Exam Results - Delayed (Mod Warning: Post #383 & #420)

alpha2zulu

Same old alpha..just a temp login!

Sully wrote: »

So right now we have the situation where both parties are refusing to come to an agreement, leaving our results hidden from us. At the meeting yesterday, it was agreed that the SU would call on both sides to resolve the matter before our results are originally due (Feb. 2nd) or else they will go public on the matter (such as local and national press, protests and the like). This statement (3 pages) was drawn up last night and submitted to both the TUI and College management. It is not available in the public and only in the SU office.

But like why should we wait until Feb 2nd to make an impact with this, at that stage another 2 weeks have passed and even if class boards started around then it would be at least another 3 or 4 weeks before class boards are all scheduled and results inputted on the website etc.

For us final year students thats just not good enough to be put in a position in an interview where if the question of your latest results come up, you have to start waffling about TUI union issues...thats the last bloody thing you need when your trying to carve out a job for yourself with maybe another 50 lads in the interview queue behind you! The last set of results for many 4th year classes who had work placements in semester 2 of third year,are from Dec 2008 exams.

Many people in our class are absolutely livid with being pawns in the middle of this and I doubt they will all stay quiet until Fed 2nd either! I really cant see why a email lobbying campaign shouldn’t be started now. The more people know about it, the more ridiculous the lecturers’ stance looks considering how many of their salarys including pensions are within a whisker of six figures while their students are cant even get minimum wage jobs. In many disputes its when the public turn against one side,only then does the talking start...just look at the public sector strike last December, it was the teachers in Coppers in Dublin and heading to Newry the next day that broke that camels back of public opinion.

In all of this I keep bearing in mind that WITSU backed the lecturer strike coming up to the exams because they they are in ICTU and claimed worry about damage to education , so the impression I'm getting is the gang dont want to rock the boat...which isent much use to the 4th years!! In my opinion loseing clubs and socs/Chart/medical centre funding is much more of a threat to student life rather than whether the lecturer gets that new car this year or next.And then the WITSU have the cheek to suggest we all go on strike come Feb 2nd as if thats going to solve anything!Do a sit in, make some noise, whatever but dragging 4th years out of class as a strategy is shooting yourself in the foot.

Are they working in the interest of the majority of students in this dispute because amongst the general student body there is no appetite for pandering to each side for another 2 weeks.

Sully

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

Same old alpha..just a temp login!

Lost access to your old address?

But like why should we wait until Feb 2nd to make an impact with this, at that stage another 2 weeks have passed and even if class boards started around then it would be at least another 3 or 4 weeks before class boards are all scheduled and results inputted on the website etc.

I see your point, I do, however the class council (made of up of class reps voted in by students) voted that the SU gave them a time frame to sort themselves out in rather then going in head first and making a mess of everything.

I'm not happy either but I think this approach was the best starter approach. They have a time frame to conclude their talks properly and if they fail - then we, the students, come out in force and make a big deal about it.

Public perception of the strike was not great - going public over this is probably the last thing they want.

For us final year students thats just not good enough to be put in a position in an interview where if the question of your latest results come up, you have to start waffling about TUI union issues...thats the last bloody thing you need when your trying to carve out a job for yourself with maybe another 50 lads in the interview queue behind you! The last set of results for many 4th year classes who had work placements in semester 2 of third year,are from Dec 2008 exams.

We can only hope it does not come to that. I seriously doubt it will tbh.

Many people in our class are absolutely livid with being pawns in the middle of this and I doubt they will all stay quiet until Fed 2nd either! I really cant see why a email lobbying campaign shouldn’t be started now. The more people know about it, the more ridiculous the lecturers’ stance looks considering how many of their salarys including pensions are within a whisker of six figures while their students are cant even get minimum wage jobs. In many disputes its when the public turn against one side,only then does the talking start...just look at the public sector strike last December, it was the teachers in Coppers in Dublin and heading to Newry the next day that broke that camels back of public opinion.

Its what the reps decided and there was about 100 or so in attendance. There is a large article on this in Mondays Campus Times, so it will raise awareness within the college if people read it. (Article should be front page).

In all of this I keep bearing in mind that WITSU backed the lecturer strike coming up to the exams because they they are in ICTU and worried about damage to education , so the impression I'm getting is the gang dont want to rock the boat...which isent much use to the 4th years!! And then they have the cheek to suggest we all go on strike come Feb 2nd as if thats going to solve anything!Do a sit in, make some noise, whatever but dragging 4th years out of class as a strategy is shooting yourself in the foot.Are they working in the interest of the majority of students in this dispute because amongst the general student body there is no appetite for pandering to each side for another 2 weeks.

Once again, it was not the WITSU team who decided on this. A number of ideas were put forward and it was decided by a clear majority to sit it out. If you dont want to go out on a protest about the problems - then dont.

alpha2zulu

Sully wrote: »

Public perception of the strike was not great - going public over this is probably the last thing they want.

Since its pretty much the only card that the students have I really cant seem the harm from our point of view of playing it now. Even if not going public just yet, contacting the TUI branch secretary en masse is surely a starting point to show we mean business.

We can only hope it does not come to that. I seriously doubt it will tbh.

I 'd rather not take the chance to be honest. Four years of work potentially in jeopordy primarily because of a few shop stewards on a power trip...no thanks!

