[KEEP IT CIVIL] Wikileaks release Video of the murder of Iraqi civilians

Overheal

karma_ wrote: »

Yea, I would concede that, it's not conclusive either way, but my argument that not enough care was taken is still valid.

Every time two people agree to disagree an angel gets new shoes.

My name is URL

Manic Moran wrote: »

For the record, my handwriting is pretty damned atrocious at the best of times and I am anything but un- or poorly educated.



I'm probably one of the few people on here to have handled an RPG, and I'm fairly certain I'm the only one to have seen one held by a insurgent through a thermal sight. That stated, it looks a hell of a lot like an RPG to me.

NTM

What's your opinion on the attitudes of the soldiers involved? Is it really a professional one.. one which belongs in the world's most powerful military, and the world's biggest advocate of 'liberation'?

concussion

The two Reuters employees were identified - one a photographer and the other his assistant. Is in not a bit strange that the photographers tripod is being carried by the guy who's hanging out with the AK and not by his assistant?

Ozzy

Forget about being an expert on 'RPG or tripod shaped pixellated blurs', be an expert on not shooting at children, like Einstein -

"The most important endeavour is the striving for morality in our actions. Our inner balance and even our very existence depend on it. Only morality in our actions can give beauty and dignity for life".


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Manic Moran

My name is URL wrote: »

What's your opinion on the attitudes of the soldiers involved? Is it really a professional one.. one which belongs in the world's most powerful military, and the world's biggest advocate of 'liberation'?

You have to have a 'kill the enemy' attitude, because that's the job. And, frankly, there's much to be said for the attitude of 'help out your buddy on the other end of the radio.' It has to be tempered by the discipline to follow the rules which are set. People may not like the rules, but like most of the laws of land warfare, they tend not to match with what a lot of people like. There are plenty of such examples. That's not to say that the rules are the be-all and end-all, there's also a bit of a case-by-case analysis to be involved whilst bearing in mind the bigger picture, but that's not anything which can be defined and I'm not going to pass judgement on them. You don't just give idiots commissions and put them in charge of multi-million dollar helicopters.

NTM

My name is URL

Manic Moran wrote: »

You have to have a 'kill the enemy' attitude, because that's the job. And, frankly, there's much to be said for the attitude of 'help out your buddy on the other end of the radio.' It has to be tempered by the discipline to follow the rules which are set. People may not like the rules, but like most of the laws of land warfare, they tend not to match with what a lot of people like. There are plenty of such examples. That's not to say that the rules are the be-all and end-all, there's also a bit of a case-by-case analysis to be involved whilst bearing in mind the bigger picture, but that's not anything which can be defined and I'm not going to pass judgement on them. You don't just give idiots commissions and put them in charge of multi-million dollar helicopters.

NTM

Fair enough, I can't disagree with you on the points you make. I hope this video goes towards improving whatever aspects it is that need to be improved though. And the outrage over this whole thing wouldn't be there if everything was perfect already.

FlutterinBantam

The 'experts' and the those who know'for certain' what everybody's role in the incident was, should have been, might have been, should stop and think what it might be like to take part in a 360degree war.

Everybody is a potential assassin and I would very surprised if the most trenchant commentators here, if put into a combat situation, would be too worried about handwriting and grammar as MM said, rather they would be more concerned about saving their asses and surviving another day where who knows it might be their last.

Very easy to sit in the comfort of your own home and pass judgment ,letting your prejudices run amok, far more difficult to be out there not knowing your body may be in the sights of an unseen enemy.

let's think a bit before we post.

Overheal

Yeah when a squad has to blow a woman to smithereens for approaching them with a bag of groceries-could-be-explosives, it says a lot for just how narrow a picture we are likely to have of what's going on over there.

I hate to say it though, the bastards are making ground if they can provoke that reaction from our armed forces. Terrorist warfare is winning in Iraq, if this is evidence to go by.

