Engineering / teaching maths

clartharlear

OK, I might have been exaggerating slightly for the effect of showing what idiots the TC are, but it was really unnecessary when they couldn't tell that someone with a degree in MATHEMATICAL science could teach maths. ffs

I have to step out of this thread again. I am generally an extremely calm person, but thoughts of the TC give me the rage.

millix

I heard back after approx 11 weeks. BE elec degree does not meet etc etc, for either maths or applied maths. Must do further study to close gap ....

can apply for second independent assessment at further cost of 75 per subject

so clartharlear's case appears to be the exception

interesting to hear of any other applicants

M

awny

mine took 16 weeks, that was earlier this year!

clartharlear

millix wrote: »

I heard back after approx 11 weeks. BE elec degree does not meet etc etc, for either maths or applied maths. Must do further study to close gap ....

can apply for second independent assessment at further cost of 75 per subject

so clartharlear's case appears to be the exception

interesting to hear of any other applicants

M

the word exception implies there is a rule, rather than random ****witted incompetence.

the key word arbitrary, i'd say.

Sean Mac Giolla Iasachta

I am not personally happy about the situation described here, as it looks as though one of my career options (as a recently unemployed engineer) is harder to get into than I expected.

However, when I examine my conscience, I realise that ability in mathematics is not sufficient for a job in teaching. If Maths is as important as everyone says it is, then we need quality teachers, and there must be standards.

If the criterion for admission to the teaching profession (as a maths teacher) was that your degree should have the word maths in the title, what would that produce???

Engineers Ireland imposes similar restrictions. If you have an IEI-accredited degree, you are OK. If not, however well qualified you are (in Physics, say), and however well respected as a practising professional, they will be after you to jump additional hurdles to get your CEng.

It is hard to see what else the bureaucrats can do. They can't just let anybody in, on their own say-so.

One possibility: let Eng Ireland get accreditation for a conversion course for engineers, producing qualified maths teachers. <mod>Insult removed.</mod>

millix

not sure what you're trying to say here, and your last sentence makes me reach for the "ignore" button

M

Sean Mac Giolla Iasachta wrote: »

I am not personally happy about the situation described here, as it looks as though one of my career options (as a recently unemployed engineer) is harder to get into than I expected.

However, when I examine my conscience, I realise that ability in mathematics is not sufficient for a job in teaching. If Maths is as important as everyone says it is, then we need quality teachers, and there must be standards.

If the criterion for admission to the teaching profession (as a maths teacher) was that your degree should have the word maths in the title, what would that produce???

Engineers Ireland imposes similar restrictions. If you have an IEI-accredited degree, you are OK. If not, however well qualified you are (in Physics, say), and however well respected as a practising professional, they will be after you to jump additional hurdles to get your CEng.

It is hard to see what else the bureaucrats can do. They can't just let anybody in, on their own say-so.

One possibility: let Eng Ireland get accreditation for a conversion course for engineers, producing qualified maths teachers. <mod edit>

spurious

millix wrote: »

not sure what you're trying to say here, and your last sentence makes me reach for the "ignore" button

M

Agreed.
However low a person's posting record is, insulting other members will not be tolerated.
Please read the charter.
Consider this a warning, Sean Mac Giolla Iasachta.

monkeerina

Anyone know of anyone who did the above course and was okayed by the Teaching Council? Coz I've a place next year but def not wasting my time if I'm just going to be told I can't teach next year...I'll do a dip now this year and get that out of the way first!
Any advice would be much appreciated....

Curveball

Hi Guys,

I have read through all the posts in this form. Yes indeed we are been left in limbo land with regards eligibility for accreditation.

We can apply alright and get our primary degree assessed for what subjects we intend on been eligible to teach.

We are all banging our heads off the wall wondering how and why the teaching council cannot post a list of what degree is accreditated to teach whatever subject.

It really is baffling and extremely irritating.

I too have secured and accepted a place for the pgde in NUIG starting Sept 3rd this year. My primary degree is a BE Civil Degree from Nuig. Can anyone tell what subjects that accredits me to teach without me going through the whole hulabuloo, cost and annoyance of submitting an application to find out.

During my time as a civil engineer I have also practiced in depth 3d design and I am also proficient in the use of drafting software. Surely one would think that I would have the ability and know how and relevant backgroung to teach tech drawing.

If anyone else is in a similar position as me I would like to hear from you.

Thanks

TheDriver

Curveball wrote: »

During my time as a civil engineer I have also practiced in depth 3d design and I am also proficient in the use of drafting software. Surely one would think that I would have the ability and know how and relevant backgroung to teach tech drawing.

