Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

foggy_lad

InchicoreDude wrote: »

You may argue that greenway costs less than railway. But it still costs! And I would rather see that the money is not wasted on something that perhaps isnt needed or won't be used.

Like the western rail corridor?

Would the benefits derived from a greenway actually outweigh a cost of 2-4 million????

Yes of course because walking or cycling is a lot healthier than sitting on a train and the health benefits alone including savings in long term health costs are well worth the few million needed. People are far more likely to use a local amenity like a forest park or greenway than they are to use a railway that is seen as slow and expensive.

I lived near a section of the WRC north of Claremorris and I would be somewhat sceptical of people using a greenway there if it opened. Then again, I used to walk my dogs along a section of it so I would probably be one of the few to use it!

With a username like InchicoreDude can I ask do you have any railway connections?(not fishing for information, you don't have to answer.) if yes, would you consider your scepticism to be based on a bias towards rail transport?

To be honest, I see many of the same flaws in people advocating a greenway as the people who are advocating a railway. I would love to be convinced that a greenway is the best option. But I just dont really see the hard evidence of it being so.

What hard evidence, if any, do you see which is in any way in favour of reopening the two remaining stretches of the WRC?

The greenway is the least worse option as it only costs a small fraction of the railway yet provides a degree of protection to the allignment that equals the railway option and also provides a valuable amenity for the localities for now and the future.

dowlingm

There are costs right now, since IE are responsible for the various bridges and whatnot. The question is whether the public can get a return of some sort.

In North America those rails would have been pulled up already because local authorities there can charge rates on them even if no traffic is running.

corktina

i agree with Inchicoredude. Surveys are meaningless unless they are worded very neutrally and very carefully.

The locals need asking something like " will we spend €200 million of YOUR tax money on this line which probably will carry 7 passengers per train or less OR will we spend €2million on a cycleway/footpath which may be used by a greater number of persons OR will we plough the effing thing into the ground (or do nothing)"

eastwest

I suppose the simple answer is that cycle trails work everywhere else; we aren't some kind of special case. Ireland has chosen not to compete in one of the fastest growing and most lucrative tourism segments, but the creation of a very cheap cycle path on the Claremorris-Collooney Route, with additional mileage added in Sligo-Leitrim would give us a foothold in that market and would also give a boost to towns along the route.
Nobody argues with the need to build other infrastructure to support potential employment creation, and this is no different. The returns on this kind of relatively cheap infrastructure are immediate and spectacular, as can be seen elsewhere.
I see InchicoreDude's point about the need to question the logic of all spending decisions, but there is a clear need to go after this particular tourism segment and to put the infrastructure in place to allow the private sector to market product on the back of it.
The other option, as somebody else said, is to let this asset rot and forget about this neck of the woods altogether -- in another couple of generations there won't be enough people left along this corridor to worry about. However, if we didn't own this long strip of land it would be very difficult and costly to re-create it, so we should look at leveraging the asset for the benefit of the region and the country.
Or we could build a railway for slow trains, so that people could look at the decay from the train as they passed through.

InchicoreDude

foggy_lad wrote: »

Like the western rail corridor?
Yes of course because walking or cycling is a lot healthier than sitting on a train and the health benefits alone including savings in long term health costs are well worth the few million needed. People are far more likely to use a local amenity like a forest park or greenway than they are to use a railway that is seen as slow and expensive.
With a username like InchicoreDude can I ask do you have any railway connections?(not fishing for information, you don't have to answer.) if yes, would you consider your scepticism to be based on a bias towards rail transport?
What hard evidence, if any, do you see which is in any way in favour of reopening the two remaining stretches of the WRC?

The greenway is the least worse option as it only costs a small fraction of the railway yet provides a degree of protection to the allignment that equals the railway option and also provides a valuable amenity for the localities for now and the future.

Sorry, I think you misunderstand me.

I am NOT in favour of re-opening the Western Rail Corridor as a railway. I have clearly stated that in previous posts. So I have no bias towards railway. If anything, I would be biassed towards greenway (as I said, I actually used the part of the WRC as an unofficial greenway in the past!)

But I am just questioning the merits of a greenway as well. A least worst option does not necessarily = the best option.

