Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip

Tuam Greenway Project wrote: »

Encroachment....By a County Councillor

https://www.facebook.com/#!/ListowelRailwalk?hc_location=timeline

No doubt now looking for "compensation" kind of sums what this whole thing is about - a few of the usual cronies looking to line their pockets.

what_traffic

Spotted this in the Connacht Tribune today.
EU has to beg Government to seek funds for the west
http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/1193-eu-has-to-beg-government-to-seek-funds-for-the-west
"
.
..
Crucially, the letter, signed by committee chairman Erminia Mazzoni, also reveals that there is money available for the construction of the Western Rail Corridor . . . if the Department of Transport would just apply for it. The committee has even offered to travel here on a fact-finding mission to help identify projects for consideration.
"

eastwest

what_traffic wrote: »

Spotted this in the Connacht Tribune today.
EU has to beg Government to seek funds for the west
http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/1193-eu-has-to-beg-government-to-seek-funds-for-the-west
"
.
..
Crucially, the letter, signed by committee chairman Erminia Mazzoni, also reveals that there is money available for the construction of the Western Rail Corridor . . . if the Department of Transport would just apply for it. The committee has even offered to travel here on a fact-finding mission to help identify projects for consideration.
"

The Department of transport has no intention of applying for such funding, for a number of reasons. Firstly, there isn't and never has been a plan to put a railway on the Claremorris-Collooney section, so it's not government policy -- WOT is not an arm of government, they are just a lobby group. Secondly, they have learned from the mistakes made on Ennis-Athenry, where massively exaggerated claims by lobbyists proved to be nonsense and where there is neither the demand nor the population to make it work. Thirdly, any government proposing to spend a billion euro on a vanity project with no business case would be laughed out of office in these recessionary times. And finally, IE knows that there is no slush fund any more to support empty trains on obscure tracks; taxpayers are now more aware of waste in government spending and wouldn't react well to more of this kind of nonsense.
It's over; the so-called 'western rail corridor' lives on only in the minds of a diminishing number of diehard anorak train-spotters. It's just not going to happen, and we need to deal with this reality and stop dreaming of mystical mythical trains full of yankee tourists. Life has moved on; let's try to catch up.:)

what_traffic

eastwest wrote: »

The Department of transport has no intention of applying for such funding, for a number of reasons.

I wonder what that EU committee would say if Greenway funding from Dept of Transport landed at the door?

eastwest

what_traffic wrote: »

I wonder what that EU committee would say if Greenway funding from Dept of Transport landed at the door?

They'd say, 'about time too!'
'We'd nearly given up on you; do you not want anyone to ride a bicycle in Ireland?'

westtip

what_traffic wrote: »

I wonder what that EU committee would say if Greenway funding from Dept of Transport landed at the door?

well lets face it, The WRC from Athenry to Tuam/Clarmorris would cost what, 100 million, 200 million? (the first phase cost 105 million), and then the fabled claremorris collooney section due to the engineering issues would be another 200 million+ and these costs are based on the 2005 costings in the McCann report (McCann said phase one would be €75 million so it was underestimated)

I reckon for this cost they could build the entire national cycle network. What would bring greater benefit to the entire country, what would make more economic impact, what would distribute tourism spend far and wide? What would get used more, what would have a huge social and health benefit on every town village and townland it passed through.....

The greater benefit for the greater good for the greater number.

As said before - its not rocket science is it.

so if the money was offered for greenways the phrase bite their hands off comes to mind.

hmmm

westtip wrote: »

What would get used more, what would have a huge social and health benefit on every town village and townland it passed through.....

I'm an active hillwalker and I don't understand the reluctance of Irish rural communities to attract "outdoor" tourism. The Scottish have a similar climate to us (worse in places and the midges are killers) and they are pulling in billions. Rural communities all over Europe are doing the same. Yet in Ireland, it all seems to be about attracting "industry", as if the Pfizers or Intels of the world will locate anywhere but near a major city. Rural politicians fall over themselves to blame the "lack of infrastructure" for the "failure to attract industry".

For the same cost of one bypass, we could build a world class hiking and cycling product that would attract tens of thousands of tourists into rural areas. Instead, we have small rural communities trying to get motorways and universities built on their doorstep, and an airport in every parish while we have landowners putting up "keep out" signs all over the countryside. The WRC will not attract industry and employment, and its only function is to give pensioners a comfortable seat with toilet facilities for their days out. If local politicians really cared about unemployment, they should be using every facility available to them to talk up the greenway concept.

