Engineering / teaching maths

gaeilgegrinds1

We have engineers as maths teachers in our school, two of them. I know one struggled to get his tc cert but the union were unreal, he brought it up at a meeting two years ago. Have you tried them? What they're there for after all.

kennan

What Union is that, there seems to be alot of people in this situation at the minute,
Do you have contact details as I would like to discuss my details with them.

millix

clartharlear

I am also an UCC engineering graduate and am applying this year for PGDE ( Sept 2010 start ). On my PAC application form page 2 the following table appears - I took this to mean that teaching council approval was already in place ? Do you think otherwise based on your experience ?

M.


Teaching Council - Degree Eligibility Holder of Degree/Eligible Degree: yes Qualification Code: CK40P Subjects satisfied: yes Authorisation to PDEAC: yes

clartharlear

Yup, that's lies, bull-droppings and pure filthy blaggardery.

Teaching Council approval is NOT in place.

millix

I phoned the PAC office and was told there that it was a matter for the teaching council. I phoned the teaching council and after 10 minutes on hold the answering machine message suggested to call back later or to send an email. So I sent an email. I'll post back if/when I hear back.


M

millix

Teaching council advice is to look for recognition of the engineering degree to verify whether the criteria are met ( ie mathematics content is 30% or greater etc ). Not really the result I was hoping for - this appears to be a relatively new policy ( last 3 or 4 years ? )

I'd be interested to hear if others have encountered this issue, either accepted or rejected - in particular does anyone know of someone whose engineering degree was accepted by Teaching Council as valid to teach maths at second level, in recent years ?

M

clartharlear

But you know yourself what modules you did in 3rd year and 4th year. Did they have maths in the title? The teaching council won't look past that.

millix

Maybe it might be worth a letter to the minister Batt O Keeffe - this issue ( teaching council disputing engineering as a valid degree for maths teaching ) has been brought to his attention by the IEI at a recent meeting - see

http://apresidentsblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/place-of-mathematics-education-in.html

M

D-Generate

I did Elec Eng in UCC also and I am shocked that it isn't deemed mathsy enough. Anyone who has had the joys of final year DSP or Field Theory in third year will know that its not for those with no aptitude in maths.

On one hand though, looking at the current LC curriculum it appears that the maths topics covered in Elec Eng aren't applicable as much as they used to be. Vector calculus and time-series analysis would be major components in Elec Eng but in the LC maths they do not even use vectors anymore as far as I know and they certainly don't use any Fourier Transforms. Nonetheless, anyone that graduated with a 2:1 or above surely would have displayed enough of a mathematical mind to teach relatively easy maths topics.

Whilst you are unable to teach maths, whats the story with applied maths? I know only a couple of schools timetable it, Christians being one of the few if you are looking around. Its a shame that schools themselves don't get a say on who they want to hire because I imagine many schools would be crying out for engineering grads.

TheDriver

Thing is its not the exact topics you do in Maths in College thats the key, its the aptitude and TC are being a bit bad not to recognise Maths in its various forms. App Maths jobs are like hens teeth, theres 2 of us in my school and Frank, the guy in Christians won't be going anywhere for a long time as is the case with most schools.

clartharlear

Initially, it was considered that an engineering degree was suitable for teaching Maths AND applied maths. Now it's not considered suitable for any second level subject.

Also, I think an engineering degree should be recognised for teaching physics!

Field theory IS recognised as an applied maths module, but that's the only one and you need 30%.

millix

Thanks for this update - is it really the case that if a transcript says BE, teaching council has no issue, but if it says BE(mechanical) or BE ( electronic ) the degree may not be seen as a valid qualification to teach maths at second level ??

Does it not also depend on the subjects taken and whether maths and/or applied maths was taken in the 3rd and 4th years of the degree ?

M

Derek M

Hi Guys,

I came across your thread and said I would give you all some info on my experience. I am in the exact same boat. I have BE from NUIG and decided that teaching was the career for me. I left my job as an engineer and did a years subbing in a school, then went on to do the HDip (PGDE) last year in the same school.

I was confident about my ability to teach Maths and Applied Maths as they were the subjects on the AutoQuals list. I was also confident about satisfying the individual subject criteria as all of you know the BE degree has a lot more than 30% maths content.

However, the TC has deemed otherwise. Once I realised that there might be hassle with my degree I contacted the TC. It took them six weeks to reply to my mail and by that stage I had already accepted the PGDE. Long story short I submitted my documentation for assessment. It came back a NO for any subject. I argued my case with, got more documentation, got the Dean of Engineering onto them, letters from Heads of Departments, lecturers etc...and sent in an appeal.

