Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash

TalkieWalkie

PirateShampoo wrote: »

I see the truth matters not to you, you want it to be a conspiracy and you cant excpet it being anything but one. It would appear you are the brain washed one here.

And it seems you are afraid to face up to your fears. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a basic assassination and cover up effort. The official story is the theory, I know the truth because I trust my intuition, you trust the nwo.
There is no point us going on about this here or now. Lets await further revelations, then maybe you will start to accept you're reality.

if you fear truth, you will never know truth

PirateShampoo

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

And it seems you are afraid to face up to your fears. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a basic assassination and cover up effort. The official story is the theory, I know the truth because I trust my intuition, you trust the nwo.
There is no point us going on about this here or now. Lets await further revelations, then maybe you will start to accept you're reality.

Afraid to face my fears?

All ive done is point out a few things that people have posted that dont make any sense.

First off there was the claim the guy who filmed it had been murdered and now after a month or so theres a video with a different translation. You cant see anybody being killed in the video. But none of this matters to you so theres no point in discussing it with you.

Brown Bomber

PirateShampoo wrote: »

How is having 2 different translations which indicating 2 opposite outcomes not important?

Here is the translation from the Russian forum thats on here courtesy of Yakhas. Its the translation of the camera man, which in the high def is translated differently.

This'll sound weird but I teach immigrants to Sweden basic English in the local school when I have the time to volunteer. I asked a Ukranian lady about the "father" translation and "father" in Russian is often used to mean old man, especially if you don't know the person. The same way you might call an older man "grandad" as a mild insult or Americans use "pops". So whoever said it and the older gentleman aren't neccessarily related or even know each other.

And Pirateshampoo, apparently it is a mix of Polish and Russian being spoken, so the translation is incomplete.

PirateShampoo

Even if the father thing is true then it would still be different to the translation on the second video.

That video also claims theres english being spoken as well (open to correction), but i dont think i ever made the claim that only 1 Language was being spoken.

baldbear

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10125435.stm

PirateShampoo

baldbear wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10125435.stm

So, it was a private flight. There would of been no need to seal the cockpit from the rest of the aircraft.

Brown Bomber

Poland's Jaroslaw Kaczynski doubts body in tomb is presidential twin

A body entombed in a Polish cathedral may not be that of president Lech Kaczynski, killed in a plane crash in Russia in April, his identical twin ex-prime minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski said on Monday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/8214729/Polands-Jaroslaw-Kaczynski-doubts-body-in-tomb-is-presidential-twin.html

uprising2

Goodman BB for exhuming this thread, I think the russians "guided" the plane down into a forest, lined with lights to appear like a runway.

I wonder who's in his coffin?, probably some poor russian with a resemblance to the polish president, who was put in a barrell and dropped from a helicopter to replace the real body with gunshot wounds.


Poland criticises Russia Kaczynski plane crash report:
Polish PM Donald Tusk has criticised an investigation by Russia into a deadly plane crash which killed the country's president in April.
He said it was "unacceptable" and some conclusions "without foundation".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12020927


Who’s in Late Polish President’s Coffin?

A draft report on the crash by Russia-led investigators was blatantly rejected by Warsaw this month as Russia refuses to discuss the role of its military airport controllers in the events leading to the crash.
http://blogs.wsj.com/new-europe/2010/12/22/whos-in-polands-late-presidents-coffin/

Polish Lawyer questions authenticity of buried president's body.
Lawyer Rafal Rogalski called on the prosecutor's office to question the government officials responsible for transporting the body to Poland.

The Polish Chief Military Prosecutor's Office said the first couple's bodies could not have been replaced.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20101222/161889059.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBEU57MnhKo

Medvedev asks Poland not to politicize Russia's report on Polish president plane crash
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said last week that a report delivered by Russia was "unacceptable." The report hasn't been released to the public.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/breakingnews/medvedev-asks-poland-not-to-politicize-russias-report-on-polish-president-plane-crash-112424494.html


RMF FM radio says it has learned unofficially that autopsy documents handed over to Polish investigators by the Russians are in considerable disarray, including incorrect numbering of some remains in autopsy documents and labels.
http://www.thenews.pl/national/artykul145568_are-other-remains-buried-with-president-kaczynski.html

killerking

The Tu-154 crash is open and shut.
The crew of the plane tried to land in heavy fog when visibility was reduced to less than 500 meters, failed to respond to warnings that they were flying too low, the plane struck trees, turned over and smashed into the ground killing all aboard.
There is no conspiracy.
It's an open and shut case.
A terrible and needless tragedy caused by criminal stupidity.