Once again, it was not the WITSU team who decided on this. A number of ideas were put forward and it was decided by a clear majority to sit it out. If you dont want to go out on a protest about the problems - then dont

That may be the case but I can tell you with the reaction amongst our class that was not the general majority consensus! If the union dont represent the majority of their members well then maybe its time to fight our own corner on this. While we may have all become WITSU members automatically, surely we can decide to leave it aswell.


This thread is a masterclass on how to run a campaign and get results http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055372962&page=90

Ahem!

Just a few things you may wish to consider.

And despite what was suggested above, I'm not an apologist for the Union. Just a concerned third party with an interest in where this may end up further down the line......But hey, that's kinda irrelevant.

It's important to remember, I think, that there are always two sides to a dispute, and it takes a significant degree of intransigence on both those sides to land you in the position your in. In attempting to get it resolved in your favour, thererfore, it might be instructive to consider the source of both sides' intransigence, and to locate the path of least resistance. In this case, from what I know, this mightn't necessarily be the Union.

Here's the story, as far as I've been able to ascertain it in fact (rather than by speculataion on here btw!!), and like I said before it's not got too much to do with the issue of pay: Several years ago a national (that's important folks!) grievance procedure was agreed upon by management and Unions. An important part of this procedure is what's called the status quo ante. This is a handy bit of procedure which basically means that in the case of a grievance between management and staff arising, the situation will remain as it was prior to the grievance arising, until such time as the grievance is resolved through the other stages of the previously agreed upon grievance procedure. It is basically a piece of legislation designed to stop the employer making arbitrary or unilateral changes to the employees terms of employment or customary practices without due consultation, while also avoiding the escalation of every minor dispute into industrial action at the drop of a hat. Quite a sensible piece of legislation, you might think!

Anyway, in the case of WIT, management decided back before Christmas to cut the rate of pay lecturers received for marking exams by half, and to do this retrospectively - that is in relation to Summer and repeat exam scripts that had been marked a number of months before. Despite what other people have claimed on here, it is also less than clear whether WIT had been overpaying, as IoT's around the country pay various rates depending on local agreements, some pay the WIT rate, some pay less, but there is no nationally agreed rate - another source of contention!

The Union thus initiated the grievance procedure and invoked the status quo ante with regard to payment for these previously marked scripts. The Union's claim is that, to date, management have failed to respond to this by abiding by the status quo ante, offering only a deal which, the Union claims, operates outside the terms of that previous agreement.

The Union's primary issue and concern is thus one of precedent. That is, if management are not forced back into the terms of the grievance procedure, as they claim they were previously agreed, and, importantly, if they are not made to respect the status quo ante then that agreement won't any longer be worth the paper it's written on. That is, as the Union see it, the flood gates will be opened with regards to other changes to their terms of employment and customary work practices. They are already, I believe, in discussion with management in regard to a number of other proposed changes to work practices within the college, and they might immediately lose ground in those should this precedent be set.

The union's intransigence thus stems from rather more than the potential loss of a (relatively) small amount of income. For most lecturers you are probably talking about a couple of hundred euro per year. Hardly worth all this! Given that we're talking about a nationally agreed grievance procedure, precedent would also potentially be set for other IoT's, so I expect they are getting pressure there too!

Anway (and apologies for the length of this post), you might want to ask yourself a few questions! For instance, what have management got to lose by engaging with the grievance procedure, as opposed to the Unions conceding to the management's unilateral decision? Who's gonna be easier to cave-in, for you guys, in other words?

Also, imagine that he Union's suspicions are right, why might management have chosen this issue to try and set precedent? What reaction could be expected from the students? And where might any pressure they exert be expected to be applied? When was the last time you saw a member of senior management, for instance, never mind shared a classroom with one?

Also, whose interests are more closely interwoven with the students? And what implications would the loss of the status quo ante have for the students? What about these other changes coming down the line? Do you fancy sitting in lectures at 8am, or 6pm? Or what about if time allocated to lecturers to supervise students, teach postgrad courses, run tutorials or practicals were impacted? And what about extended industrial action as both sides struggle over the implementation of every little change?......

The answers to these questions are up to you, but while it might be fashionable at the moment to bash Unions, applying pressure only to them and not to senior management --- some of whom, lest we forget, recently spent c. E150 euro refurbishing their offices, while parts of the college, populated by both lecturers and students on a daily basis, remain pretty close to unfit for purpose (leaking roofs, unsanitary toilets, no heating, or projecting equipment, not to mention the libraries!!!) --- might actually reduce your chances of getting this settled in the short or medium term.

Sleep well!

stick-dan

Ahem! wrote: »

Just a few things you may wish to consider.

And despite what was suggested above, I'm not an apologist for the Union. Just a concerned third party with an interest in where this may end up further down the line......But hey, that's kinda irrelevant.

It's important to remember, I think, that there are always two sides to a dispute, and it takes a significant degree of intransigence on both those sides to land you in the position your in. In attempting to get it resolved in your favour, thererfore, it might be instructive to consider the source of both sides' intransigence, and to locate the path of least resistance. In this case, from what I know, this mightn't necessarily be the Union.

Here's the story, as far as I've been able to ascertain it in fact (rather than by speculataion on here btw!!), and like I said before it's not got too much to do with the issue of pay: Several years ago a national (that's important folks!) grievance procedure was agreed upon by management and Unions. An important part of this procedure is what's called the status quo ante. This is a handy bit of procedure which basically means that in the case of a grievance between management and staff arising, the situation will remain as it was prior to the grievance arising, until such time as the grievance is resolved through the other stages of the previously agreed upon grievance procedure. It is basically a piece of legislation designed to stop the employer making arbitrary or unilateral changes to the employees terms of employment or customary practices without due consultation, while also avoiding the escalation of every minor dispute into industrial action at the drop of a hat. Quite a sensible piece of legislation, you might think!