This process took almost one and a half years (they are a complete joke). In they end it still came back with a NO. I was left in Limbo. The only choice I had was to undertake further study to make up my so called shortfall in Mathematics.

I came to an agreement with the TC and NUIG to join in the final year of a Mathematical studies degree program through the Arts department this year. I had to undertake the full program (all 60 credits) this year. I also have been teaching in my school along with the degree program (I lucked out with my timetable and lectures/classes did not clash).

I finished my last lecture this week and have my final three exams at the beginning of May. It has been an immensely tough year (much more of a workload than the PGDE) and it cost me almost 4grand but at least I can get on with my career and get my teaching number after this.

I have a letter from the TC stating that they will recognise me for Maths and Applied Maths upon completion of the course. Hope this can shed some light on your situation. It’s a terrible predicament to be in. But the TC are the single most difficult organisation I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with. The same has been said by members of the Engineering department in NUIG. In fact the even didn’t bother replying to messages from the Dean of Engineering.

clartharlear

This all happened a couple of years ago? So the TC and the PAC are still allowing people to do the dip when they have this secret small print?

Boards.ie acceptable language policy won't allow me to say how I feel.

Derek M

It seems to be a little more complicated than that, but basically yes. I have had numerous conversations with the TC and was told numerous different lies/mistruths. The people I spoke to didn't really know what they were talking about.

Some said that the BE in Engineering was recognised but that the individual engineering degrees were not, i.e mech eng, elec eng etc.... I tried to explain to them that there was no such thing as a BE without the course title but they just fobbed me off. Their flag seems to go up once they see an engineering degree.

In the end I went through the long process on having my degree and assessed and re-assessed through an appeal. Bottom line seems to be that they do not accept the engineering based maths subjects as sufficient. The qualifications are sent to an external mathematics advisor (generally a professor of Maths somewhere) who has a list of criteria on which to base his/her assessment. Some of the advisors are purists and don't like the idea of Engineers teaching maths. My appeal was unsuccessful ( bear in mind that I sent in numerous correspondence from NUIG along with exams papers, lecture notes, exam solutions etc... all clearly showing the mathematical content of the 3rd and 4th year subjects they had problems with.

The TC generally seems to accept the ruling of this assessor. I was left with very little choice, A further years study seemed to be my only option.

With regard to the PGDE and PAC. They seem to distance themselves from qualification recognition. The applicant has to tick a box on the PAC application saying that their degree is recognised by the TC. In my case I said yes. I was 100% certain that I satisfied their criteria. Friends of mine who had studied engineering were teachers, my degree was on the AutoQuals list and I and my department were satisfied that the mathematics subject criterion was satisfied (30% mathematics in degree).

The TC are a relatively new body. They seem to have started around 2006. Qualification recognition is only part of their remit but is a problematic one. Engineers seem to have been able to teach up until this. The TC are now just looking at things in black and white and if they don't see maths in the subject title you don't get recognised.

millix

Derek

Thanks for your input on this. Can you clarify whether you had modules or subjects in your 3rd and 4th year that were listed in your transcripts as "Mathematics" or "Applied Mathematics" ? Based on the earlier posts, this appears to make a difference for the Teaching Council.

Thanks, M

Derek M

Hi M,

None of my 3rd/4th year subjects had Mathematics or Applied Mathematics in the title. I appealed on the mathematical/applied mathematical content of the following subjects.

Third Year
• ME304 – Mechanical Analysis and Design
• ME301 – Fluid Dynamics
• ME306 – Applied Thermodynamics

Final Year
• ME404 – Heat Transfer
• ME501 – Finite Element Methods in Engineering Analysis
• ME416 – Biomechanics
• ME421 – Medical Implant and Device Design

I also submitted a letter of support from the Applied Mathematics teachers association of Ireland but it didn't help in the end.

clartharlear

The TC aren't terribly clear on their requirements either, I suppose to give them leeway to say no.

They say

 The study of Mathematics as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period

So, each year is worth 60 credits, so they want at least 180 credits, not specifying the years. And they want of the order of 30% of that 180 to be maths. (Hmm let me see if I can get a maths teacher to help me with that.)
We'll say 55 credits.