Judgement Day

hmmm - your belittling of rail travel by saying it's just for pensioners does the greenway campaign little service and it's pure nonsense. A proper rail link from Rosslare through to the west (Claremorris at the northern end) would open up the area for tourism. Not everybody is a mad cyclist no more than they are a pensioner. Even I, an ex.railway enthusiast, accept that Claremorris/Collooney is unlikely to reopen but Athenry to Claremorris should go ahead. If a greenway between Athenry and Claremorris is required, there's room for both.

hmmm

Judgement Day wrote: »

A proper rail link from Rosslare through to the west (Claremorris at the northern end) would open up the area for tourism.

You think there are thousands of tourists stuck at Rosslare who will only travel by train and desperately want to visit Claremorris?

I don't see hordes of tourists traveling by train from Rosslare to anywhere at the moment.

corktina

that's because one line has been closed recently and the other has few trains that are of any actual use to potential travellers.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

that's because one line has been closed recently and the other has few trains that are of any actual use to potential travellers.

When the lines from Rosslare were open for years they may as well have been closed for the number of passengers they had. most people using the ferries bring their car or truck and do not need or want rail services that take forever to the west and for the few foot passengers the buses are perfect as they are far more flexible.

westtip

hmmm wrote: »

I'm an active hillwalker and I don't understand the reluctance of Irish rural communities to attract "outdoor" tourism. The Scottish have a similar climate to us (worse in places and the midges are killers) and they are pulling in billions. Rural communities all over Europe are doing the same. Yet in Ireland, it all seems to be about attracting "industry", as if the Pfizers or Intels of the world will locate anywhere but near a major city. Rural politicians fall over themselves to blame the "lack of infrastructure" for the "failure to attract industry".

For the same cost of one bypass, we could build a world class hiking and cycling product that would attract tens of thousands of tourists into rural areas. Instead, we have small rural communities trying to get motorways and universities built on their doorstep, and an airport in every parish while we have landowners putting up "keep out" signs all over the countryside. The WRC will not attract industry and employment, and its only function is to give pensioners a comfortable seat with toilet facilities for their days out. If local politicians really cared about unemployment, they should be using every facility available to them to talk up the greenway concept.

Indeed. C'est tres bizarre.

eastwest

hmmm wrote: »

I'm an active hillwalker and I don't understand the reluctance of Irish rural communities to attract "outdoor" tourism. The Scottish have a similar climate to us (worse in places and the midges are killers) and they are pulling in billions. Rural communities all over Europe are doing the same. Yet in Ireland, it all seems to be about attracting "industry", as if the Pfizers or Intels of the world will locate anywhere but near a major city. Rural politicians fall over themselves to blame the "lack of infrastructure" for the "failure to attract industry".

For the same cost of one bypass, we could build a world class hiking and cycling product that would attract tens of thousands of tourists into rural areas. Instead, we have small rural communities trying to get motorways and universities built on their doorstep, and an airport in every parish while we have landowners putting up "keep out" signs all over the countryside. The WRC will not attract industry and employment, and its only function is to give pensioners a comfortable seat with toilet facilities for their days out. If local politicians really cared about unemployment, they should be using every facility available to them to talk up the greenway concept.

That's called common sense; careful, now!

Geuze

I am a supporter of all forms of public transport.

I support the WRC.

Even I, with an admitted bias towards rail, accept that the line from Claremorris north to county Sligo will not re-open in the foreseeable future.

No travel demand forecast in any way would ever support its re-opening.

That’s it, simple.

Even if in 20-50 years time, if cars are banned, and trains are more popular, the tracks would have to be replaced, so we may as well pull them up now.

Keep the line in State ownership, pull up the tracks, convert to greenway / cycleway if the demand is there, and lay the tracks back in the future.

Geuze

From Claremorris south, I would not convert into greenway, as the case for railway is stronger.

corktina

foggy_lad wrote: »

When the lines from Rosslare were open for years they may as well have been closed for the number of passengers they had. most people using the ferries bring their car or truck and do not need or want rail services that take forever to the west and for the few foot passengers the buses are perfect as they are far more flexible.

now you've said it...buses would be cheaper quicker and more usable in the case of several lines.It seems to me daft to have two modes, both state owned by the same CIE, competing on the same route. We should let Rail do what it does best and let the Coach and Bus do the rest.