FrostyJack

The initial strike, I could see where the mistake could be made but the van incident there is no excuse.
Every word spoken by the gunner shows he has only interest in getting the kill for whatever reason (protecting other troops, revenge, whatever). As for the photos confirming AK's and RPG's, they are hazy at best. I find it strange that people seeing words like " they have ak's" under a picture and use it as proof of weapons being there, all it proves is they thought they saw weapons at that time.
There are idiots in every walk of life, so to tar the entire military as trigger happy rednecks is unfair, but generally in most other jobs life and death decisions or not the norm.

karma_

The moral of the story is don't join the army. The truth is that no country is worth killing or indeed dying for. I feel the days of blind patriotism are getting numbered, and the sooner the better. Patriotism is bullshít and always has been.


"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."

George Bernard Shaw

Manic Moran

karma_ wrote: »

The moral of the story is don't join the army. The truth is that no country is worth killing or indeed dying for. I feel the days of blind patriotism are getting numbered, and the sooner the better. Patriotism is bullshít and always has been.


"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."

George Bernard Shaw

I'll see you your Shaw and match you with John Stuart Mill.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things;
the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings
which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety,
is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free
unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

and raise you Tolstoy.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"

We are better off for having an Army than not.

NTM

Overheal

Manic Moran wrote: »

and raise you Tolstoy.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"

We are better off for having an Army than not.

NTM

Thats all well and good but when are we going to do something about the other places that stone girls to death because someone else raped them?

karma_

Manic Moran wrote: »

and raise you Tolstoy.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"


NTM

That has nowt to do with patriotism though has it?


"The time is fast approaching when to call a man a patriot will be the deepest insult you can of him. Patriotism now means advocating plunder in the interest of the privileged classes of the particular State system into which we have happened to be born."


- Leo Tolstoy

Manic Moran

karma_ wrote: »

That has nowt to do with patriotism though has it?

It does, however, have much to do with

karma wrote:

The moral of the story is don't join the army. The truth is that no country is worth killing or indeed dying for.

NTM

Sheeps

ireland needs to build up its armys because we have got absolutely nothing to stop an invading force with. we should definitely consider expanding our navy with a few more battleships and maybe an aircraft carrier. we also need to do something about our air force. i know we were offered a couple of f16s for pretty cheap by the americans and i suppose we could do with apaches too since they seem to be pretty good at their role in taking out enemy ground units from long range as weve seen with the video in the op. i also think we need to maybe bring in conscription because we only have about 1000 troops capable of fighting which would be trampled on by invaders its a disgrace

K-9

Sheeps wrote: »

ireland needs to build up its armys because we have got absolutely nothing to stop an invading force with. we should definitely consider expanding our navy with a few more battleships and maybe an aircraft carrier. we also need to do something about our air force. i know we were offered a couple of f16s for pretty cheap by the americans and i suppose we could do with apaches too since they seem to be pretty good at their role in taking out enemy ground units from long range as weve seen with the video in the op. i also think we need to maybe bring in conscription because we only have about 1000 troops capable of fighting which would be trampled on by invaders its a disgrace

Suppose we could just depend on the Brits instead.

Sheeps

ireland: "help, help.. please help us britain were being invaded"
*ireland looks behind itself in its vulnerable position to see britains hand make its way slowly down to unzip its fly*

K-9

Sheeps wrote: »

ireland: "help, help.. please help us britain were being invaded"
*ireland looks behind itself in its vulnerable position to see britains hand make its way slowly down to unzip its fly*

Ach, a night of prostitution is cheaper than a marriage.

Stimpyone

Not sure it's been posted before but heres a link to the actual report.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29487634/Centcom-FOIA

Worth a read before comment.

IMO it was a horrible event amplified by hindsight, the crew wrongly believed they were doing the right thing at the time and the end result is an unfortunate tragedy.