Anyway, in the case of WIT, management decided back before Christmas to cut the rate of pay lecturers received for marking exams by half, and to do this retrospectively - that is in relation to Summer and repeat exam scripts that had been marked a number of months before. Despite what other people have claimed on here, it is also less than clear whether WIT had been overpaying, as IoT's around the country pay various rates depending on local agreements, some pay the WIT rate, some pay less, but there is no nationally agreed rate - another source of contention!

The Union thus initiated the grievance procedure and invoked the status quo ante with regard to payment for these previously marked scripts. The Union's claim is that, to date, management have failed to respond to this by abiding by the status quo ante, offering only a deal which, the Union claims, operates outside the terms of that previous agreement.

The Union's primary issue and concern is thus one of precedent. That is, if management are not forced back into the terms of the grievance procedure, as they claim they were previously agreed, and, importantly, if they are not made to respect the status quo ante then that agreement won't any longer be worth the paper it's written on. That is, as the Union see it, the flood gates will be opened with regards to other changes to their terms of employment and customary work practices. They are already, I believe, in discussion with management in regard to a number of other proposed changes to work practices within the college, and they might immediately lose ground in those should this precedent be set.

The union's intransigence thus stems from rather more than the potential loss of a (relatively) small amount of income. For most lecturers you are probably talking about a couple of hundred euro per year. Hardly worth all this! Given that we're talking about a nationally agreed grievance procedure, precedent would also potentially be set for other IoT's, so I expect they are getting pressure there too!

Anway (and apologies for the length of this post), you might want to ask yourself a few questions! For instance, what have management got to lose by engaging with the grievance procedure, as opposed to the Unions conceding to the management's unilateral decision? Who's gonna be easier to cave-in, for you guys, in other words?

Also, imagine that he Union's suspicions are right, why might management have chosen this issue to try and set precedent? What reaction could be expected from the students? And where might any pressure they exert be expected to be applied? When was the last time you saw a member of senior management, for instance, never mind shared a classroom with one?

Also, whose interests are more closely interwoven with the students? And what implications would the loss of the status quo ante have for the students? What about these other changes coming down the line? Do you fancy sitting in lectures at 8am, or 6pm? Or what about if time allocated to lecturers to supervise students, teach postgrad courses, run tutorials or practicals were impacted? And what about extended industrial action as both sides struggle over the implementation of every little change?......

The answers to these questions are up to you, but while it might be fashionable at the moment to bash Unions, applying pressure only to them and not to senior management --- some of whom, lest we forget, recently spent c. E150 euro refurbishing their offices, while parts of the college, populated by both lecturers and students on a daily basis, remain pretty close to unfit for purpose (leaking roofs, unsanitary toilets, no heating, or projecting equipment, not to mention the libraries!!!) --- might actually reduce your chances of getting this settled in the short or medium term.

Sleep well!

With the greatest respect possible, you post gives the impression of a heavily propaganda'd post, at least in my opinion. It comes across that you are insinuating that the college have planned to come out looking innocent and the victims of a horrid recession and they banked on students backing them as the lesser evil in this dispute that is denying us our results. This being the case in my opinion places you on the side of the lecturers on this so you are in a sense trying to belittle the college. It's as easy to poke holes in the standard of lecturing in the college just as easy as it is for you to poke holes at problems in the college that exist in every other institute. Lecturer's frequently don't turn up for classes, are not adequately prepared and do not provide necessary resources for students. Don't go down the low route of identifying irrelevant problems to the current situation. After all, a leaking roof is not going to affect our results, and it is also important to note the college has brilliant plans in the pipeline for improving the college to a state of the art standard.

That's enough of that back on track now. No need to be off topic.This is a thread I would love to see go on through on track and discussed intellectually.

I know one thing I will leave you with though ahem, and I speak for a lot of students i know at this present state of time. The tactics being used, by which essentially make the students the pawns of this dispute,has served only to lower the opinion of the lecturers among the students and has only served to lower the respect we have for our lecturers.

shanemul

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

In all of this I keep bearing in mind that WITSU backed the lecturer strike coming up to the exams because they they are in ICTU and claimed worry about damage to education , so the impression I'm getting is the gang dont want to rock the boat...which isent much use to the 4th years!! In my opinion loseing clubs and socs/Chart/medical centre funding is much more of a threat to student life rather than whether the lecturer gets that new car this year or next.And then the WITSU have the cheek to suggest we all go on strike come Feb 2nd as if thats going to solve anything!Do a sit in, make some noise, whatever but dragging 4th years out of class as a strategy is shooting yourself in the foot.

alpha_2_zulu can you show me where WITSU went out and back the lecturers as from my understanding this is the First time they have made a reaction to any industrial action in WIT. The 3 sabaticial officers cannot support or condem any events without approval of the Majority of class reps

Sully

Ahem! wrote: »

Here's the story, as far as I've been able to ascertain it in fact (rather than by speculataion on here btw!!),

Hello and welcome to Boards.ie Firstly, I would like to point out that any posts from myself or stick-dan as of yesterday are fully accurate. There is no speculation and they are complete facts unless otherwise stated. Your post, which I will quote below, seems to repeat more or less what I have stated.

and like I said before it's not got too much to do with the issue of pay: Several years ago a national (that's important folks!) grievance procedure was agreed upon by management and Unions. An important part of this procedure is what's called the status quo ante. This is a handy bit of procedure which basically means that in the case of a grievance between management and staff arising, the situation will remain as it was prior to the grievance arising, until such time as the grievance is resolved through the other stages of the previously agreed upon grievance procedure. It is basically a piece of legislation designed to stop the employer making arbitrary or unilateral changes to the employees terms of employment or customary practices without due consultation, while also avoiding the escalation of every minor dispute into industrial action at the drop of a hat. Quite a sensible piece of legislation, you might think!

