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[KEEP IT CIVIL] Wikileaks release Video of the murder of Iraqi civilians

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    #512
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    karma_ wrote: »
    Where were you for Rwanda or DR Congo?

    Where was the EU?

    At least the Americans took the lead in the Balkan problem, which you would have thought the Europeans might be interested in dealing with.

    NTM


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    #513
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Where was the EU?

    At least the Americans took the lead in the Balkan problem, which you would have thought the Europeans might be interested in dealing with.

    NTM

    Yes, by using airpower only, way to protect those civilians. Good job well done.


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    #514
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Where was the EU?

    At least the Americans took the lead in the Balkan problem, which you would have thought the Europeans might be interested in dealing with.

    NTM


    No offence but I find it hard to take your high moral stance seriously.
    You did think it appropriate to post this LINK


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    #515
    Savage Tyrant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    1st wrote: »
    No offence but I find it hard to take your high moral stance seriously.
    You did think it appropriate to post this LINK

    Well that in itself show the mentality of many that join the american or brit armed forces. "Meet interesting people. Shoot them" .... Very classy. Just like the scumbag in the video itching for the injured man to pick up a weapon so he could shoot him while he lay on the ground. Or the cowardly brit soldier who shot Aidan Mcanespie on his way to play sports.
    The list could go on and on and on......with the incidents we actually know about. How many more were covered up?
    It's not suprising really when you consider the type of people these armed forces take the majority of enlistments from. Unless they went to officer training which seems to be for the rich elite of society, then most of the armed forces consists of people who's opportunites in life are limited. Either through poverty or low education. The thrill of a well paid job, with some artificial sense of authority and carrying around a rifle to intimidate locals of the land they are occupying is a huge factor in enlisting these people. And that is exactly how the men at the top market the "job".


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    #516
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    1st wrote: »
    No offence but I find it hard to take your high moral stance seriously.
    You did think it appropriate to post this LINK

    It's a common meme. Do a Google search, you'll find all sort of hits on it, or a variation therof. I have a T-shirt with Lord Vader on it in the 'Uncle Sam wants you' pose. The caption is 'Join the Empire. Travel the Galaxy. Meet interesting creatures. Disintegrate them.' It's a play on an old recruiting poster. Sorry if you don't know it or if you can't identify humour when you see it.

    NTM


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    #517
    Savage Tyrant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    It's a common meme. Do a Google search, you'll find all sort of hits on it, or a variation therof. I have a T-shirt with Lord Vader on it in the 'Uncle Sam wants you' pose. The caption is 'Join the Empire. Travel the Galaxy. Meet interesting creatures. Disintegrate them.' It's a play on an old recruiting poster. Sorry if you don't know it or if you can't identify humour when you see it.

    NTM

    Ah yes, foolish are we for not seeing the humour in shooting people.
    You are able to distinguish between Star Wars and real life aren't you??
    Then again the armed forces do attemp to desensitise it;s recruit to violence. Just make them think they are playing a make believe game on the playstation. Heaven fobid a soldier develops are conscience. Or shows mercy to a wounded journalist. Or even a wounded combatant.


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    #518
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    You are able to distinguish between Star Wars and real life aren't you??

    Yes. And I'm able to keep a sense of perspective about my job. Humour on an internet board =/= thought process on the line.

    NTM


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    #519
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,016 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Savage Tyrant wrote: »
    You are able to distinguish between Star Wars and real life aren't you??
    I can tell the difference between racism and a joke about black people.


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    #520
    Savage Tyrant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    Overheal wrote: »
    I can tell the difference between racism and a joke about black people.


    Well there is no difference there IMO, though I'm not sure what relevance that has here.


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    #521
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,016 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Savage Tyrant wrote: »
    Well there is no difference there IMO,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggas_vs._Black_People

    I can also tell the difference between Real Life and Video Games; Apples and Oranges; Oranges and Grapefruit; Pumpkins and Cucumbers; etc.