Can't help you about your subjects but I would like to add that experience in a subject matters squat unfortunately much the same as someone from the Gaeltacht can't teach Irish. Its down to criteria for each subject and whether you have fulfilled it.

Miss Lockhart

Curveball wrote: »

My primary degree is a BE Civil Degree from Nuig. Can anyone tell what subjects that accredits me to teach without me going through the whole hulabuloo, cost and annoyance of submitting an application to find out.

This is the list of automatically qualifying degrees:

http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_Publications/Autoquals_updated_16th_April_2010_59583648.pdf

It lists the subjects you can teach with each degree. (Note, apparantly there are cases where the TC have revoked recognition of degrees which were previously eligible)

If your degree is not on the list you have to apply for assessment of your degree. This costs €200, requires an incredible amount of documentation (which can be extremely difficult to get hold of) and can take a long time.


I see that the "Bachelor of Engineering" from NUIG is listed as eligible for teaching Maths and Applied Maths. However, I think somebody has posted here before saying that there is no such thing as just a "Bachelor of Engineering" - that it is always Civil, or Electrical or whatever, and that the TC are failing to recognise these degrees (as stupid as it may seem).

Good luck!

clartharlear

That's an old (pre TC) list from the Dept of Education. The TC is not bound to uphold it because it is just a guideline and their secondary requirements (the 30% stuff) takes precedence.

Curveball

Anyone with a civil engineering degree from NUIG as their primary and sole degree upon which accreditation was given to teach Maths and Applied Maths?


Anyone with the BEng Civil degree from NUIG applied for accreditation this year?

Derek M

Hi Curveball,

I don't have a BE in Civil but do have a BE in Biomedical Engineering from NUIG. If you search through this thread you'll a few posts I made about my trouble with the Teaching Council.

In my opinion they will not recognise you for any subjects. Sorry to be the one to say it but they appear to not like the BE from Nuig. It is on the approved list but they now say that it does not satisfy the general subject requirements.

The BE degrees from Nuig only have pure maths and applied maths in the 1st two years. This is not sufficient for the TC. They do not seem to recognise the mathematical content of other subjects in 3rd and 4th year.

You will more than likely have to submit documentation to try to prove the mathematical content of you 3rd and 4th year subjects. I did this (and my subjects were mathematically based) but the TC did not aggree. They refused to recognise me for any subjects.

In the end I had to undertake further study (this year) to make up the so called shortfall. It was the final year of a degree program in Maths from NUIG.

Hopefully you will not have to go this far. Get in touch with TC (email is best, they don't answer the phones much) and get the process stated asap, it can take a long time. I am over 2 years dealing with them at this stage.

When you submit your documentation make sure it is extensive (Lecture notes, exam papers and solutions) to try to prove the mathematical content of your degree. It will be hard to come by but you will just have to harass lectures and professors and maybe go through your old notes.

Feel free to get in touch with me if want to go through it in more detail. Like I said though hopefully they will see sense and realise that your degree is sufficient.

D

selwyn

I dont understand what the problem is with the TC. Ive an Honours Degree in Mechanical Engineering from DIT and I had no problems whatsoever getting recognised. I have a certificate saying I can teach Maths, Physics/Science and I.T. And I'd say if I pushed it I'd get Applied Maths too. Now they're saying similar Engineers aren't qualifiied??? Its a load of crap.

Whats more, you'd think with an Engineering degree that we'd also be able to teach Engineering and Technology...but no. Ridiculous! They're a Mickey Mouse organisation who love to take people's money.

manicmonoliths

Seems like a lot of hassle to be honest, surely anyone with a third level degree in Engineering or the likes should be immediately eligible to teach Maths and Applied Maths. Obviously there's no course that's simply just a re-hash of the Leaving Cert syllabus, there definitely needs to be more leeway given (or just applying common sense by the sound of it!)

Just on the Business teacher's teaching Maths point, I'm currently studying Economics in TCD, entering into my final year and I've considered doing the PGDE and would hope to be eligible to teach Maths, my degree has pretty strong mathematics modules (though nowhere near as complex as the Engineerging degrees obviously) with a strong emphasis on calculus and matrix algebra and also has extensive statistical components (which the new Project Maths syllabus seems to have a greater emphasis on.) I've also given grinds for 3 years. Given this and that I got A's in both Maths and Applied Maths in the Leaving Cert, do people who've gone through this before think I'd be approved by the TC to teach Maths? Obviously there is a lot of uncertainty about their decisions, they almost seem to be made on a case by case basis.

selwyn

Whatever about Engineering and Science, I know theres some uncertainty about certain Business degrees WRT teaching Maths. Ive heard a few teachers telling me they weren't recognised. But thats not to say that your not competant in teaching Maths or that a principal wont ask you to teach Maths when you get your foot in the door with your business subjects.
Unfortunately the TC wont take grinds and your own leaving cert results into account when recognising you. Or Masters/PhD degress for that matter. Its all about your primary degree. Absolutely ridiculous so it is. Common sense really should take over in those sort of situations.

