Engineering / teaching maths

monkeerina · 26-08-2010 9:44pm

Thanks Sewlyn, I'm applying for 'recognition' this weekend....and hope to get it back by Christmas so that I can start maths modules in Jan!

monkeerina · 31-08-2010 1:27pm

http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/home/default.asp?NCID=1

Does anyone know what time of year UCD pgde students graduate? Can you apply for registration with the TC before you get awarded your degree?

I'm afraid they're going to make the requirements even more strict and that I won't get my registration in before 01 July 2011...or that the 300e that I'm about to pay will be for nothing as the requirements will have changed....grrr.....

hairnet · 02-09-2010 9:38pm

Hi all

I have a degree in Applied Physics from DCU, again very maths heavy. Got refused for Maths last yr, I've submitted my transcripts etc for assessment to get recognised for Applied Maths. Anybody with this degree get recognition?. I'm thinking it would be outrageous not to get recognised for applied maths since I would have done a lot of mathematical physics/engineering modules on top of the maths modules and Applied Maths itself is just classical mechanics, but then again the TC dont seem to assess degrees intelligently.

Potential Teacher · 07-09-2010 6:13pm

No personal issues with getting registered (as I haven't gone that far yet) but I'd just like them to update/clear up the eligibility PDF that's on their website, so that my degree (BA BAI) from Trinity is either eligible to teach Maths / Applied Maths, or is not. Since I'm considering taking a career jump I'd prefer to know if I'll actually be able to get registered with the Teaching Council or not. From looking at the comments here, it's impossible to trust anything that's up on their website.

vallo · 07-09-2010 8:30pm

The inconsistency is really frustrating. I looked at the autoquals file and saw two courses in DCU I'm familiar with which aren't maths courses but are recognised by the council.

Bachelor of Science in Biotechnology is qualified to teach Mathematics, Biology and Computer Studies.
They have

10 1st year credits,
15 second year credits
and no other credits that I can see which are maths based.

Total is 25 credits for maths.

Bachelor of Science Degree in Science Education is qualified to teach Physics/Chemistry and Mathematics.
They have

10 1st year credits,
10 2nd year credits,
12.5 3rd year credits,
and 10 optional credits in 4th year.

Total is 32.5 possibly 42.5 credits for maths.

According to the Teaching Council, those grads should have 54 credits in maths, and yet, both qualifications are recognised for teaching the subject!

I have a BSc in Computer Applications and would like to teach maths but will probably have to get additional credits as my course only has 25 or 30 maths credits at the moment (though I'm pretty sure there was more maths in it when I did it many years ago). It would be a lot easier if I knew what I was aiming for.

Also, and perhaps this is something the IEI could appeal for,what about recognition of industry experience in mathematical sciences?

millix · 08-09-2010 10:25pm

Remember that the autoquals list is not the full story. Most of the people posting on this thread have degrees that are on the list. The issue is the perceived shortfall in the number and content of maths modules taken in the final 2 years of the degree. If this content is less than 30% the degree is generally not recognised by the TC for teaching maths, unless you managed to be lucky enough to apply at a time when the TC appears to have blinded by the headlights of a potential legal challenge - is that really what happened ?

So you could have a masters or PhD in a highly mathematical area, or many years industrial or academic experience in a relevant area, but if the 30% requirement is not met by your primary degree modules, sorry ...

M

vallo wrote: »

The inconsistency is really frustrating. I looked at the autoquals file and saw two courses in DCU I'm familiar with which aren't maths courses but are recognised by the council.

Bachelor of Science in Biotechnology is qualified to teach Mathematics, Biology and Computer Studies.

They have
10 1st year credits,

15 second year credits

and no other credits that I can see which are maths based.

Total is 25 credits for maths.

Bachelor of Science Degree in Science Education is qualified to teach Physics/Chemistry and Mathematics.

They have
10 1st year credits,

10 2nd year credits,

12.5 3rd year credits,

and 10 optional credits in 4th year.