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    #522
    Savage Tyrant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    Overheal wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggas_vs._Black_People


    What the hell has that got to do with this discussion???


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    #523
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,016 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Savage Tyrant wrote: »
    What the hell has that got to do with this discussion???
    Well you want to Argue a United States Officer can't tell the difference between Star Wars; and Real Life. Its at least as relevant as your comment.


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    #524
    Savage Tyrant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,165 ✭✭✭Savage Tyrant


    Overheal wrote: »
    Well you want to Argue a United States Officer can't tell the difference between Star Wars; and Real Life. Its at least as relevant as your comment.


    Well he drew the comparison by equating a Star wars joke t-shirt about disintegrating aliens to traveling to foreign countries and shooting people.


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    #525
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,016 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Savage Tyrant wrote: »
    Well he drew the comparison by equating a Star wars joke t-shirt about disintegrating aliens to traveling to foreign countries and shooting people.
    You're saying Twi'Leks have less rights than Humans?

    Having said that I don't even give a thought to vaporizing Womp Rats in my T-16. I should re-evaluate my life as a moisture farmer.


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    #526
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Savage Tyrant wrote: »
    Well there is no difference there IMO, though I'm not sure what relevance that has here.

    Richard Pryor and Cleavon Little must feel like such traitors to their race by perpetuating such blatant racism as Blazing Saddles, which had a fair few jokes about black folk in it. ("It's twoo, it's twoo!!")

    NTM


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    #527
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,016 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Richard Pryor and Cleavon Little must feel like such traitors to their race by perpetuating such blatant racism as Blazing Saddles, which had a fair few jokes about black folk in it. ("It's twoo, it's twoo!!")

    NTM
    Never saw it.


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    #528
    Sonnenblumen
    Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭Sonnenblumen


    War is a bloody business, no matter which side you're on. Unfortunately war is also a factor in resolving disputes or conflict. Casualties of war be it civilian or death from friendly fire is an integral fact and aspect of conflict zones.

    Armchair pacifists will of course disagree, but there never heard or seen when someone has to go in and tackle the enemy in an armed situation.

    So as humans disagree, there will always be the risk of war, and yes there are several circumstances in which war is the appropriate or only response.

    There are conditions of engagement and there are many ways and means to scrutinise indidividual events, but let's not lose sight of the background or indeed the objectives.


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    #529
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Sonnenblumen wrote: »
    War is a bloody business, no matter which side you're on. Unfortunately war is also a factor in resolving disputes or conflict. Casualties of war be it civilian or death from friendly fire is an integral fact and aspect of conflict zones.

    Armchair pacifists will of course disagree, but there never heard or seen when someone has to go in and tackle the enemy in an armed situation.

    So as humans disagree, there will always be the risk of war, and yes there are several circumstances in which war is the appropriate or only response.

    There are conditions of engagement and there are many ways and means to scrutinise indidividual events, but let's not lose sight of the background or indeed the objectives.

    Aquinas was full of shít.


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    #530
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Overheal wrote: »
    Never saw it.

    !?!

    Ye Gods almighty.

    It's required watching. Go find a copy. Not the watered-down version they show on TV these days, get it off Netflix or some such.

    While you're at it, get Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and Dr Strangelove if you've not seen them too.

    Kids these days... <Sigh>

    NTM


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    #531
    Amalgam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭Amalgam


    His life in the military is over. Someone squealed on him as well, nice.
    If ever material had to get out, it was that video.

    ---

    irishtimes.com - Last Updated: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 06:57

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0608/breaking4.html

    A US soldier has been arrested in connection with the release of a classified video showing a 2007 helicopter attack that killed a dozen people in Baghdad, including two Reuters news staff, the US military said last night.

    US army specialist Bradley Manning, 22, of Potomac, Maryland, who was deployed to Baghdad, is being held in pre-trial confinement in Kuwait, "for allegedly releasing classified information," according to a US military statement.