From my viewpoint, you have rail enthusiasts who are saying "oh wouldnt it be great if the railway was re-opened" while you have greenway enthusiasts saying "oh wouldnt it be great if the railway was converted into a greenway".
The greenway group is just as flawed [as the railway group] with a lack of actual research into checking if this route is actually suitable as a greenway.

The locals need asking something like " will we spend €200 million of YOUR tax money on this line which probably will carry 7 passengers per train or less OR will we spend €2million on a cycleway/footpath which may be used by a greater number of persons OR will we plough the effing thing into the ground (or do nothing)"

Well to be honest, why is the "do nothing" such a bad option? I would prefer that to spending 2million on something that is not regularly used..... That is my point, I just dont see any huge evidence from people here that the greenway would be used to justify such an investment.

Banjoxed

eastwest wrote: »

I suppose the simple answer is that cycle trails work everywhere else; we aren't some kind of special case. Ireland has chosen not to compete in one of the fastest growing and most lucrative tourism segments, but the creation of a very cheap cycle path on the Claremorris-Collooney Route, with additional mileage added in Sligo-Leitrim would give us a foothold in that market and would also give a boost to towns along the route.
Nobody argues with the need to build other infrastructure to support potential employment creation, and this is no different. The returns on this kind of relatively cheap infrastructure are immediate and spectacular, as can be seen elsewhere.
I see InchicoreDude's point about the need to question the logic of all spending decisions, but there is a clear need to go after this particular tourism segment and to put the infrastructure in place to allow the private sector to market product on the back of it.
The other option, as somebody else said, is to let this asset rot and forget about this neck of the woods altogether -- in another couple of generations there won't be enough people left along this corridor to worry about. However, if we didn't own this long strip of land it would be very difficult and costly to re-create it, so we should look at leveraging the asset for the benefit of the region and the country.
Or we could build a railway for slow trains, so that people could look at the decay from the train as they passed through.

There's a catch - isn't all of the Sligo Leitrim in private hands - a major buy back would be involved surely and as noted upthread paved over by existing major roads at various points. Can't see that as a runner. Sustrans already have the Kingfisher cycle trail in Leitrim and Fermanagh and a part off road route from Ballyshannon to Ballycastle via Derry which uses some extant railway paths. The statistics must exist showing what has been generated in Northern Ireland and Donegal from cycle tourism.

eastwest

Banjoxed wrote: »

There's a catch - isn't all of the Sligo Leitrim in private hands - a major buy back would be involved surely and as noted upthread paved over by existing major roads at various points. Can't see that as a runner. Sustrans already have the Kingfisher cycle trail in Leitrim and Fermanagh and a part off road route from Ballyshannon to Ballycastle via Derry which uses some extant railway paths. The statistics must exist showing what has been generated in Northern Ireland and Donegal from cycle tourism.

Not all in private hands as far as I know; I had a look at it several years back and walked a few sections of it that still seem intact in that they are separate from adjoining lands, although I can't say for sure that they are in public ownership -- maybe not. You're right about the roads though; the county council has encroached on it in several places in the course of road-widening.
The Westport to Achill greenway is largely built as a permissive access model, with ownership remaining with farmers despite the existence of the trail, an the Leitrim route would have to be the same. The Claremorris-Collooney route is still mostly in public ownership which would make it a much cheaper option than the Westport-Achill one, or the Leitrim one for that matter.
The Kingfisher trail is well used, despite being on road and hilly in spots. More a trail for the racing bike brigade than the pannier people though.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

More a trail for the racing bike brigade than the pannier people though.

And certainly not for families out for a day out with children under the age of 8. That is the beauty of the greenway model on the old rail line it will provide a family friendly facility for all the towns and villages it passes through- the local benefits alone make it a runner

dowlingm

I wonder if the Claremorris-Collooney stretch would be something you could stage competitive races on as an annual event? It wouldn't require much disruption to public roads except marshalling crossing points which could be dealt with by providing the marshals with info from timing tags (probably better signalling than exists on it at the moment )

westtip

Interesting spread in the western people today (out on a monday from todays date), double page spread reaction to last weeks editorial with a 1,000 word article from SMG campaign arguing for a greenway, letter of support from Cllr Joe Mellett (chief whip of FG on Mayo coco) and four anti-greenway letters from cllr Patsy O'brienf of WOT, Helen Rochford Brennan of WOT, and the president of Claremorris Chamber of Commerce (strong WOT presence in that body), plus another person from Claremorris.

