Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

foggy_lad

I say reopen the western rail corridor all the way to Sligo and beyond but only when the local population raise the funding to complete the project including purchasing or leasing trains and lodge the same amount as a bond to cover any unforseen things like a rise in costs. They must also raise the first three years running costs to be managed by West on Track.

If this succeeds then it can be left in the hands of WOT or passed over to irish rail to run.

rainbowdash

westtip wrote: »

In one word Yes. It would become part of the national cycle network - it would be an easy solution to connect the proposed sligo north leitrim greenway connecting Sligo with Enniskillen - with the claremorris collooney route to connect with the Great Western greenway this would provide a continuous cycle path from Enniskillen to Achill on uninterrupted vehicle free route - this would be a big tourist attraction. The route is never likely to be opened again as a railway, we all know that - the cost of the 42 mile greenway could come in at less than 3 million. Worth doing? Most definitely. What the editor didn't do is explain why a one billion euro investment in a railway in this part of the west of ireland could be justified.

The Sligo Enniskillen section does not presently exist, and may never exist?

How would you easily get from Claremorris to Westport?

How do you know it would be a big tourist attraction, it might be but it could be a flop.

Maybe it would be better to continue from Achill along the coast to Belmullet and Ballina and on into Sligo.

I think that's the point of the article, don't just take the lazy option but explore what might give more bang for the buck.

eastwest

rainbowdash wrote: »

The Sligo Enniskillen section does not prevestly, and may never exist?

How would you easily get from Claremorris to Westport?

How do you know it would be a big tourist attraction, it might be but it could be a flop.

Maybe it would be better to continue from Achill along the coast to Belmullet and Ballina and on into Sligo.

I think that's the point of the article, don't just take the lazy option but explore what might give more bang for the buck.

The Leitrim and northern counties railway connected collooney to Enniskillen. There is a funded project (at early stages) to create a greenway on this route. Some of the route has been lost to public ownership and would have to be bought back, but this project will happen in time.
The Claremorris Collooney section is still mostly in public ownership and could be completed more quickly and cost-effectively. If done from Collooney to Kiltimagh it could extend the Castlebar-Achill route to give a decent trail that runs through beautiful unspoiled countryside and that is flat and well suited to cyclists. It also would serve some very attractive heritage towns like Swinford, places that are ideal for overnight stops.
Collooney, as many people have pointed out, can easily be connected to Sligo by using the existing trails through Union Wood. In a matter of months, if there was the will, we could have a Sligo-Achill trail that could give ireland an entry to the cycle holiday business. At the minute, we only have the one-day trail at Westport, and we're missing out on the real business, cycling holidays.
It would be easy for any tour operator to bring clients in through Knock, bus them to Sligo for an overnight, and send them off on bikes on the morning in the direction of Achill, with a few pre-booked overnights on the way. Not to mention Irish people wanting to get away from traffic for a few days.
A lot better than waiting thirty or forty years for the population numbers to make a train possible, assuming the baby boom continues and nobody emigrates!

eastwest

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I am not in favour of re-opening the Western Rail Corridor.

However, that editor makes a valid point in saying that it is something of a lazy option just to turn the railway into a greenway because it happens to be there. I am not familiar with the line at all north of Claremorris so I dont know if a greenway would actually be worth doing there. Would it?

It would.
The countryside along the line is completely unspoiled, with a complete absence of 'bungalow bliss' development. Nothing but bogs, rural landscapes, woodland and some very interesting railway heritage buildings, bridges etc.
The route is also almost dead flat and perfect for cycling. It also passes through some very attractive heritage towns that are well worth a visit.

eastwest

serfboard wrote: »

That article is absolutely hilarious it's so bad.

Yeah. I demand a TGV between Galway and Sligo run along a 19th century alignment :rolleyes:

More "ye're all agin' the Wesht" nonsense. You see, Mr. Editor, we have these things now called "cars". And we even have "buses". And we prefer them (as numbers on Ennis-Athenry are showing) to a "slow, infrequent and costly" (NTA survey) rail service.

