Exam Results - Delayed (Mod Warning: Post #383 & #420)

Sully

shapez wrote: »

I beg to differ. I could have picked the Campus Times up anywhere in the Main Campus, IT Building, T&L Building in the last 2 days. In fact there are untouched bunches of the Campus Times in the common areas of the T&L Building & IT Building.

They were removed this morning from Cork Road. So unless they were replaced since but they were originally removed.

MitchKoobski

Matt Cooper mentioned it last night for a brief few seconds but moved on, but as of today the story made RTE teletext.

Thats about as famous as you get folks!

dlofnep

Can have exam results plx?

My understanding is that most lecturers have marked most of the papers, but aren't allowed to release the results - rather than, are refusing to mark the papers.

beegirl

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

RTE dont seem to be in any doubt about who the guilty party are

Ah yes, taking a press release from WIT and repeating it word for word - RTE really are the height of investigative journalism aren't they :rolleyes:

Sully

beegirl wrote: »

Ah yes, taking a press release from WIT and repeating it word for word - RTE really are the height of investigative journalism aren't they :rolleyes:

That's what the union are claiming but the press release isn't floating around for people to view and see if they did or not. If they did, bit lazy journalism from RTE.

Dasher7

I reckon if ye all went 2 class and spent less time moaning then ye wouldnt have to worry about whether ye passed the exams .............if ye put in the effort, went to class and studied then ye have nothing to worry about do ye????

But no bitch and whinge about the lecturers that have spent 6-8 years studying and researching for the privileage. hmmmm!!

stick-dan

Well if you spent more time reading the rules of the forum you'd know to attack posts and not posters,

SO SOD OFF!!!!!
Bloody cheek.
I've yet to miss a class so don't talk ****e.

Nananananana nanananana hey hey hey goodbye.

dlofnep

Dasher7 wrote: »

I reckon if ye all went 2 class and spent less time moaning then ye wouldnt have to worry about whether ye passed the exams .............if ye put in the effort, went to class and studied then ye have nothing to worry about do ye????

But no bitch and whinge about the lecturers that have spent 6-8 years studying and researching for the privileage. hmmmm!!

Um - I've never failed an exam since I started college and I've applied for a masters in DCU. It would be beneficial for me to know my results, so that I know whether or not I'm on for a 2.1, as I need to forward on my results for all exams taken thus far.

It has nothing to do with going to class or not going to class.

Dasher7

Lets face it the people that hold the answers to the results are really the key players at WIT(heads of DEPT) not the lecturers they sign off on all the paperwork, this issue didnt come about today or yesterday either it has been ongoing for a long time and as for no knowing the rules of the boards and who to reply to!!! Gosh I am a novice(silly me)

look at the end of the day I have a life, a some what good one with a PHD and a lecturers post to boot(not in WIT) in TCD so I am not concerned with little students throwing their toys out of their pram, the people that are serial moaners on this board are the ones that won't get very far in life(you know who you are) but good luck to the ones who genuinely just want their results for academic purposes, I understand your concerns,I really do, what you could do is ask individual lecturers for an average result and this will give you a better idea of how you will fair out!

Clano

Dasher7 wrote: »

what you could do is ask individual lecturers for an average result and this will give you a better idea of how you will fair out!

Yeah because none of us thought of that:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Oh how you have enlightned us oh master

beegirl

Dasher7 wrote: »

look at the end of the day I have a life, a some what good one with a PHD and a lecturers post to boot(not in WIT) in TCD so I am not concerned with little students throwing their toys out of their pram

Oh god please shut up. No wonder people have a bad impression of lecturers and public sector workers in general.

alpha2zulu

Dasher7 wrote: »

look at the end of the day I have a life, a some what good one with a PHD and a lecturers post to boot(not in WIT) in TCD so I am not concerned with little students throwing their toys out of their pram

Well lads looks like we upset the TUI Dublin branch...

At the end of the day the future employment of 4th years,a majority of whom are not even working this year,are being held to ransom by TUI shop stewards and about half the lecturers given the opinions that some of them have expressed privately to us. All we want is to be given the same chance of starting our careers as anybody from any other college or University. Is that really too much to ask for from the TUI?