I am aware the paper received many letters supporting the greenway but chose not to publish them - they may do next week.

The important thing is the Western People has for the first time allowed the debate about a Greenway into the paper. It has been pitched, unfortunately as a Railway or Greenway battle - its not really now a choice of greenway or railway - as we all know the railway is not going to happen. Its a pity the idea of re-opening of the railway actually muddies the waters somewhat, but there you go that's the debate in the public media right now.

wonder88

How is the new station at Oranmore doing ? Drove past it last week and noticed about 10 cars parked there, and how much is a return ticket to Galway station.

eastwest

wonder88 wrote: »

How is the new station at Oranmore doing ? Drove past it last week and noticed about 10 cars parked there, and how much is a return ticket to Galway station.

Not busy from what I saw a few days back, but to be fair it's early days.
Interesting to see WOT 'claiming' this station; it's not on the WRC.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

Not busy from what I saw a few days back, but to be fair it's early days.
Interesting to see WOT 'claiming' this station; it's not on the WRC.

Yes indeed funny how this station which is clearly on the Galway Dublin line is being seen as part of the western rail corridor, as clearly stated on the WOT website (see quote below) - here is tricky question - will customers getting on and off at Oranmore but using Dublin-Galway trains be counted as "corridor" passengers, or will WOT only count those using "corridor" trains (ie those going to and from Limerick) I think I can see a wee bit of fudging going on the future! single fare one way is €5.10 if booked on line - which apparently you can do. I have no idea what alternative public transport (bus) to and from Galway/Oranmore costs or a cab share of 4 people sharing.

From the West on Track Website: The new station is part of the development of Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor and will be served by a mixture of Galway/Dublin and Galway/Athenry/Limerick services, with 23 services calling at the station daily (Mon-Fri), 22 on Saturdays, and 15 on Sundays. The journey time from Oranmore to Galway is just seven minutes, and customers can travel to Limerick, Dublin and a range of intermediate stations also.

dowlingm

eastwest wrote: »

Interesting to see WOT 'claiming' (Oranmore); it's not on the WRC.

It should have been built - as a two platform station - before either Ardrahan or Craughwell in the original 106m budget. The latter two should have had to line up with Crusheen etc.

wonder88

The fare from Oranmore to city is expensive enough. You would think IE would bring in an introductory price of say 3euro and 5 return to try and get people used to the service. The price they are charging does not compare well to fares on Dart and Dublin commuter trains.

eastwest

wonder88 wrote: »

The fare from Oranmore to city is expensive enough. You would think IE would bring in an introductory price of say 3euro and 5 return to try and get people used to the service. The price they are charging does not compare well to fares on Dart and Dublin commuter trains.

Irish rail is caught in a cleft stick regarding fares. Varadker mentioned recently that the Ennis-Athenry line was only covering 5% of costs from fares. If IR cuts fares by half, say, and doubles traffic as a result, they're still in the same situation.
It might actually be cheaper at times to run these trains with just a driver and to forget ticketing altogether. In that way the rest of the staffing costs would be eliminated and the losses wouldn't be any worse.
The key to a successful rail service is a rapid service and adequate numbers to sustain it. That's the problem with Ennis-Athenry, it wanders around the houses taking twice the time that a bus takes, and costs twice as much. Even halving the fares on it will still leave it unattractive for anyone who just wants to get from A to B as quickly as possible.
I'd love to know what percentage of the through traffic on Ennis-Athenry is on free travel passes. That market segment is one that doesn't worry too much about speed; they just want a day out.
The people who browbeat the previous government into opening this closed line have a lot to answer for. It might have been all right when we had money to burn, even if it was only an illusion, but it's not all right now. The money being wasted on keeping it open could be put to better use.

eastwest

corktina wrote: »

should be possible to work that out roughly....if the fare box is covering 5% of the costs and the line is losing €3 million per annum.....work that one out and you have the number of fare-paying passengers, deduct from total and that leaves pass-holders...only rough and I'm not doing the math!