So, looking at my transcripts, firstly at pure maths courses, I have

AM1023 - Mechanics - 5
MA1007 - Maths - 5
AM2023 - Laplace - 5
AM2024 - Fourier - 5
AM2031 - OOP and numerical methods - 5
MA2013 - Maths - 5
ST2036 - Stats - 5
AM3022 - EM Field Theory - 5

That's 40 credits, leaving me short 15 credits.
(see next post)

clartharlear

Let's say that these mathsY subjects are of the order of 30% maths content to make up the 15 credits.

EE3001 Control Engineering 10
Module Content: Classical Control: Principles of control; Modelling and simulation; Frequency and time responses; Properties of feedback; Stability-Routh-Hurwitz, Nyquist; Relative Stability; Design of compensaters in the frequency domain; Root Locus design; PID controllers - tuning; Practical issues - cascade control, windup, etc. Digital Control: Sampling, aliasing, Shannon's Theorem; Z transform and the discrete transfer function; Hold circuits; Stability and design in the Z domain; Digital PID controllers; Practical issues, DAC, ADC, etc.
EE3009 RF Circuit Theory 5
Learning Outcomes: On successful completion of this module, students should be able to:
• Use the lumped element equivalent circuit model of a transmission line to derive relationships between the primary (i.e. R, L, G and C) and secondary (i.e. characteristic impedance and propagation constant) line constants.
• Formulate and solve phasor-based equations governing, for example, the input impedance, SWR, incident, reflected and total voltages and currents at arbitrary locations in both lossless and lossy transmission lines with load termination Zl.
• Deduce the S-parameters for one and two port circuits via phasor-based analysis of the appropriately terminated circuits.
• Deduce and apply, using Mason's Signal Flow rules or algebraic manipulation, specified circuit ratios (e.g. effective input/output reflection coefficients, voltage gain, transducer and operating power gains etc.) to characterise linear two port networks.
• Employ the Smith chart to graphically estimate such parameters as reflection coefficients, impedances and standing wave ratios of lossy and lossless transmission line circuits.
EE3010 Analogue and Digital Signal Processing 10
Module Content: Analogue Signal Analysis - Application of Fourier Series and Fourier Transforms; s-plane analysis and Design methods; Transient responses - relationship to poles, etc.; Frequency response; Filter design; Common Filter Types - Butterworth, Chebyshev, Bessel, Elliptic, Active network synthesis with ideal op-amps; Design of Passive Networks for Filter Implementation. Digital Signal Analysis - Application of Discrete Time Fourier Series and Fourier Transforms; Analogue to Digital Conversion; Shannon Sampling Theorem; Linear Time Invariant Systems; FIR Filter design - Frequency Sampling and Windows Method.

4th year

EE4002 Control Engineering 5
Learning Outcomes: On successful completion of this module, students should be able to:
· Correctly specify sampling rates and anti-aliasing filters for digital control applications.
Analyse the dynamics of discrete and mixed signal systems.
Implement digital controllers through emulation
· Design digital controllers using inverse model, root-locus and polynomial pole-placement techniques.
· identify discrete time models from experimental data, using the least square algorithm.
· Develop an adaptive controller based on the recursive least squares algorithm and the polynomial pole-placement cotnrol scheme.
· Model and simulate basic nonlinear dynamic processes. Linearise a nonlinear system to obtain a state-space model. Analyse the dynamics of a state-space process.
· Utilise state space theory for : conversion of state-space models to transfer functions and vice-versa; transforming state-space models into other representations; solve for the state trajectory; determine the transition matrix; convert a continuous model into a discrete time model.
EE4004 Telecommunications 5
Module Content: Digital communications; PCM, ADM, FSK, DPSK, QAM; ATM; ISDN; MPEG; DVB; Source coding techniques; Error control coding; Line codes; Statistical decision theory; Digital modulation and detection techniques: Signal space concepts, Correlation and matched filter receivers, Single symbol detection of known signals in AWGN
EE4008 Digital Signal Processing 5
Learning Outcomes: On successful completion of this module, students should be able to:
· Understand the limitations of the Discrete Fourier Transform and derive its implementation through the Fast Fourier Transform.
· Use the Z-Transform for the analysis and design of Infinite Impulse Response Filters.
· Determine the performance of classical methods of Spectral Estimation.
· Determine the spectrum using Parametric spectral estimation methods.
EE4009 Mechatronics and Industrial Automation 5
Learning Outcomes: On successful completion of this module, students should be able to:
· Analyze a wide variety of previously unseen robotic structures including frame assignment and forward kinematic analysis, principally for the purpose of hand matrix derivation.
· Develop inverse kinematic equations and perform numerical solutions of inverse kinematics problems for robotic structures.
EE4010 Electrical Power Systems 5
Module Content: Overview of electrical power supply systems. Energy sources. Generation, transmission and distribution of electrical energy. Three-phase ac circuit theory, network equations and power flow. Unbalanced three-phase systems. Symmetrical components and sequence networks. Synchronous generators: torque equation and equivalent circuit, real and reactive power flow. Power transformers: equivalent circuit, per-unit theory, three-phase and auto- transformers, Transmission lines and faults: symmetrical and asymmetrical faults, protection, utility/consumer interface: loads, wiring, protection, system modeling