Its partcularly pathetic given that these same lecturers are earning anything up to 104k plus State pension contributions per annum. You might ask why we arent up in arms with WIT management...well its because they aint the ones holding on to the green n' whites.

stick-dan

Dasher7 wrote: »

Lets face it the people that hold the answers to the results are really the key players at WIT(heads of DEPT) not the lecturers they sign off on all the paperwork, this issue didnt come about today or yesterday either it has been ongoing for a long time and as for no knowing the rules of the boards and who to reply to!!! Gosh I am a novice(silly me)

look at the end of the day I have a life, a some what good one with a PHD and a lecturers post to boot(not in WIT) in TCD so I am not concerned with little students throwing their toys out of their pram, the people that are serial moaners on this board are the ones that won't get very far in life(you know who you are) but good luck to the ones who genuinely just want their results for academic purposes, I understand your concerns,I really do, what you could do is ask individual lecturers for an average result and this will give you a better idea of how you will fair out!

You infuriate me for so many reasons, how can you, a lecturer/phd whatever you are calling yourself come in here from an outside college and breach the bible about what we should be doing for ourselves, how we should be attenting classes etc. With NO DUE RESPECT you appear to be a pompous idiot looking your nose down on us for the highlighted reason in your post above.

I've already asked my lecturers for my results and responses i got back were word for word.
"I'm really sorry but I can't"
"No way not a hope, best regards"
Don't come on here preaching the bloody odds.

What use will getting an average be for me?
I need my result, I'm beginning to plan my life external to college from september, I want to be in the market for the best jobs and they all require up to date results. Sorry must I complete a phd before you look at me as an equal rather than some squatty little nerd on a computer giving out about average results.

I genuinely want my result and if you are referring to me as a serial moaner then F()CK RIGHT OFF. There's a lot of people on here who will do just as good as you did and more than likely even better. We only graduating now, give another few years we could be your boss, mr high and mighty.Don't ever tell me or anyone I wont get far in life, i'd rather live unemployed in poverty that have a stuck up attitude your showing.

@mod - sorry went overboard with language, was to get across point, he has no right coming in here mouthing about a dispute that doesnt concern him.

thecorkroad

Dasher7 wrote: »

Lets face it the people that hold the answers to the results are really the key players at WIT(heads of DEPT) not the lecturers they sign off on all the paperwork, this issue didnt come about today or yesterday either it has been ongoing for a long time and as for no knowing the rules of the boards and who to reply to!!! Gosh I am a novice(silly me)

look at the end of the day I have a life, a some what good one with a PHD and a lecturers post to boot(not in WIT) in TCD so I am not concerned with little students throwing their toys out of their pram, the people that are serial moaners on this board are the ones that won't get very far in life(you know who you are) but good luck to the ones who genuinely just want their results for academic purposes, I understand your concerns,I really do, what you could do is ask individual lecturers for an average result and this will give you a better idea of how you will fair out!

Typical post from a chap associated with the filth that is Trinity college. This has nothin to do with you chieftain, if you're not concerned about little students throwing their toys out of their pram then don't bother your hole reading/commenting on this thread. **** off home to the UK with your filthy protestant attitude.

Sully

Mod Note:
Okay folks, lets all take a breather for a moment. No need for things to get out of hand or for getting angry towards others. If you feel like loosing the cool with someone, best to just ignore them or walk away for a while rather then replying. The usual Boards.ie and Forum Charter rules do still apply here, for everyone.

So lets keep the discussion ongoing, civil and as peaceful as possible please.

Thanks.

Clano

Any updates lately sul???? heard the union are given the reps daily updates or something??

alpha2zulu

Clano wrote: »

Any updates lately sul???? heard the union are given the reps daily updates or something??

This has been put up on the WITSU site.

Class Rep Council will be held @ 5pm Monday 1 February in the Main Auditorium.

No decisions have been made regarding strikes/protests etc. UNTIL that meeting!

Please express your opinion to your Class Rep about what YOU want YOUR Union to do & ask them to drop it in to your SU office before 5pm today Thursday, so we can get options ready for discussion and decision at Mondays meeting.

We remain in contact with both the TUI and the College and will continue to bring you developments as they occur.

If you require any further information please call into your SU Office.

Regards,
WITSU Sabbatical Officers

and from the FB page theirs a meeting Tomorrow afternoon between WITSU and TUI so hopefully we might hear some news tomorrow.