Not sure if that will work. The fares are actually paid by the dept of social welfare. So although Irish Rail get paid, the taxpayer picks up the bill.

petronius

I am always amazed at the negative noise about the Western Rail Project
Many from Dublincentric folk

I think the western rail corridor has major potential for helping with the development of the west of ireland.
It surely enhances a commuter rail link to Galway and limerick two university towns which would surely have some student traffic options.
Ultimately Tourist traffic could be a major user of the potentially linking
Cork to Limerick, to ennis to athenry and galway and up to sligo
You could have a Waterford, Clonmel, Limerick and on to Galway
I would give tourists the option of staying on the western side of the country and not having to fliter back to dublin via the radial railway network

eastwest

petronius wrote: »

I am always amazed at the negative noise about the Western Rail Project
Many from Dublincentric folk

I think the western rail corridor has major potential for helping with the development of the west of ireland.
It surely enhances a commuter rail link to Galway and limerick two university towns which would surely have some student traffic options.
Ultimately Tourist traffic could be a major user of the potentially linking
Cork to Limerick, to ennis to athenry and galway and up to sligo
You could have a Waterford, Clonmel, Limerick and on to Galway
I would give tourists the option of staying on the western side of the country and not having to fliter back to dublin via the radial railway network

I don't think it really matters where people are from; this is a small island and anything that concerns taxpayers in one part of the country can be of interest everywhere else. I have every right to comment on issues that concern me as a taxpayer. I don't have to be from Claremorris to have an interest in this.
I'm not being negative about the Ennis Athenry line; I don't have to be, it's dismal performance speaks for itself. I'm just trying up cut through the fog of debate to find out how bad the situation really is vis-a-vis this poorly-planned project.
The point I was making was this. Leo Varadker says that the route is only paying 5% of running costs from fares. Now, if a percentage of those fares are also paid by the taxpayer under the free travel scheme, then the situation is actually even worse than that. How much worse? I don't know, to be honest, that's what I'm trying to find out.
That's the kind of detail I'm trying to get to the truth of, where I come from shouldn't matter to you.
The defence of 'them Dublin crowd is out to get us' doesn't wash any more. A project either stands up or it doesn't, and government ministers increasingly have to deal wih that reality. Recent statements from both Leo Varadker and Alan Kelly show clearly that government is not going to throw good money after bad by opening any more disused lines.
Anyone who still can't see that, or who keeps on about using a nineteenth century rail alignment as the backbone of economic growth in the west, has their head not only buried in the sand but in a long-past era.
It's over. There will be no western rail corridor, not in our lifetimes and not in that alignment, that's for sure. Any government that pulled a Celtic tiger style strike and wasted a billion euro on such a project would be anhilated at the polls, even in the west -- there are lots of hard-pressed taxpayers there too.

westtip

petronius wrote: »

I am always amazed at the negative noise about the Western Rail Project
Many from Dublincentric folk

well the campaign for a greenway is not dublincentric:

Campaigners who met Alan Kelly live in the west

300 submissions to Mayo coco asking for a greenway on the old railway line were mainly from the west - many from businesses in the west and community groups in the towns the old railway alignment goes through
1200+ people surveyed in Swinford, county Mayo (which is in the West FYI), overwhelmingly favoured the idea of greenway on the alignment...

So there are many many voices in the west which recognize an alternative use of the alignment that currently exists which is called the "western rail corridor" is an option we should take. The western rail corridor does not have unanimous support in the west - believe me.

Tuam Greenway Project

petronius wrote: »

I am always amazed at the negative noise about the Western Rail Project
Many from Dublincentric folk

We are not negative about the Western Rail Project, we simply don't believe it will ever be delivered, or at least not in the age of the combustion engine. So in the meantime lets put those rusty tracks to some good use with sustainable transport options for locals and tourists.

Not from Dublin or minded that way.

galwaycyclist

Frank McDonald in today's Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dispute-over-future-of-disused-western-rail-corridor-1.1506366

Markcheese

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Frank McDonald in today's Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dispute-over-future-of-disused-western-rail-corridor-1.1506366

I just read that as" nothing will be done by Mayo cc , as politically it makes more sense to placate each side, do nothing and grumble about how dublin does nothing for the west

Judgement Day

Won't be long now before we see this scene again!

eastwest

Judgement Day wrote: »

Won't be long now before we see this scene again!

