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Exam Results - Delayed (Mod Warning: Post #383 & #420)
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18-01-2010 1:52pm#1
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Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 21860
Being registered with the students union or not makes no difference to me acting as a rep.I speak up for my class frequently and talk to the lecturers about various issues.
I would disagree with you there
In general, maybe you are right but when it comes to more serious issues - you cant work without the unions support.it's my suspicion the meeting today will be all about "hey guys what should we do?" and nothing else will come of that.there is little or no value in attending the meeting IMO but on the other hand the course boards where I'll be will be the place to voice opinions/concern/disgust.anyway no more talk about the students union.the matter at hand is much
more important so let's concentrate on that rather than focusing who is on the students union.
Well as you attended the meeting you will see that the union came in fully prepared. They knew the facts and informed the meeting exactly what happened and how it stands. They had a set of options they recommended people went with and this was decided on. The unions statement was done and delivered first thing today to both the TUI and College Management.
With the SU being the biggest union in the college - they must be doing something right. The problem is with people who sit around and just have a go at them for "doing nothing" when the last few unions I have experienced have been doing very good work. The SU meetings have always been (in my experience) generally productive and a lot more then "hey guys what should we do?" with no outcome. I can not comment on previous unions.
You know me Dan, if I feel that someone is not doing what they should be doing I wont be long about calling them on it and would not get behind them.
Anyway, for those unable to attend or whose class rep did not attend::
- Dispute ongoing between TUI (lecturers union) and college management,
- Dispute is over the payment structure of exams,
- Originally before semesters came in a sum of money was paid for correction of exams,
- This sum of money came on top of a fully paid week where lecturers did not have any interaction with students and used the week for the correction of exams,
- Government cut all college budgets to save money,
- College looked over expenditure and identified one of the biggest issues was the payment for exam corrections,
- Cut this payment in half, giving notice to lecturers early summer who (I believe it may have been their union) refused to deal with it because it was their summer break,
- TUI instructed lecturers to not hand in the 'green and whites' which is a page containing student details and their results,
- Exams ARE corrected but NOT official as they must go before different boards and these results MAY change. The 'green and white' are in the hands of lecturers and the college therefore can not process our results,
- The TUI members (lecturers) held a meeting on Wednesday and voted in favour to keep the green and white until dispute is resolved,
- They also agreed to hold a ballot for industrial action,
- Both parties are now at a stand-off as neither will agree to any offer they have put on the table.
Thats the quick and dirty version of it. Some extra detail below.
- It is understood that 20 years ago the Department of Education advised colleges to change the payment structure for the correction of exams when semesters are introduced,
- Most colleges split the payment in half and paid it over the two semesters,
- One college increased the payment before splitting it to cover any additional workload caused by semesterisation,
- WIT doubled this payment as agreed with the TUI. Which meant that lecturers were paid the same payment twice per year,
- National budget cuts and the college needed to look over finances,
- College noticed that these extra payments needed to be stopped as they can no longer afford to pay them. They did so, as explained earlier.
- TUI claim this is a breach of procedure - the nationally agreed 'grievance procedure' where the status quo ante must remain the same. As the college pulled the payment from them during a dispute, they now refuse any offer from the college,
- TUI requesting the college return the full payment and enter negotiations. Possible problem with this:- The TUI would get their members full pay and could go into negotiations for several more years before deciding to seek the help of the Labour Relations Commission who would decide what needs to be done. If the college can not afford to pay this and are forced - they would need to cut services like CHART. The TUI are the only party who can call on the commission to help,
- College offered to return the payments and then go to the commission - skipping the negotiation stage. TUI refuse.