And the eulogising of Mgr. Horan is also quite humourous. The airport exists because of him, fine. But its success came in spite of him. His goal was to use it to bring pilgrims in (including from America). It's actually being used to bring emigrants and holidaymakers out, and to facilitate the UK-based diaspora and their families returning to the ould sod.

The Horan angle may explain some of the more virulent opposition to the idea of protecting the route with a greenway for the next few decades. Is it possible that a large clerical ego somewhere near the centre of WOT might be getting in the way of rational thinking? Does somebody want to prove that the Catholic Church can still 'deliver' big projects in the way that Horan 'delivered' knock airport?
Is somebody hoping for a lump of bronze made in their likeness at Claremorris station?
I think we should be told. ;-)

westtip

rainbowdash wrote: »

I think that's the point of the article, don't just take the lazy option but explore what might give more bang for the buck.

You mean lets contemplate our navels for another 20 years and consider options that might never materialise, yes there are options to build greenways elsewhere but lets do what's easy and achievable first. You me and the dogs on the street know a railway is not happening from claremorris to collooney anytime soon - in fact from Athenry to tuam and then Claremorris anytime soon. We happen to own the strip of land the old rail alignment sits on (well most of it is still in tact - but no thanks to our councils who have allowed bits to be built on here and there), in 20 years time when we have stopped navel gazing the strip of land might be gone. Lets stop pussy footing around and do something with it. Its not an article its an editorial, an article written by a journalist should be properly researched. The editor of The Western, despite a number of invitations to try and meet him has never met with anyone from the SMG campaign, the editorial was driven by frankly I don't know what, or perhaps WOT, (sic). East West has laid out the thinking for you on why we want this greenway to connect with others and build a network, its not rocket science and is not simplistic thinking as The Western seems to think it is, but there you go. Newspaper editorials should be opinion forming based on rationale arguments - did you see any rationale arguments in this piece? I didn't

rainbowdash

eastwest wrote: »

The Leitrim and northern counties railway connected collooney to Enniskillen. There is a funded project (at early stages) to create a greenway on this route. Some of the route has been lost to public ownership and would have to be bought back, but this project will happen in time.
The Claremorris Collooney section is still mostly in public ownership and could be completed more quickly and cost-effectively. If done from Collooney to Kiltimagh it could extend the Castlebar-Achill route to give a decent trail that runs through beautiful unspoiled countryside and that is flat and well suited to cyclists. It also would serve some very attractive heritage towns like Swinford, places that are ideal for overnight stops.
Collooney, as many people have pointed out, can easily be connected to Sligo by using the existing trails through Union Wood. In a matter of months, if there was the will, we could have a Sligo-Achill trail that could give ireland an entry to the cycle holiday business. At the minute, we only have the one-day trail at Westport, and we're missing out on the real business, cycling holidays.
It would be easy for any tour operator to bring clients in through Knock, bus them to Sligo for an overnight, and send them off on bikes on the morning in the direction of Achill, with a few pre-booked overnights on the way. Not to mention Irish people wanting to get away from traffic for a few days.
A lot better than waiting thirty or forty years for the population numbers to make a train possible, assuming the baby boom continues and nobody emigrates!

Theres a lot of wishful thinking there!

Maybe its better conduct a full review of the options before going for the Collooney - Claremorris route along the WRC.

Its no different to a new road, they draft a few different route corridors.

Enniskillen-Collooney is privately owned, why bother with the old route at all.

Maybe they could go from Sligo to Bundoran along the coast instead.

As regards flying tourists to knock and busing tourists around, if Kerry put a better cycling tourism package together, along better quality routes, all the tourists might go that way.

Its important the best options are chosen, not just the one that might link to another greenway that might never be built.

westtip

rainbowdash wrote: »

How do you know it would be a big tourist attraction, it might be but it could be a flop.

