in central control, web and social media, if there are a few drivers missing from a route surely it would be possible to inform passengers eg. "delays expected on route 40 until 10pm", or something similar.

In the example above, it was known there were gaps of an hour on the 40, yet no effort was made to communicate this to passengers. It just takes a couple of seconds to send a tweet.

AlekSmart

KD345 wrote: »

With the advances in central control, web and social media, if there are a few drivers missing from a route surely it would be possible to inform passengers eg. "delays expected on route 40 until 10pm", or something similar.

In the example above, it was known there were gaps of an hour on the 40, yet no effort was made to communicate this to passengers. It just takes a couple of seconds to send a tweet.

Slightly OT,but it does appear that the RTPI system operationally is throwing up some issues which need urgent attention.

Typically,a journey is curtailed,Driver operates with City Centre showing on Destination and Ticket Machine programmed appropriately.

Controller performs the necessary inputs to the system.

The curtailment appears on the various Mobile Apps,BUT fails to appear on the Street Infrastructure,with predictable results.

It would appear that the decision to allocate the On-Street infrastructure to a seperate agency may be not quite as operationally positive as envisaged ??

lucernarian

AlekSmart wrote: »

Slightly OT,but it does appear that the RTPI system operationally is throwing up some issues which need urgent attention.

Typically,a journey is curtailed,Driver operates with City Centre showing on Destination and Ticket Machine programmed appropriately.

Controller performs the necessary inputs to the system.

The curtailment appears on the various Mobile Apps,BUT fails to appear on the Street Infrastructure,with predictable results.

It would appear that the decision to allocate the On-Street infrastructure to a seperate agency may be not quite as operationally positive as envisaged ??

This is true, if a driver is not able to come in for a handover especially, then the bus would normally go in "special" or city centre and then head back to the garage but RTPI poles further down along the route at D'Olier St. or College Green would still show those services as still operational and due in whatever minutes.

Also when there diversions in place for protests or parades etc. in the city centre, routes often still show up on RTPI poles in the affected areas. Meaning people stay there in the expectation of a bus that won't show up.