Curveball

Hi Derek,

Thanks for your reply. Its a pity you could not have carried out both the PGDE and final maths course concurrently. I say that without knowing if this was a possibility, or maybe the TC could have informed all that this was the only way you get accreditation.

How do you apply to carry out the final year maths course and examinations? I expect you would contact the mathematics department, state your case and ask them if they could include you in the course.

I am starting in NUIG on Sept 3 this year and maybe there is someway I could do both courses if required, final maths in Arts and the PGDE. Is there also a possibility that I could be accredited to teach maths with a BE Civil.?

Also anyone carried out final arts in another subject i.e. physics concurrently with the PGDE in order to get accredited in that subject.

I guess the only way is to submit transcripts, exam papers, course content material etc. to find out for sure.

Any help would be great.

paulg127

Hi Guys,

I am hoping to do the PGDE in Sept in UCC and have a BE Mechanical NUIG 2001.
I know a NUIG Civ Eng graduate from the same year who was recognised for Applied Maths this year and is now teaching Maths, he started teaching in 2006.
Does anyone know what the situation is for NUIG Mechanical Eng?
Thanks to all for the previous info

selwyn

I know a guy who done Mechanical Engineering in NUIG but he's not qualified to teach Maths. He is however qualified to teach Metalwork, Tech Graphics/DCG, Technology and Engineering because he done a specialised Technology hDip.
Its worth keeping in mind that all Engineering/Construction/Architecture etc graduates can apply for this hDip in Technology/Construction Education in University of Limerick. Im thinking of doing it in the next year or two to broaden my subject range. Even those of you who were told that your not recognised to teach Maths etc, heres another opportunity for you to enter into teaching. Check out the link below...
Now that i think of it, i heard someone say that anyone who completes this hDip/PGDE can teach Maths to Higher level Juniro Cert. I could be wrong though.

http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Services/Research/Graduate_School/Prospective_Students/Graduate_Programmes/Taught_Programmes/Education_&_Health_Sciences/Technology

clartharlear

Dear god, that's appalling.
They better not try to take away my maths qualification again!!!

And, physics is a subject THEY say I'm not qualified at all to teach, and my students who got their results today scored WAY above the national average.

Derek M

Hi Guys,

To answer some questions first.

paulg27 - I have the BE in Biomed from NUIG (as you know it's very similar in Mathematical content to Mech) I was not allowed to register to teach any subject. The Teaching Council had particular problems with engineering degrees from NUIG as the only had Maths/Applied Maths in the subject title in the 1st two years.

Curveball - I never attempted to do the Maths degree along with the PGDE. It took the TC so long to get back to me that I had completed the PGDE. I don't know how possible it would be, you would miss a lot of lectures while on placement and some exams could clash. But it would be worth checking out. I contacted the Maths department directly and undertook the final year of the Mathematical Studies program.

Annoyed83 - The TC would not recognise me to teach any subjects at all. Hence I went back to further study. I would have been happy to be registered for Applied Maths as that would have been sufficient for me. I just needed a teacher’s number in order to secure my job. It's comical to register someone for Applied Maths and not Maths.

I need to get some answers from the TC (although they won't answer their bloody phones!!!) It cost me 4k to do my course along with a lot of lost earnings from my school as I had to turn down the offer of extra classes/hours due to lectures etc... It took me 2 years and 4 mths to finally get registered with the TC an absolute ridiculous amount of time in anyone’s book. If the TC are now allowing Engineers from NUIG to register as Applied Maths teachers, they have just wasted a year of my life and cost me something close to €10k in total!!!

One last thing I am now registered to teach Maths and Applied Maths even though the extra study I undertook did not contain any Applied Maths. So I obviously already had sufficient Applied Maths content. The TC just point blank refused to recognise me!

selwyn

The TC are a shower of ****. Theres no consitancy in that organisation at all. For example...I was applying for a permanent Technology and Maths job (im recognised for Maths by the way) and i wanted to know if i could get recognised for Technology. I told them that i looked at the syllabus and i have covered absolutely everything during my Mech Engineering degree. I asked would i be wasting my time (and money) putting in an application for subject recognition, i.e. would i get turned down. They said to me that i probably would due to the fact that my PGDE only covered methodolgies and Teaching practice for Maths and ICT. I replied to them saying 'hold on a second, im recognised to teach Physics and Science, yet i didnt do the methodologies/teaching practice for these. So why shouldnt this logic apply for Technology too'? They then replied saying Technoogy is a specialised subject with practical elements and project work using specialised equipment.....to which i replied once more, 'so is Science and Physics'. They couldnt give a reply to this. Absolute crap so it is.