clartharlear

Also:
ME3001 Mech Eng 10

UE3003 Analogue IC 10
Module Content: Current mirrors; inverters; differential gain stages; 2-stage CMOS op amps; frequency response; static and dynamic behaviour of long-channel CMOS transistors; threshold voltage-shift; noise margin; parasitic capacitances; SPICE parameters; propogation delay; layout; DRC and LVS; power consumption and speed limit of CMOS processe

ME4001 5
Learning Outcomes: On successful completion of this module, students should be able to:
· Economic appraisals of investments-comparing investments and the replacement of equipment using discounted cash flow methods.
· Reliability analysis: understand and calculate parameters in reliability distributions and reliability analysis.
· Network analysis:-calculating critical paths and other quantities, carry out resource allocations and costing using CPM and PERT
· OR: Formulate and solve linear programming problems
· Materials management:- Modeling and calculating EOQ, production range, reorder levels and safety stocks for deterministic and probabilistic conditions. Understand MRP and JIT methods
· Quality control: calculate control limits for variables and attributes, calculate acceptance sampling parameters, use of Taguchi methods in quality control.
· Work study: understand the concepts of method study and time study.

ME4002 5

UE 4001 5
Module Content: CMOS integrated circuit concepts and design techniques. Identification of parasitic elements. Analysis of propagation behaviour. Speed limitations of a CMOS process. Design of cell library components for maximum speed, minimum area, minimum power or maximum noise margin. Buffering techniques to enable extraction of high speed signals driving high capacitive loads close to the process speed-floor. CMOS architectures and synthesis of transistor circuits for generation of Boolean functions. Karnaugh map rule-set specific for pass-gate array architectures. Design of sequential circuits, array multipliers and finite state machines. IC design methodology

They were pretty mathsy too!

Derek M

It is quite staggering alright. They just point blank don't want to listen. The hardest thing to stomach is that they have the last say.

Without a teaching number from them, it is very hard to find employment and impossible to get onto the graded salary scale.

They are basically saying that although the various engineering subjects are mathematically based, they are not the type of maths they are looking for. They have told me that the Maths I studied in Engineering in not the LC Maths. It doesn't say this in any of their documentation and it takes so long to get any responses from them that many people are left in limbo.

But the funny side is that now after almost completing my so called 'catch -up' year in Maths I can say that not all the topics I am currently studying are on the LC course either.

I do not see why engineers (post PGDE) cannot register for the teaching of Applied Mathematics. Engineering is in essence the application of Maths. The subjects is intended to help students who go on to study engineering and on a rather comical note, some of the teacher training inservices for Applied Mathematics teachers are given by...you guessed it!!! Engineers.

In my opinion they will not register us as Applied Maths teachers because it sounds ridiculous to register somebody for Applied Mathematics and not Mathematics.

Unfortunately it seems to be a losing battle trying to deal with the TC. The whole process has dragged on for almost two years for me. The worst part is when I eventually get my Teachers number I will have to start paying them €90 per year for the privilage!!!

Miss Lockhart

clartharlear wrote: »

 The study of Mathematics as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period

So, each year is worth 60 credits, so they want at least 180 credits, not specifying the years. And they want of the order of 30% of that 180 to be maths. (Hmm let me see if I can get a maths teacher to help me with that.)

UCC Electical Engineering is 4 years long at 60 credits per year - so 240 credits. The TC would require 30% maths content - so that would actually be 72 credits. They would not accept 55 credits from a 240 credit degree (even though 55 credits is 55 credits, surely!) - I know because I have had this problem with them myself.

