Female on Male Violence

Cicero

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think that we condition boys not to hit girls cos it's 'wrong' but we teach girls to stand up for themselves as there are boys out there who are not as 'well brought up'.

I have seen the rise in Ladettes who will take advantage of well brought up lads and attack them.

...............or maybe.........just maybe........behaviour breeds behaviour....regardless of gender?

CDfm

Giselle wrote: »

No one was prosecuted, and no one else has the right to be judge and jury.

I'm not in the habit of lying, CDfm.

Listen guys dont prosecute - if they did it would be Welcome to Loooserville Ya Big Baby Population You.

Call it Machismo, Ego or whatever and some women can take full advantage of it.

A funny aside , when I started dating my GF we went to places my friends went to. Now the women knowing my shy and retiring nature looked her up and down and gave her the hairy eyeball treatment. Hockey players are cool-everyone should know some.

Giselle

CDfm wrote: »

Listen guys dont prosecute - if they did it would be Welcome to Loooserville Ya Big Baby Population You.

Call it Machismo, Ego or whatever and some women can take full advantage of it.

I have a real problem with people assuming guilt because an allegation was made.

Mud sticks, just ask any man who's been maliciously accused of rape.

No one should act as judge and jury on the internet where no an accused person can't defend themselves.

CDfm

Giselle wrote: »

Mud sticks, just ask any man who's been maliciously accused of rape.

Of course you are right they were allegations made in the press. Being America if the sexes were reversed he would have been arrested on the basis of presumtive arrest policies.

A few years back Jackie Charlton commented on a story touted in the tabloids by Paul Gascoignes ex to the effect that there was more than one side to the story and that the lady was no saint.

There was a furore and he issued a retraction.

Now, there were a few issues in family law hearings are heard in camera for a reason and its contempt of court to have stories like that.

The other issue is that at that time it was commercial suicide to challenge a womans account which was what Jackie did.

So what I am saying when will there be a time when men can openly come forward like women do -without fear that it will harm their reputation or career.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

So what I am saying when will there be a time when men can openly come forward like women do -without fear that it will harm their reputation or career.

Clear drives and campaigns like there have been for domestic violence against women might help.

Of course, statutory and non-statutory bodies could easily do this and kill "two birds with one stone" when running domestic violence campaigns. But Amnesty International for one don't do that (see the thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055840154 "Amnesty International & the lack of attention given to domestic violence against men" for some comments on this - best not to mention it in the other domestic violence and Amnesty International thread)

Of course, I would like a lot more to change. At the moment, freedom of thought and speech isn't really encouraged in gender matters in a lot of situations - internet forums can be exceptions. One of the most disappointing things for me is that freedom of thought and speech doesn't appear to be particularly encouraged in universities and the like.

FracturedBeat

Thaedydal wrote: »

Good luck with that, she can counter press charges once you hit her back you have assaulted her and you have unlawfully restrained her.
That is if you assume you can take her down to begin with being cocky in such circumstances if often a person's undoing and just because you may be able that does not mean everyman can or that any man should have to.

Where did i say to hit her?

I believe the term i used was "take her down" and "restrain". I'm sure you are aware the safest way to restrain someone for there own protection is face down on the ground, as they run the least risk of injury to themselves this way.

Also, this clearly went a little over your head but the last line of my response was blassé and cuddling up to the concept of male manliness given the silliness and assumptions of the post i was responding too.

For what it's worth, my reaction and actions would be no different if it was a male who had assaulted me. Perhaps the world would be a better place if we stopped telling people to defend themselves when attacked.

I'm sure you feel it helps though.

Nevyn

Grabbing someone is as much assault as punching them.
'Taking down' someone can still result injuries which are then considered assault.
I do believe that people have the right to defend themselves but if you enguage with anyone physically you leave yourself open to the question of was it reasonable force or not and you'd be told to leave the situation to get yourself safely away and then ring the garda rather then taking it on yourself to restrain another person.

Yes there are slow ways to force a person to their knees and restrain them safely but I would never assume that the average man or woman knows them and can effectively implement them on a stranger never mind someone they love and are in a toxic relationship with and have so many mixed feelings.