Not unless they make a movie about 'the good old days'. ;-)

monument

Please note the name change and the split of posts.

Please generally keep on the topic as the thread title -- given the topics are interlinked some overlap is expected, but try to keep away from posting mostly about the other thread topic.

On this thread, for time and sanity reasons, I have only gone back so far and spit the posts of discussing the section running.

- moderator

westtip

Markcheese wrote: »

I just read that as" nothing will be done by Mayo cc , as politically it makes more sense to placate each side, do nothing and grumble about how dublin does nothing for the west

Yes but can you imagine that article five years ago? West on Track have now been challenged and they no longer represent the only option. It is the greenway campaigners who have the dialogue going on with national government and it is the greenway campaign that is driving the agenda. West on Track are only reacting, and the comment made by their spokesperson in this article sums up the arrogance of this organisation - any spokesperson saying this "“The only viable way of establishing a greenway on that route would be to lift the railway” – and West on Track vehemently opposes any such move is spoken as if West on Track will make the decision about the railway as if they own the alignment - A decision will be made and West on Track and the Greenway supporters will have to live with it...

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Yes but can you imagine that article five years ago? West on Track have now been challenged and they no longer represent the only option. It is the greenway campaigners who have the dialogue going on with national government and it is the greenway campaign that is driving the agenda. West on Track are only reacting, and the comment made by their spokesperson in this article sums up the arrogance of this organisation - any spokesperson saying this "“The only viable way of establishing a greenway on that route would be to lift the railway” – and West on Track vehemently opposes any such move is spoken as if West on Track will make the decision about the railway as if they own the alignment - A decision will be made and West on Track and the Greenway supporters will have to live with it...

Their comments are daft; even if a railway was being built, you'd have to lift the existing light railway and re-engineer the alignment. Have they walked it recently? Rotting sleepers, blocked every hundred yards by farm fences, manure heaps, baled silage etc.
Don't lift the track? The track has to come up, either way.
As I recall, they're basing this mantra on something willie Nelson said somewhere, to the effect that if you lift the rails, it's all over. Have they all been at the weed?
It's a over anyway. The debate is now greenway or adverse possession. Rail was never on the agenda from Claremorris to Collooney, and that's certainly the case now, more than ever.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

Their comments are daft; even if a railway was being built, you'd have to lift the existing light railway and re-engineer the alignment. Have they walked it recently? Rotting sleepers, blocked every hundred yards by farm fences, manure heaps, baled silage etc.
Don't lift the track? The track has to come up, either way.
As I recall, they're basing this mantra on something willie Nelson said somewhere, to the effect that if you lift the rails, it's all over. Have they all been at the weed?
It's a over anyway. The debate is now greenway or adverse possession. Rail was never on the agenda from Claremorris to Collooney, and that's certainly the case now, more than ever.

Exactly, West on Track have become obsessed with stopping the greenway for which there now seems overwhelming support according to that article in the Irish Times, West on Track should be looking at the encroachment on the line that has happened on their watch about which nothing has been done - in fact it is only the Greenway campaign that has bought this to the public attention and to the attention of the respective councils. Don't lift the track is a smoke screen - have a look at the attached .pdf about encroachment ont he line! And then ask West on Track have they not noticed this going on in the past ten years and before????

Tuam Greenway Project

eastwest wrote: »

Their comments are daft; even if a railway was being built, you'd have to lift the existing light railway and re-engineer the alignment. Have they walked it recently? Rotting sleepers, blocked every hundred yards by farm fences, manure heaps, baled silage etc.
Don't lift the track? The track has to come up, either way.
As I recall, they're basing this mantra on something willie Nelson said somewhere, to the effect that if you lift the rails, it's all over. Have they all been at the weed?
It's a over anyway. The debate is now greenway or adverse possession. Rail was never on the agenda from Claremorris to Collooney, and that's certainly the case now, more than ever.

Encroachment....By a County Councillor

https://www.facebook.com/#!/ListowelRailwalk?hc_location=timeline