Total is 32.5 possibly 42.5 credits for maths.

According to the Teaching Council, those grads should have 54 credits in maths, and yet, both qualifications are recognised for teaching the subject!

I have a BSc in Computer Applications and would like to teach maths but will probably have to get additional credits as my course only has 25 or 30 maths credits at the moment (though I'm pretty sure there was more maths in it when I did it many years ago). It would be a lot easier if I knew what I was aiming for.

Also, and perhaps this is something the IEI could appeal for,what about recognition of industry experience in mathematical sciences?

guysmiley · 04-10-2010 9:02pm

Here is another disappointing outcome of an Engineering degree assessment from the teaching council. I am posting this to look for some advice and also it may be helpful for others.

Well, the assessment result arrived 6 months after making the initial application. I had a few extra things to send - they had emailed me about this, so the wait was extended a bit but still far exceeded the weeks mark.

Here are my academic facts:
Diploma in Electronic Engineering (3 years) from WIT

B.Eng in Electronic Engineering from UL (transferred from WIT so did years 3* and 4 as Diplomas with distinction got exemptions from years 1 and 2*. Also did an extra trimester filled mostly with maths modules. This was before the full time students returned to year 3, trimester 2 after CO-OP)
*At that time UL ran a trimester system and the EE students did CO-OP for the last trimester of year 2 and the first trimester of year 3, also taking in the summer between the two terms.

M.Eng (Research) at UL

M.Eng Telecommunications Engineering at DCU

I applied to the TC for Maths, Applied Maths, Physics, and Computer Studies (ICT)

They have decided that I only meet the requirements for ICT.

From reading other posts here I had pretty much predicted this outcome, although I hoped to also get Applied Maths (The B.Eng in UL meets requirements for ICT and Applied Maths) and Maths. Physics was a long shot.

Here is their recommendation:
Maths - "The shortfall would require a formal qualification in Mathematics, by means of a one year Diploma which includes the topics: Modern Algebra, Number Theory and Real or Complex Analysis".

Applied Maths - "The shortfall would require courses in Statics, Classical Dynamics, Hydrostatics and Mechanics. A third level program, leading to a recognised qualification in Mathematical Physics or Applied Mathematics of one year's duration would make good the shortfall".

Physics - "You would be required to study and pass modules 'Properties of Matter, Thermodynamics, Relativity, Nuclear and Particle Physics' at year 2/year 3 level of an honours degree in physics".

I think this is a very severe assessment. They want me to take separate qualifications in "Mathematics" and "Mathematical Physics or Applied Mathematics". And also to pass some modules in Physics.

They seem to have taken the masters courses and the diploma into account as they refer to these in explaining their rationale. For the degree they seem to have ignored any maths modules which were not called "Mathematics" but instead called "Applied Mathematics". Also any module codes with EE rather than MA were ignored. They gave a weak remark of their appreciation that many Engineering modules have a high mathematical content, but I really doubt whether they actually examined any of these modules. Anyone who has done the UL EE degree would know that there is a huge amount of maths right through the years regardless of whether the modules have an EE or MA code.

We actually did a lot of maths in WIT. Our maths lecturer in 3rd year took us farther than I would think the syllabus prescribed. This is evident in the fact that anyone with that diploma was exempted from all maths modules from the Industrial Computing BSc degree if they choose to transfer to that degree.

Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones to have the go ahead for at least one subject - Some engineering degrees get nothing. They mention at the end that I would be eligible to register on completion of the teacher education qualification, but being an ICT alone teacher is probably not worth much. And the expense in taking courses is probably a bit much.

I was actually offered the PGDE in UCD for 20010/2011 but opted to travel with work instead. I am not sure now if I will apply for the course for next year though.

Has anyone received a similar result ?

Where to go from here and would it be worthwhile pursuing the maths qualification ? Anyone know of any suitable part-time courses ?

Is it worth appealing ?

How is there such a difference in their assessment of different engineering degrees with some getting nothing and some (specifically DIT) getting 3 subjects ?