*** ATTENTION WIT STUDENTS! Please ensure that you, or someone from your Class calls into our Offices before 5pm with a plan from your class regarding the current TUI-WIT Dispute. WITSU will hold an executive meeting at 12pm tomorrow and will be meeting with the TUI at 2.30pm. STUDENTS INPUT IS VITAL. ***

Clano

yeah i saw that alpha, dosent tell us much do:mad::mad:
i suppose well have to wait til monday to find out anything

jonsey

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

Its partcularly pathetic given that these same lecturers are earning anything up to 104k plus State pension contributions per annum. You might ask why we arent up in arms with WIT management...well its because they aint the ones holding on to the green n' whites.

Do you know how many lecturers are earning this amount or how many years a lecturer has to work to earn that sort of salary. It's like saying that people in the public sector should put up with higher taxes because they can earn up to €10m a year. Why does it have nothing to do with the management just because the lecturers have the green and whites. Why not blame the management for either making the "mistake" in the first place, cutting the fees without negotiation and contrary to the official grievance procedure, issuing press releases with blatant lies and for all the money that was wasted by the management over the last few years. Also not all lecturers are of the same opinion (I know one of mine isn't anyway and it's unlikely that he is the only one).

When some posters say that our fees go towards paying for exams to be corrected then they are wrong. Exam payments come form the government. Our fees go to the registrars office. When Feb 2nd comes and we don't get our results then why not go down to the registrars office and ask them where the results are - the processing of exam results is what they deal with. Also, instead of worrying about lecturer's salaries why not ask who released the press release yesterday (before the balot was even completed!). The answer is the college's PR company. Why aren't we up in arms about all the money the college gives to that company?

I want my results as much as the next person but I can see where the lecturers are coming from and who knows what is really going on behind the scenes. The college have more funds to throw at PR so we generally get their side and our lecturers are an easy target as we rarely see "the management" as they are in their cosy offices hiding from all of this. Also, is there any policy on this board about editing posts that are completely factually incorrect such as the one saying that lecturers get €25 per script? A lot of people on here are intelligent and also read the whole thread but others will dip in and will take a figure like that at face value and spread false facts. It's akin to rumours about immigrants getting thousands of euro towards a new car that used to circulate years ago. When people hear controversial things like that they can spread like wildfire and people are often not interested in the truth when it comes out. It leads to things like that facebook page which doesn't do us any favours as it aggressively and unfairly attacks all lecturers. I hope none of lecturers see what some of their students are saying - the said students might wish they never got their results.

Sully

Clano wrote: »

yeah i saw that alpha, dosent tell us much do:mad::mad:
i suppose well have to wait til monday to find out anything

Any action that WITSU is to take must be voted on by the Class Rep Council. So, at the moment, they are bound by the original vote to do nothing until voted on again. The next vote will be on Monday and reps were asked to contact their classes and ask them what action they wanted taken, then go back to WITSU with the information. Therefore, options will be ready to be voted on at the EGM on Monday.

alpha2zulu

jonsey wrote: »

Do you know how many lecturers are earning this amount or how many years a lecturer has to work to earn that sort of salary.

It would be relatively few and would need at least 20-25
years of service I would imagine which is why I said up to 104k in earnings. It's fact!


Its there to provide context of how a few measly euro in pay are holding the final year students to ransom


As am sure your aware the handy TUI increments chart illustrates the stepped progress up the payscale based on your postion. Make of it what you will.
Every few years you climb up the levels. http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI_News_Special_Jan_2010.pdf

SALARY SCALES IN
INSTITUTES OF TECHNOLOGY
wef 1/1/10
Assistant Lecturer 1/1/10

1 €39,715 5 €45,568
2 €41,320 6 €46,878
3 €42,960 7 €48,190
4 €44,256 8 €49,487

College Teacher

1 €37,016 9 €50,629
2 €38,657 10 €52,313
3 €40,304 11 €54,000
4 €41,941 12 €56,209
5 €43,602 13 €58,419
6 €45,242 14 €60,157
7 €46,882 15 €64,052
8 €48,532 16 €65,837

Lecturer Scale 1

1 €47,620 7 €65,467
2 €49,932 8 €67,516
3 €51,824 9 €69,563
4 €53,741 10 €71,613
5 €56,144 11 €73,669
6 €63,363