So right now we have the situation where both parties are refusing to come to an agreement, leaving our results hidden from us. At the meeting yesterday, it was agreed that the SU would call on both sides to resolve the matter before our results are originally due (Feb. 2nd) or else they will go public on the matter (such as local and national press, protests and the like). This statement (3 pages) was drawn up last night and submitted to both the TUI and College management. It is not available in the public and only in the SU office.0 -
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Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 21860
Here's the story, as far as I've been able to ascertain it in fact (rather than by speculataion on here btw!!),
Hello and welcome to Boards.ie Firstly, I would like to point out that any posts from myself or stick-dan as of yesterday are fully accurate. There is no speculation and they are complete facts unless otherwise stated. Your post, which I will quote below, seems to repeat more or less what I have stated.and like I said before it's not got too much to do with the issue of pay: Several years ago a national (that's important folks!) grievance procedure was agreed upon by management and Unions. An important part of this procedure is what's called the status quo ante. This is a handy bit of procedure which basically means that in the case of a grievance between management and staff arising, the situation will remain as it was prior to the grievance arising, until such time as the grievance is resolved through the other stages of the previously agreed upon grievance procedure. It is basically a piece of legislation designed to stop the employer making arbitrary or unilateral changes to the employees terms of employment or customary practices without due consultation, while also avoiding the escalation of every minor dispute into industrial action at the drop of a hat. Quite a sensible piece of legislation, you might think!
You have just repeated what I have already said and contradicted that is not over pay. The TUI have asked they be paid back in full and continue to do so. There asking for more money and if they dont get it - they wont give back the results. So please, how is that not really about money?
Also, seeing as the college has stated they can not afford to pay something that never should have been paid - imagine the situation where the TUI and the College follow the procedure outlined years ago, whereby the TUI who created the dispute have the final call on whether to go to the Labour Commission, keep the negotiations ongoing for say a decade before calling on the commission and the college continues to pay out what they can not pay for this length of time. The TUI are happy - there members are getting full pay. The students then suffer as the college makes cut backs elsewhere to get the money they are loosing.Anyway, in the case of WIT, management decided back before Christmas to cut the rate of pay lecturers received for marking exams by half, and to do this retrospectively - that is in relation to Summer and repeat exam scripts that had been marked a number of months before. Despite what other people have claimed on here, it is also less than clear whether WIT had been overpaying, as IoT's around the country pay various rates depending on local agreements, some pay the WIT rate, some pay less, but there is no nationally agreed rate - another source of contention!
They were informed before the scripts were corrected and they refused to be drawn on the issue (the TUI) because it was their "summer break". Plenty of notice was apparently given to the TUI.
Also, other ITs do not have the same arrangement as WIT. Yes, its not a national agreement but from what we understand the majority split it down the middle or increased it by a sum before splitting. WIT, afaik, are the only college to pay double.The Union thus initiated the grievance procedure and invoked the status quo ante with regard to payment for these previously marked scripts. The Union's claim is that, to date, management have failed to respond to this by abiding by the status quo ante, offering only a deal which, the Union claims, operates outside the terms of that previous agreement.
Bit selfish and greedy, dont you think? The college should not have been paying it and are saying they can not pay it. TUI could not care less. College back down and agree to pay them in full and then ask the Labour Commission to rule on the matter which they be bound to. The TUI refuse. Why are the TUI refusing to let a 3rd party arbitrator decide what should be paid? Is it right they should be so selfish to hold out student exam results because the college got pissy with them?The Union's primary issue and concern is thus one of precedent. That is, if management are not forced back into the terms of the grievance procedure, as they claim they were previously agreed, and, importantly, if they are not made to respect the status quo ante then that agreement won't any longer be worth the paper it's written on. That is, as the Union see it, the flood gates will be opened with regards to other changes to their terms of employment and customary work practices. They are already, I believe, in discussion with management in regard to a number of other proposed changes to work practices within the college, and they might immediately lose ground in those should this precedent be set.
This is a typical Unionised statement about "precedent". The agreement is clearly a major problem because it effectively allows the TUI continue allowing lecturers for another 5 years be overpaid for exam paper corrections. Thats a problem and the TUI dont care as long as the lecturers get paid. Negotiations are not getting us anywhere and should not be dragged out - its time for the commission to decide but the TUI wont allow it.The union's intransigence thus stems from rather more than the potential loss of a (relatively) small amount of income. For most lecturers you are probably talking about a couple of hundred euro per year. Hardly worth all this! Given that we're talking about a nationally agreed grievance procedure, precedent would also potentially be set for other IoT's, so I expect they are getting pressure there too!