Like the railway line from Ennis to Athenry? Here is a wee reminder of WOT that was going to achieve:

West on Track July 20th 2009 The Western Rail Corridor ....... will deliver many thousands of jobs in private sector companies, once operational.

- So tell me about the thousands of jobs????

The Sligo Mayo greenway will succeed in particular when it is connected to Great Western Greenway and the Sligo North Leitrim Greenway - please come back and haunt me with this quote in ten years time. I am confident in what I am saying because this kind of tourism infrastructure works wonders the world over, but then again I might be worried because this is Ireland and we are so different from the rest of the world we might even screw up a simple project like this.

westtip

rainbowdash wrote: »

Theres a lot of wishful thinking there!

Maybe its better conduct a full review of the options before going for the Collooney - Claremorris route along the WRC.

Its no different to a new road, they draft a few different route corridors.

Enniskillen-Collooney is privately owned, why bother with the old route at all.

Maybe they could go from Sligo to Bundoran along the coast instead.

As regards flying tourists to knock and busing tourists around, if Kerry put a better cycling tourism package together, along better quality routes, all the tourists might go that way.

Its important the best options are chosen, not just the one that might link to another greenway that might never be built.

Procrastination - we just love it in this country - tell me when they built the Western Rail Corridor phase one - was any consideration given to routes that might take the railway on a more direct route to Galway, that might actually connect with Shannon airport. No. Because it was all about a toy train set on an old railway line that was never going to deliver what anyone wanted, and now because a group comes along and dares challenge the opinions of WOT and garners a lot of public support - the solution from WOT is to contemplate our navels for another 20 years. laughable.

Its very different from building a new road - we happen to own this piece of land,

Tell us what are the options - buy more land for a greenway when we have the land available on the abandoned rail line - what is clear from this article is the tactic now from West on Track is to stop the momentum the greenway campaign has built up and to delay the greenway at all costs by throwing out arguments such as lets look at other routes for greenways - well how about this - if the frigging railway is going to be so important to the west lets do it right and go look for a route that can deliver a decent product - I don't hear any rail lobbyist suggesting this do you?. They certainly didn't say it about the route for Ennis - Athenry - which by the way is not the route you would choose for an intercity service from Limerick to Galway - oh no - its let open our railway and save the west from starvation and as the quote says deliver thousands of jobs. Lets blow away this smoke screen West on Track are trying to throw in front of our legislators, because its just delaying tactics and we know it.

rainbowdash

westtip wrote: »

Like the railway line from Ennis to Athenry? Here is a wee reminder of WOT that was going to achieve:

- So tell me about the thousands of jobs????

The Sligo Mayo greenway will succeed in particular when it is connected to Great Western Greenway and the Sligo North Leitrim Greenway - please come back and haunt me with this quote in ten years time. I am confident in what I am saying because this kind of tourism infrastructure works wonders the world over, but then again I might be worried because this is Ireland and we are so different from the rest of the world we might even screw up a simple project like this.

What Sligo North Leitrim Greenway, it doesn't exist, and might never happen.

Why are you bashing WOT again, I am just saying there may be a better route to take than along the old railway. It has nothing to do with the success or failure of Ennis - Athenry.

I ain't saying open the railway, just saying there might be better routes for the greenway which will deliver better returns, why not explore the options, than pick the wrong route.

Everything you do seems to come back to west on track and a hatred of them, like suggesting they are behind the western people article and everything else that goes on etc.

You seem to be obsessed that the greenway goes over that old railway at all costs, nothing else is an option.

westtip

rainbowdash wrote: »

You seem to be obsessed that the greenway goes over that old railway at all costs, nothing else is an option.

Well the railway isn't an option because we can't afford it - so if you can think up something else that will deliver jobs and create something we can make good use of please do.

I am not bashing WOT - I am merely saying their arguments and theories and results in what they attained from Ennis to Athenry don't stack up to a whole row of beans. They pushed for Ennis - Athenry, it cost the country a lot of money, they made great claims about what a success it would be ... and guess what - as predicted by many before it happened they got it completely wrong. I am not bashing them I am simply pointing out they got things wildly wrong and the credibility of their arguments to extend the WRC any further have been blown out of the water.