uprising2

killerking wrote: »

The Tu-154 crash is open and shut.
The crew of the plane tried to land in heavy fog when visibility was reduced to less than 500 meters, failed to respond to warnings that they were flying too low, the plane struck trees, turned over and smashed into the ground killing all aboard.
There is no conspiracy.
It's an open and shut case.
A terrible and needless tragedy caused by criminal stupidity.

Criminal stupidity?, whats that?

Russia refuses to discuss the role of its military airport controllers in the events leading to the crash.
http://blogs.wsj.com/new-europe/2010...idents-coffin/

killerking

uprising2 wrote: »

Criminal stupidity?, whats that?

Russia refuses to discuss the role of its military airport controllers in the events leading to the crash.
http://blogs.wsj.com/new-europe/2010...idents-coffin/

And?

The plane was flying below tree top level when it crashed. The crew of the plane ignored warnings that visibility was too bad to risk a landing and the on board warning system to them to 'Pull up - terrain ahead.'
That's criminal stupidity.

Mr Plough

killerking wrote: »

And?

The plane was flying below tree top level when it crashed. The crew of the plane ignored warnings that visibility was too bad to risk a landing and the on board warning system to them to 'Pull up - terrain ahead.'
That's criminal stupidity.

Oh, didnt know that. Defo no conspiracy here then :rolleyes:

Brown Bomber

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

Whao, scary stuff. Watch on high resolution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEx7HL4H5yk

The original video by Andriej Menderiej (file time stamp) that has been made available a few days after the plane crash was used to perform this analysis. The Polish Internal Security Agency has not found the video’s continuity and the lack of manipulations in the soundtrack to be forged and the Polish Public Prosecutor’s Office has confirmed that the video made by Andriej Menderiej is original.

A team of people has been working on the analysis of the video but because of the possible consequences, its members wish to remain anonymous. All of the members have a higher education, one is a PhD. One of the members is also a former musician (a saxophonist) and on the face of it has a very good hearing. We all know Russian at various levels but the goal of the committee was to reconstruct the content of the Polish utterances, making the reconstruction of the Russian utterances a secondary task.

The soundtrack analysis has been performed in order to make it available to some people from the Polish colony in Australia who don’t have the opportunity to perform this analysis on their own. After the elections some brought up the issue of making the transcription of the soundtrack available to a wider part of the society. The argument against was the question whether it was necessary to publish this transcription while residual transcriptions of the soundtrack do exist and convey what is generally most important. It was decided however, that the difference in at least one utterance heard in the second part of the video that the other transcriptions don’t explain makes it HIGHLY UNLIKE those other. From this fact arose the decision to make the analysis widely accessible. As was stressed though, it doesn’t do away with all the doubts and uncertainties, however, the amount of work aimed at making the analysis as accurate as possible guarantees its preciseness.

The same analysis can be verified by being performed by anybody who has the equipment and software suitable for this type of work. The committee used the programs: Adobe Audition 3 and Goldwave v.5.56. The process of clearing and reconstructing took about two weeks 7-8 hours daily (the work was done by each member of the committee). We think that this unofficial version of the analysis of the soundtrack (we’re actually waiting for the official analysis of this video by government agencies) is a thoroughly prepared analysis.

Premises

The aim of this is report is to show the results of the analysis of the original soundtrack from Andriej Menderiej’s video taken at the site of the plain crash of the presidential PLF 101 plane at the military airbase Northern Smoleńsk at 10th April 2010. The Polish Public Prosecutor’s Office claims that this video is original and free from manipulation. With relation to the fact that there are numerous and quite often faulty transcriptions of this video on the internet, the essence of this work is aimed at an objective and factual presentation of the course of events.

The murmur of the conversations is often heard in the background. Let’s remember that due to the sound of steps, the breathing camera operator, the crack of branches being broken, the distance of the speaker or the low-pitch of the utterances it is extremely difficult to clear and amplify the soundtrack to a level of a clear-cut audibility. Even though at certain seconds we can’t be absolutely sure about the words spoken and we can only suggest the most probable content, it doesn’t have a significant impact on the final results and content of this soundtrack analysis.