You have just repeated what I have already said and contradicted that is not over pay. The TUI have asked they be paid back in full and continue to do so. There asking for more money and if they dont get it - they wont give back the results. So please, how is that not really about money?

Also, seeing as the college has stated they can not afford to pay something that never should have been paid - imagine the situation where the TUI and the College follow the procedure outlined years ago, whereby the TUI who created the dispute have the final call on whether to go to the Labour Commission, keep the negotiations ongoing for say a decade before calling on the commission and the college continues to pay out what they can not pay for this length of time. The TUI are happy - there members are getting full pay. The students then suffer as the college makes cut backs elsewhere to get the money they are loosing.

Anyway, in the case of WIT, management decided back before Christmas to cut the rate of pay lecturers received for marking exams by half, and to do this retrospectively - that is in relation to Summer and repeat exam scripts that had been marked a number of months before. Despite what other people have claimed on here, it is also less than clear whether WIT had been overpaying, as IoT's around the country pay various rates depending on local agreements, some pay the WIT rate, some pay less, but there is no nationally agreed rate - another source of contention!

They were informed before the scripts were corrected and they refused to be drawn on the issue (the TUI) because it was their "summer break". Plenty of notice was apparently given to the TUI.

Also, other ITs do not have the same arrangement as WIT. Yes, its not a national agreement but from what we understand the majority split it down the middle or increased it by a sum before splitting. WIT, afaik, are the only college to pay double.

The Union thus initiated the grievance procedure and invoked the status quo ante with regard to payment for these previously marked scripts. The Union's claim is that, to date, management have failed to respond to this by abiding by the status quo ante, offering only a deal which, the Union claims, operates outside the terms of that previous agreement.

Bit selfish and greedy, dont you think? The college should not have been paying it and are saying they can not pay it. TUI could not care less. College back down and agree to pay them in full and then ask the Labour Commission to rule on the matter which they be bound to. The TUI refuse. Why are the TUI refusing to let a 3rd party arbitrator decide what should be paid? Is it right they should be so selfish to hold out student exam results because the college got pissy with them?

The Union's primary issue and concern is thus one of precedent. That is, if management are not forced back into the terms of the grievance procedure, as they claim they were previously agreed, and, importantly, if they are not made to respect the status quo ante then that agreement won't any longer be worth the paper it's written on. That is, as the Union see it, the flood gates will be opened with regards to other changes to their terms of employment and customary work practices. They are already, I believe, in discussion with management in regard to a number of other proposed changes to work practices within the college, and they might immediately lose ground in those should this precedent be set.

This is a typical Unionised statement about "precedent". The agreement is clearly a major problem because it effectively allows the TUI continue allowing lecturers for another 5 years be overpaid for exam paper corrections. Thats a problem and the TUI dont care as long as the lecturers get paid. Negotiations are not getting us anywhere and should not be dragged out - its time for the commission to decide but the TUI wont allow it.

The union's intransigence thus stems from rather more than the potential loss of a (relatively) small amount of income. For most lecturers you are probably talking about a couple of hundred euro per year. Hardly worth all this! Given that we're talking about a nationally agreed grievance procedure, precedent would also potentially be set for other IoT's, so I expect they are getting pressure there too!

As above.

Anway (and apologies for the length of this post), you might want to ask yourself a few questions! For instance, what have management got to lose by engaging with the grievance procedure, as opposed to the Unions conceding to the management's unilateral decision? Who's gonna be easier to cave-in, for you guys, in other words?

Well, if the college caves-in and pays them, we get our results. In the long run, the college suffers and the lecturers are happy because it does not effect them in anyway and they get a nice payment each term they never really should have got. Therefore, its time the procedure was effectively re-written or ignored as its clearly not working. Sorry, but us students have been effectively used and abused by lecturers to demand better pay and its time we stood up for ourselves and got this ****e sorted once and for all.

Also, imagine that he Union's suspicions are right, why might management have chosen this issue to try and set precedent? What reaction could be expected from the students? And where might any pressure they exert be expected to be applied? When was the last time you saw a member of senior management, for instance, never mind shared a classroom with one?

Your union colours are shinning bright my friend! Sadly for you, I think, you will find most students are just so angry and fed up at how lecturers are using them to get what they want in terms of money they wont be thrown around and brainwashed by "Its not our fault, we are just some low paid public service workers higher level management and government are abusing".

Also, whose interests are more closely interwoven with the students? And what implications would the loss of the status quo ante have for the students? What about these other changes coming down the line? Do you fancy sitting in lectures at 8am, or 6pm? Or what about if time allocated to lecturers to supervise students, teach postgrad courses, run tutorials or practicals were impacted? And what about extended industrial action as both sides struggle over the implementation of every little change?......