FracturedBeat

Thaedydal wrote: »

Grabbing someone is as much assault as punching them.

Not it's not. Not being smart, but punching someone is a section 3, depending on the damage caused a section 4 assualt.

Grabbing someone is a Section 2, a 3 and 4 are more severe in the eyes of the law and a Section 2 would be deemed as reasonable defensive action.

Also, while i appreciate the advice your are giving, it's perfectly fine for discussion on these situations, but not really applicable to heat of the moment situations. People will either have a fight or a flight response, and will not know unless the situation arises. The advice your are giving them is fine in the course of logical thought, but by your own admission the average person lacks the capacity of logical action in such situations.

A lot of people will have a physical reaction to assult, i am merely trying to prepare people for the possibility that they may react physically, and advising the best way to try and drive this response.

In short, what i am trying to say is that the course of action YOU are advising is a natural reaction, so is the course of action I am advising. Both need to be discussed to correctly cover the issue i feel.

Nevyn

I agree on the flight or fight response but it is something which people should learn about themselves. I very much doubt that anyone ever gets to be 18 with out having been in such an encounter, even if it's in he school yard, but that self defense courses and some sort of training makes people prepared to react in a better way then just based on sure insticts.

If a woman slaps/hits/punches a man and he then returns that due to soceital bias and that he may do more damage it can go the worse for him.

You can split hairs over the exact legal definations if you want but if you grab someone you can still do more damage then a punch, leaving finger print bruising or doing damage to tedions which may be worse then the punch/slap/what ever it was being used to defend against or stop from happening.

FracturedBeat

Thaedydal wrote: »

You can split hairs over the exact legal definations if you want

This is normally the best thing to do to be honest, i haven't done a million really stupid things in my life because i tend to sit here and split hairs over things.

Okay, lets make this a very personal thing then. If someone assaults me, i shall take them down and restrain them and wait for some slack jawed onlooker to call the cops. I don't care what people think of me, i don't care about the societal bias of assuming a man is an aggressor and the woman a victim.

To be honest, on a personal level i wouldn't even give a crap if the girl did get hurt as long as i was able to decide i had taken no action that was intended to lead to injury at the end of the day, she wanted to start a fight, why else would you assault someone?

Nope, the simple truth is that i would do it, and happily, because i believe it would the right thing to do. Plain and simple.

**** this fear bull**** which is basically what most of the counter arguments have been, fear based. "You might hurt her", "you might get in trouble", "society will think you a monster"....guess what, you just got punched in the face....your in trouble, and i've seen WAY too many women inflict serious damage in seconds to sit around and wonder if the next shot is wrapped around a set of car keys.

Just me though.

Nevyn

If someone attacks you and you can get clear you are meant to, be they man or woman, taking it on yourself to police them by restraining them put you in a very dodgy place legally.

Sounds like you have your own gender bias tbh in makes sure that she didn't get away with it because you think too may women do.

FracturedBeat

Thaedydal wrote: »

If someone attacks you and you can get clear you are meant to, be they man or woman, taking it on yourself to police them by restraining them put you in a very dodgy place legally.

Sounds like you have your own gender bias tbh in makes sure that she didn't get away with it because you think too may women do.

LoL, ironic to be called the one with the gender bias when i have said i will treat people equally based on their actions, whilst the one doing the finger pointing is advocating treating a woman differently to how i would treat a male in the event of the crime of assault, you seem to be working off the assumption that all females are frail flowers after all.

I mean, that is a fat batch of irony right there you must confess. But i'm sure your implication that i have some kind of inherent problem with women will sway the argument.

I somehow doubt had i made my posts under my old user name, which Boards seem to be taking there sweet time about reactivating for me, that you would have done that.

And they say no one treats noobs differently on boards.

Nevyn

I know well that women aren't frail flowers and that there are men who are frailer then women so your assumption is wrong.

I never said you had an inherent problem with all women, but you seem to be pretty vehement about women not being let away with that type of behaviour. I think it's not acceptable of either gender. I know men who have worked as security have had more often to restrain drunken women who think they can get away with lashing out and are surprised when they are stopped and restrained but that is very different from the average person in thier day to day life.