The camera operator (Andriej Menderiej) is filming the events concerning the group of people that survived the presidential plane crash. From the transcription below it is clear that those people continued the struggles to defend the lives of those who survived the crash. There are only male voices registered in this recording.

Soundtrack transcription

The soundtrack begins with deliberations which started sooner, that is before Andriej Menderiej arrived at the site of the plane crash. The participants of these deliberations must be acting very cautiosly since there isn’t a register of these deliberations in the first seconds of the recorded sound.

1) 3,3 sec. “Przyjdź kiedy” (Polish: “Come when…”; a short instruction, the voice comes from quite far away and the instruction is difficult to be identified clearly, the most probable content is suggested)

2) 5,3 sec. “Tak, idą dwóch” (Polish: “Yes, two are coming”; the people speaking are close; the tone is approving and the voice is muffled)

3) 5,8 sec. “Teraz idzie tu…” (Polish: “He’s coming here now”; the people speaking are situated close, the voices are significantly muffled)

4) 6,8 sec. “Tak, tak” (Polish: “Yes, yes”; the people speaking are close)

5) 8,0 sec. “Teraz bądźcie czujni” (Polish: “Be on the lookout now”; the second part of the deliberations)

6) 9,4 sec. “Trzech,… idą!” (Polish: “There are three…. they’re coming!”; in an alarming voice)

7) 10 sec. “Uspokój się” (Polish: “Calm down”; the person speaking is close and says it in a commanding manner)

8 ) 12,8 sec. “Uspokój się” (Polish: “Calm down”; the person speaking is close; the tone is imperative)

9) 17,4 sec. “Patrz mu w oczy” (Polish: “Look him in the eyes”; the person speaking is close and says it in a commanding manner)

10) 20,5 sec. “Rusy będą zaraz!” (Polish: “The Russians are going to be here soon!”; a young, healthy voice in an alarming tone; the identification is difficult – this is the suggested, most probable content of this utterance)

11) 21,9 sec. “Uspokój się” (Polish: “Calm down”, the person speaking is close and says it in a commanding manner)

12) 23,8 sec. “Ja, ne widi” (Russian: “I’m not visible” ; the speaker is slightly distant and the voice is quiet)

13) 24,7 sec. “Wsie żiwi” (Russian: “They’re all alive”; the Polish people are calling almost in a perfect unison; healthy voices are heard)

14) 26,4 sec. “Płocho” (Russian: “That’s bad” or “Almost” said in a morose tone of voice)

15) 27,9 sec. “Ta pani z tyłu żyje?” (Polish: “Is that lady in the back alive?”, a clear question)

16) 29,3 sec. “Żyje, żyje.” (Polish: “Sure, she is”; said with a south-eastern Polish accent?)

17) 30,5 sec. “Wsiech ubijac!” (Russian: “Kill them all!”; it’s clearly heard that the order comes from a walkie-talkie radio, the speech is very muffled, some level of uncertainty remains)

18) 31,4 sec. “Ubijac!” (Russian: “Kill!”; the speaker is close, a commanding voice)

19) 31,9 sec. “Naczelstwu do gaworem…” (Russian: “We’ll tell the headquarters that…”; the sound comes through the walkie-talkie, a part of the order is drowned out by what the Poles are saying)

20) 33,1 sec. “Nie dorównamy im” (Polish: “We can’t compete against them”; the remainder of this utterance is deafened by the sound of a portable siren)

21) 34 sec.The sound of the portable siren

22) 42,9 sec. “Ich glawny utieka, Kola” (Russian: “Their leader is running away, Kola” in an alarming voice)

23) 46,5 sec. “A tak krużic! krużic!… (Russian: “Surround him! Surround him!; two people are shouting)

24) 48,0 sec. “Dawaj tuda paskuda!” (Russian: “Bring this scoundrel here!”; a commanding voice”)

25) 49,5 sec. “I ubijaj tuda!” (Russian: “And kill him here!”, a commanding voice)

26) 51,8 sec. ”Wot, daj mi vodka!” (Russian: ”Give me some vodka here”, said imperiously)

27) 53,5 sec. ”To jest,… Ruska Respublika! (a summary in Russian: ”This is the Russian Republic!”