Any advice welcomed

readystudypass · 04-10-2010 9:25pm

guysmiley wrote: »

Here is their recommendation:
Maths - "The shortfall would require a formal qualification in Mathematics, by means of a one year Diploma which includes the topics: Modern Algebra, Number Theory and Real or Complex Analysis".
.
.
.
Where to go from here and would it be worthwhile pursuing the maths qualification ? Anyone know of any suitable part-time courses ?

http://graduatestudies.nuim.ie/prospectivepostgrads/taughtcourses/scienceandengineering/mhr54

http://www.ucd.ie/graduatestudies/prospectivestudents/taughtprogrammes/empstaught/hdipinmathematicalscience/curriculum,46002,en.html

rainbowtrout · 04-10-2010 9:45pm

guysmiley wrote: »

Here is another disappointing outcome of an Engineering degree assessment from the teaching council. I am posting this to look for some advice and also it may be helpful for others.

B.Eng in Electronic Engineering from UL (transferred from WIT so did years 3* and 4 as Diplomas with distinction got exemptions from years 1 and 2*. Also did an extra trimester filled mostly with maths modules. This was before the full time students returned to year 3, trimester 2 after CO-OP)
*At that time UL ran a trimester system and the EE students did CO-OP for the last trimester of year 2 and the first trimester of year 3, also taking in the summer between the two terms.

M.Eng (Research) at UL

M.Eng Telecommunications Engineering at DCU

I applied to the TC for Maths, Applied Maths, Physics, and Computer Studies (ICT)

They have decided that I only meet the requirements for ICT.

From reading other posts here I had pretty much predicted this outcome, although I hoped to also get Applied Maths (The B.Eng in UL meets requirements for ICT and Applied Maths) and Maths. Physics was a long shot.

Any advice welcomed

I'm confused, but not surprised. I have a friend who did the PGCE in the UK, but did Elec Eng in UL and graduated in 2001 and when she applied to the Teaching Council for recognition here she was registered to teach Applied Maths and ICT.

guysmiley · 04-10-2010 10:35pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm confused, but not surprised. I have a friend who did the PGCE in the UK, but did Elec Eng in UL and graduated in 2001 and when she applied to the Teaching Council for recognition here she was registered to teach Applied Maths and ICT.

In my case, eventhough I have the B.Eng in Electronic Engineering from UL I did not do years 1 and 2 of the degree (was exempted with the diploma from these years). So the TC wanted to review everything that I did in college and their view was that I didn't do enough maths, applied maths or whatever.

As I mentioned before, we did alot of maths in WIT and also we took an extra trimester in UL while the full time students were on CO-OP. This term consisted of 5 modules, 3 of which were maths with actual MA codes. The other 2 were programming and Signaals & Systems (pretty much applied maths).

vallo · 05-10-2010 5:58pm

guysmiley wrote: »

Where to go from here and would it be worthwhile pursuing the maths qualification ? Anyone know of any suitable part-time courses ?

The TC recognises the Open University Maths Degree (not the Maths education degree unfortunately) so you could look into that. I am considering this option myself.
The OU will give credits for other 3rd level study so it may be worth calling in to them (they are based opposite Holles St) to make enquiries. You might be able to find appropriate modules there which would make up the shortfall.
Details here
Anyone I know who has studied with the OU praised it highly!

Derek M · 05-10-2010 10:07pm

Hi Guysmiley,

I'm afraid I don't have much positive news to add. However for a point of information the answer you got about making up your shortfall in Maths was the exact same as mine. Most likely a generic response.

Maybe on the bright side I am now qualified as a Maths and Applied Maths teacher. I undertook further study in the form of the final yr of the Mathimatical studies program at NUIG.

Ironically the course did not contain any applied maths whatsoever and yet they refused to recognise me for anything before hand and now recognise me for both. Maybe it was a oversight, maybe they realised I should have been recognised for Applied Maths from the start.....I don't know.

You may receive a similiar outcome.