Judgement Day

hmmm wrote: »

You think there are thousands of tourists stuck at Rosslare who will only travel by train and desperately want to visit Claremorris?

I don't see hordes of tourists traveling by train from Rosslare to anywhere at the moment.

I never suggested that hordes of visitors would want to visit Claremorris but in case you hadn't noticed it's a junction on the Westport/Dublin line. Westport does very well out of its rail service and is the starting point for one of your beloved Greenways. I suggest that it more likely to get increased numbers of cyclists etc. from UK/Europe if a decent rail service is provided, connecting to Rosslare, or do you think that visitors will cycle there from Rosslare?

The reason that you don't see hordes of tourists anywhere in Ireland (including Rosslare) is because our tourism product sucks - see thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68364974 - and the marketing is rubbish.

Back in the mid-1970s the first McKinsey Report into CIE found that the majority of passengers arriving at Rosslare Port were foot passengers - the result, instead of developing this market as a rational railway company, CIE went hell for leather to develop the port for car ferry traffic and have since downgraded the rail facilities until they are a sad joke.

As for there being a rail service to Rosslare for years - foggy_lad - a service in name only and barely useable for anybody other than local school children commuting to Waterford. It has long been CIE's policy when they want to close a rail service to first make it unusable - today Waterford/Limerick Jn. and Limerick/Ballybrophy tomorrow......

corktina

quite right JD we are USELESS at tourism, all we offer is diddly-aye music and Guinness and if you were on a fortnights holiday you'd quickly tire of that...it's not what tourists want, it's what we THINK they want. I'm just back from a break in the UK, we were spoiled for choice of things to do and see, indeed we missed a lot of things I'd have liked to have seen, and what's more, we paid a fair price for everything, good vfm and no rip-offs.

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

Back in the mid-1970s the first McKinsey Report into CIE found that the majority of passengers arriving at Rosslare Port were foot passengers -

.

Then along came these guys

---

ryanair.com

steamengine

westtip wrote: »

Then along came these guys

---

ryanair.com

The only reasonable way of transporting bicycles from Dublin or Rosslare ferry ports to various points West would be by rail. Suppose a group or club of serious cyclists want to spend a long weekend cycling in the West on their own expensive customised bikes, how do they get to their chosen start point with Ryanair ? I would doubt if serious cyclists either of the touring or competitive fraternity would be into the hired bike scene.

Rail could offer that flexibility but surmounting that problem could be as difficult as building a greenway, and yet it could be as easy as adding a carriage equipped with bike racks to at least some Intercity services. I saw one of these 'Tour de France' type cyclists, dressed up in all the regalia, the other day in Connolly boarding the Enterprise. Where the bike is stowed on that train I don't know, but there he was - off to somewhere outside Dublin for a spin. But could the Enterprise have catered for a club of say 20, wanting to do the same ? I doubt it.

Perhaps more attention should be given to this larger mass and type of cyclist, both native and from abroad. Cycling tourism in the West is a great idea and I hope it really takes off, but joined up thinking is required, not least by those at the top end of tourism and transport.

Judgement Day

westtip wrote: »

Then along came these guys

---

ryanair.com

That's too simplistic...Rosslare and its rail services were deliberately sacrificed by CIE in the interests of car traffic. The old Ryanair canard is well past its sell by date.

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

I never suggested that hordes of visitors would want to visit Claremorris but in case you hadn't noticed it's a junction on the Westport/Dublin line. Westport does very well out of its rail service and is the starting point for one of your beloved Greenways. I suggest that it more likely to get increased numbers of cyclists etc. from UK/Europe if a decent rail service is provided, connecting to Rosslare, or do you think that visitors will cycle there from Rosslare?

tourists don't use the ferry any more as foot passengers! They get collected at the port or take the bus to Dublin where they start their tours of the country.

The reason that you don't see hordes of tourists anywhere in Ireland (including Rosslare) is because our tourism product sucks - see thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68364974 - and the marketing is rubbish.

Back in the mid-1970s the first McKinsey Report into CIE found that the majority of passengers arriving at Rosslare Port were foot passengers - the result, instead of developing this market as a rational railway company, CIE went hell for leather to develop the port for car ferry traffic and have since downgraded the rail facilities until they are a sad joke.

Back in the 70's if you came on holiday to Ireland you either took the ferry because you were not rich or you flew and hired a car because you were rich. As wages and conditions increased the attractiveness and viability of the railway connections to lesser used ferryports waned and lines were closed.

