Pope's Pastoral Letter

DublinWriter

j1smithy wrote: »

He apologises personally, and on behaf of the Church as an organisation for what happened.

Ah sorry, that makes it all OK so.

j1smithy

DublinWriter wrote: »

Ah sorry, that makes it all OK so.

Well you implied that an apology was missing from the letter, but yet clearly hadn't taken the time to even read it.

j1smithy

fontanalis wrote: »

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/ausador/IronyMeterSplode.jpg

Irony, possibly the most misunderstood word in the english language.

fontanalis

j1smithy wrote: »

Irony, possibly the most misunderstood word in the english language.

It's like rain on your wedding day.

Carry

j1smithy wrote: »

The thing thats most unsurprising about the letter is the typical AH bullshit response to it. There are so many militant athiests on this forum that unless the letter said the church was going to be disbanded and its assets taken from them, they wouldn't be happy, and yet even if he said that, there would still be some saying it didn't go far enough.

AH... the Irish home of extremism.

Ach, aye, I wish....:rolleyes:

The catholic church is cornered. And all the lieutenants and followers are fighting with their backs to the wall coming up with accusations against those who exposed their wrongdoings.
As long as no faithful catholic doesn't come up with some admission and heartfelt apology for believing in some authority which never should have an authority in the first place, I'm happy to be an extremist.

I'm sure that Ratzinger, once the represantative of the holy inquisition (now with a new name - just forgot that name, sorry) would love to burn anyone at the stake who dares to critisize his decisions.

You see, I consider the Vatican as something comparable to the Mafia: They make up their own rules, kill everyone who doesn't comply (in which sense ever - mind, soul, body), try to extort money from as many people as possible and keep the rule of omertà - silence. Not to mention their aim to world domination.

Thank god (if there is one) for the worldwide network of people who broaden their minds beyond the so-called infallibility of some mafioso-pope.

If there was ever democracy than the connection of people via internet has a bit to do with it.

DublinWriter

j1smithy wrote: »

Well you implied that an apology was missing from the letter, but yet clearly hadn't taken the time to even read it.

I was hoping someone else would parse it for me - do mention me to Saint Peter and tell him I'm sorry too.

j1smithy

DublinWriter wrote: »

I was hoping someone else would parse it for me - do mention me to Saint Peter and tell him I'm sorry too.

Biggins

j1smithy wrote: »

AH... the Irish home of extremism.

There must be a lot of extremism about because I'm seeing the same type of review comments from the heavy New York Times to the tabloid sites, from Digg to forums home and abroad.

Strange that people actually think alike.
We must be all raving militant athiests across the globe! Crikey! :eek:

Michaelrsh

This what the Pope said directly to the victims of abuse and their families in the pastoral letter;

You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry. I know that nothing can undo the wrong you have endured. Your trust has been betrayed and your dignity has been violated. Many of you found that, when you were courageous enough to speak of what happened to you, no one would listen. Those of you who were abused in residential insitutions must have felt that there was no escape from your sufferings. It is understandable that you find it hard to forgive or to be reconciled with the Church. In her name, I openly express the shame and remorse that we all fell. At the same time, I ask you not to lose hope. It is in the communion of the Church that we encounter the person of Jesus Christ, who was himself a victim of injustice and sin. Like you, he still bears the wounds of his own unjust suffering. He understands the depths of your pain and its enduring effect upon your lives and your relationships, including your relationship with the Church. I know some of you find it difficult even to enter the doors of a church after all that has occurred. Yet Christ's own wounds, transformed by his redemptive sufferings, are the very means by which the power of evil is broken and we are reborn to life and hope. I believe deeply in the healing power of self-sacrificing love - even in the darkest and most hopeless situations - to bring liberation and the promise of a new beginning.

Speaking to you as a pastor concerned fot the goof of all God's children, I humbly ask you to concider what I have said. I pray that, by drawing nearer to Christ and by participating in the life of his Church - a Church purified by penance and renewed in pastoral charity - you will come to rediscover Christ's infinite love for each one of you. I am confident that in this way you will be able to find reconciliation, deep inner healing and peace.

j1smithy

Carry wrote: »

Ach, aye, I wish....:rolleyes:

The catholic church is cornered. And all the lieutenants and followers are fighting with their backs to the wall coming up with accusations against those who exposed their wrongdoings.
As long as no faithful catholic doesn't come up with some admission and heartfelt apology for believing in some authority which never should have an authority in the first place, I'm happy to be an extremist.

Its not just the Catholic church that gets the extremists out, on every other issue, from Europe, to republicanism and immigration, you see strong views which simply do non exist among the population at large (shown in polls).

However the topic at hand, please tell me some of these counter accusations against those who exposed their wrong doings?

I remember a thread here at the start of the year when St Mels Cathedral was burned down. The apparent joy of some posters, who simply just do not like the church was astounding. I often get the impression that these people care nothing for the victims of abuse, but wish to use them to persue their own ideological agenda.