Oh.. I never thought... Thats it, im with the TUI on this one. They clearly are not looking for extra money and are just looking after us students! My god, I have seen the light! the TUI really do rock! :rolleyes: Sorry but we all know that the lecturers, not all but a lot, concerned about us. The college could not pay for such implications as you mention and any withdrawl of services would be a result of not having enough funding.

The answers to these questions are up to you, but while it might be fashionable at the moment to bash Unions, applying pressure only to them and not to senior management --- some of whom, lest we forget, recently spent c. E150 euro refurbishing their offices, while parts of the college, populated by both lecturers and students on a daily basis, remain pretty close to unfit for purpose (leaking roofs, unsanitary toilets, no heating, or projecting equipment, not to mention the libraries!!!) --- might actually reduce your chances of getting this settled in the short or medium term.

Jesus those union colours are shinning awfully bright there dude. But wait, your not that unionised you said! Weird.

Listen, your more then welcome to come on here and defend the unions and ramble away your "The TUI rock! The college sucks" propaganda. Its a discussion forum. People may or may not support you. As it stands, the TUI have very very very little support and a LOT of angry students against them.

The student body voted not to knock any party but called on both of them basically to get up of their backsides, put aside their greed and selfishness and sort this mess out once and for all through a third party which is made binding. While the facts may look bad on the TUI - facts are facts and if you think you can white wash them with "We are fighting for a bigger issue, but are vocal mostly on pay" like you guys did during the strike (or did you head up to Newry with others?).

At the end of the day, there are some fantastic very helpful, down to earth lecturers who have the interest of their students at heart. Some may side with their union, some may not. Some will side and still do their best for the students. There will be a chunk who are not members at all. Thanks folks, we understand.

But sadly, there are TUI members feeling very strongly (I recall in some colleges verbally abusing students and staff for crossing the picket line during your last strike) and emotionally with not so much the students interest at heart. Some come onto sites like Boards.ie and try white wash the truth and make the college out to be the "baddies". To those, well sorry, but you do not have any support from us.

Sully

shanemul wrote: »

alpha_2_zulu can you show me where WITSU went out and back the lecturers as from my understanding this is the First time they have made a reaction to any industrial action in WIT. The 3 sabaticial officers cannot support or condem any events without approval of the Majority of class reps

Seriously dude, I dont meant to come across rude and excuse me if this does, but ease up on the SU defending. Your sounding a little crazy because your frequently defending them over every small little thing and contributing little else.

Ease up on it

stick-dan

Excellent post sully, would agree with all aspects of it.

Furthermore to my earlier posts, I would like to pose a question to the lecturing staff that have shown a presence here and the others on boards who will no doubt read this. My questions to you are simply this.

Without going into too much detail about our students union meeting, concerns were expressed on adverse effects on students prospects if they do not receive these exam results on time. Fourth year business students stood up and informed the council that they will be asked for their results in interviews they are now taking for jobs and will not be able to provide them, Nurses who will be attempting to gain placement will be hindered by a lack of results, and also final year students such as myself who plan to apply for jobs and not opt to pursue further education into masters( which as it stands looks the furthest thing from appealing because of these events) will be beating around the bush humming and hawing over how the TUI and WIT are in an argument and well i don't have any official results. This was all elaborated on in an earlier post but i want to take it a step further.
I want to ask any lecturers who do read this the following,

How do you feel about the fact that you are possibly going to deprive your students the opportunity of the Jobs they deserve, the ones they have worked hard for?

How do you feel about depriving us of those opportunities in a time where job options are few and far between because of the present climate especially since the fact you are all in employment yourselves, which you all seem to be taking for granted?

You should be ashamed quite honestly. It should be part of the wage you receive to conduct your duties every week to correct a few papers. The fact that you get a separate allowance to correct exams should make you grateful. It's greediness now at this stage. Why aren't you taking the payment you get the first week of January that you are back and take no classes as the payment for correcting exams?A lot of questions need to be answered with regard to that last question in particular.

To reiterate what Sully said, you've no support from me. I've stated i'm disgusted with the situation in class to lecturers and have no problem doing so and I don't care who reads it here either. You've haven't considered us so why should we consider you. True colours are being shown now and it's becoming clear students are being seen as pawns to be used in a bargaining game and little more. If the lecturers of Waterford Institute of Technology care about the student body at all, they have the power to go against their TUI union and change things. The TUI will not budge without that happening.

It's worth noting that even if lecturers were to give out unofficial results that these would be in essence open to change because the exam boards haven't taken place yet so they are essentially useless to us. The only way we will benefit is from a longterm solution.

It's also worth noting that a week where awareness of mental health is being promoted in college, The student body is informed and stressed about the dispute that is effectively going to leave them in limbo for what looks like the unforseeable future.

shanemul

Sully wrote: »

Seriously dude, I dont meant to come across rude and excuse me if this does, but ease up on the SU defending. Your sounding a little crazy because your frequently defending them over every small little thing and contributing little else.
Ease up on it

So let me get this right your telling me to ease up defending the SU when people can come on here and bad mouth them with then unable to defend themselves

stick-dan

shanemul wrote: »

So let me get this right your telling me to ease up defending the SU when people can come on here and bad mouth them with then unable to defend themselves

No shane, he's saying stop putting in short three lines posts defending the union which are not contributing to the overall progression of what is in this case " one of the most important threads" that will ever be in this forum for a select few. You do have a pattern with posting instant support for the union which detracts from the thread. If your going to support them, do so as an addition to a thought out reply to the main topic of the thread. It's all about progression. Can we seriously not derail on this. I want to see who will come back and reply to our questions about the TUI.

alpha2zulu

Ahem! wrote: »

Just a few things you may wish to consider.