28) 55,3 sec. ”O Wielki Boże!” (Polish: ”Good God!”; a frightened voice of an elderly person)

29) 57,3 sec. A shot is heard

30) 59,3 sec. ”Panie Kaczyński to jest…” (Polish: ”Mr Kaczynski, this is…”, the same person as above is speaking; the remainder of this utterance said in a terrified voice is deafened by what the camera operator is saying)

31) 60,5 sec. ”Ni huja sjebie!” (Russian: ”Holy ****!”; the camera operator is shocked)

32) 62,9 sec. ”Dlaczego to zrobiłeś? (Polish: ”Why did you do that?”, said in a calm, priest-like tone of voice; the rest is not heard because of the camera operator’s breath)

33) 65,7 sec. ”Ne słuszaj” (Russian: ”Don’t listen”; the commander’s order)

34) 66,7 sec. A shot is heard

35) 69,3 sec A laughter of a few people

36) 70,1 sec A weapon is being reloaded twice

37) 72,4 sec Wsie nazad bo, kurwa… (Russian: ”Go away you all or I’ll ****ing…”, an order given to rubbernecks, the rest of the utterance is undecipherable because of the shot)

38) 73,3 sec. Another shot is heard

39) 74,8 sec. ”Aleksiej tam!” (Russian: ”Aleksiej, over there!”, said in an alarming voice coming from far away)

40) 75,9 sec. A shot

41) 76,7 sec. ”Czemu nas zabijasz?” or ”Czemu go zabiłeś?” (Polish: ”Why are you killing us?” or ”Why did you kill him?”; a distant and muffled utterance, the voice probably belongs to the same person that spoke in 62,9 sec.; the most probable content is suggested)

42) 78,8 sec. ”A tech uhodi szto” (Russian: ”And you – go away”)

43) 80,5 sec. ”Uhodia” (Russian: ”I’m going”, a reply to the order above)

44) 80,9 sec. ”Ni huja sjebie” (Russian: ”Holy ****”, said by the shocked camera operator)

45) The sound of the siren of the arriving fire brigade.

End of recording.
http://smolensk-2010.pl/2010-09-06-an-amateur-video-from-smolensk-%E2%80%93-an-analysis-and-audio-transcription.html

Brown Bomber

Physics professor M. Dakowski, an expert on rotation dynamics, conservation lawand materials resistance made calculations showing that the death of each passenger of the plane was highly unlikely.

Warsaw, 2010-10-3

Public Prosecutor General

Andrzej Seremet

General Prosecutor’s Office

Re: The plane Tu 154 catastrophe during its landing at Severny airport on 10 April 2010

Crime Notification

Performing the civic duty of informing a penal prosecution agency about an offence prosecuted ex officio included in the Polish Penal Procedure Code and the legal duty included in article 240 p. l of the Polish Penal Code that says:

“Whoever knowing reliable information about any offence punishable under article 118, 118a, 120-124, 127, 128, 130, 134, 140, 148, 163, 166, 189, 189a p. 1, article. 252 or a terrorist crime that has been committed, performed or attempted does not inform instantly the qualified prosecution agency is liable to imprisonment of up to 3 years”,

I inform that:

1. being a full professor of physics professionally working on rotation dynamics and conservation law (momentum, angular momentum, etc.) and materials resistance I have made and I possess calculation which shows that acceleration at the moment of the fuselage contact with the ground or trees averaged from 0,4g till 4g (g – gravitational acceleration), which makes highly unlikely the death of each passenger during the braking and as a result of it. It was also impossible for the airframe to make a half-roll after the conceivable loss of the wing fragment at the few metres above the ground.
2. The fuselage, treated in the calculation as a tube made mainly of duralumin reinforced with ribs, while sliding on the grove should stay integral or fall to not more than three pieces. Its disintegration into tens thousands of pieces is contradictory to the material durability, defined in mechanics. This indicates that the disintegration of fuselage surely happened for other reasons easy to specify unambiguously.
3. The calculations made on the basis of the revealed black-box records indicate at various, fluctuating and variable velocities of the airframe in the air (e.g. 59 km/h or 158 km/h, which is contradictory to the law of conservation of momentum) while the minimum possible speed of Tu 154 in steady flight was 270 km/h. This is clear and unambiguous evidence that a person or a company that passed the records to the Polish party, had tampered with it.

