Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash

PirateShampoo

You cant even verify who filmed it, nor can you verify if the stabbing took place.

I don't understand how that a professional hit can bring down a plan, execute survivers and want to keep the illusion of a accident, but let locals wander around the crash.

I im not bothered which version is true, but i dont understand people mentality that "if theres a slight chance of a conspiracy then it must be true"

Brown Bomber

It shouldn't really matter what other peoples views are to you.

What did you make of the video yourself?

I know its impossible to say for certain but that shouldn't keep you on the fence.

To me, its like if the KGB done Blair Witch or that classic bigfoot hoax clip. Seems too surreal to be true but if it is confirmed that the fillmaker has been murdered in a hospital of all places then that adds instant credibility for me.

Especially if it starts to come out that he's involved in organised crime, mafia enemies etc.

Brown Bomber

uprising2 wrote: »

Camera man point of view:
Here's a crash, I'll film it, sh1t gunshots, run, keep head down, lucky escape, put it on internet, knock on door, stab, stab, get door closed, lucky escape again, go to hospital to get fixed up, on the mend, stab, stab, dead.

Poetic :D:D

uprising2

PirateShampoo wrote: »

I don't understand

That's the problem right there, Try.

uprising2

Here's some news from the future, its monday now, I give you Tuesdays news.:D

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/all-polish-plane-crash-victims-identified/story-e6frf7jx-1225856699571

THE remains of all victims in the plane crash that killed Poland's president have been identified and will shortly be handed over to Warsaw, Russia's health minister said.


So bodies havent been handed back yet, so I wonder will/can/have gunshot evidence be destroyed, will it be discovered, will things get stranger in the coming days.

Brown Bomber

uprising2 wrote: »

Here's some news from the future, its monday now, I give you Tuesdays news.:D

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/all-polish-plane-crash-victims-identified/story-e6frf7jx-1225856699571

THE remains of all victims in the plane crash that killed Poland's president have been identified and will shortly be handed over to Warsaw, Russia's health minister said.


So bodies havent been handed back yet, so I wonder will/can/have gunshot evidence be destroyed, will it be discovered, will things get stranger in the coming days.

Well if the assasinated American Presidents autopsy can be made to fit the story I have no doubt the Polish Presidents can too.

I love the way this Wiki article makes no sense now

Statistics show that no aircraft fitted with a second-generation EGPWS has ever suffered a CFIT accident.[2] On 10 April 2010, a Polish Air Force Tupolev Tu-154M aircraft crashed near Smolensk, Russia, in a CFIT accident [3] killing all 96 passengers and crew including the Polish President Lech Kaczyński and other prominent officials, despite being equipped with TAWS made by Universal Avionics Systems of Tucson.[4][5][6][7] On As of 2007, 5% of the world's commercial airlines still lack a TAWS, leading to a prediction of two CFIT accidents in 2009, even though they are completely preventable.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrain_awareness_and_warning_system#cite_note-2009-cfit-forecast-1

Here is the video shown on Russian mainstream news with the 'shots' and speech edited out

Richard tea

I think its quite possible that the hit squad had very little time to carry out their main objective ( kill any crash survivors ), we can see 2 locals in the vid but there may have been 10, 30, 60 more locals just around the bend & the hit squad couldn't risk hanging around. Me thinks anyway:D

PirateShampoo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Here is the video shown on Russian mainstream news with the 'shots' and speech edited out

And it cant be at all possable that the gun shots where edited in?

PirateShampoo

Richard tea wrote: »

I think its quite possible that the hit squad had very little time to carry out their main objective ( kill any crash survivors ), we can see 2 locals in the vid but there may have been 10, 30, 60 more locals just around the bend & the hit squad couldn't risk hanging around. Me thinks anyway:D

You don't know that, your making assumptions trying to make the theory hold more water.

Look at what you have.

2 videos, 1 with gun shots 1 with out.

You cant make out if there's survivers in the video, its blurry enlarged and over in less than a second, Brown Bomber admitted that much and IL agree with him there.

Then the film maker who nobody really knows the identity turns up dead/disappeared with 1 website announcing it and another conspiracy website just repeating it without actually confirming anything.

There where 2 or more people around the person filming, where are they?

The whole conspiracy is based off a video that has 2 different versions. And your saying there is no possablity of it being a hoax?

Richard tea

PirateShampoo wrote: »

You don't know that, your making assumptions trying to make the theory hold more water.

Look at what you have.

2 videos, 1 with gun shots 1 with out.

You cant make out if there's survivers in the video, its blurry enlarged and over in less than a second, Brown Bomber admitted that much and IL agree with him there.

Then the film maker who nobody really knows the identity turns up dead/disappeared with 1 website announcing it and another conspiracy website just repeating it without actually confirming anything.

There where 2 or more people around the person filming, where are they?

The whole conspiracy is based off a video that has 2 different versions. And your saying there is no possablity of it being a hoax?