The course was a full time course but luckily my school is located 5min from the uni so I was able to teach and attend most of my lectures etc...

If I can help with any questions, please contact me

pmonster · 02-11-2010 12:22am

selwyn wrote: »

I know a guy who done Mechanical Engineering in NUIG but he's not qualified to teach Maths. He is however qualified to teach Metalwork, Tech Graphics/DCG, Technology and Engineering because he done a specialised Technology hDip.
Its worth keeping in mind that all Engineering/Construction/Architecture etc graduates can apply for this hDip in Technology/Construction Education in University of Limerick. Im thinking of doing it in the next year or two to broaden my subject range. Even those of you who were told that your not recognised to teach Maths etc, heres another opportunity for you to enter into teaching. Check out the link below...
Now that i think of it, i heard someone say that anyone who completes this hDip/PGDE can teach Maths to Higher level Juniro Cert. I could be wrong though.

http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Services/Research/Graduate_School/Prospective_Students/Graduate_Programmes/Taught_Programmes/Education_&_Health_Sciences/Technology

Just a warning about this course. Over 200 people applied for it last year and there is only 14/16 places for the Construction Technology section of the course I assume the same for the Engineering Technology section. The course itself isn’t cheap with fees in the region of €7,500.

I applied for the course last year and got placed on the reserve list I do have a place on the course for this year.

kennan · 02-11-2010 8:31am

I am in the same boat regarding getting my course assessed and been short a few modules. Does anyone know what the cost of say doing 2 or 3 modules within a degree course and a postgraduate course? This is what the teaching council assessed me to do.

readystudypass · 02-11-2010 11:31am

kennan wrote: »

I am in the same boat regarding getting my course assessed and been short a few modules. Does anyone know what the cost of say doing 2 or 3 modules within a degree course and a postgraduate course? This is what the teaching council assessed me to do.

3 modules (15 credits) within an undergraduate degree may cost €500 per module. There may also be a registration fee. You could be talking €2,000 for the 3 modules.

iona_buss · 04-11-2010 9:01pm

vallo wrote: »

The inconsistency is really frustrating. I looked at the autoquals file and saw two courses in DCU I'm familiar with which aren't maths courses but are recognised by the council.

Bachelor of Science Degree in Science Education is qualified to teach Physics/Chemistry and Mathematics.
They have
10 1st year credits,

10 2nd year credits,

12.5 3rd year credits,

and 10 optional credits in 4th year.

Total is 32.5 possibly 42.5 credits for maths.

I have the Bachelor Science Degree in Science Education. The TC do not qualify me to teach Maths. Its a new format option that DCU has only put on where you choose what you want to major in and Maths has become an option.
I'm qualified to teach chem and physics. Which is insane as I majored in physics and Chemistry seems like another language to me. When you do the physics option you have extra maths lectures to the chemistry option, but the TC still don't recognise the different paths and honestly I don't think I should be qualified for Chemistry.

monkeerina · 16-12-2010 6:08pm

Dear Batt,

As current Minister for Enterprise, Trade & Innovation and former Minister for Education and Science I am seeking for your clarification on a matter.

I notice and commend your continued recognition of the engineering profession as a means of helping to combat what many would agree to be an insufficient quality of maths education in the country. Most recently I note your support of Engineer Ireland's call for engineers to volunteer to promote and 'enthuse' students in schools about maths (http://www.engineersireland.ie/about-us/press-room/archive/name-8720-en.html).

Firstly, it is a teacher's job to motivate students about a subject (Teaching Council (2007), Codes of Professional Conduct for Teachers, p.17 - 'In implementing the curriculum, teachers develop appropriate and motivational
teaching strategies in response to the diverse needs of students in a changing society.'), so would you agree that maths teachers in Ireland at present are not fulfilling their professional duty in this respect?

Secondly, the first point aside, why is it that you are promoting engineers to help in the education of students in maths when, according to the Teaching Council, their mathematical knowledge renders them inadequate to teach Leaving Cert maths?