Laws of physics are absolute. As the laws of nature they are unchangeable and stand above the laws of geopolitics or sociology.

I suggest General Prosecutor’s Office my and known by me experts’ on mechanics, rotation dynamics, electronics and computer science (3D trajectory) participating in the investigation on the merits. Political aspect does not concern us.

Prof. M. Dakowski

physicist

trans: Hanja

http://smolensk-2010.pl/2010-10-24-crime-notification-physics-professor-m-dakowski-an-expert-on-rotation-dynamics-conservation-law-and-materials-resistance-made-calculations-showing-that-the-death-of-each-passenger-of-the-plane-wa.html

Monty Burnz

BB, surely if this is true it will be picked up by the mainstream independent press? There's no way this could be covered up. I know a Russian girl and some Poles but I don't see them much these days, otherwise I could get them to check at least if the transcript is accurate. I imagine the BBC would have no such resource problems

Daithi 1

This guy was the investigator of leaks to the press, regarding the investigation into the crash.. He cut a press interview short to return to his desk where he tried to blow his brains out, but he survived

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt_z-KWD6h0

Daithi 1

Polish colonel survives suicide attempt to speak from hospital bed


A Polish lawyer who shot himself in the head at a news conference and survived has revealed the reasons for his suicide attempt.

Colonel Mikolaj Przybyl is a deputy head of the prosecutor’s office in Poznan and the head of a department investigating organised crime in the army.
He was involved in an inquiry into a plane crash which killed the Polish president. Telling journalists at the inquiry he needed a five-minute break he walked out of shot of the camera and was heard loading a pistol and shooting it.
Upon returning to the inquest reporters discovered him collapsed in a pool of blood and alerted medical staff.
Speaking to state news agency PAP about his suicide bid from his hospital bed, Mikolaj Pryzbyl explained how he had wanted to protect the honour of future prosecutors, claiming he had faced threats and intimidation during past investigations.
He said: 'I could accept that they destroyed my car, loosened my wheels so I would kill myself. There was a million zloty ($300,000) bounty on my head. They killed my dog.'

He added that he had "aimed badly" after being interrupted by one of the journalists he had entering the room he had previously asked them to leave.
Leslaw Lenartowicz, the director of the hospital where Mikolaj Pryzbyl was treated, reported that he was in a stable condition and his injuries were not life threatening as the bullet went through his cheek. The injured lawyer did however need surgery on his jaw.
Asked by a reporter how he felt, Przybyl said: 'As if I had been shot.'

Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/887080-polish-colonel-survives-suicide-attempt-to-speak-from-hospital-bed#ixzz1jBwgqz9r

Daithi 1

'Key witness' in Polish presidential plane crash dies, suicide suspected.



A Polish parliamentary investigation into President’s Lech Kaczynski plane crash in Smolensk in 2010 is considering witness protection: A flight engineer set to deliver critical testimony was found hanged in his house in Warsaw.
­The body of Remigiusz Muś, a 42-year-old aviation engineer, was found by his wife in the cellar of their house in the suburbs of the Polish capital at around 11:30pm local time on Saturday. She called an ambulance and attempted to resuscitate her husband, but medics pronounced him dead as soon as they arrived. An autopsy is set for Monday, October 29.
As news of Muś’ death hit headlines, the head of the Polish parliamentary commission looking into the crash, Antoni Macierewicz, said that Muś was one of two key witnesses in the case. With Muś dead, key witness Artur Wosztyl should be put in protective custody, Macierewicz said.
Dariusz Slepokura, a spokesperson for the Warsaw district prosecutor's office, said on Monday that Muś likely committed suicide.
Muś’ suicide has become the second incident of its kind connected to the investigation of the April 10, 2010, plane crash in Smolensk that killed the Polish president and 95 other people aboard. In January 2012, a Polish prosecutor involved in the investigation shot himself for no apparent reason during a media briefing. Prosecutor Mikolaj Przybyl told reporters he needed a break, and ordered them to leave the briefing room. Immediately after they left, Przybyl shot himself. Doctors managed to save his life, as his brain was not damaged by the self-inflicted wound.


rt.com/news/polish-president-crash-suicide-483/

szakal

Trinitrotoluene has been found on the TU-154 wreckage

The Polish experts who examined the wreckage of the TU-154 plane discovered traces of explosives on it," informs the "Rzeczpospolita" daily.