And despite what was suggested above, I'm not an apologist for the Union. Just a concerned third party with an interest in where this may end up

Kind of a unhealthy interest for a 3rd party. I've seen enough union speel in my time and that is pretty much what that post was. An example of said propaganda is something like.. http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2009/11/10/story31734.asp

So let me get this right your telling me to ease up defending the SU when people can come on here and bad mouth them with then unable to defend themselves

Well it is a fact Shane what I said yesterday, I'm sure Kathy can clarify for you Monday if you dont beleive me. Besides there was hardly a class rep vote with every press release in the aftermath of Christmas day! The question of where WITSU loyaltys lie is relevant to the debate as for the time being, WITSU are taking a position on behalf of all the students in this dispute, but if when push cames to shove as it did in the pre-xmas dispute, are they going to row back in behind the lecturers again. Nobody can claim it ain't a valid concern, I can tell you now if something similar is done this time there is no way our class are putting up with that.

Also the number of 4th year reps in any class rep council must only be around the 20-25% mark so in any vote are the 1st and 2nd years really have as much at stake if the results are delayed with the result that votes can get through which if they were final year specific would have more trouble getting through.

How do you feel about the fact that you are possibly going to deprive your students the opportunity of the Jobs they deserve, the ones they have worked hard for?

How do you feel about depriving us of those opportunities in a time where job options are few and far between because of the present climate especially since the fact you are all in employment yourselves, which you all seem to be taking for granted?

Thats it summed up perfectly. Why I advocated lobbying the shop stewards/TUI branch secretary for starters is because with our excellent lecturers last term and this , I really cant imagine them holding such a rediculous stance if it was their decision. Its the muppet show further up the chain which is pulling the strings.

Looks like a facebook group on this has come to life. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=439387100496#/group.php?v=info&gid=439387100496


By the way the TUI have a very handy paygrade chart (ex pension contributions by the state) for I.T. lecturers on their website which is helpful to keep in mind.... http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI_News_Special_Jan_2010.pdf

SALARY SCALES IN
INSTITUTES OF TECHNOLOGY
wef 1/1/10
Assistant Lecturer 1/1/10
1 €39,715 5 €45,568
2 €41,320 6 €46,878
3 €42,960 7 €48,190
4 €44,256 8 €49,487

College Teacher
1 €37,016 9 €50,629
2 €38,657 10 €52,313
3 €40,304 11 €54,000
4 €41,941 12 €56,209
5 €43,602 13 €58,419
6 €45,242 14 €60,157
7 €46,882 15 €64,052
8 €48,532 16 €65,837

Lecturer Scale 1
1 €47,620 7 €65,467
2 €49,932 8 €67,516
3 €51,824 9 €69,563
4 €53,741 10 €71,613
5 €56,144 11 €73,669
6 €63,363

Lecturer Scale/L2
1 €53,607 7 €74,848
2 €56,121 8 €77,086
3 €65,889 9 €79,322
4 €68,118 10 €81,570
5 €70,351 11 €83,811
6 €72,594

Long Service Increments
LSI 1 €2,284
LSI 2 €1,916

Senior Lecturer I
1 €74,006 5 €83,734
2 €86,441 6 €86,160
3 €78,866 7 €88,598
4 €81,307 8 €91,021

Senior Lecturer Scale II
1 €76,407 6 €88,021
2 €78,732 7 €90,341
3 €81,051 8 €92,666
4 €83,375 9 €94,984
5 €85,701 10 €97,520

Senior Lecturer III
1 €82,014 6 €95,971
2 €84,804 7 €98,973
3 €87,596 8 €101,787
4 €90,389 9 €104,770
5 €93,180

Asst Lecturer Hourly
Part Time Rate @ 1/1/10
€63.04

Clano

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

By the way the TUI have a very handy paygrade chart (ex pension contributions by the state) for I.T. lecturers on their website which is helpful to keep in mind.... http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/TUI_News_Special_Jan_2010.pdf

OMG thats a ****ing pisstake!!! how do they expect any support from anybody???? I dont think iv been this angry about a topic in a long time!!

Joined the facebook page too

alpha2zulu

Clano wrote: »

OMG thats a ****ing pisstake!!! how do they expect any support from anybody???? I dont think iv been this angry about a topic in a long time!!

Joined the facebook page too

And whats worse,from the same document, is that all the TUI has called for on a national level which would directly affect students is:

SERVICE TO STUDENTS

Sustaining Progress provided for:
Examination rechecks, reviews and appeals.

No member of TUI in any capacity
will handle any recheck, review or
appeal during the Christmas or
Easter break periods or during the period 21st June to 31st August

The WIT TUI branch have basically gone on a solo run... its high time they were brought back down to earth with a bump.

Joined the facebook page too

Good man, we need everybody in it:D

Clano

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

Good man, we need everybody in it:D

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Christ it keeps getting worse with them dosent it!!!!

Yeah i left an angry comment on it too:mad:, well see if we can get overybody on board..........wont be hard:rolleyes:

AdMMM

There simply is no reasoning with unions because their goals and motives are fundamentally selfish and self-serving in nature. Unions do not operate with the big picture in mind and they exist to get the best terms for their members. They couldn't care less about the students welfare. Essential student support services like CHART don't benefit them and therefore fly completely over their heads. To them, it doesn't matter what services have to be withdrawn in order to secure their pay.