Clarification of your position on the matter would be most appreciated as I truly am at a loss on its apparent contradiction.

monkeerina · 06-04-2011 4:18pm

anyone here happen to have done civil eng in ucd and get recognised for applied maths? they refused me on this one, but a friend of mine who did civil eng in trinity in the same year was passed. Apparently the difference between us is a 2 year mathematical physics course in UCD.
I've decided to change career away from teaching anyway as it's far too time consuming, badly paid and not nearly intellectually stimulating enough for me, but I really do care about the education system in this country so intending on doing all I can to expose the shortcomings of the TC and help improve the system. Two different people from the organisation have now told me that they couldn't possibly do anything about all the unqualified maths teachers currently teaching...'it's up to the school, and we couldn't possibly police that'. Obviously anyone with any basic knowledge about IT systems knows that this would be extremely possible, and of far more benefit to the students of Ireland than having their maths teachers who are engineering graduates repeat maths courses that they have already done in university.

clartharlear · 06-04-2011 6:40pm

monkeerina wrote: »

not nearly intellectually stimulating enough for me

yikes! you're just asking for trouble here! :cool:

monkeerina · 06-04-2011 7:05pm

sorry I'll clarify that comment as I don't want it to be taken in the wrong way. I'm not at all trying to imply that teachers are not 'intelligent' (whatever your take of intelligence is...obviously there are loads...MI and all that

). What I meant to say was that I'd prefer a career where I get to use my mathematical/logical skills more as these are my strongest skills and teaching doesn't really provide an opportunity to use these skills. On the other hand my interpersonal skills probably aren't as good as some other people, which obviously isn't ideal for teaching. I'm simply saying I'm looking to use a different skill set in my career. But yes, I phrased that very badly and ignorantly, apologies!

monkeerina · 06-04-2011 7:06pm

and in fairness there is a shedload of admin work which could not be considered in any way 'intellectually' demanding by any interpretation of the word

Melanoma · 02-08-2012 1:42am

clartharlear wrote: »

That's right.

It is my belief that there is no engineering course in Ireland with 30% of 3rd/4th year courses provided by their university maths department, as opposed to modules within the engineering department.
My course codes began with EE, rather than MA. This is their problem.

Yes this proves the madness of the teaching council. Also maths teachers in the 4 year degree programme do very little maths at all. An Engineer could wipe the floor with them after second year as you need honours maths to enter and lets face it we are a smarter bunch.

I am a maths teacher but most maths teachers are business studies grads or the stupid teacher training degrees.

I think all teacher recognised are to be respected and all that but the idea any engineer is not more competent in maths content than a business studies grad is ridiculous. Just cause you do a course in maths and its taught by the engineering department does not alter the fact that its maths and the same stuff only a year or two more advanced than lesser mathematical degrees that happen to be taught by a maths department.

doc_17 · 02-08-2012 9:37am

Melanoma wrote: »

Yes this proves the madness of the teaching council. Also maths teachers in the 4 year degree programme do very little maths at all. An Engineer could wipe the floor with them after second year as you need honours maths to enter and lets face it we are a smarter bunch.

I am a maths teacher but most maths teachers are business studies grads or the stupid teacher training degrees.

I think all teacher recognised are to be respected and all that but the idea any engineer is not more competent in maths content than a business studies grad is ridiculous. Just cause you do a course in maths and its taught by the engineering department does not alter the fact that its maths and the same stuff only a year or two more advanced than lesser mathematical degrees that happen to be taught by a maths department.

You are making a few sweeping statements there. I did an engineering degree and after completing an extra module through the OU I have been a Maths teacher for 6 years (before the collapse).

What 4 year degree program are you talking about for Maths teachers? And what content do they study?

I agree with you about business teachers who are probably forced to teach Maths. They are probably not as expert as someone who studied Maths, Engineering or Physics but they are more than likely only teaching it to maybe JC OL. Yes it's still a problem though.

