Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Stev_o

Deleted User wrote: »

Butler >> Ruddock 2 years ago.

What's changed?

Player development at Leinster is a different world than at Munster it seems. Ruddock may have been captain, but Butler was the standout backrower of that 6N winning team.

Its for this reason that I think that Ruddock would have no interest in going to Munster, they seem to have stunted Butler's progression for one thing!

Id be tempted to say that Ruddock's size is attributed from having a dad who was a top coach who obviously brought him up on the right path to get that size.

Butler while talented seems a bit arrogant (the whole contract fiasco) so i wouldn't be half surprised that his lack size could be contributed to his own ego.

CatFromHue

Stev_o wrote: »

Id be tempted to say that Ruddock's size is attributed from having a dad who was a top coach who obviously brought him up on the right path to get that size.

also his dad isnt exactly a shrimp either

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Butler has the skills but none of the strength. Simple as, really. Ruddock and Dom Ryan are very powerful guys.

Skillswise, Peter O'Mahony and Paddy Butler are up there with any young backrower in Ireland but they don't have the power, and it remains to be seen if they can develop it.

Matt Williams said it takes years to develop for top level rugby. Munsters players do take a long time to bulk up but also start doing gym work later.

POM still needs to bulk up a bit but he is powerful and has good stamina. I'd say POM will end up at 6 or 7 while Butler looks a typical 8.

Stev_o wrote: »

Id be tempted to say that Ruddock's size is attributed from having a dad who was a top coach who obviously brought him up on the right path to get that size.

Looking at the Irish U20's, they were smaller than most teams in terms of bulking up. The Welsh and English academies are different and they pick players younger and start them on weights years before Irish players start them.

steve_o wrote:

Butler while talented seems a bit arrogant (the whole contract fiasco) so i wouldn't be half surprised that his lack size could be contributed to his own ego.

He was right about the contract and I'd say, after his performances last season for the U20's, there was plenty of interest in him.

Ok, ignore Ruddock because he actually has a serious frame to work with. Dominic Ryan and Paddy Butler are excellent comparisons.

Why has Dominic Ryan overtaken Butler and left him for dead in terms of growth and progress?
Can we attribute his success to the work that goes on at the Leinster Academy? (most definitely)
Can we in turn attribute Butler's lack of progress to the work that goes on at the Munster Academy? (If A=>B is true, then not A=>not B is also true - this is logic).

This is the point I'm trying to make here. There's a gulf in the difference between how players in one team are brought forward compared to players in another. In terms of conditioning, gametime and fundamentally success.

The point I was trying to make was that Ruddock, who's come through arguably the best Academy in the NH, would probably be more tempted up North at Ulster, where similar success and trust in youth has been shown, than he would be at Munster.

wonton

Okay I cant find the videos thread but this vid needs to be posted, heaslips parts are just brilliant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUQ2Wt1mSKg

pity we didnt get them playing together in the six nations, but we would have needed sob at 7 for ferris to come in and he plays so good at six him self.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

(If A=>B is true, then not A=>not B is also true - this is logic).

Woefully off-topic as I know nothing about Butler, but that's not true (at least not mathematically speaking).

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Woefully off-topic as I know nothing about Butler, but that's not true (at least not mathematically speaking).

oops, correct, not B => not A.

edit: nope, was right the first time! If A implies B, then Not A implies Not B.

lologram

Deleted User wrote: »

oops, correct, not B => not A.

edit: nope, was right the first time! If A implies B, then Not A implies Not B.

Nah it's actually A => B equivalent to not B => not A. You were right the 2nd of 3 attempts

By the by, I agree with what's being said about Leinster's academy being the difference in progression of U20's players. I think there's also a significantly different mindset between the two provinces regarding their youngsters. Leinster young players are rewarded with HC caps on merit, (Ryan and Ruddock, O'Malley).

Undeniably talented Munster youngsters spend significant portions of their careers in the shadow of older players, and know they won't get introduced at the big stage. At least not in any meaningful way.

durkadurka

Deleted User wrote: »

oops, correct, not B => not A.

edit: nope, was right the first time! If A implies B, then Not A implies Not B.

I'm thinking of hitting the report button lads...

WeeBushy

lologram wrote: »

By the by, I agree with what's being said about Leinster's academy being the difference in progression of U20's players. I think there's also a significantly different mindset between the two provinces regarding their youngsters. Leinster young players are rewarded with HC caps on merit, (Ryan and Ruddock, O'Malley).

Undeniably talented Munster youngsters spend significant portions of their careers in the shadow of older players, and know they won't get introduced at the big stage. At least not in any meaningful way.

They do seem to have a culture where the younger players 'serve their apprenticeship' under the big names, while at Leinster its moved towards 'if you're good enough you're old enough'.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

oops, correct, not B => not A.

edit: nope, was right the first time! If A implies B, then Not A implies Not B.

A => B merely implies that A is a sufficient condition for B, it doesn't directly imply it being a necessary condition for it.

ah gerroverit

Stev_o

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, ignore Ruddock because he actually has a serious frame to work with. Dominic Ryan and Paddy Butler are excellent comparisons.

Why has Dominic Ryan overtaken Butler and left him for dead in terms of growth and progress?
Can we attribute his success to the work that goes on at the Leinster Academy? (most definitely)
Can we in turn attribute Butler's lack of progress to the work that goes on at the Munster Academy? (If A=>B is true, then not A=>not B is also true - this is logic).