Carry

j1smithy wrote: »

1. I often get the impression that these people care nothing for the victims of abuse, 2. but wish to use them to persue their own ideological agenda.

1. Like the church...?
2. And you don't?

j1smithy

Carry wrote: »

Like the church...?
And you don't?

No I haven't used anyone for my own ideological ends.

Blueboyd

I think the letter was act of a coward and also probably adviced by a legal team not to take any resposibility in fear of legal suits.

This is however what he himself wrote back in 2001 on May18th as a cardinal

It must be noted that the criminal action on delicts reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is extinguished by a prescription of 10 years.(11) The prescription runs according to the universal and common law;(12) however, in the delict perpetrated with a minor by a cleric, the prescription begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age.

In tribunals established by ordinaries or hierarchs, the functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests. When the trial in the tribunal is finished in any fashion, all the acts of the case are to be transmitted ex officio as soon as possible to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

All tribunals of the Latin church and the Eastern Catholic churches are bound to observe the canons on delicts and penalties, and also on the penal process of both codes respectively, together with the special norms which are transmitted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for an individual case and which are to be executed entirely.
Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret.

MackDeToaster

Michaelrsh wrote: »

This what the Pope said directly to the victims of abuse and their families in the pastoral letter; "...Many of you found that, when you were courageous enough to speak of what happened to you, no one would listen... "

Wrong, the likes of Brady did listen, and then covered it up, in accordance with canon law and the directives of the pope himself. Where is the direct acknowledgement of this ?

This letter confirms that Church law is still superior to the law of the land in the mind of the pope and the clergy, an example being Monsignor Dooley (and this was also confirmed by an Opus Dei priest on Sky News today).

And that is where the problem lies, this is the very nature of the church, that it believes it is the ultimate law, it is god's church, and that is why it can never be trusted.
That is why the pope refuses to admit his role in this, and the guilt of earlier popes and the entire rotten edifice. He might not even be capable of seeing this fact, but I suspect he is, and that makes their sordid history and this sorry excuse of a letter even more contemptible.

What has come out in Ireland is only the tip of the iceberg, a full investigation of all dioceses would be most horrifying. We know some of what has happened in the States, stories are now coming out in Germany and even Italy. And these are countries with strong goverments and legal systems, similar stories are just beginning to make news in Brazil, who knows what's been going on in the likes of the Philippines, Africa and the like where standards are far lower, but following the pattern it's not hard to guess.

Carry

j1smithy wrote: »

No I haven't used anyone for my own ideological ends.

Okay then.
I don't know about the thread about the burned down church.
I wouldn't condone any glee about destroying a building. I like churches, castles, palaces and any historic building. They are beautiful. Wouldn't mind to burn down the overprized cardboard-houses though ... but that's another story.

But you have to acknowledge that there is a lot of anger against the institution of the church in this country. And as long as this anger doesn't aim against those who caused it, it will always be towards their symbols, like actual churches.

Don't blame those who are angry. Blame those who caused that anger.

Sparks

j1smithy wrote: »

Well you implied that an apology was missing from the letter, but yet clearly hadn't taken the time to even read it.

Technically, he apologised for the Irish priests. I didn't see any apology for the Church's hierarchy moving paedophiles from parish to parish (and in some cases exporting them out of the country alltogether) in order to avoid prosecution. In fact, I only saw a passing reference to "canonical irregularities" -- a rather limp excuse for addressing the misdeeds done in the name of the primacy of canon law over state law, and there was nothing in there about addressing the ethical conflicts involved.

In short, it boiled down to "sorry we abused your children, we're going to have a year of whispers on friday and a quick visit by the pope and a bit of a retreat to remind ourselves that we're all holy and that should fix it". Which is a bit much given that us taxpayers, regardless of affiliation status with the church, are the ones paying for the legal bill here.

Min

j1smithy wrote: »

Its not just the Catholic church that gets the extremists out, on every other issue, from Europe, to republicanism and immigration, you see strong views which simply do non exist among the population at large (shown in polls).

However the topic at hand, please tell me some of these counter accusations against those who exposed their wrong doings?

I remember a thread here at the start of the year when St Mels Cathedral was burned down. The apparent joy of some posters, who simply just do not like the church was astounding. I often get the impression that these people care nothing for the victims of abuse, but wish to use them to persue their own ideological agenda.

I saw this happen on another forum. The person in question is an atheist, he would bring up sexual abuse all the time, bring up abortion and how the church was against, bring up there was no women priests. It was when we were discussing sport and we had a disagreement and he brought up sexual abuse in the Catholic church that I knew he was himself abusing the victims of sexual abuse in the church by using them to knock something he couldn't stand.
I chose to leave the forum after that, the mods covered it up by deleting what he had said and gave me a five day ban for questioning why they covered it up and why they weren't going to do anything.....some might say it sounds familar....
So I have no doubt some people, (not saying all) are in themselves using the victims of abuse for their own agenda.