Lecturer Scale/L2

1 €53,607 7 €74,848
2 €56,121 8 €77,086
3 €65,889 9 €79,322
4 €68,118 10 €81,570
5 €70,351 11 €83,811
6 €72,594
Long Service Increments
LSI 1 €2,284
LSI 2 €1,916

Senior Lecturer I

1 €74,006 5 €83,734
2 €86,441 6 €86,160
3 €78,866 7 €88,598
4 €81,307 8 €91,021

Senior Lecturer Scale II

1 €76,407 6 €88,021
2 €78,732 7 €90,341
3 €81,051 8 €92,666
4 €83,375 9 €94,984
5 €85,701 10 €97,520

Senior Lecturer III

1 €82,014 6 €95,971
2 €84,804 7 €98,973
3 €87,596 8 €101,787
4 €90,389 9 €104,770
5 €93,180

Asst Lecturer Hourly
Part Time Rate @ 1/1/10

€63.04

It leads to things like that facebook page which doesn't do us any favours as it aggressively and unfairly attacks all lecturers. I hope none of lecturers see what some of their students are saying - the said students might wish they never got their results.

I don't see whats aggresive about the FB group, its merely posing a question and is useful in keeping students up to date on whats going on. The debate on the site is pretty tame considering some of the views out there.

Also, instead of worrying about lecturer's salaries why not ask who released the press release yesterday (before the balot was even completed!). The answer is the college's PR company. Why aren't we up in arms about all the money the college gives to that company?

I'd imagine the PR expenses are nothing compared to the salarys needed to lecture 10000 or so full time students. Every college needs some sort of PR machine. The battle to encourage school leavers to come here is just like any business really
Wthout the current level of students you can be sure the lecturer count would be reduced too.

beegirl

As people keep posting up that list of salaries I would like to point out that a lot of lecturers don't have full-time contracts... so some of your lecturers might be on the very lowest point of the Assistant Lecturer scale, earning, for example, a third of the salary if they do a third of the full-time hours. I think people assume that all their lecturers have money coming out their ears which is not true.

I am only saying this to clarify the point that not all lecturers are automatically on great money, not to try and say that they should be paid for the exam marking!

jonsey

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

I'd imagine the PR expenses are nothing compared to the salarys needed to lecture 10000 or so full time students. Every college needs some sort of PR machine. The battle to encourage school leavers to come here is just like any business really
Wthout the current level of students you can be sure the lecturer count would be reduced too.

[/FONT][/FONT]

Obviously the lecturing costs would be more than the PR costs but that's because teaching is the main job for a college. My marketing lecturer (who I won't name) said that the college spent €1.3m on PR consultants and a similar amount on advertising eventhough that lecturer and some of their colleagues offered to devise a campaign free of charge. I'm sure some of them have good experience of working in the real world and would have the expertise to do the job. It's hard to know the effectiveness of tv and radio ads anyway when most people going to WIT are from the nearby region and would probably be more swayed by the lecturer who went to visit them (as they did to my school) and their career guidance. I was only using PR anyway as an example of the amount of money spent by the college over the last few years. Money spent on the new card readers in the library and other waste is one reason why the college say they can't afford to pay for exam corrections at the current rate. How about the money spent on webct eventhough moodle (free of charge) was available all along. When times were good they threw money at things (partly in the hope of getting university status) and now that the $hit has hit the fan they're trying to take it off the lecturers who have already taken a few hits (I know nobody will feel sorry for them but they're not all earning phenomenal salaries).

Regarding the facebook page I think the language used and the attitude that all lecturers are **** etc isn't helpful imo. I know that lecturers can earn €104,000 but you'd probably have to be there for close to 30 years and I'd say someone with a masters or phd and 30 years experience would be earning a similar amount. A friend of mine who lectures part time said that the exam payment is only the start of things that the college are trying to change in the contracts and they want to set a precedent. They want to extend opening hours (as mentionned several times in this thread), reduce hours given for course leadership roles and reduce the double-weighting on masters hours, which if it comes in will probably mean that some of the better lecturers will not want to teach the masters courses.

alpha2zulu

jonsey wrote: »

A friend of mine who lectures part time said that the exam payment is only the start of things that the college are trying to change in the contracts and they want to set a precedent. They want to extend opening hours (as mentionned several times in this thread), reduce hours given for course leadership roles and reduce the double-weighting on masters hours, which if it comes in will probably mean that some of the better lecturers will not want to teach the masters courses.