According to what the "Rzeczpospolita" has established, who found traces of trinitrotoluene on the wreckage of the TU-154 were Polish experts who spent a month in Smolensk and came back from there 2 weeks ago.

These findings are the same as the findings of the scientists who presented the results of their work a week ago during the conference devoted to the Smolensk air crash.

The information that the prosecutor's office has known the results of the expertises for about a dozen days has been confirmed in a conversation of the "Rzeczpospolita" daily with Prosecutor General Andrzej Seremet.

"Already the very first samples, both from the inside of the plane and from the covering of the wing of the plane showed a positive result. Special appliances have shown that, among others, on as many as 30 plane seats there were traces of trinitrotoluene and nitroglycerine. These substances were also found in the the centre of the aircraft fuselage, in the place where the fuselage was attached to the wing. There were so many of them that one of the devices did not have enough scale to measure it. Similar were the results of the examination of the venue of the air crash where the big parts of the plane were found. Traces of explosives were also found on the newly discovered elements of the plane, revealed during this very trip to Smolensk," writes the "Rzeczpospolita" daily.

As the daily writes, the Prosecutor General himself gave information about these findings, totally undermining the official ones, to Prime Minister Donald Tusk. Since the experts' return from Smolensk intensive consultations in order to take further steps are in progress.

As the Niezalezna.pl portal has found out, on as many as 80 plane seats of the TU-154 traces of explosives have been found. This makes the thesis of an assassination of the 96 people flying to Smolensk even more probable.

http://freepl.info/3210-trinitrotoluene-has-been-found-tu-154-wreckage

szakal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8hj_xdXE3fw#!

szakal

Polish officials say two more victims of the country's April 2010 air crash that killed 96 people including Polish president Lech Kaczynski have been wrongly identified and buried.

Four other victims had previously been subject to mix-ups, including Poland's last leader-in-exile Ryszard Kaczorowski, who was reburied earlier this month.

It emerged on Wednesday the remains of two priests had been mixed up and they had been interred in each other's graves, one at Warsaw's soaring Temple of Divine Providence and the other at a cemetery in the capital's suburb of Pyry.

Fresh DNA tests confirmed their identities after their remains were exhumed last week.

The remains of Anna Walentynowicz, Poland's communist Solidarity trade union heroine, were reburied in September after they were found to have been misidentified.

The presidential jet went down on April 10, 2010, as it tried to land in thick fog at the airport in Smolensk, western Russia, ahead of a ceremony marking the 70th anniversary of the Soviet slaying of thousands of Polish prisoners of war.

All 96 people on board died, and while pilot error and the ageing facilities at the airport were ruled to be behind the crash, many in Poland give credence to conspiracy theories blaming age-old foe Moscow.

In October, Polish prosecutors denied reports that traces of explosives had been found in the wreckage.

nacho66

Is anyone still interested in this topic?

Daithi 1

nacho66 wrote: »

Is anyone still interested in this topic?

Yeah, why ?

nacho66

Just wanted to clear something up as it doesn't seem it has been cleared before despite all that discussion. At least not in this thread.

Andrij Mendierej, whoever he is (or was, if we want to believe that this person was stabbed in Kiev) was not an author of that movie. It was phone-recorded by Wladimir Safonienko, a car mechanic working at the garage adjacent to the crash spot at that time. He was featured few times in news reports and films made by both Russian and Polish documentarists few months after the crash. The old man visible at the end of the movie is Aleksey Kaczalov (not sure about exact spelling) and he also appeared on the TV (in russian documentary called 'Katyn Syndrome")

Daithi 1

Thanks for that. I'll have a look into it later.

Whoever recorded the video, imo he believed it was gunshots he'd heard. He seemed scared for his life as I recall. Like it was a multiple execution he was witnessing. This was thought to be a conspiracy before the said video came to light. There is no way he accidentally happened to come across a genuine accidental crash and took the opportunity to play a little hoax.

Daithi 1

Wow, funny reading through this thread.. :pac::D Has anyone still got the same name ?? very few..