    The statement did not provide details of the information in question but in an emailed response to a query, a US official confirmed that the case involved a US military videotape made public in April by WikiLeaks, a group that promotes the leaking of information to fight government and corporate corruption.

    The gunsight video shows an attack by a US Apache helicopter on a group of men in a square in a Baghdad neighbourhood. The group included Reuters photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen, 22, and his assistant and driver, Saeed Chmagh, 40.

    Wired magazine, which initially reported the arrest on its website, said Manning, an intelligence analyst, came under suspicion after he told a former hacker during an email exchange that he had leaked the video. Wired did not disclose its sources but quoted from what it said Manning had written.

    The magazine said Manning also claimed to have leaked other classified information, including video of a 2009 bombing in Afghanistan that killed dozens of civilians and 260,000 classified US diplomatic cables.

    Wired reported that WikiLeaks had previously acknowledged it was in possession of the bombing video. It said only one US diplomatic cable had been posted by WikiLeaks.

    There was no immediate comment from WikiLeaks, but a person involved with the group said WikiLeaks did not know if Manning used its services because all its sources are anonymous.

    "Our legal advisers have started working on the case, and are verifying how much this military investigation is violating the rights of our sources and us," the person involved with WikiLeaks said in an email.

    The Pentagon said investigators were taking a very careful look at what classified information might have been divulged by Manning, who was deployed with the 2nd Brigade 10th Mountain Division.

    Reuters


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    #532
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,296 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Wired magazine, which initially reported the arrest on its website, said Manning, an intelligence analyst, came under suspicion after he told a former hacker during an email exchange that he had leaked the video. Wired did not disclose its sources but quoted from what it said Manning had written.
    "Our legal advisers have started working on the case, and are verifying how much this military investigation is violating the rights of our sources and us," the person involved with WikiLeaks said in an email.
    I'm wondering if the soldier who released it could be protected by any whistleblower legislation, or, because he released classified information that "could be used by it's (USA's) enemies to find weakness in their weaponary" that the military will bypass it?


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    #533
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    "Lets not fix the problem, lets get the guy who blew the whistle"

    What else would you expect???


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    #534
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And that's the end of the leaks needed to expose what really happens.. I know I wouldn't take the risk.


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    #535
    jackiebaron
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    Sonnenblumen wrote: »
    War is a bloody business, no matter which side you're on. Unfortunately war is also a factor in resolving disputes or conflict. Casualties of war be it civilian or death from friendly fire is an integral fact and aspect of conflict zones.

    Armchair pacifists will of course disagree, but there never heard or seen when someone has to go in and tackle the enemy in an armed situation.

    So as humans disagree, there will always be the risk of war, and yes there are several circumstances in which war is the appropriate or only response.

    There are conditions of engagement and there are many ways and means to scrutinise indidividual events, but let's not lose sight of the background or indeed the objectives.

    When war is found to have been NOT the appropriate response but rather a huge con job perpetrated by hucksters and imperialists to further their own agenda...what then? Shouldn't it be immediately brought to a halt and the petpetrators brought to justice or do you have some wishy-washy justification for keeping the carnage going? "Complete the mission", "Spread 'democracy'" or some other such hollow platitude. Millions of Jews, gypsies and homosexuals were gassed to death in WW2. Would YOU accept your glib little dismissal of war crimes as "oh, bad things happen in war"? US forces have deliberately targeted civilians as a matter of policy. There's nothing accidental or "tragic" about this. They don't even apologise. They simply say "we regret the loss of life" without even referring to the fact that they've killed people. They particularly like to assassinate camera crews and reporters who might print or film something that would shed light on the daily deliberate atrocities inflicted by them. Mazan Dana springs to mind.
    Your shabby justification for murder could be extended to torture as well. Let me guess...In wartime torture happens!
    Yeah, OK!