I didnt say '' I know '' I simply said its possible, just my theory.

PirateShampoo

Thats my point, your theory involves things which uve made up.

I'm just pointing out the facts that are present for us all to see.

Just want to add another possible explanation for the gun shots if they are really present in the original film.

The President would of traveled with armed guards its very possible the gun shots (if they are even gun shots) could of been ammunition exploding in the heat.

xyz1

.

xyz1

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Thats my point, your theory involves things which uve made up.

I'm just pointing out the facts that are present for us all to see.

Just want to add another possible explanation for the gun shots if they are really present in the original film.

The President would of traveled with armed guards its very possible the gun shots (if they are even gun shots) could of been ammunition exploding in the heat.

You do relaise this is the conspiracy "theory" forum?

I havent seen armed gaurds listed among the dead, but they could have been, that is a very plausible explanation. Also I dont think it really sounds like gunshots, sounds to me more like live wood burning, you know that cracking noise it makes?

PirateShampoo

Yes i know its a theory forum and to form a theory you need to look at other possible explanations.

And i agree with you on the wood sound, it could also be a good few other things as well.

Yitzhak Rabin

xyz1 wrote: »

Also I dont think it really sounds like gunshots, sounds to me more like live wood burning, you know that cracking noise it makes?

From my experience, that is most definitely gun fire. Its the definitive crack, followed very closely by a thunk sound. They are very very close together suggesting the gunshots are about 50m away, no more than 100. It sounds closest to a handgun, but with a sound quality that poor its hard to tell.

It still doesn't prove a conspiracy, but its certainly interesting, I wouldn't completely rule that out. I'm going to keep an open mind on this one.

Does anyone speak russian or polish, I would like to have an independant source verify the subtitles. The fact that its clearly an airplane, and to me, the voices at least don't sound edited, would lead me to believe its more than likely not a hoax.

uprising2

yekahs wrote: »

Does anyone speak russian or polish, I would like to have an independant source verify the subtitles. The fact that its clearly an airplane, and to me, the voices at least don't sound edited, would lead me to believe its more than likely not a hoax.

I've a mate Polish/Ukrainian, comes from Chelm only a river for a border, I'm going to get him to translate it when I see him, I'll post what he says.

Edit:
He speaks both Russian and Polish.

Yitzhak Rabin

uprising2 wrote: »

I've a mate Polish/Ukrainian, comes from Chelm only a river for a border, I'm going to get him to translate it when I see him, I'll post what he says.

Edit:
He speaks both Russian and Polish.

In the meantime, I've posted it in both the Russian and Polish language forums, to see if anyone there would like to translate it.

Brown Bomber

(poorly) google translated Polish mainstream? ( HP sponsored, has lotto, tv guide etc)

The film, which has already everyone can see, the author

this movie Adrij Mendierej, which was dug in the knife

near Kiev in 1915, he was

in an awful state to a hospital in

Kiev, where on April 16 two unknown people

.

odłączyło his respirator. once again dug him

3 times a knife.

Andriy died afternoon o15.03 time

Moscow 16 April 2010 year. But

course, this is the case by the Russian government

original: http://fakty.interia.pl/raport/lech-kaczynski-nie-zyje/news/dwie-czarne-skrzynki-juz-rozszyfrowane/komentarze,1467054,1,29891999http://fakty.interia.pl/raport/lech-kaczynski-nie-zyje/news/dwie-czarne-skrzynki-juz-rozszyfrowane/komentarze,1467054,1,29891999

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://fakty.interia.pl/raport/lech-kaczynski-nie-zyje/news/dwie-czarne-skrzynki-juz-rozszyfrowane/komentarze,1467054,1,29891999&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhhRHXRKozTwXJfWAsgMY-q5YPGbag

TalkieWalkie

Gunfire, crackling wood or audio edited in. Obviously they wouldn't edit in burning wood so it's likely to be gunfire. So we can safely bin on of those theories. Considering the fashion in which he has been brutally murdered, it's also likely the video is not edited. Even if it was edited he was murdered for that anyway.
But I guess we'll have to wait for our masters to formulate the truth :rolleyes:

PirateShampoo

The whole theory is based off them few sounds, and the whole thing about the guy being murdered has come from 1 website and nobody can even verify if it even happened.

Yitzhak Rabin

PirateShampoo wrote: »

The whole theory is based off them few sounds, and the whole thing about the guy being murdered has come from 1 website and nobody can even verify if it even happened.

Hence why people are trying to get the subtitles tranlated by a verified source.

Hence why people are searching for information about Adrij Mendierej, and if he exists, and if he was murdered.

Nobody here knows what the facts of this case are, but the more information we have about it, the better a position we'll be in to make a judgement on it. I'm pretty sure no one here has come on and said that they know that Lech Kaczynski, or Adrij Mendierej were murdered.