If they want to do something about these alledged proposals to extend hours etc, its a battle for another day. Its a cop-out to try and snowball in other issues into what is purely a dispute involving withholding the results. I'm guessing your not a final year student because I guarantee you we have a lot more to worry about rather than

that the college are trying to change in the contracts and they want to set a precedent

because they have a job guaranteed for next year in almost all cases...we don't! What do you expect us to say....that everything the TUI has done to hold us to ransom is a-ok because the WIT broke a precedent! Nonsense.

To show the kind of two faced hypocrisy of the TUI in this dispute, you just need to look at the "concern" of the WIT TUI branch secretary for the plight of the unemployed last month:

Branch Secretary Kathleen Moore Walsh says the budget will undoubtedly lead to more unemployment in the private sector in Waterford.
http://www.wlrfm.com/tabId/503/itemId/3432/pageId/3/TUI-members-at-WIT-say-the-cuts-in-public-sector.aspx

Yet just over a month later the mask has very much slipped. The employment opportunities of 1700 final year/masters students are being held as pawns in a dispute which is essntially over "precedence" and a 8euro payment per student on top of the salarys outlined above and pension contributions by the Government.

The TUI position is a total joke, but I aint laughing...

lugha

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

She and her shop stewards are holding the employment opportunities of 1700 final year/masters students as pawns in a dispute which is essntially over "precedence" and a 8euro payment per student on top of the salarys outlined above and pension contributions by the Government.

Slightly OT but could somebody explain why exactly it is important for final year students to have their results? I read up thread that in some cases they will be asked for them in job interviews and such. But how does this work for applicants who are in non-semesterized college, who presumably have no results to cite until they get their overall qualification at the end of the academic year? Or are such students at a disadvantage in this respect?

dlofnep

lugha wrote: »

Slightly OT but could somebody explain why exactly it is important for final year students to have their results? I read up thread that in some cases they will be asked for them in job interviews and such. But how does this work for applicants who are in non-semesterized college, who presumably have no results to cite until they get their overall qualification at the end of the academic year? Or are such students at a disadvantage in this respect?

I applied for my masters and they want all my results for exams taken thus far. It would be nice to know if I'm in line for a 2.1 or not though - and whether I need to quit work to make up for it. I'm hoping I have done well, but you can never tell with some lecturers.

alpha2zulu

As predicted the TUI branch secrtary has launched a rebuttle to the negative publicity of the last few days.
http://www.wlrfm.com/tabId/503/itemId/3602/TUI-says-it-was-never-consulted-about-changes-to-e.aspx

Saturday, January 30th 2010
The Teachers Union of Ireland branch at WIT says it was never consulted about changes to exam payment rates.
Students at Waterford Institute of Technology will not receive their exam results on Tuesday as expected because of a dispute between lecturers and the college.
Teachers Union of Ireland members at the Institute have voted overwhelmingly in favour of industrial action after the college attempted to cut the amount of money they are paid to correct exams
They have agreed not to turn in exam rates, draft future exams or mark future exams until the situation is resolved.
TUI Branch Secretary Kathleen Moore Walsh says in October 2009 the institute slashed the exam marking rate without any consultation with them.
"We asked back in October what this decision was based upon and we were told three specific things and one of those was the fact that other rates were being paid at other institutes of technology. We've called around institutes and the issue is different in each institute. We were the first institute to go completely to semesterisation five years ago at that point all it said in the circular from the department was that the rate should be pro-rata. There has been no determination as to what pro-rata means and nationally this issue is on the agenda to be discussed. WIT unilaterally slashed it and we have found that the rates are all over the place at the other institutes"
She says they were not informed of any administrative error which resulted them in being paid too much to correct exams.
"For work we had done in June and September they retrospectively slashed it. We filed a grievance and began working through our grievance procedure on this issue when in December WIT decided it didn't want to be bound by this agreement when it stepped outside this agreement, that's what's caused the problem at this point.