But it does beg the question (going back to the title of this old thread) why didn't these engineers simply take up teaching in the first place? Should people be forced to make way for them due to the difficult employment situation in the field that they used to work in? Which was probably for substantially more money?

Melanoma · 02-08-2012 9:50am

doc_17 wrote: »

You are making a few sweeping statements there. I did an engineering degree and after completing an extra module through the OU I have been a Maths teacher for 6 years (before the collapse).

What 4 year degree program are you talking about for Maths teachers? And what content do they study?

I agree with you about business teachers who are probably forced to teach Maths. They are probably not as expert as someone who studied Maths, Engineering or Physics but they are more than likely only teaching it to maybe JC OL. Yes it's still a problem though.

But it does beg the question (going back to the title of this old thread) why didn't these engineers simply take up teaching in the first place? Should people be forced to make way for them due to the difficult employment situation in the field that they used to work in? Which was probably for substantially more money?

Well yea some business studies teachers are teaching maths to leaving cert honours and quite good at it. I guess I am agreeing that maths taught to engineers is still maths even if it is taught by an engineering department. On the idea of engineers becoming maths teachers well this is just plain silly. Most engineers I worked with would not have the interest or patience to teach. Then their is the money issue which is not so great. The folks in charge of the engineers associations are a bit detached from reality. They think engineers will inspire students. Well I worked as engineer and I can relate a lot to its applications having a masters degree also. What is hard fro students is the three year wait for an exam at JC which is demotivating for them. A lot of students must endure poor behaviour, lack of effort from fellow students and its hard for them.

By the way, sorry to hear you put in 6 years only to be out now. That really is awful. The great job teaching is???

doc_17 · 02-08-2012 10:10am

You picked me up wrong! I'm still teaching away, happy as Larry. I meant that I was one of those engineers who turned to teaching before the collapse. I always thought that the engineers ireland idea was because their members were looking for jobs, any jobs. So I wanted to distinguish myself from that. i got into teaching because i had an interest in it, not because the ar*e had fallen out of the economy

Melanoma · 02-08-2012 11:22am

doc_17 wrote: »

You picked me up wrong! I'm still teaching away, happy as Larry. I meant that I was one of those engineers who turned to teaching before the collapse. I always thought that the engineers ireland idea was because their members were looking for jobs, any jobs. So I wanted to distinguish myself from that. i got into teaching because i had an interest in it, not because the ar*e had fallen out of the economy

Yea I started teaching 7 years ago. I think they assume that if engineers teach kids then there will be full attention paid, great lessons and all will be well.

Yea the idea that engineers should be encouraged to go into teaching fine, but that it would make such a big difference I'd say maybe no.

The idea of replacing existing teachers with engineers is madness. The first two years in teaching maths are very hard and after this any new teacher would probably not be as competent. Experience in teaching and developing a craft are more important than what qualification you have. I knew a teacher who taught leaving cert ordinary maths and she had no idea of the content having done a degree in maths and PE, but she knuckled down, prepared well and delivered good lessons. She also had a lot of potential although now she is more focused on PE.

As I say I give students ideas and inspiration from engineering but far more important is how to prise out information, present and deliver timely lessons usually of 35 minute duration, check homework etc.

Yea I get what your saying. I guess taking in engineers into the h.dip is no harm but sure there is very few jobs out there so I'd advise them to do a transition course into IT where there is demand for anyone with an engineering background/ more money.

rainbowtrout · 02-08-2012 11:51am

Melanoma wrote: »

Yes this proves the madness of the teaching council. Also maths teachers in the 4 year degree programme do very little maths at all. An Engineer could wipe the floor with them after second year as you need honours maths to enter and lets face it we are a smarter bunch.

I am a maths teacher but most maths teachers are business studies grads or the stupid teacher training degrees.

I think all teacher recognised are to be respected and all that but the idea any engineer is not more competent in maths content than a business studies grad is ridiculous. Just cause you do a course in maths and its taught by the engineering department does not alter the fact that its maths and the same stuff only a year or two more advanced than lesser mathematical degrees that happen to be taught by a maths department.