This is not personalised, but they got it wrong wrong wrong.

eastwest

rainbowdash wrote: »

Everything you do seems to come back to west on track and a hatred of them, like suggesting they are behind the western people article and everything else that goes on .

I don't want to start off a conspiracy theory, but I f anyone cares to have a look at the WOT Facebook page, they will find a full copy of the Western People editorial, word for word.
Not a photo of the article, a full transcript.
So, three possible scenarios occur to me, at any rate.
1. Somebody in WOT sat down and retyped the article in full.
2. Somebody in the paper passed the article to WOT in electronic format.
3. WOT wrote the piece for the paper.

I'm just sayin' !

Tuam Greenway Project

eastwest wrote: »

I don't want to start off a conspiracy theory, but I f anyone cares to have a look at the WOT Facebook page, they will find a full copy of the Western People editorial, word for word.
Not a photo of the article, a full transcript.
So, three possible scenarios occur to me, at any rate.
1. Somebody in WOT sat down and retyped the article in full.
2. Somebody in the paper passed the article to WOT in electronic format.
3. WOT wrote the piece for the paper.

I'm just sayin' !

Its littered with typos so it's probably either 1. or 3.
Scenario 3. is bad!, 1. is just sad.

westtip

one of my favourite channels is the history channel, in years to come when the history channel does a special programme on the Western Rail Corridor one of their greatest sources of information will be the west on track website, an organisation that prides itself on issuing press releases like confetti.

Today I was accused on this thread of hating West on Track, let me reiterate I don't hate West on Track. I do hate wasted public money.

Trawling the WOT website today here is a little classic, which is worth re-reading and remembering - this pressure group used these stats to ensure our money was wasted. As a pressure group their arguments have failed miserably. So have a look at this.

http://www.westontrack.com/news178.htm

Many products have been launched on the back of positive market research, New Coke researched very well - and apparently in blind tests it still scores better than the real thing, but here you go a bit of tea time reading from 2006 I will spare the whole thing you can click on the link if you want

Opinion Poll Findings show Significant Passenger Demand for Western Rail Corridor

Press Release 31st October 2006

after blathering on about the thousands who were going to use the WRC the press release concludes with this:

"The findings of the TG4 poll clearly justify the decision to proceed with the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC and should encourage the Government to include Phase 2 from Athenry to Claremorris immediately.
Working from the statistics in the poll it may be seen that potentially greater numbers of people would be using that one section of the WRC annually than currently use the Belfast-Dublin route, with numbers being at least as great as those currently using the Limerick-Dublin, Westport-Dublin and Sligo-Dublin routes," he added.

Example:

23% of respondents say they will use the train at least once a month.

As a % of total pop of Co. Galway over 18 yrs (150,000 approx):

= 34,500 people x 12 months

= 414,000 x 2 (return trips count as 2)

= 828,000 = DEMAND

Note: WEST ON TRACK projected a demand of 750,000

Two words are necessary: Hog Wash.

monument

rainbowdash wrote: »

What Sligo North Leitrim Greenway, it doesn't exist, and might never happen.

Why are you bashing WOT again, I am just saying there may be a better route to take than along the old railway. It has nothing to do with the success or failure of Ennis - Athenry.

I ain't saying open the railway, just saying there might be better routes for the greenway which will deliver better returns, why not explore the options, than pick the wrong route.

Everything you do seems to come back to west on track and a hatred of them, like suggesting they are behind the western people article and everything else that goes on etc.

You seem to be obsessed that the greenway goes over that old railway at all costs, nothing else is an option.

What exactly do you mean by "bashing"? And what part of the post you quoted includes "bashing" WoT?

And, also, what part of the same post you quoted includes "hatred"?

