Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

wild handlin

corktina wrote: »

with you all the way there...lets plough up the trackbed and sell it(give it away) to whoever will take it. Put the money saved (if we actually have any of it) into increasing capaicity nearer the capital where it might benefit a lot of the population.

And waste the already €106 million that has already gone into it!? Yeah, great idea!! :rolleyes:

How many of you who are against the WRC travels on it on a regular basis? From what I gather the passenger numbers seem to be well up, with passenger trains ex Galway and ex Limerick all reasonably full - (and not just to Ennis/Atherny).

How many of you have travelled from Tuam - Galway in rush hour? Also, like I have stated here if freight uses the line then there is no doubt that it will claw back some of the money used to open the line in the first place.

Oh and no, before you all start hounding me I'm not involved with WOT - or any other rail based campaign. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

invinciblePRSTV

wild handlin wrote: »

How many of you who are against the WRC travels on it on a regular basis?

What point are you trying to make here?

wild handlin wrote: »

From what I gather the passenger numbers seem to be well up, with passenger trains ex Galway and ex Limerick all reasonably full - (and not just to Ennis/Atherny).

Where do you 'gather' this information from? besides IE & WOT press releases?

corktina

westip was talking about North of Athenry and so was I, although you could argue that to throw away that €106 million would save much more than that in a few short years by the line NOT losing money.

wild handlin wrote: »

And waste the already €106 million that has already gone into it!? Yeah, great idea!! :rolleyes:



How many of you who are against the WRC travels on it on a regular basis? From what I gather the passenger numbers seem to be well up, with passenger trains ex Galway and ex Limerick all reasonably full - (and not just to Ennis/Atherny).

not my information Im sorry to say


How many of you have travelled from Tuam - Galway in rush hour? Also, like I have stated here if freight uses the line then there is no doubt that it will claw back some of the money used to open the line in the first place.
What freight? ther is no potential for freight...

Oh and no, before you all start hounding me I'm not involved with WOT - or any other rail based campaign. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

westtip

wild handlin wrote: »

How many of you have travelled from Tuam - Galway in rush hour? :

Improve the N17, improve the bus service and bus lanes (with buses going direct to places where people actually work like Balybrit, hospital, University etc), make the bus service a good and frequent with services beyond commuter hours; bypass ClareGalway - all these would serve a far greater number of people than the precious rail line ever will and deliver a better quality of public transport service.

After all Tuam Athenry then into Galway is not going to dleiver a very good commuter service.

corktina

westtip wrote: »

Improve the N17, improve the bus service and bus lanes (with buses going direct to places where people actually work like Balybrit, hospital, University etc), make the bus service a good and frequent with services beyond commuter hours; bypass ClareGalway - all these would serve a far greater number of people than the precious rail line ever will and deliver a better quality of public transport service.

After all Tuam Athenry then into Galway is not going to dleiver a very good commuter service.

no...especially over a single line with a further stop at Oranmore. I can just imagine how long that journey is likely to take if there is a failure or delay to a train in the opposite direction! Not likely to be very attractive to many commuters surely. A large Park And Ride at Oranmore would seem to me to be more attractive to road and rail users with rail to the city centre and buses to the other areas perhaps.

invinciblePRSTV

And let's not forget that Tuam & it's environs isn't exactly a metropolis crying out for a commuter railway, QBCs & road improvements will deliver far better public transport options to tuamites then spending large fortunes re-opening railways to small towns.

foggy_lad

wild handlin wrote: »

And waste the already €106 million that has already gone into it!? Yeah, great idea!! :rolleyes:

claw some of it back!

How many of you who are against the WRC travels on it on a regular basis? From what I gather the passenger numbers seem to be well up, with passenger trains ex Galway and ex Limerick all reasonably full - (and not just to Ennis/Atherny).

have you got reliable figures to back this up?