As far as unions and negotiations are concerned, common sense never prevails.

alpha2zulu

AdMMM wrote: »

As far as unions and negotiations are concerned, common sense never prevails.

Well almost, the one thing that can knock heads together is bad publicity and the court of public opinion turning against either side in a dispute. In our case its going to be a backlash against the lecturers considering the salaries most of them are on and job security in the middle of the worst recession for decades.

Basically they are holding 4th year’s future careers or master’s applications possibly to ransom over a few hundred quid and some nonsense about WIT breaking some sort of negotiations precedent. Even if one student is put into a compromising position in a job interview because of this, its one to many.

Just look at how quick the unions peeved off the public in the pre xmas ‘day of action’. The beards were back in negotiating the next week and even in the press today they are admitting that that sort of action isn’t an option again. Very same with the Air traffic controllers dispute this week, backed down after 24 hours. Watch out for the result of the British Airways strike ballot in the UK over the next few weeks, it’s going to pretty much fall apart as well. It has parallels with the WIT in that it’s over BA changing negotiation styles with the union over there.

The sooner the students as a whole make a fuss about this or at least make noise in the media the better, otherwise these ‘negotiations’ will just go around in circles for another week.

Clano

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

Well almost, the one thing that can knock heads together is bad publicity and the court of public opinion turning against either side in a dispute. In our case its going to be a backlash against the lecturers considering the salaries most of them are on and job security in the middle of the worst recession for decades.

Basically they are holding 4th year’s future careers or master’s applications possibly to ransom over a few hundred quid and some nonsense about WIT breaking some sort of negotiations precedent. Even if one student is put into a compromising position in a job interview because of this, its one to many.

Just look at how quick the unions peeved off the public in the pre xmas ‘day of action’. The beards were back in negotiating the next week and even in the press today they are admitting that that sort of action isn’t an option again. Very same with the Air traffic controllers dispute this week, backed down after 24 hours. Watch out for the result of the British Airways strike ballot in the UK over the next few weeks, it’s going to pretty much fall apart as well. It has parallels with the WIT in that it’s over BA changing negotiation styles with the union over there.

The sooner the students as a whole make a fuss about this or at least make noise in the media the better, otherwise these ‘negotiations’ will just go around in circles for another week.

I completely aggree with you alpha, how do you think we could achieve this?? Joe duffy, etc??? thats what i was thinking, but the only thing i am worried about is do we have a case if we wernt supposed to get our results until the 2nd anyway?? I'm all for making a fuss about this as im actually sick of it but i would be worried our argument could be torn apart if we went public about this before we were scheduled to get them anyway.... :mad::mad::mad:

as annoying as it may seem we may have to wait until we are officially after being deprived of results, dont get me wrong I want my results this minute as I am going to be sending my cv around very soon, but i can see this being frustrating

alpha2zulu

Clano wrote: »

I completely aggree with you alpha, how do you think we could achieve this?? Joe duffy, etc??? thats what i was thinking, but the only thing i am worried about is do we have a case if we wernt supposed to get our results until the 2nd anyway?? I'm all for making a fuss about this as im actually sick of it but i would be worried our argument could be torn apart if we went public about this before we were scheduled to get them anyway.... :mad::mad::mad:

as annoying as it may seem we may have to wait until we are officially after being deprived of results, dont get me wrong I want my results this minute as I am going to be sending my cv around very soon, but i can see this being frustrating

I'd leave Duffers out but basically CC a mail to as many as possible media organisations for starters once we know theres a few of us mailing. If its just one or two they aint gonna take much notice. Have a quick look at the link for the M9 motorway thread I posted here on the last page.From what happened with that campaign to open the M9 from Carlow-Kilcullen after Noel Dempsey delayed the opening of the road before Christmas, dozens of boardsies mailed all the radio and newspapers and TD's and councillors from all over the south east and they then made contacts with the TD's and councillors involved. All the relevant e-mail addresses for the media are there too.

but the only thing i am worried about is do we have a case if we wernt supposed to get our results until the 2nd anyway??

I dont think so considering in a 'normal' year the exam boards were held as far as I know around the week of Jan 7th before students got back from their holidays (but somebody needs to confirm that) and then the results would be made public 2-3 weeks later. On that basis the results are going to be at least 2-3 weeks late even if it was all resolved tomorrow. For that reason I really feel we need to make a go of it now. All that has happened so far is a letter from WITSU asking both sides to kiss and make up....

I'm all for making a fuss about this as im actually sick of it but i would be worried our argument could be torn apart

From the way I look at hit our argument looks bullet proof, the end result of four years of study and possible employment is being held to ransom over a few hundred quid for lecturers who in many cases are earning north of 80k.

stick-dan

lads, please refrain from doing anything at the moment. I was in the same mind as you until I went to the meeting. The letter has been submitted to both sides giving them a deadline to get things sorted or else the entire student body goes public with this. I think the deadline is the middle of next week, cant remember for definite not feeling the best at the moment.

Please abide by the overall ruling of the student rep council and don't make anything public or mail people before the union makes it public. Both sides need to go past the deadline given before anyone has a right to go public. Remember and this is most important, whether any course/exam boards has taken place yet is irrelevant because as it stands your results are not late so no-one has a leg to stand on.You'll need to be deprived of your results before you could go public. Other wards your argument/protest would be torn to bits.

alpha2zulu

stick-dan wrote: »

lads, please refrain from doing anything at the moment. I was in the same mind as you until I went to the meeting. The letter has been submitted to both sides giving them a deadline to get things sorted or else the entire student body goes public with this. I think the deadline is the middle of next week, cant remember for definite not feeling the best at the moment.