- Moderator

LivelineDipso

eastwest wrote: »

The Leitrim and northern counties railway connected collooney to Enniskillen. There is a funded project (at early stages) to create a greenway on this route. Some of the route has been lost to public ownership and would have to be bought back, but this project will happen in time.
The Claremorris Collooney section is still mostly in public ownership and could be completed more quickly and cost-effectively. If done from Collooney to Kiltimagh it could extend the Castlebar-Achill route to give a decent trail that runs through beautiful unspoiled countryside and that is flat and well suited to cyclists. It also would serve some very attractive heritage towns like Swinford, places that are ideal for overnight stops.
Collooney, as many people have pointed out, can easily be connected to Sligo by using the existing trails through Union Wood. In a matter of months, if there was the will, we could have a Sligo-Achill trail that could give ireland an entry to the cycle holiday business. At the minute, we only have the one-day trail at Westport, and we're missing out on the real business, cycling holidays.
It would be easy for any tour operator to bring clients in through Knock, bus them to Sligo for an overnight, and send them off on bikes on the morning in the direction of Achill, with a few pre-booked overnights on the way. Not to mention Irish people wanting to get away from traffic for a few days.
A lot better than waiting thirty or forty years for the population numbers to make a train possible, assuming the baby boom continues and nobody emigrates!

There is almost nothing left of the SL&NC. I can't think of a railway line in Ireland which has so totally vanished off the map. Lots of it under main busy roads.

westtip

LivelineDipso wrote: »

There is almost nothing left of the SL&NC. I can't think of a railway line in Ireland which has so totally vanished off the map. Lots of it under main busy roads.

Yes this is why it is so baffling that Sligo coco didn't go for the shoe in project that Minister Kelly would have funded in an instant -

In March, 2013 the Department of Transport, Tourism & Sport (DTT&S) announced a National Cycle Network Seed Funding Scheme. The Scheme was devised with the aim of providing start-up support to local authorities for cycle projects considered to have merit from the perspective of generating recreational, tourism and economic activity and for which the authority did not have the resources for initial planning and design work. Local authorities were invited to submit expressions of interest and were advised that priority would be given to high quality, off-road greenway routes that have the potential to be world class trip attracters in their own right.

The Sligo County Development plan 2011 – 2017 has a specific clause in it about the proposed Sligo Mayo Greenway, namely to 'support the development of a footway and cycleway (greenway)' -- 'from Claremorris to Collooney, subject to compliance with the requirements of the Habitats Directive '.

Why didn’t the council use the invitation from the DTT&S to apply for seed funding to meet a specific objective set out in the county plan? The county plan is an important policy document – the policies and objectives contained therein have been the subject to public scrutiny and approval by the council members. The fact that the county plan includes this greenway as an objective to achieve between 2011 and 2017 would have placed the application in a strong position to secure funding.

Why they didn't apply for the funds to meet this objective = well perhaps the conspiracy theorists are right.

rainbowdash

monument wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by "bashing"? And what part of the post you quoted includes "bashing" WoT?

And, also, what part of the same post you quoted includes "hatred"?

- Moderator

Correct me if I am wrong but are we supposed to not reply to a moderator when they write in bold?

If so then why the question marks?

monument

rainbowdash wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but are we supposed to not reply to a moderator when they write in bold?

If so then why the question marks?

Sorry: I should have said: for clarity I'm asking in thread and you can reply in the same way.

InchicoreDude

westtip wrote: »

Well the railway isn't an option because we can't afford it - so if you can think up something else that will deliver jobs and create something we can make good use of please do.

I am not bashing WOT - I am merely saying their arguments and theories and results in what they attained from Ennis to Athenry don't stack up to a whole row of beans. They pushed for Ennis - Athenry, it cost the country a lot of money, they made great claims about what a success it would be ... and guess what - as predicted by many before it happened they got it completely wrong. I am not bashing them I am simply pointing out they got things wildly wrong and the credibility of their arguments to extend the WRC any further have been blown out of the water.

This is not personalised, but they got it wrong wrong wrong.

I think it is fair to say WoT got it wrong. And that they are probably not quite in touch with reality.