How many of you have travelled from Tuam - Galway in rush hour?

truth of it is that most people that get the train still use their cars to drive to/from the station

Also, like I have stated here if freight uses the line then there is no doubt that it will claw back some of the money used to open the line in the first place.

imagine how slow the passenger railcars will be if they are stuck behind an old relic of a locomotive hauling........well that is just it, there is no demand for freight services at the rates that irish rail would be asking! it is simply cheaper and much faster to send it by road(and most freight would require road transport after landing at a station anywway!) just as it is cheaper and much faster for passengers to travel by road!

Oh and no, before you all start hounding me I'm not involved with WOT - or any other rail based campaign. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

i would not hound or berate anyone for trying to improve their lot but not at the expense of the rest of the country! ireland could still join Iceland!

wild handlin

wild handlin wrote: »

And waste the already €106 million that has already gone into it!? Yeah, great idea!! :rolleyes:

Sunk costs (money already spent) should be ignored when you are making decisions about the future.

I wanted to use the train from Limerick to Galway once - the next one wasn't for about three hours so I took citylink.

wild handlin

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What point are you trying to make here?

My point is that some posters constantly "slag off" the WRC, yet no-one seems to be activly looking at what passenger numbers are on the services etc. When it was made public about the WRC being a far greater sucess than imagined in the first month some posters basically said, 'well - looks like the novelty factor is still on'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it just appears to me that theres a small bunch of posters on the boards who appear to want the WRC to fail at whatever cost - yet don't even consider that there are far greater wastes happening on IE at present - which don't draw in a single cent of revinue!!

westtip wrote: »

Improve the N17...... bypass ClareGalway - all these would serve a far greater number of people than the precious rail line ever will and deliver a better quality of public transport service.

After all Tuam Athenry then into Galway is not going to dleiver a very good commuter service.

Is the N17 actually one of the worst roads in the country? I don't really think so to be honest. I feel that there are worse roads than the N17. It appears to be by and large good quality bar the section from Claremorris - Tuam - Galway - (with bypassing Milltown, Ballindine, Tuam and Clare Galway)

foggy_lad wrote: »

claw some of it back!

How? The money has already been spent! What are you going to do with stations for example? They can't exactly be moved down the road...!!

have you got reliable figures to back this up?

truth of it is that most people that get the train still use their cars to drive to/from the station imagine how slow the passenger railcars will be if they are stuck behind an old relic of a locomotive hauling........well that is just it, there is no demand for freight services at the rates that irish rail would be asking! it is simply cheaper and much faster to send it by road(and most freight would require road transport after landing at a station anywway!)
i would not hound or berate anyone for trying to improve their lot but not at the expense of the rest of the country! ireland could still join Iceland!

I have had friends who have used the service and I've been reliabily told that the trains by and large seem to be well filled. Do you have any reliable figures to suggest that no one is using the service, and that every service is a "ghost service"?

If freight trains are timetabled properly then there shouldnt (in theory) be any conflict with passenger trains? And - as regards railfreight there is a large demand for freight in this country to go by rail - and not all in the West.
If you look at what Ballina can produce container wise for export then surely what can the likes of Cork, Limerick and Galway for example (which all had similar trains serving them up until the 2000's) can produce for railfreight?

foggy_lad

balina is nothing really it is only a few companies that use rail because it suits them for export but there are much more factories around the country that could not afford to switch to rail due to extra costs as well as needing road freight from the railway stations and then there is the whole reliability issue with irish rails awful record of accidents breakdowns and very late trains!

westtip

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Is the N17 actually one of the worst roads in the country? I don't really think so to be honest. I feel that there are worse roads than the N17. It appears to be by and large good quality bar the section from Claremorris - Tuam - Galway - (with bypassing Milltown, Ballindine, Tuam and Clare Galway)



?