Has this video been debunked ?? I can see how the translation could be fake, but the video has never been disputed afaik..

nacho66

The guy that recorded the video and also the old man appearing on it both said in a russian-made documentary that gunshots sound was kind of muted and they thought it was bullets going off in the fire. That's something that was also repeated multiple times on polish tv. Some also mentioned that this could have been warn-shots against onlookers, so they move out of the crash area. Not sure what service would appear on the crash site that quick wearing guns. Of course, there are many people that say this is just a cover story and in fact russians shot everyone that survived the crash. The whole thing grew large during all these months and the conspiracy theories and overall paranoia is of unbelievable scale among the government opposition and it's electorate.

I think the gunshots are the only doubt in the movie because no one never came out and gave a definite proof that these were bullets/guns of security agents going off in the fire. Everything else, including translations and eg. alleged survivors waving hands or people jumping out of the wreck, was debunked

Brown Bomber

nacho66 wrote: »

The guy that recorded the video and also the old man appearing on it both said in a russian-made documentary that gunshots sound was kind of muted and they thought it was bullets going off in the fire. That's something that was also repeated multiple times on polish tv. Some also mentioned that this could have been warn-shots against onlookers, so they move out of the crash area. Not sure what service would appear on the crash site that quick wearing guns. Of course, there are many people that say this is just a cover story and in fact russians shot everyone that survived the crash. The whole thing grew large during all these months and the conspiracy theories and overall paranoia is of unbelievable scale among the government opposition and it's electorate.

I think the gunshots are the only doubt in the movie because no one never came out and gave a definite proof that these were bullets/guns of security agents going off in the fire. Everything else, including translations and eg. alleged survivors waving hands or people jumping out of the wreck, was debunked

If it was these two who witnessed the aftermath, (which at this point is far from certain, though the older gentleman who appeared on the film should be easy enough to confirm - can you provide a link?) if it was these two and it was as you claimed they've said then their behaviour is rather strange.

Why would anyone stand at a distance filming from a plane crash and then decide that they need to flee for their own safety when they could be potentially saving peoples lives?

It doesn't add up.

nacho66

Can't provide a link. Didn't find the movie on youtube, found it on one of the polish file sharing sites (chomikuj.pl). Film has polish translation. Not sure if you can find it in english. You may search google for 'katyn syndrome', or (polish) 'syndrom katynski'. The film was published few months after the crash so it's not like they appeared only after 2 years or something.

Anyway, the old guy looks alike... ish

We can speculate on why they flee the site. That clip is certainly interesting in a way. However, it's hard to believe that it's actually 'a proof' of Russians killing off the survivors because the overall idea that Russians could have brought down the plane on purpose is very, very, very difficult to fit within events of that day. I mean, how could you plan bringing a plane down and make that plan dependent on the weather and on pilots' decisions. It was pilots decision to descend - even controllers on the ground said that there's no conditions for landing and suggested other airports

Brown Bomber

nacho66 wrote: »

Can't provide a link. Didn't find the movie on youtube, found it on one of the polish file sharing sites (chomikuj.pl). Film has polish translation. Not sure if you can find it in english. You may search google for 'katyn syndrome', or (polish) 'syndrom katynski'. The film was published few months after the crash so it's not like they appeared only after 2 years or something.

Anyway, the old guy looks alike... ish

We can speculate on why they flee the site. That clip is certainly interesting in a way. However, it's hard to believe that it's actually 'a proof' of Russians killing off the survivors because the overall idea that Russians could have brought down the plane on purpose is very, very, very difficult to fit within events of that day. I mean, how could you plan bringing a plane down and make that plan dependent on the weather and on pilots' decisions. It was pilots decision to descend - even controllers on the ground said that there's no conditions for landing and suggested other airports

To be honest I am in no position to pass any kind of judgement due to ignorance of aviation, physics etc. I have to refer to the experts and I've heard reasonable cases either way. Russia today done a minute by minute of the plane's time in Russian airspace which seemed quite convincing. Though RT would have to be the least trustworthy source on this (if you accept the faintest possibility that the crash was intentionally caused.) So I don't know.

What I would say is that if the conspiracy hinges on the video then the case is weak. For me it points to something unusual (beyond the obvious) going on, though it is inconclusive what that something is.