I really hope all of you can get something done about this ridiculous situation though. Anybody can see that engineering should allow you to teach maths! I sympathise with your troubles dealing with the TC - they are the most incompetent organisation I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. Good luck!

clartharlear

I know really. Just idle wishing and hoping on my part!

dan_d

Lads,
Thinking about this over the weekend, and also speaking to a teacher about it - you need to challenge them on it.
Until very recently, this was not a problem. Now all of a sudden it is. They need to introduce a system here - if they were telling you (AND it's on their website) that it was okay until Feb, to teach maths with an eng degree, but suddenly it isn't, then they are not being consistent. Furthermore they cannot just implement a blanket ban, considering some people have the H.Dip since before they implemented this ban.If that's the way they are going they should be pulling a lot of current teachers out of schools, who don't have maths degrees. What they should be doing is implementing a cut off date....if you have you HDip prior to the..31st Dec 09, then okay you can teach. After that, we are reviewing the system.

At the end of the day, they are civil servants, who firstly obviously don't understand half the degrees coming out of colleges, and secondly, are fire fighting since there is suddenly a lot of attention on maths.

If you started your HDIp when ot was their policy that it was acceptable to teach with an eng degree, then as far as I can see you've a leg to stand on. Challenge them on it...and keep challenging them. If nothing else, force them into a position where they have to draw up a consistent set of guidelines. Send letters to papers, to Eng Irel, to the ASTI and the TUI...theres another article in yesterdays papers with the ASTI backing engineers to teach. Make a noise. Don't just sit back and accept it. They are in the wrong, not you.

Tim Robbins

Derek M wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I came across your thread and said I would give you all some info on my experience.

Absolutely incredible. I got a A in honours Maths a long time ago and went on to do Engineering. The maths in Engineering is far more complex and you should easily be able to teach Maths at any level with your degree.

clartharlear

dan_d wrote: »

theres another article in yesterdays papers with the ASTI backing engineers to teach.

Which paper is this? You don't have any links to an online article do you? AFAIK, ASTI have never mentioned the engineer/maths issue, just the teaching of maths in general.

http://www.businessandleadership.com/news/article/21485/leadership/maths-teaching-needs-to-change-engineers-warn

“Engineers Ireland has undertaken a thorough review of the current framework in this area and key actions now necessary include greater resourcing of the Project Maths initiative, the requirement for teachers to have specific education qualifications in maths and the sciences to teach these subjects, as well as tax breaks for teacher retraining.

“Engineers Ireland is currently working with the Department to convert these actions into real change and ensure more engineers are graduating to meet the needs of the Smart Economy,” Power added.

Derek M

Hi dan

I fought with the TC long and hard over this. I was onto the ASTI, the applied mathematical teachers association, my department here at Uni and the Dean of Engineering here at NUIG. Nothing helped. Maybe I should have went further (Batt O'Keefe when he was minister or something or the media) but to be honest the process was so drawn out that I felt I needed to rectify the situation for myself as soon as possible. I had a part-time job offer and you need TC registration to be correctly employed.

AT the end of the day the TC has the last word, the government has passed on all responsibility with teacher registration to them. They say who has the correct subjects and to what level. They look at things in black and white and obviously do not understand the content of some of the degrees coming out of the uni's. They told me that they were going to take the Eng degrees off the approvals list but they didn't.

To get approval your degree needs to be on the list and must satisfy individual subject criteria i.e. that mathematics is major subject (30%) of you degree. They argue that we do not have the correct mathematics to satisfy this requirement. It's not true and I tried to prove them otherwise through their appeals system but failed.

I agree that the TC needs to be forced on this issue; it is affecting too many people.

TheDriver

and at the moment, they won't because there is plenty of people out there who are qualified in the eyes of the TC to teach Maths and no need to fill any shortages.

MathsManiac

But the teachers you are referring to are not registered with the council as teachers of mathematics. The problem is that you can register with the council as a teacher of business studies, biology, or whatever, and then, once you're employed in the school, the principal can assign you classes in other subjects, such as mathematics.

Therefore, your assertion that, when registering maths teachers, the council prefers these people to engineering graduates does not hold water.

TheDriver

One thing which is creeping into this thread which concerns me to be honest is the lack of distinction between being good at Maths and being good at teaching Maths. Teaching is about being able to motivate the kids, control discipline and able to get them to be able to do Maths. Being s**t hot at Maths yourself is irrelevant and there are plenty of brilliant teachers out there who are great at the subjects they teach. I just hope that some of ye don't roll into staffrooms claiming how no one is properly qualified because anyone like that who has come into my school thinking their s**t doesn't smell doesn't last too long. I sympathise with those of ye who have completed the Dip on a false promise but that doesn't mean that others should be shoved out of jobs that they are doing very well. It seems the engineers of Ireland want to throw their toys out of the pram about Maths qualifications when maybe they should start from scratch and get the TC to recognise engineers in the first place.