I think you have answered your own question in one word Yes. In several other words go talk to the parents, siblings and friends of those who have lost their lives on this deathtrap. And don't tell them they will be able to catch the train cos there will be no service on wet miserable nights in the winter with poor driving conditions. This road and the section you highlight is a deathtrap.

wild handlin

foggy_lad wrote: »

balina is nothing really it is only a few companies that use rail because it suits them for export but there are much more factories around the country that could not afford to switch to rail due to extra costs as well as needing road freight from the railway stations and then there is the whole reliability issue with irish rails awful record of accidents breakdowns and very late trains!

Thats down to Irish Rail - not the theory of whether railfreight is viable in this country!!

westtip wrote: »

I think you have answered your own question in one word Yes. In several other words go talk to the parents, siblings and friends of those who have lost their lives on this deathtrap. And don't tell them they will be able to catch the train cos there will be no service on wet miserable nights in the winter with poor driving conditions. This road and the section you highlight is a deathtrap.

It is tragic to loose anyone to a road traffic accident, whether on a motorway or a minor road. In my view there appear to be other roads in the West which appear to be in worse condition than the N17; what about the N16 for example? To me it seems as the majority of Tuam residents appear to commute to Galway, then surely rail would be a viable alternative to the motorway*? After all, the EU are constantly pushing for "greener" methods of transport. The train sounds like a non brainer to me. You have a good target market in Tuam - and with promotion and cutting edge fairs (I presume the M17 will be tolled?) then it sounds very promising - with with a station at Oranmore it surely would benafit Galway and it's environs further. I believe it could be sucess - HOWEVER what I will say is that it all comes down to how (well) IE can handle the service & promotion, if/when Tuam link does open.

*Edit: I'm not saying that the N17 motorway isn't needed. What I'm saying is that for the likes of Tuam where commuting takes place to Galway then surely the train would be a viable alternative than the motorway?

corktina

wild handlin wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What point are you trying to make here?

My point is that some posters constantly "slag off" the WRC, yet no-one seems to be activly looking at what passenger numbers are on the services etc. When it was made public about the WRC being a far greater sucess than imagined in the first month some posters basically said, 'well - looks like the novelty factor is still on'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it just appears to me that theres a small bunch of posters on the boards who appear to want the WRC to fail at whatever cost - yet don't even consider that there are far greater wastes happening on IE at present - which don't draw in a single cent of revinue!!

.


Is the N17 actually one of the worst roads in the country? I don't really think so to be honest. I feel that there are worse roads than the N17. It appears to be by and large good quality bar the section from Claremorris - Tuam - Galway - (with bypassing Milltown, Ballindine, Tuam and Clare Galway)



I have had friends who have used the service and I've been reliabily told that the trains by and large seem to be well filled. Do you have any reliable figures to suggest that no one is using the service, and that every service is a "ghost service"?

If freight trains are timetabled properly then there shouldnt (in theory) be any conflict with passenger trains? And - as regards railfreight there is a large demand for freight in this country to go by rail - and not all in the West.
If you look at what Ballina can produce container wise for export then surely what can the likes of Cork, Limerick and Galway for example (which all had similar trains serving them up until the 2000's) can produce for railfreight?

Im not anti-rail...im anti-waste. Lets see those passenger figures, I'll bet there is less than a bus full on each train.Noone in the right mind is going to continue using a service which is dearer and slower than the bus, not to mention the car!

Freight from Ballina is one thing, exports from Galway Limerick and Cork are another as they dont need a train as they all have ports

westtip

wild handlin wrote: »

Thats down to Irish Rail - not the theory of whether railfreight is viable in this country!!


It is tragic to loose anyone to a road traffic accident, whether on a motorway or a minor road. In my view there appear to be other roads in the West which appear to be in worse condition than the N17; what about the N16 for example? To me it seems as the majority of Tuam residents appear to commute to Galway, then surely rail would be a viable alternative to the motorway*? After all, the EU are constantly pushing for "greener" methods of transport. The train sounds like a non brainer to me. You have a good target market in Tuam - and with promotion and cutting edge fairs (I presume the M17 will be tolled?) then it sounds very promising - with with a station at Oranmore it surely would benafit Galway and it's environs further. I believe it could be sucess - HOWEVER what I will say is that it all comes down to how (well) IE can handle the service & promotion, if/when Tuam link does open.