As above.Anway (and apologies for the length of this post), you might want to ask yourself a few questions! For instance, what have management got to lose by engaging with the grievance procedure, as opposed to the Unions conceding to the management's unilateral decision? Who's gonna be easier to cave-in, for you guys, in other words?
Well, if the college caves-in and pays them, we get our results. In the long run, the college suffers and the lecturers are happy because it does not effect them in anyway and they get a nice payment each term they never really should have got. Therefore, its time the procedure was effectively re-written or ignored as its clearly not working. Sorry, but us students have been effectively used and abused by lecturers to demand better pay and its time we stood up for ourselves and got this ****e sorted once and for all.Also, imagine that he Union's suspicions are right, why might management have chosen this issue to try and set precedent? What reaction could be expected from the students? And where might any pressure they exert be expected to be applied? When was the last time you saw a member of senior management, for instance, never mind shared a classroom with one?
Your union colours are shinning bright my friend! Sadly for you, I think, you will find most students are just so angry and fed up at how lecturers are using them to get what they want in terms of money they wont be thrown around and brainwashed by "Its not our fault, we are just some low paid public service workers higher level management and government are abusing".Also, whose interests are more closely interwoven with the students? And what implications would the loss of the status quo ante have for the students? What about these other changes coming down the line? Do you fancy sitting in lectures at 8am, or 6pm? Or what about if time allocated to lecturers to supervise students, teach postgrad courses, run tutorials or practicals were impacted? And what about extended industrial action as both sides struggle over the implementation of every little change?......
Oh.. I never thought... Thats it, im with the TUI on this one. They clearly are not looking for extra money and are just looking after us students! My god, I have seen the light! the TUI really do rock! :rolleyes: Sorry but we all know that the lecturers, not all but a lot, concerned about us. The college could not pay for such implications as you mention and any withdrawl of services would be a result of not having enough funding.The answers to these questions are up to you, but while it might be fashionable at the moment to bash Unions, applying pressure only to them and not to senior management --- some of whom, lest we forget, recently spent c. E150 euro refurbishing their offices, while parts of the college, populated by both lecturers and students on a daily basis, remain pretty close to unfit for purpose (leaking roofs, unsanitary toilets, no heating, or projecting equipment, not to mention the libraries!!!) --- might actually reduce your chances of getting this settled in the short or medium term.
Jesus those union colours are shinning awfully bright there dude. But wait, your not that unionised you said! Weird.
Listen, your more then welcome to come on here and defend the unions and ramble away your "The TUI rock! The college sucks" propaganda. Its a discussion forum. People may or may not support you. As it stands, the TUI have very very very little support and a LOT of angry students against them.
The student body voted not to knock any party but called on both of them basically to get up of their backsides, put aside their greed and selfishness and sort this mess out once and for all through a third party which is made binding. While the facts may look bad on the TUI - facts are facts and if you think you can white wash them with "We are fighting for a bigger issue, but are vocal mostly on pay" like you guys did during the strike (or did you head up to Newry with others?).
At the end of the day, there are some fantastic very helpful, down to earth lecturers who have the interest of their students at heart. Some may side with their union, some may not. Some will side and still do their best for the students. There will be a chunk who are not members at all. Thanks folks, we understand.
But sadly, there are TUI members feeling very strongly (I recall in some colleges verbally abusing students and staff for crossing the picket line during your last strike) and emotionally with not so much the students interest at heart. Some come onto sites like Boards.ie and try white wash the truth and make the college out to be the "baddies". To those, well sorry, but you do not have any support from us.0 -
Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 21860
alpha_2_zulu can you show me where WITSU went out and back the lecturers as from my understanding this is the First time they have made a reaction to any industrial action in WIT. The 3 sabaticial officers cannot support or condem any events without approval of the Majority of class reps
Seriously dude, I dont meant to come across rude and excuse me if this does, but ease up on the SU defending. Your sounding a little crazy because your frequently defending them over every small little thing and contributing little else.
Ease up on it 0 -
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Seriously dude, I dont meant to come across rude and excuse me if this does, but ease up on the SU defending. Your sounding a little crazy because your frequently defending them over every small little thing and contributing little else.
Ease up on it
So let me get this right your telling me to ease up defending the SU when people can come on here and bad mouth them with then unable to defend themselves0 -
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