You don't appear to have much respect for those business grads or graduates from 'stupid teacher training degrees' yourself.

I can't take somebody seriously on this forum that thinks that they are automatically more intelligent and better at maths than another university graduate simply because they have an engineering degree.

Choosing engineering on the CAO does not make you automatically smarter despite what you may believe.

Melanoma · 02-08-2012 12:20pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You don't appear to have much respect for those business grads or graduates from 'stupid teacher training degrees' yourself.

I can't take somebody seriously on this forum that thinks that they are automatically more intelligent and better at maths than another university graduate simply because they have an engineering degree.

Choosing engineering on the CAO does not make you automatically smarter despite what you may believe.

Well your ignoring my comments about for example the teacher I outlined above. Yes I think engineers have covered a lot more math than some other courses do. I have spoken to some people who done these courses and they agree they did a lot less math. Of course the idea that an engineer is not qualified to teach math having done more math is my point. The stupidity of the teaching council is what I really mean. Sure my statements might have rubbed you up the wrong way and that was not my intention. I think all teachers qualified to teach maths should be given equal respect regardless of the amount of math in their degree cause as I said you learn how to teach on the job and you can pick up anything you don't know as you prepare lessons. The media have jumped on a band wagon and are intent on blaming teachers for standards dropping compared to international standards. Those same international standards often do not reflect the fact students are preped often for days before the test on the specific questions asked and are taken out of normal classes. Also different syllabus reflect different strengths in students. What has changed though over recent years is students willingness to put in hours of homework and concentrate. Not that things were perfect years ago, but there was a slide which with the recession seems to being reversed a bit as students take studies more seriously.

rainbowtrout · 02-08-2012 12:38pm

Melanoma wrote: »

Well your ignoring my comments about for example the teacher I outlined above. Yes I think engineers have covered a lot more math than some other courses do. I have spoken to some people who done these courses and they agree they did a lot less math. Of course the idea that an engineer is not qualified to teach math having done more math is my point. The stupidity of the teaching council is what I really mean. Sure my statements might have rubbed you up the wrong way and that was not my intention. I think all teachers qualified to teach maths should be given equal respect regardless of the amount of math in their degree cause as I said you learn how to teach on the job and you can pick up anything you don't know as you prepare lessons. The media have jumped on a band wagon and are intent on blaming teachers for standards dropping compared to international standards. Those same international standards often do not reflect the fact students are preped often for days before the test on the specific questions asked and are taken out of normal classes. Also different syllabus reflect different strengths in students. What has changed though over recent years is students willingness to put in hours of homework and concentrate. Not that things were perfect years ago, but there was a slide which with the recession seems to being reversed a bit as students take studies more seriously.

Regardless of what the mathematical content of an engineering degree is and what the teaching council's view is on it, you haven't addressed the point that you think engineers are smarter than everyone else and that you have a condescending view of people who have completed teacher training degrees.

evolving_doors · 02-08-2012 1:19pm

Oh god are these engineers back again, I thought that thread had gone stale....I'd like to know who taught all these brilliant engineer/mathematicians in secondary school anyway?

Teachers with Engineering Degrees? (Not bloody likely)

Teachers with Maths Degrees ? (Meh!!)

Just good teachers? (More than Likely)

This whole maths in secondary school thing is all smoke and mirrors hashed out every year, just make it an optional subject and you'll see the Failure rate drop (assuming you don't have 30 odd people crammed into one class).

Sure, the way it's taught and examined needs to change, I think we all accept that, but that has to do with Pedagogy rather than how you can 'wipe the floor' in some fantasy challange expounding convoluted monkey tricks you learned in 4th year of college which I'm sure 17 year olds would love to hear about. I also agree that some type of maths studied in college is necessary.

Meanwhile
I don't mind Engineers with the PGDE teaching in schools but just Engineers jumping straight in.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik

Engineering / teaching maths

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