However, some of the arguments you make against them could also be applied to the greenway proposition. The people in favour of a greenway option are pushing or a greenway (just like WoT did for Ennis - Athenry). Presumably, a greenway will also cost money. Has there actually been a feasibility study (or something similar) carried out for a greenway on the rail line?

Dont get me wrong, I would love to see something done with the rail line and in theory a greenway sounds terrific. But has there been any research done to determine if it would be used?

galwaycyclist

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I think it is fair to say WoT got it wrong. And that they are probably not quite in touch with reality.

However, some of the arguments you make against them could also be applied to the greenway proposition. The people in favour of a greenway option are pushing or a greenway (just like WoT did for Ennis - Athenry). Presumably, a greenway will also cost money. Has there actually been a feasibility study (or something similar) carried out for a greenway on the rail line?

Dont get me wrong, I would love to see something done with the rail line and in theory a greenway sounds terrific. But has there been any research done to determine if it would be used?

Long story short and leaving out the foreign tourists. In 2007 the HSE did research indicating that 28% of Irish adults had used a bicycle in the last year. So your potential market is 28% of the local adult population.

westtip

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I think it is fair to say WoT got it wrong. And that they are probably not quite in touch with reality.

However, some of the arguments you make against them could also be applied to the greenway proposition. The people in favour of a greenway option are pushing or a greenway (just like WoT did for Ennis - Athenry). Presumably, a greenway will also cost money. Has there actually been a feasibility study (or something similar) carried out for a greenway on the rail line?

Dont get me wrong, I would love to see something done with the rail line and in theory a greenway sounds terrific. But has there been any research done to determine if it would be used?

Lets take the point about money. A greenway on this route will cost circa 2-4 million depending on the specification - compare this with a railway? about 100 times as much possibly, comparing the greenway demands to the railway lobbyist demands is simply not credible. One group wants to spend a billion (we have to have Athenry Tuam claremorris built before Claremorris/Collooney can be considered) the other group (greenway) no more (we suspect) than 4 million. There is no comparison in our demands, so lets knock that one on the head. There is actually money available for greenways - as they cost such modest amounts of money they are achievable - we may be broke but some things are still happening - and building a national cycle network seems to be an area we do have capital money for.

"Feasibility study" - yes we would welcome this, and are surprised Sligo coco didn't ask for seed funding to do just this as per my post a couple back - because a not so publicized fact is that Sligo coco have already recognised a greenway could go on this route in the current Sligo county plan 2011-2017. It is an objective they set themselves on ink and paper, public policy they signed upto, popped in a draw in the desk and now are doing nothing to achieve this objective.

Re would it be used, well the proof of the pudding is always in the eating, and as we know from Ennis-Athenry Rail line research won't always tell us the truth - again see the posts a few posts back about research carried out in 2006, but the laws of likelihood and probability would seem to suggest it would be used, and here is the evidence:

1300 people already surveyed in Swinford overwhelmingly said they wanted a greenway on this route - when surveyed for a document now in the public domain called Swinford Vision of the future.

300 people made submissions to Mayo coco asking for this project to go ahead, one assumes this level of motivation to make submissions to a council is evidence it is wanted and will be used.

Whilst social media is an inexact art - the fact the SMG campaign has nearly 3,000 "likes" on Facebook would seem to indicate people want to see this happen. (BTW the FB page of WOT has less than 400 "likes")

Great Western Greenway? Plus the fact in every other country these kind of facilities are built they get used, why do we have to think Ireland is so different. People are the same the world over, It's basically a footpath we are talking about why would't local people use such a facility - do we need research to prove people will use a footpath which will be free of charge, a safe facility for families and disabled people, Why can't we apply some simple common sense reasoning and say yes -mmmmm a footpath... I wonder if people will use that? - lets give some management consultants 30 grand to find out the answer. WTF is that all about?