Re your account: not boards.ie fault if you didnt' bother to keep your email address current, there is a backlog and the process for getting those accounts with out a current email address activated is along manaul one and honestly boards could have took the tact of tough luck but fair play they haven't.
I would suggest emailing hello@boards.ie again with the orginal email you sent them.

FracturedBeat

How many times do i need to express that it's NOT a gender issue to me, but it is to you?

I'm not going to treat anybody differently in that situation, male or female....the attacker might as well be a robot for all i care.

As such, this constant banging on about me not wanting to let women get away with this **** is pointless and juvenile, as i've repeatedly expressed the opinion that i don't like PEOPLE getting away with this behavior.

I don't dislike women who carry on in violent ways because they are women, i dislike them because of their behaviour. I really fall to see the point in continuing this any further if this simple facet has been either over your head or simply ignored by you until this point.

I love it, by simply sticking to the topic in the title i seem to have incriminated myself as having woman issues in the minds of boards native Jessica Fletcher.

FracturedBeat

Thaedydal wrote: »

Re your account: not boards.ie fault if you didnt' bother to keep your email address current

LoL, i'll be sure to repeat this opinion to other boards members who have yet to incur your wrath today but may be waiting on their accounts to be activated.

Rather glad i didn't keep my email current, what with there massive security fail.

I enjoyed the time without boards before my re-reg, i think i'll call it a day on boards.ie now.

Thanks for your time, it was most stereotype enforcing.

Nevyn

Wrath? lol
I'm not the one stroppy off /shrug

FracturedBeat

Thaedydal wrote: »

Wrath? lol
I'm not the one stroppy off /shrug

Ah, you could have done so much better there, a clever quip about gender differences and THEN the implication that i was the one acting hormonally would have been much better.

But yes, you are right, a brief foray back onto a forum i used to use to see if i still wanted to and deciding in the negative....must be a strop or, at the outside, some form of tantrum.

Definitely not a hissy fit though, i'm not showing any of the traditional signs.

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Wrath? lol
I'm not the one stroppy off /shrug

roflmao at Jessica Fletcher

I wish I had thought of that after the milk and cauliflower.

BrianD3

Haven't read all the thread but it made me think of an incident when I was around 17/18. I got into an argument with a girl over....a seat on a bus :eek: She was 100% in the wrong. And when I say argument it'd be more accurate to say she started screaming in my face and I was passively taking it. Now a couple of lads saw this going on and decided to get involved by threatening to "kick the sh1t" out of me. I'm pretty sure they didn't even know what it was about but they assumed that I needed a beating because I was being screamed at. I stood my ground and in the end it fizzled out without anyone being hit. However I was pretty appalled to be treated like that.

Paulegend

iptba wrote: »

Sounds like you weren't just a "lazy" friend, you were there for him, put thought into it, etc. Sounds like you did good.

well i thought i was just trying to be tough for him. i do actually feel sorry for anyone being bullied im not trying to seem like an ass here. i just think that people should stand up for themselves and dont tolerate it.

im just worried that by saying we dont like women beating guys up we will get some cowboy on here that will turn around and say we should punch them back.....................

yes violence breaths violence but that means we should not fight fire with fire. try to extinguise the flames instead of adding to them

CDfm wrote: »

she had a golf club aimed at his head - she could have seriously injured or killed him.

as it was that didnt happen -he got away passed out and crashed by all accounts but what would have happened if he hadnt got away

why would you make stuff up??????????????

that was never reported to be true. it was a rumour.................

CDfm

Paulegend wrote: »

why would you make stuff up??????????????

that was never reported to be true. it was a rumour.................

Apparently its what the neighbours said - thats not the point -if she had been a man- then Mrs Woods would have been arrested and brought in for questioning where they follow presumptive arrest of guys.

different rules and she was not questioned the way a man would have been.

Dr Galen

the hypothetical of a hyothetical is not the best thing to base a debate on tbh

CDfm

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

the hypothetical of a hyothetical is not the best thing to base a debate on tbh

On the ball MM.

Just pointing out that there is a difference in how due process is handled.

I think most posters here are against DV per se rather than counting stats based on gender.