I think its an absolute joke that i cant teach Engineering and Technology even though ive first hand experience at using Manufacturing processes (Welding, Lathe/Drill/Milling Machines etc) but yet they'll allow to teach a subject (Science) that uses highly dangerous chemicals which i had NO EXPERIENCE in using/handling!!!! Figure that one out!

Sorry to get off the point of Maths, but i had to rant about the TC!

monkeerina

I am extremely worried from reading the latest news on this thread.

Does anyone have clarification as to whether it is 54 (i.e. 30% over 3 years) or 80 credits that one needs in order to teach maths? And if 54, can they be from the first 3 years?

I just started the PGDE in UCD yesterday. The TC wrote back to me today saying that they would immediately recognise 7 modules (35 credits) but that I'd need to submit an application to see if they'd recognise me for any more. They weren't clear as to whether this was for maths or applied maths, even though I'd asked just about maths....

Anyway, basically I wasn't able to secure a placement in Applied Maths in a school, so was planning on just teaching Maths and then another subject (maybe science) which I obviously won't be recognised for by the TC. I was hoping that I'd be recognised for maths. But from what I'm reading here the TC are now only recognising engineering graduates for applied maths?

Do you need to have done your teaching placement in applied maths in order that the TC recognise you? If so then I may as well quit now and do the hdip in actuarial science I've been accepted to....

If anyone has any helpful info it really would be so much appreciated...I'm so so lost here, and UCD can't help me at all obviously...

clartharlear

It's 30% of everything you've done, whether that's 4 years of 18 lectures a week, or 3 years of 6 lectures a week.
Teaching placement means absolutely nothing.

I had two interviews this week for physics positions and the principals just shut down when they saw I was registered for maths and applied maths, but not physics.

selwyn

Monkeerina....where did ya do your Degree? Also, I would suggest go ahead with the PGDE and submit the application. Best case scenario, they'll recognise ya for one or both subjects. Worst case, they wont recognise ya for anything, BUT they have to tell ya how you can get up to speed (in their eyes) for the subject(s) and ya may have to sit a semester doin some sort of Maths lectures or something. It sucks but if your dead serious about entering into teaching then sitting a few extra lectures in Maths aint gonna kill ya.It'll be worth it in the end though.

clartharlear...Sorry to hear your interviews werent succesful. Were just chancing your arm when you put in your CV and didnt mention that the TC didnt recognise ya for physics?

clartharlear

Weren't we under the impression that as long as you were registered for at least one subject with the TC, that's all that mattered?
I'd be fascinated to see all those Religion, CSPE, and computer studies degrees for a start...

I actually applied for maths/applied maths positions, but was called to interview for physics/maths, presumably based on my physics teaching experience.

selwyn

Did you have on your CV that you were registered for Maths/Applied Maths only. Cos if that was the case, then thats bad management by the the school for calling you for a physics interview and then suddenly realising that your not officially qualified to teach it.

With regard to the computer studies degree thing, im actually officially recognised to teach computer studies. Most of the DIT Engineering degrees are recognised to teach it.

monkeerina

selwyn wrote: »

Monkeerina....where did ya do your Degree? Also, I would suggest go ahead with the PGDE and submit the application. Best case scenario, they'll recognise ya for one or both subjects. Worst case, they wont recognise ya for anything, BUT they have to tell ya how you can get up to speed (in their eyes) for the subject(s) and ya may have to sit a semester doin some sort of Maths lectures or something. It sucks but if your dead serious about entering into teaching then sitting a few extra lectures in Maths aint gonna kill ya.It'll be worth it in the end though.

Did my degree in UCD - Civil. One semester would be grand, but currently they're saying that I didn't do any relevant maths modules as unforuntaely all my maths modules have 'mathematics for engineers' in the title...which makes these pure maths modules applied maths modules in their eyes...sigh....

god I've pretty much always wanted to be a teacher but they are making it so so hard...

selwyn

Well if you've always wanted to be a teacher then id suggest definitely stick at it and do whatever they ask ya to do (within reason of course!). Concentrate on the PGDE (piece of cake so it is) and get it out of the way then do whatever maths modules they tell ya to do. You may even be able to do it concurrently with the PGDE in UCD if its only one or two semesters of Maths that they require ya to do. I know a few people on my PGDE that were doing Maths modules and the PGDE at the same time. Either way best of luck with it all.