*Edit: I'm not saying that the N17 motorway isn't needed. What I'm saying is that for the likes of Tuam where commuting takes place to Galway then surely the train would be a viable alternative than the motorway?

tell me how will a service from Tuam to Athenry and into Galway via stops at Oranmore, with a service which we can only presume will be at best a match to the northbound branch line from Ennis to Galway suit commuters - who for example work in shops with long hours, or those who have shift patterns, or those who have to say drive 15 minutes to Tuam station park up and then add a further 25 minutes to their journey at the other end to get to their place of work. How will it suit retail workers working in retail parks a long way from the rail terminals - how will it serve teachers working in schools scattered through the communities, how will it suit office workers working on industrial/commercial campuses,also a long way from the stations - Our planning in the last 20 years has not been designed around 19th century infrastructure, perhaps it should have been, but we have to live with waht we have scattered economic and social activity - for which the only transport solution is the private car and good quality flexible and frequent bus services.


Anyway do you really think all the types of workers mentioned above are all going to add an hour to their journey every day and every night to catch the train - whilst the car they have paid for sits in the drive or at tuam railway station?

Just think about it. Then think why some of us who live in the west can see the folly of all the attention for transport in this part of the world being centred on a railway - which will be useful for a very small minority of the population out here. For example if 40 people a day are now getting the early morning train from Ennis to Galway (and that number is pulled from the air) - so what - you don't go building commuter lines to accomodate this number of people - and the same for Tuam, so what if 30 people a day choose to get say the 7.30 am train from Tuam to Galway. Can this project be justified for those 30 people? the answer is an unequivocal no.when literally thousands a day would use the road (which by the way is to be a shadow toll - ie not payable by the drivers using the road - so effectively free ) this is taken fromt he GAlway coco web site:

The tendering process for the N17 N18 Gort Tuam PPP scheme is being managed by the National Roads Authority. The scheme will be constructed as a four lane road. There will be no tolls on the road. Further details on the scheme can be found on the NRA website at the following link
http://www.nra.ie/PublicPrivatePartnership/SecondPPPRoadsProgramme/

It would seem - that if we get this road - the dodo being created in the form of the WRC north of Athenry will be just that - as dead as a dodo. why go ahead and rebuild infrastructure which is not going to be used in our car dependent society? the truth of course lies in those words I wrote a few days ago - We are broke and we will probably get neither.


Anyway - once again just think about it. Is this rail line really the saviour of public transport for the people fo Tuam? BTW I agree about the N16 but it does not carry the same volume of traffic as the N17 (I think but maybe check on NRA site)

Zoney

My experience of the mid-morning service (09:35) Limerick-Galway recently was that most people on the train travelled the full distance Limerick-Galway on this particular service. It was about half-full on leaving (two people in almost all rows) and not many boarded or alighted at any station en-route (including Ennis).

Experience of the 12:10 return service the next day was that it was hardly used to Ennis, but at Ennis the platform was full of people waiting and the train into Limerick was more than half-full.

I'd be interested to know what the main traffic flows and passenger numbers are on the route, as I would have expected the midday services to be quieter (what were all those people doing heading into Limerick from Ennis after lunch?).

Galway station is one of the more miserable railway termini I've been to in Ireland! I really don't see the point of Ardrahan and Craughwell (both seem to service open fields) and it is absurd that fancy new stations were built there with none yet at Oranmore! (Not to mention that Galway station can't do much for encouraging people in Galway to use the train!). I have noticed that Limerick station is busier than ever all the time now - it does work well of course having the bus terminus co-located (a pity city bus services don't better connect)! Having so many people using the services from the station does seem to make it feel less dodgy for waiting in (apart from a new coffee dock it hasn't had any more actual polish than the last clean-up a couple years back).