Dr Galen

agreed Cdfm, so if I was to go looking for facts and figures for the numbers of men suffering abuse in the home at the hand of a partner, how much luck do you think I'd have?

Nevyn

You will find some this is the last ERSI on this was 5 years ago and it's only the numbers on cases reported.

http://www.esri.ie/news_events/press_releases_archive/2005/domestic_abuse_of_women_a/index.xml

05/07/2005
Domestic Abuse of Women and Men in Ireland: Report on the National Study of Domestic Abuse

The National Crime Council in association with the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)

The study draws a distinction between severe abuse, defined as a pattern of physical, emotional or sexual behaviour between partners in an intimate relationship that causes, or risks causing, significant negative consequences for the person affected and isolated minor incidents that do not form a pattern of behaviour and do not have a severe impact. The two types of behaviour differ in their impact and in the profiles of those affected. The study focuses on severe abuse which is likely to call for an intervention from the Criminal Justice System and/or place demands on support services for victims.

The key findings were outlined by Dr. Watson:

* The report shows that 15 per cent of women (or about one in seven) and six per cent of men (or one in 16) have experienced severely abusive behaviour of a physical, sexual or emotional nature from an intimate partner at some time in their lives.
* While the risk to women is higher, domestic abuse is something that also affects a significant number of men. The survey suggests that in the region of 213,000 women and 88,000 men in Ireland have been severely abused by a partner.

Dr Galen

Here's another study I found via the amen.ie website

History of Domestic Violence among Male Patients Presenting to an Urban Emergency Department, Philadelphia
C. Crawford Mechem. MD, Frances S. Shofer, PhD, Sharon S. Reinhard. BA, EMT, Sarah Hornig, BSN, RN, Elizabeth Datner, MD
Objective: To establish the prevalence of domestic violence committed by women against male patients presenting to an urban ED for any reason.
Methods: This was a prospective survey in which male patients of legal age presenting to the ED over a 13-week period were interviewed.
Results: Of 866 male patients interviewed, 109 (12.6%) had been the victims of domestic violence committed by a female intimate partner within the preceding year. The most common forms of assault were slapping, grabbing, and shoving (60.6% of victims). These were followed by choking, kicking, biting, and punching (48.6%), or throwing an object at the victim (46.8%). Thirty-seven percent of cases involved a weapon. Seven percent of victims described being forced to have sex. Nineteen percent of victims contacted the police; 14% required medical attention; 11% pressed charges or sought a restraining order; and 6% pursued follow-up ounseling. Conclusions: Almost 13% of men in this sample population had been victims of domestic violence committed by a female intimate partner within the previous year.

CDfm

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

agreed Cdfm, so if I was to go looking for facts and figures for the numbers of men suffering abuse in the home at the hand of a partner, how much luck do you think I'd have?

You would get some fairly good headline statistics as the academic research is readily available which point to almost equal abuse based on gender.

You would have a very hard time finding is details of interventions (barring orders/ safety orders) or prosecutions by gender in Ireland.

iptba

Thanks for the stats.

I was thinking that from a methodological point of view, shorter periods like a year would probably be more accurate for both genders as things can be forgotten in time. Also, perhaps men might be more inclined to forget things? (The old joke that married men should forget their mistakes*, as there is no point you both remembering them, has a ring of truth to it).

One could probably do a better prospective study where you gave everyone notebooks/something to record events and then recall bias would be less of a problem again.

* or whatever the wording is

CDfm

Here are some stats from the British Home Office Website

Domestic violence is under-reported, but research shows that:

• Domestic violence accounts for 14% of all violent incidents.
• One in four women and one in six men will be a victim of domestic violence in their lifetime with women at greater risk of repeat victimisation and serious injury.
• In 2008/09 women were the victims in nearly 8 out of 10 incidents of domestic violence.
• One incident of domestic violence is reported to the police every minute.

You also need to take into account that mutual violence occurs with both partners participating.

Dr Galen

CDfm wrote: »

You would get some fairly good headline statistics as the academic research is readily available which point to almost equal abuse based on gender.

You would have a very hard time finding is details of interventions (barring orders/ safety orders) or prosecutions by gender in Ireland.

is that because the stats don't exist or because men don't go further with the claims, e.g pressing charges etc.