Poccington

Sheeps wrote: »

ireland needs to build up its armys because we have got absolutely nothing to stop an invading force with. we should definitely consider expanding our navy with a few more battleships and maybe an aircraft carrier. we also need to do something about our air force. i know we were offered a couple of f16s for pretty cheap by the americans and i suppose we could do with apaches too since they seem to be pretty good at their role in taking out enemy ground units from long range as weve seen with the video in the op. i also think we need to maybe bring in conscription because we only have about 1000 troops capable of fighting which would be trampled on by invaders its a disgrace

I suppose we better start planting more money tree's then.

Poccington

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'm probably one of the few people on here to have handled an RPG, and I'm fairly certain I'm the only one to have seen one held by a insurgent through a thermal sight. That stated, it looks a hell of a lot like an RPG to me.

NTM

I don't care about your first hand experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

I have watched the video on the internet multiple times while sitting at home so I know exactly how I would have acted in this situation. Having watched the video multiple times and reading articles about the incident, I know full well that the reporter was armed with a camera. I don't care what split second decisions the pilot's had to make or the information that the After Action Report contained.

I know exactly how I would have acted and it's all down to my first hand experience of reading articles and watching video's multiple times, long after the incident has happened.


/Sarcasm.

Hagar

Manic Moran wrote: »

and raise you Tolstoy.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"

I bet you think you are good and they are evil? Not everybody agrees.

The US is seen as an evil empire by a significant number of people/states.
The so called terrorists are resisting the self-granted US "right" to enforce their brand of democracy on their country and the world.


Invade N.Korea who really do have nukes and I might have some respect, keep invading more or less helpless oil-rich countries and you will get the derision you deserve.

Dionysus

K-9 wrote: »

Ach, a night of prostitution is cheaper than a marriage.

Sheeps

1st wrote: »

Invade N.Korea who really do have nukes and I might have some respect, keep invading more or less helpless oil-rich countries and you will get the derision you deserve.

that went sooooo well last time

My name is URL

Wikileaks are going to release another video, showing the killing of over 100 civilians by the US military in Afghanistan

http://uruknet.info/index.php?p=m64893&hd=&size=1&l=e

TMH

Overheal wrote: »

the bastards are making ground if they can provoke that reaction from our armed forces

'Patriots' like you are the reason all this is still allowed to happen.
The ground that the "bastards" are making is their ground to make, not yours. It was an illegal invasion that was undertaken on the back of false evidence.
Your patriotic arrogance is disgusting. It makes me wonder why you bother posting on an Irish website like this. Surely we're not fit to debate with a man from such a great nation as yourself? Just like those inferior Iraqis aren't fit to help their wounded fellow countrymen without being blown to pieces - with their kids as collateral damage for good measure.

Sheeps

Sheeps wrote: »

ireland needs to build up its armys because we have got absolutely nothing to stop an invading force with. we should definitely consider expanding our navy with a few more battleships and maybe an aircraft carrier. we also need to do something about our air force. i know we were offered a couple of f16s for pretty cheap by the americans and i suppose we could do with apaches too since they seem to be pretty good at their role in taking out enemy ground units from long range as weve seen with the video in the op. i also think we need to maybe bring in conscription because we only have about 1000 troops capable of fighting which would be trampled on by invaders its a disgrace

What invading force? You talk an awful lot of shit.

Sheeps

there is no invading force... at the minute

Joey the lips

Biggins wrote: »

Deeply disappointing that accidental deaths should happen but there is one thing to remember:

When the modern forces kill innocents, they see it as a unforgivable sad mistake (irrespective of how their agencies handle it later)
When the Taliban kill innocents, they see it as an immediate murdering victory!

Its all about perspective!

* I am NOT justifying what the Americans might have done or did later.

I agree biggins but the big difference is that modern forces spend millions on publicity and billions on weapons that are not suppose to kill the innocent. Then they employ muppets who cannot tell the difference shoot first ask questions later and then blame the training...

Blueboyd

Thank you Wikileaks for all your work. Ever since the 24/7 enbedded news channels stated reporting more propaganda than news we have been waiting someone to come along to do some serious journalism like in the old days.