It was a nasty discovery that €20 for a return ticket is day return only, coming back the next day is €36! However, it was possible to use the automatic ticket machines even though you can't buy your ticket online for Limerick-Galway.

The ride quality even in what is a camoflagued commuter rail car was very smooth (of course, not exactly fast in parts!) - it should be a dream if they do use the regional railcars next year!

This is only slightly related, but it was handy having all the city bus services in Galway depart from just outside the railway station at Eyre Square. One glaring omission however by Bus Éireann is that there is no diagram showing where the various services (with a *lot* of suffixed/via services) actually go - you are just supposed to guess if your stop is on the way to a Galway townland you don't know! Despite this they have more timetables up everywhere than in Limerick, so at your end destination there is indeed a timetable showing all the routes passing that stop - the information you needed when at Eyre Square!

foggy_lad

so on a lovely summers morning with lots of people going on day trips to galway and lots of schoolkids off until september the morning train was almost half full and the return trip the next afternoon was almost empty until ennis where there was already a regular service to limerick. not very good for a service that is expected to make money.

out of interest were the trains 2 or 4 carriages?

Zoney

foggy_lad:

In my experience of bus/rail, that's not bad at all for the time of day. Of course you have to run services at times where they are less used or else your peak services aren't utilised as much either, as people can't rely on using public transport due to lack of options!

The train was three carriages, because they are faking a regional railcar. I assume they've added the single railcar units, of which there were two, to normal two-car units to make this train.

I'm interested to know what peak-time usage is, and whether there is much Ennis-Galway travel at those times.

westtip

foggy_lad wrote: »

so on a lovely summers morning with lots of people going on day trips to galway and lots of schoolkids off until september the morning train was almost half full and the return trip the next afternoon was almost empty until ennis where there was already a regular service to limerick. not very good for a service that is expected to make money.

out of interest were the trains 2 or 4 carriages?

Foggy I don't think in fairness it was ever expected to make money, I think even if it is full to the ginnels it won't make money - ever - the issue is just how big will the subvention be - and BTW just how much traffic has it taken off the commuter routes - my guess is on the latter it is hardly noticeable, A real commuter service should by its very nature be packed by the time it reaches its terminal - that is the nature of the beast of commuting, and I guess could the actual number of people on board have been better accomodated on two buses, which in fact woudl be a lot "greener" than a rail car. I am guessing a 45 seat coach will actually use less fuel than train for this distance.

foggy_lad

it basically returned from galway empty because the people in ennis would be catered for on the regular commmuter service from ennis to limerick! that train should be full in the mornings and half full through the day with so many teenagers around but they will never pay the exhorbitant irish rail rates when they can get the bus which is not only cheaper but faster!

corktina

the other thing needed for a commuter service is an intensive service of course.

westtip

corktina wrote: »

the other thing needed for a commuter service is an intensive service of course.

Corky yes you are quite right - any respectable commuter service would start around 6.30 am with regular 20 minute interval trains in the "rush hour" (I use that with a wry smile when thinking of commuters ont he WRC. then hourly services in non peak and back to 20 minute intervals between 4 and 7 and then a service up to 11. Of course this kind of service is feasible in heavily polulated areas but I do think it is grossly unfair dat de people of da wesht are being denied WOT is rightfully theirs. WRC 247 is the new battle cry trains every 15 minutes - da wesht demands a gold standard WRC.....

corktina

joking apart, thats the problem with having a Park and Ride at Oranmore. Ideally there would need to be a turnback facility (given that no loop is planned) and a shuttle service between the Galway to Dublin and Limerick trains to acheive a decent headway. I'm no timetabling expert but I dont think it is possible on a single line to acheive a close enough headway to attract people out of their cars. People just missing one train will not be willing to wait , what, 40 minutes? for the next one.They will stay in their cars....

Hungerford

Zoney wrote: »

In my experience of bus/rail, that's not bad at all for the time of day.

Indeed, you'll find quite a few quiet services on the Northern and Maynooth lines at that time of day and into the afternoon. The positioning runs in advance of rush hour are usually particularly quiet as they are going against the flow of traffic.