Our rep was of the opinion it was Feb 2nd. The least WITSU could have done is post a message on their facebook or their website telling the masses what exactly they propose and a timeline. Like how much effort would that have taken? The only info the rest of us have to go on is our class reps version of what was said at the meeting and whats been posted here. Basically greedy union, no results, and a inocuous letter from WITSU.

Sully

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

Our rep was of the opinion it was Feb 2nd. The least WITSU could have done is post a message on their facebook or their website telling the masses what exactly they propose and a timeline. Like how much effort would that have taken?

The deadline is Feb. 2nd, which is the date the results were originally planned to go out. As for WITSU going on their Facebook page or whatever - it was voted that this be kept internal so that means Facebook, college paper, local papers etc. would have no official word on the issue.

In addition, it was voted to wait until Feb. 2nd.

At the end of the day - its up to the class reps who attended or bothered their arse to go find out if they failed to attend. They are the ones who are instructed to pass on the message.

Campus Times is out on Tuesday and it has been very well covered.

Clano

Sully wrote: »

it was voted that this be kept internal so that means Facebook, college paper, local papers etc. would have no official word on the issue.


Campus Times is out on Tuesday and it has been very well covered.

how come thats allowed then??? Is it unofficial or something?

Sully

Clano wrote: »

how come thats allowed then??? Is it unofficial or something?

There is nothing official from the Union, in terms of the dispute, in the paper. The paper is independent from the Union.

alpha2zulu

stick-dan wrote: »

Both sides need to go past the deadline given before anyone has a right to go public.

The right to go public? Everybody is allowed to express an opinion and mail whoever they want at any time.

In my experience over the past 4 years the WITSU has been as effective as a 3 legged donkey to be honest with you. This is why when it comes to something as serious as this, I have very little faith in their ability to do anything except cosy up to their ICTU partners again. Fast forward a week, we get a WITSU media statement no doubt sitting on the fence and then asking 4th years to walk out of classes...bravo.:rolleyes:

Sully

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

The right to go public? Everybody is allowed to express an opinion and mail whoever they want at any time.

In my experience over the past 4 years the WITSU has been as effective as a 3 legged donkey to be honest with you. This is why when it comes to something as serious as this, I have very little faith in their ability to do anything except cosy up to their ICTU partners again. Fast forward a week, we get a WITSU media statement no doubt sitting on the fence and then asking 4th years to walk out of classes...bravo.:rolleyes:

You can knock the officers all you like, but at the end of the day, all class reps were given a number of options and voted on the one of not going public as a union. Every individual can do whatever they so wish and wont be stopped but the unions stance will be guided by the council. Its not the Unions fault the class reps wanted something different then what you and some others want.

Ill say it again - fourth year students do NOT need to walk out of class. Its up to each individual and class if they wish to get behind the Unions strike which may (or may not) make a difference. Yes, you are missing class. Yes, its an important year. Yes, you could catch up. Yes, you could sit in there and cosy up to the lecturers who could not give a flying **** about you and have walked out of classes when it suited them and are refusing to tell students their results. All over money.

alpha2zulu

Sully wrote: »

Yes, you are missing class. Yes, its an important year. Yes, you could catch up. Yes, you could sit in there and cosy up to the lecturers who could not give a flying **** about you and have walked out of classes when it suited them and are refusing to tell students their results. All over money.

But why do we have to stoop to the lecturers level and walk off the job? You would that we would be above that. Surely they could be a bit more imaginative and devise a method for creating a fuss without putting even more pressure on students in the meantime.

Sully

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

But why do we have to stoop to the lecturers level and walk off the job? You would that we would be above that. Surely they could be a bit more imaginative and devise a method for creating a fuss without putting even more pressure on students in the meantime.

Suggestions?

(I actually am unsure what their approach will be, I just assumed a protest is at least one of the items on the agenda as its generally what people do when they want to make a big deal about something)

stick-dan

Can someone please tell me now why members of the same union are turning against each other.

- You are all students, get over power struggles with moderators of this forum

- Get over any discrepancies you have previously held against the Students Union.

- There is in this case very little chance of one person making a difference in this dispute with respect to the student body, We are all one big union, The biggest Union on the campus, use that to your advantage. Stop bickering amongst each other and voice your anger in numbers against the lecturers.

Ok, points have been heard that some of us are fourth years and we can't afford to be missing classes. I hold out very little respect for parades and protests and their effectiveness but you have to support your union no matter what, some lecturers are not disputing pay but have to abide by their union. It's how a union works, it would never survive if members had split beliefs. Support and march with your student body or whatever you decide to do. Pesonally a sit in, in my opinion would be best, take over the college. Media would flock down to see it, it would stand out a mile and both feuding unions would be made to look a laughing stock.

For christ sake, stop bickering amongst each other, it's the same petty arguments that will all add up and ultimately cancel out any effort the student body/union makes against WIT and the TUI.

@ alpha 2 zulu - Man i've agreed with you on everything so far, but you have no right what so ever to argue or give out and talk to anyone or go public until such a time past february 2nd, the official latest time you can receive results. Right now, no results are late.

stick-dan

I suggest a sit in. It would create a media frenzy, when was the last time or ever that you heard of a mass student sit in. These results are important for all years, more so for us, but dont forget everyone is entitled to and needs their results.