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    #536
    nice1franko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭nice1franko


    Excellent post.

    Of course there are 'grey area' situations - most are.... but when talking about blatantly criminal and immoral actions, IMO, such comments expose the person as:

    - apathetic : they don't particularly care (or want to) about the subject but wanted to voice an opinion on it anyway

    - ignorant : for which, in this age of unprecedented access to information, there's no excuse.

    - lazy-minded : too many people are happy to conclude (way too prematurely) that something's a "dirty business", "grey area", or that "there's two sides to every story" or some other nonsense when they encounter the 1st, 2nd or 3rd occurrence of complexity or conflicting accounts in the story.

    - (mildly) cowardly : an over-willingness to accept that it's a "grey area" because then they are absolved from any moral responsibility and it also makes the world they live in a more reasonable place.

    Ironically, they may even form such a conclusion because they want to consider themselves thoughtful, pragmatic or to have a fair and balanced opinion.

    Unfortunately, once a person has taken a position they become entrenched with it and defend it. It's human nature. It's much harder for someone to change their mind than it is for them to form an initial opinion - no matter how flawed it may have been.


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    #537
    Sonnenblumen
    Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭Sonnenblumen


    jackiebaron wrote: »
    When war is found to have been NOT the appropriate response but rather a huge con job perpetrated by hucksters and imperialists to further their own agenda...what then? Shouldn't it be immediately brought to a halt and the petpetrators brought to justice or do you have some wishy-washy justification for keeping the carnage going? "Complete the mission", "Spread 'democracy'" or some other such hollow platitude. Millions of Jews, gypsies and homosexuals were gassed to death in WW2. Would YOU accept your glib little dismissal of war crimes as "oh, bad things happen in war"? US forces have deliberately targeted civilians as a matter of policy. There's nothing accidental or "tragic" about this. They don't even apologise. They simply say "we regret the loss of life" without even referring to the fact that they've killed people. They particularly like to assassinate camera crews and reporters who might print or film something that would shed light on the daily deliberate atrocities inflicted by them. Mazan Dana springs to mind.
    Your shabby justification for murder could be extended to torture as well. Let me guess...In wartime torture happens!
    Yeah, OK!

    Can't make head nor tail of your rant. Can you try to focus on what I wrote and stop trying to put words into my mouth!

    Remember people died in battle so that you can sleep safe in your bed!


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    #538
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Sonnenblumen wrote: »
    Can't make head nor tail of your rant. Can you try to focus on what I wrote and stop trying to put words into my mouth!

    Remember people died in battle so that you can sleep safe in your bed!

    His post made perfect sense.. yours are just cheap soundbites
    .. 'armchair pacifists' wtf!


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    #539
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Sonnenblumen wrote: »
    War is a bloody business, no matter which side you're on. Unfortunately war is also a factor in resolving disputes or conflict. Casualties of war be it civilian or death from friendly fire is an integral fact and aspect of conflict zones.

    Armchair pacifists will of course disagree, but there never heard or seen when someone has to go in and tackle the enemy in an armed situation.

    So as humans disagree, there will always be the risk of war, and yes there are several circumstances in which war is the appropriate or only response.

    There are conditions of engagement and there are many ways and means to scrutinise indidividual events, but let's not lose sight of the background or indeed the objectives.
    no. war is ****


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    #540
    Sonnenblumen
    Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭Sonnenblumen


    My name is URL wrote: »
    His post made perfect sense.. yours are just cheap soundbites
    .. 'armchair pacifists' wtf!

    I only wish an 'armchair pacifist' was a soundbite, instead it is usually some disillusionist who does not have the capability or balls to confront the aggressor pretending instead to score cheap points in a war zone.


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    #541
    Sonnenblumen
    Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭Sonnenblumen


    Herb Powell wrote: »
    no. war is ****

    Sadly Herbie, if that is what you believe, then you must dream on.


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