Min

France 24: Pope issues unprecedented apology.

Sparks

I often get the impression that these people care nothing for the victims of abuse, but wish to use them to persue their own ideological agenda.

Perhaps; but it's hardly fair to say that's only true of those who are critical of the roman catholic church when the pope's letter is more concerned with the ideological stance supporting the primacy of canon law than with the victims of wrongdoing.

Sparks

Min wrote: »

France 24: Pope issues unprecedented apology.

That's not quite what it says now:
Pope conveys 'remorse' over Irish sex abuse crisis, orders probe

Though to be fair, I think the unfortunate title is down to France24 than to the Church...

Unfortunate Papal Headline and Ad Placement on France24

dreamers75

http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-forgives-molested-children,101/

MackDeToaster

Platitude of the Day

http://www.platitudes.org.uk/platblog/index.php

Michaelrsh

This what the Pope said directly to the priest who abused;

You betrayed the trust that was placed in you by innocent young people and their parents, and you must answer for it before Almighty God and before properly constituted tribunals. You have forfeited the esteem of the people of Ireland and brought shame and dishonour upon your confrers. Those of you who are priests violated the sanctity of the sacrament of Holy Orders in which Christ makes himself present in us and in our actions. Together with the immense harm done to victims, great damage has been done to the Church and to the public perception of the priesthood and religious life.

I urge you to examine your conscience, take responsibity for the sins you have committed, and humbly express your sorrow. Sincere repentance opens the door to God's forgiveness and the grace of true amendment. By offering prayers and penances for those you have wronged, you should seek to atone personally for your actions. Christ's redeeming sacrifice has the power to forgive even the gravest of sins, and to bring forth good from even the most terrible evil. At the same time, God's justice sommons us to give account of out actions and to conceal nothing. Open acknowledge your guilt, submit yourselves to the demands of justice, but do not despair of God's mercy.

Biggins

...but he said bugger all to those that covered things up please note also!
Said nothing about Brady and co.
Nothing about those that enforced secrecy from kids or victims under silent church "requests", etc.
Very convenient silence!

Min

Biggins wrote: »

...but he said bugger all to those that covered things up please note also!
Said nothing about Brady and co.
Nothing about those that enforced secrecy from kids or victims under silent church "requests", etc.
Very convenient silence!

Yeah it is a good thing our courts don't keep things secret and openly name minors in investigations and the family courts are not in secret.
Sure no one does anything in secret....

Michaelrsh

This is what the Pope said directly to the Bishops of Ireland;

It cannot be denied that some of you and your predecessors failed, at times grievously, to apply long-established norms of canon law to the crime of child abuse. Serious mistakes were made in responding to allegations. I recognize how difficult it was to grasp the extent and complexity of the problem, to obtain reliable information and to make the right decisions in the light of conflicting expert advice. Nevertheless, it must be admitted that grave errors of judgement were made and failures of leadership occurred. All this has seriously undermined your credibility and effectiveness. I appreciate the efforts you have made to remedy past mistakes and to guarantee that they do not happen again. Besides fully implementing the norms of canon law in addressing cases of child abuse, continue to cooperate with the civil authorities in their area of competence. Clearly, religious superiors should do likewise. They too have taken part in recent discussions here in Rome with a view to establishing a clear and consistent approach to these matters. It is imperative that the child safety norms of the Church in Ireland be continually revised and updated and that they be applied fully and impartially in conformity with canon law.

...

I think that the Church should consentrate more on CIVIL + CRIMINAL LAW rather than canon law.

Biggins

We are taking about the pope and his letter but lets steer off that subject for non-answering of the opinion put forth and post...

Min wrote: »

...Sure no one does anything in secret....

Are you SERIOUSLY telling everyone here you believe that!
* sigh *

Your clearly wearing blinkers or just plain blind to many reports of the clergy cover-ups - even the latest word of people been sworn to secrecy!

Liam Byrne

Min wrote: »

Yeah it is a good thing our courts don't keep things secret and openly name minors in investigations and the family courts are not in secret.
Sure no one does anything in secret....

The courts are not a private organisation that set out to prevent the law being applied to evil scum.

Sparks

properly constituted tribunals

See the letter by the Pope posted on this thread earlier on what he considers to be a properly constituted tribunal - ie. a Canon law tribunal, held in secret; not a court of law, in this country or any other country.

Michaelrsh

Sparks wrote: »

See the letter by the Pope posted on this thread earlier on what he considers to be a properly constituted tribunal - ie. a Canon law tribunal, held in secret; not a court of law, in this country or any other country.

And I'm guessing that Canon law tribunal can't hand down jail terms, :P.