As for there being a rail service to Rosslare for years - foggy_lad - a service in name only and barely useable for anybody other than local school children commuting to Waterford. It has long been CIE's policy when they want to close a rail service to first make it unusable - today Waterford/Limerick Jn. and Limerick/Ballybrophy tomorrow......

They tried every combination of timings possible on the Rosslare-Waterford branch line with the limited amount of cash available for a service which was not being used and had not been used since the early 70's.

is your idea to throw money at it for 40+ years in the hope that somehow it will become viable? it has no potential passengers, well none that can be attracted to the line without giving them practically free travel on an intercity standard service. to attract customers costs a small fortune and IE know that places like Rosslare and the WRC just don't have those passengers to give up!

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

The only reasonable way of transporting bicycles from Dublin or Rosslare ferry ports to various points West would be by rail. Suppose a group or club of serious cyclists want to spend a long weekend cycling in the West on their own expensive customised bikes, how do they get to their chosen start point with Ryanair ? I would doubt if serious cyclists either of the touring or competitive fraternity would be into the hired bike scene.

Rail could offer that flexibility but surmounting that problem could be as difficult as building a greenway, and yet it could be as easy as adding a carriage equipped with bike racks to at least some Intercity services. I saw one of these 'Tour de France' type cyclists, dressed up in all the regalia, the other day in Connolly boarding the Enterprise. Where the bike is stowed on that train I don't know, but there he was - off to somewhere outside Dublin for a spin. But could the Enterprise have catered for a club of say 20, wanting to do the same ? I doubt it.

Perhaps more attention should be given to this larger mass and type of cyclist, both native and from abroad. Cycling tourism in the West is a great idea and I hope it really takes off, but joined up thinking is required, not least by those at the top end of tourism and transport.

hold on...you can't say the Train is the only reasonable way to get cyclists to the west of Ireland and then say what would they do if a group of 20 wanted to travel. It's either practical or it isn't . Attaching a parcels van to each train in the hope some cyclists want to travel certainly isn't practical.

corktina

foggy_lad wrote: »

tourists don't use the ferry any more as foot passengers! They get collected at the port or take the bus to Dublin where they start their tours of the country.
!

do they use the ferry as foot passengers or not? If they don't , just who uses the bus or gets collected? I usually see a few non-car passengers disembarking. edit...missed the TOURIST word....

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

hold on...you can't say the Train is the only reasonable way to get cyclists to the west of Ireland and then say what would they do if a group of 20 wanted to travel. It's either practical or it isn't . Attaching a parcels van to each train in the hope some cyclists want to travel certainly isn't practical.

That's precisely what I am saying - it can't be done at the moment, but it could be done - it's not rocket science to remove a few seats and fit more bike racks. And yes, only if the business is there, then it becomes practical. Or do you want to live in the land of Guinness and diddly aye music for ever ?

corktina

it's not practical to do unless you remove a few seats from every unit and then what do you do if there aren't enough seats for passengers?

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

do they use the ferry as foot passengers or not? If they don't , just who uses the bus or gets collected? I usually see a few non-car passengers disembarking. edit...missed the TOURIST word....

There are always a few foot passengers on the ferry but they generally are not tourists but people returning from the UK for funerals or other family gatherings, most will get the bus from the port to Waterford or the train/bus to Dublin.

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

it's not practical to do unless you remove a few seats from every unit and then what do you do if there aren't enough seats for passengers?

I would add an extra coach, just like in the old days and if they can't then add three r/e the 22k's, and if they can't do that then it's just an extra few people standing. More of the 'can do' attitude is needed in this country - really we've gone backwards, I used to cart my motorbikes around on the train, it was never a problem back in the year dot.

corktina

you have to take into account the economics of doing it...if you added extra coaches and charged cyclists the real cost of that, then they wouldn't travel by rail.

The "old days" when there was a generator coach with accommodation for parcels and whatever else was on offer are gone and won't be coming back

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

you have to take into account the economics of doing it...if you added extra coaches and charged cyclists the real cost of that, then they wouldn't travel by rail.

The "old days" when there was a generator coach with accommodation for parcels and whatever else was on offer are gone and won't be coming back

And if cycling clubs from abroad were contemplating cycling in the West of Ireland and learned that they would have to cycle from either Rosslare or Dublin all the way to the West first, then they wouldn't bother coming at all. The little I know about cycling does tell me there is massive tourist potential
there, but not having supporting bicycle transport that can cater for large numbers is a huge drawback for starters.