Even if all the information is verified, and the video hasn't been edited, it still doesn't mean the crash was a setup. It could be a simpler explanation, like rounds going off due to fire as you said. Or it could be Russian authorities firing warning shots to people encroaching on an investigation site.

But to dismiss it out of hand at this early stage is closed minded imo, theres not enough information to make a call either way.

Yitzhak Rabin

yekahs wrote: »

In the meantime, I've posted it in both the Russian and Polish language forums, to see if anyone there would like to translate it.

A user called survivor2 in the Russian forum gave this reply

A man who had reached the place of the crash site heard the shots and excitedly exclaims "Fu..ing hell...fu..ing hell..''
Someone yells ''go back.." in the end of the video ''.. father go back..''
Russian media reported that it might explode burning ammunition belonging to the bodyguards of the President. Very sad.
My condolences to the Polish people.

Based on that translation, what I think the most likely scenario is that a father and son, seeing the crash went to investigate the site. The son started filming, and was startled by the gunshots and told his father to get back.
I think the "hit squad" is less likely given that there are no soldiers seen in the film, there were no reports of soldiers in the area, which would be hard to hide, as I presume predicting the crash site would not be easy.

I'm also confused why the supposed video maker was in a hospital in Kiev, when the plane crashed in Smolensk. They are hundreds of miles apart.

TalkieWalkie

yekahs wrote: »

A user called survivor2 in the Russian forum gave this reply

I think the "hit squad" is less likely given that there are no soldiers seen in the film, there were no reports of soldiers in the area, which would be hard to hide, as I presume predicting the crash site would not be easy.

Point taken, but I wouldn't expect a "hit squad" to be soldiers, certainly not in uniform if it was a planned "hit".

The stabbing incident happened five days after the plane crashed. He could have travelled to Kiev in this time.

Yitzhak Rabin

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

Point taken, but I wouldn't expect a "hit squad" to be soldiers, certainly not in uniform if it was a planned "hit".

Yep, you're right actually. The mossad hit in Dubai early this year comes to mind

The stabbing incident happened five days after the plane crashed. He could have travelled to Kiev in this time.

I still think its unlikely. I would say they are unrelated, but thats just an opinion, which could change if any solid info about the guy comes out. Its hard to suppress info about someone being stabbed in a hospital.
Surely it would be easier, and make more sense to poison, or suffocate him while in hospital, rather than a messy stabbing.

PirateShampoo

Also all the websites that are talking about this stabbing havent posted the original source, they all seem to be quoting each other. A round robin if you could say.

namloc1980

yekahs wrote: »

I'm also confused why the supposed video maker was in a hospital in Kiev, when the plane crashed in Smolensk. They are hundreds of miles apart.

Not to mention he went to hospital in a different country. Very weird.

The crash site, according to the reports, was just 200m short of the runway. Having looked at it on Google Earth, the crash site is very close to a road and there is large indusdrial area close by as well as residential areas. Seems like an odd location to send out a hit squad with potentially hundreds of witnesses on the doorstep of the crash site.

Having said that if the video and gunshot sounds are genuine it is intriguing.

Brown Bomber

namloc1980 wrote: »

Not to mention he went to hospital in a different country. Very weird.

The crash site, according to the reports, was just 200m short of the runway. Having looked at it on Google Earth, the crash site is very close to a road and there is large indusdrial area close by as well as residential areas. Seems like an odd location to send out a hit squad with potentially hundreds of witnesses on the doorstep of the crash site.

An aerial shot of the crash site

namloc1980 wrote: »

Having said that if the video and gunshot sounds are genuine it is intriguing.

I think the video is legit

here is Putin sometime after the cameraman at the exact same location as in the film

PirateShampoo

I never doubted the video, just the sound. Which i dont doubt anymore. But i still dont think they where gun shots from soliders killing survivers and have massive doubts over the camera man being killed in hospital.

Yitzhak Rabin

PirateShampoo wrote: »

I never doubted the video, just the sound. Which i dont doubt anymore. But i still dont think they where gun shots from soliders killing survivers and have massive doubts over the camera man being killed in hospital.

At this stage, I'd think the same. I think the fire causing rounds to go off makes the most sense to me. Particularly, because the last thing you see in the video is the father figure still wandering about, which wouldn't be my reaction if I thought there was gunmen in the area. I'd still like to get a better translation of the video though.

I'm still open to other ideas, but I'd need to see more reliable evidence of foul play.

TalkieWalkie

namloc1980 wrote: »

Not to mention he went to hospital in a different country. Very weird.

The crash site, according to the reports, was just 200m short of the runway. Having looked at it on Google Earth, the crash site is very close to a road and there is large indusdrial area close by as well as residential areas. Seems like an odd location to send out a hit squad with potentially hundreds of witnesses on the doorstep of the crash site.

Having said that if the video and gunshot sounds are genuine it is intriguing.

Any train tracks in the area ? there was the noise from a trains horn on the vid