Hungerford

Noel Dempsey told the Dail yesterday that completion of Phase 2 of the WRC may be accelerated because of delays to the interconnector:

"Ironically, the fact that the interconnector and metro will take longer than expected to complete, for environmental and design reasons, will ensure that the next phases of the western rail corridor and the Navan line will proceed on time and perhaps a little ahead of time. It is an ill wind than blows no good."

Fianna Fail are obviously planning a last stand in the West for the 2012 election.

Judgement Day

Where phase 2 of the WRC goes the Burma Road can't be far behind - looking forward to one more trip over the route.

westtip

Hungerford wrote: »

Noel Dempsey told the Dail yesterday that completion of Phase 2 of the WRC may be accelerated because of delays to the interconnector:

Where his lips moving at the time he made the speech - I generally find this is a good indicator he is lying.

DWCommuter

Hungerford wrote: »

Noel Dempsey told the Dail yesterday that completion of Phase 2 of the WRC may be accelerated because of delays to the interconnector:

"Ironically, the fact that the interconnector and metro will take longer than expected to complete, for environmental and design reasons, will ensure that the next phases of the western rail corridor and the Navan line will proceed on time and perhaps a little ahead of time. It is an ill wind than blows no good."

Fianna Fail are obviously planning a last stand in the West for the 2012 election.

Im trying to avoid this thread and I also avoided quoting what you did. I predicted in 2004 that the WRC would damage the development of rail transport in Ireland and it will. Fianna Fail will continue to spend cheap to keep certain constituencies happy.

Westtip - Do not underestimate these gob****es. While Dempsey usually talks out of his arse, phase 2 of the WRC could happen. But I'm intrigued by his reference to the Navan line. That is now a project that isn't needed, flies in the face of commonsense and will cost an absolute fortune considering they ploughed through key aspects of it (with no provision) when building the M3.

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

Im trying to avoid this thread and I also avoided quoting what you did. I predicted in 2004 that the WRC would damage the development of rail transport in Ireland and it will. Fianna Fail will continue to spend cheap to keep certain constituencies happy.

Westtip - Do not underestimate these gob****es. While Dempsey usually talks out of his arse, phase 2 of the WRC could happen. But I'm intrigued by his reference to the Navan line. That is now a project that isn't needed, flies in the face of commonsense and will cost an absolute fortune considering they ploughed through key aspects of it (with no provision) when building the M3.

Thing is DW. The WRC is so irelevant to the majority of people in the west that it will have little impact on the election. In fact I am pretty sure based on the poeple I know out here - if he said we are not going to build the WRC north of Athenry but we will invest immediately in N17 and the N26 (bohola Ballina link) then that would be a greater vote winner. I know you have been off the thread but out here most people couldn't give a tuppeny toss about the WRC.

Neworder79

I agree 100% westtip, anyone I ever mention the WRC to shrugs and say it would be good to have in the longterm but they wish they'd fix the roads first.

THE N5/17/84/26..etc should be priority number 1, we've been promised some of these schemes as far back as 30 years and people are angry that years of boom and objective 1 status have left little visible infrastructure in the west bar a few treatment plants. For safety, access and sustaining industry in the region, the roads impact far more on the lives of people in the West everyday than the WRC north of Galway will.

Many on this board think there is a big lobby for this in the West, I thought the Limerick-Galway link made some sense, but I can assure you most people would line up behind the roads candidate any day.

Hungerford

DWCommuter wrote: »

But I'm intrigued by his reference to the Navan line. That is now a project that isn't needed, flies in the face of commonsense and will cost an absolute fortune considering they ploughed through key aspects of it (with no provision) when building the M3.

I'm puzzled about why you think the Navan line is unnecessary - I think that provision of a commuter rail link from a major commuter town would seem like a no-brainer to me. It's likely to carry more passengers in a week than the WRC would manage in a month.