This is the point I'm trying to make here. There's a gulf in the difference between how players in one team are brought forward compared to players in another. In terms of conditioning, gametime and fundamentally success.

The point I was trying to make was that Ruddock, who's come through arguably the best Academy in the NH, would probably be more tempted up North at Ulster, where similar success and trust in youth has been shown, than he would be at Munster.

Ryan was a gym freak apparently before he got into the Leinster setup so it's predictable that his size would inevitably get bigger in a professional setup. Say it must of been the same with Ferris.

durkadurka

Maybe we're just lucky with Ryan and ruddock in how they developed physically. Two cases aren't really statistical proof.

"The harder I practise, the luckier I get" - Gary Player

Definitely rings true here imo.
The two lads were obviously dead set on getting to where they needed to be, and were given the right guidance, environment and nurturing to help them get there.

Hard to question other people's commitment, and has to be assumed that the "hunger" is in other players too, but the Academy setup has to take serious plaudits for them both.

durkadurka

Agreed, I'm just saying it's not proof of the academy over other academies.

Cpt_Blackbeard

tolosenc wrote: »

Get your own academy!

TBH, I can see Rhys looking to go to Wales if Leinster doesn't work out.

Ya because Ruddock is a product of the Leinster academy and youth setup...

But in fairness its clear to see that there is a serious gulf between how Leinster and Munster academy players are progressing. Hopefully the Munster lads will bulk up over the summer and lay down a marker during the WC.

thebaz

any reason why leinster are slow to offer ryan a contract ? hes still in the academy, and has played as much as anyone - munster could sniff him out, or should

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ya because Ruddock is a product of the Leinster academy and youth setup...

How can you claim that he isn't? Because he played his pre-academy rugby in Wales? Ruddock joined the Leinster academy the same year that Dom Ryan did, if I'm not mistaken.

irishbucsfan

thebaz wrote: »

any reason why leinster are slow to offer ryan a contract ? hes still in the academy, and has played as much as anyone - munster could sniff him out, or should

I can only imagine they're negotiating one currently. Surely he'll be fully contracted by the end of this season.

CouchSmart

thebaz wrote: »

any reason why leinster are slow to offer ryan a contract ? hes still in the academy, and has played as much as anyone - munster could sniff him out, or should

He was put on a development contract in October.

Source: Match program at the Scarlets game.

totallegend

Noooooooooo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/parisbound-wright-on-farewell-lap-for-leinster-2595441.html

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Noooooooooo

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/parisbound-wright-on-farewell-lap-for-leinster-2595441.html

*shrug* something had to give. I'd prefer it was a NIQ.

ongarite

Balls to that!! Gonna miss the Cookie Monster..

thomond2006

He's too good a player to be sitting on a bench.

GerM

Gutted. Knew it was always likely but to see it become reality is disappointing nonetheless. I think we've seen a little in his brief appearances what we've been missing this season. Good scrummaging combined with his all action play around the park. His carrying and clear outs are immense. He'll leave a massive hole in our squad even with Hagan on the way. No ill feeling. A 3 year deal from a T14 side will get him a very nice pension for returning to the Cook Islands. Leinster can't compete with that. This has screwed up my weekend.

On the flip side, it now seems that we'll have 3 NIQ spots to fill over the summer. Will be interesting to see how they're distributed. Lock is the obvious area for strengthening. I wouldn't be surprised if there were 2 signings there. One marquee and one squad player. I reckon we're alright in the front and back rows really. A 10/12 type player might be called upon. A direct replacement for Berne if he doesn't re-sign. During the WC we'll be quite short in that department.

irishbucsfan

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This is the worst day to be a Leinster fan since Rocky left.

Stan Wright is an absolute legend in my eyes. He came here and looked out of shape, and didn't look like he could hold up a sheet of paper, let alone a scrum. Then suddenly out of nowhere he just started putting in top class performances one after another. By the time we played Munster in that HCup we finally had the superior set of forwards for the first time that I can remember, and he was the shining light in the front row (Healy was young, Jackman wasn't spectacular). He played superbly that day as well. Then last season we saw him stick in great performances all season at either loosey or tighthead, and he was the reason CJ Van De Linde (a world cup winner) was surplus to requirements. He's great around the pitch. He's great in the scrum. He's just great. I'll never forget Stan the Man.

Jedwardian

I'll echo what GerM says. I'm gutted Wright is leaving and hope he's paid a fortune by Stade Francais. After an awful start to his Leinster career, he quickly became a crowd favourite due to his all action style. It was always on the cards that he'd leave, as much because Ulster, Munster and Connacht will have non Irish starting tight heads as anything else. The PAG would have been reluctant for there to be any chance that Mike Ross wouldn't be the main tight head with Leinster.

Trying to be positive, Wright and Hines are well into their 30s and them leaving frees up two NIQ spots for Leinster to bring in talented overseas players.

guapos

It would be great if we only filled one of the NIQs and that would be in the 2nd row where we are a bit light with only Cullen and Toner and possibly McLaughlin. The rest of the team apart from out half has quality back up and i'd expect one of the two lads to step up next season. The less NIQs the better for Irish rugby.

RMD

Sad to see Wright go, the first player I remember who wasn't one of he big Leinster names at the time. First match I went to about 5 years ago I remember he started having a bit of laugh with some of the crowd while the physios dealt with a player, nice guy but also an incredibly solid player. At least we have another NIQ place available if we need it.