However the last line of her monologue to WLR is the most telling of how pathetic the actions of the TUI is in all this....pretty much confirming its not about the 8 euro fee but rather breaking certain 'grievance procedures'

You know, we didn't want to drag the students into this and if we were within our grievance procedure no other party would be involved in this at all"

Hopefully all the class reps will bear this nonsense from the TUI and the branch secretary in mind when it comes to decideing what action to take next week. The TUI cant seem to see past the fact that students are potentially facing a salary of 0k next year as a result of the bully boy tactics employed and imposed on regular TUI members by the TUI Waterford top brass. If that is not a reasonable 'grievance' by students I dont know what is.

Bear in mind also the regular lecturers were balloted for industrial action...not whether or not to hold students futures to ransom. I very much doubt the figure 84% percent support among lecturers who voted would have held.

Ahem!

A lot of pretty incoherent posts on this thread. Most of them emanating from one source, however, it has to be said.

Alpha, just a couple of questions?

What exactly do you think a grievance procedure is? And what's it for?

Secondly, do you really believe that a you can have a ballot for 'industrial action' that doesn't clearly state what the proposed action is?

alpha2zulu

Ahem! wrote: »

Alpha, just a couple of questions?
What exactly do you think a grievance procedure is? And what's it for?

Whats this, an exam question??

Secondly, do you really believe that a you can have a ballot for 'industrial action' that doesn't clearly state what the proposed action is?

Happens all the time. Union vote on industrial action, then union heads decide on what action they deem appropiate. Many examples of it available with a quick Google.;)

A lot of pretty incoherent posts on this thread.

Well to those of us who are more than

Ahem! wrote: »

just a concerned third party

in this dispute and have a direct interest in this, much of what I wrote will make perfect sense.

Ahem!

Well, I guess you better hope it's not an exam question - as you blatantly haven't much of a clue!

The answer is kinda in the name, however. It's a procedure for settling grievances......And what have you got here, prior to all the industrial actions, sabre-rattling and spleen venting?

In fact, if you were to think for a moment (yes, that's think! It's what's supposed to take place between your reading and reacting!) about some of the information that's already in the public domain, much of it actually quoted in your own posts above, then you might realise that what you have here is a fairly primitive example of the species.

As you quote above, for example, the matter of payment rests, it seems, upon competing interpretations of the dept. of education insistence that payment for marking exams now be adjusted on a pro-rata basis.

Management have interpreted this to mean 50% (that's about half Alpha!?!) due to the fact that WIT have moved to a modularised system that now exams students twice, rather than once, a year. On the other hand, and given that the TUI, as quoted in your own post Alpha, don't seem to be raising any objections to the pro-rata idea (just its interpretation) they are likely to be asking for something closer to 66% (two thirds!) due to the fact that assessment has typically moved from a single 3 hour exam model to two x two hour assessments.

If that isn't a basis for discussion then frankly I don't know what is? For all intents and purposes, and assuming an original rate of 8e, you are talking about a difference between the parties of 1.28e. If you can't negotiate that down, through the grievance procedure, and split the difference at somewhere around 60c then I''l readily admit your not a reactionary halfwit Alpha!

As it stands, however, the question is why is this not happening?

Well, it's not happening because management have refused to abide by the grievance procedure. And why have they done that? Well, theories abound.

What's clear to any sane and reasonable person, however, is that its got nothing to do with cash. An extra 60c per script is hardly going to necessitate the threatened cuts to essential services.

Nor has it got anything to do with the TUI being able to drag this out for years as Sully asserted above (again in seemingly perfect ignorance of the procedures!) Let me make it clear: There is simply no provision in the procedure that would allow for that to happen! The procedure is, after all, the designated means by which cases exactly such as this are meant to be settled - it is HOW stuff gets fixed, and is a binding process of escalation (if necessary) that terminates at the LRC.

The problems you have now are a classic example of what happens when you step outside of such procedures - i.e. industrial action, instransigence and collatoral damage.


**In relation to the second question Alpha I'm afraid to say you also failed that. ICTU action, or similar, may occasionally be deliberately vague, but the action outlined in relation to exams by the local TUI Branch representative in your post would have had to be written in the ballot forms handed out to all who voted.** Sorry to burst another conspiracy theory.........You happen to know who killed JFK though?????