Anyway if you want research on the tourist side - please look at the Failte Ireland survey of 2007 into cycling tourism, google it or find it on the FI website - here are a couple of quotes from the report: “Cycling on Irish roads is not perceived to be safe – cyclists face dangerous bends, fast cars, intimidating HGVs, more traffic and higher speeds;” TRY CYCLING ON THE N17.
” There are very few, if any, traffic-free routes to cater for touring cyclists wanting to leave the cities to discover the countryside or for families who wish to participate in cycling;”EXACTLY WHAT THE SMG WILL ACHIEVE

In fact I am going to dedicate another post to this survey so this one won't be overlong

So will it be used - well I cannot say but using the power of deduction of the evidence so far I would say yes. And as an ex girlfriend said to me once "no Sh*t sherlock I think the answer is yes"

There is a cost involved yes, but in real terms (and certainly compared to a railway) it is minimal and low risk - in fact it is no risk as it protects the asset and property in perpetuity - it could be seen as an insurance premium to protect the route in the event a railway ever becomes possible - it is difficult to police encroachment on the line, a greenway will be the protector of the route. For that price alone its worth paying.

Anyway having said all that a feasibility study would be a very welcome first step - we know such a study will have to take place - and don't expect a sod to be turned unless its done - so let's at least get that done.

Does this address your issues? I hope so.

westtip

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Dont get me wrong, I would love to see something done with the rail line and in theory a greenway sounds terrific. But has there been any research done to determine if it would be used?

As promised a reply dedicated to this part of your question.

Take a look at the sustrans website and go to research about the economic benefits of greenways - but regarding research carried out in this country go no further than the Failte Ireland 2007 survey, a copy of this survey is attached but here are some key extracts, it's mainly problems identified by tourists - btw nobody mentioned the lack of scenery near Claremorris. (sic)

A pivotal report that identified how far Ireland was lagging behind its direct competitors (Wales and England in particular). Identified our weaknesses and opportunities - the Sligo Mayo greenway is such an opportunity

“Cycling on Irish roads is not perceived to be safe – cyclists face dangerous bends, fast cars, intimidating HGVs, more traffic and higher speeds;”

Try the N17

”

There are very few, if any, traffic-free routes to cater for touring cyclists wanting to leave the cities to discover the countryside or for families who wish to participate in cycling;”

“

Compared with other European destinations, the system and facilities in Ireland for the carriage of bikes on trains is poor and cycle parking facilities at many train stations are inadequate”

A good point imagine taking the train to Collooney from Dublin then cycling to Westport?

“

The lack of good quality, strategically located, professionally run bicycle and accessory hire facilities is a key constraint.”

They will happen if we have the network

There is a strong need to create some world-class traffic-free routes to cater particularly for those touring cyclists leaving the cities to discover the countryside.”

Enough said

“Recommendations are made for the creation, on half a dozen or so routes, of high quality traffic free sections to enable cyclists of all abilities to leave built-up areas and by-pass busy dangerous roads. “

.....Like the N17??

“Cyclists, particularly less experienced and young cyclists, like to be away from traffic”

It helps if children aren’t hit by 4x4s, trucks and cars.

“Greenways are always shared with pedestrians and sometimes with horses.”

The horse trail idea is also worth looking at

“Disused railway lines are plentiful in Ireland and these can provide excellent greenways. “

Oh really?

“Strategic greenways will become tourist attractions in their own rights, as is the case throughout Europe. “

Surely not

This report whilst very valid stated a lot of what ordinary people call common sense. All very interesting but hasn’t the time for reports and research come to an end – What we need is action to fulfil what these kind of reports say.

I hope this answers your question about has there any research been done.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

As promised a reply dedicated to this part of your question.

Take a look at the sustrans website and go to research about the economic benefits of greenways - but regarding research carried out in this country go no further than the Failte Ireland 2007 survey, a copy of this survey is attached but here are some key extracts, it's mainly problems identified by tourists - btw nobody mentioned the lack of scenery near Claremorris. (sic)

A pivotal report that identified how far Ireland was lagging behind its direct competitors (Wales and England in particular). Identified our weaknesses and opportunities - the Sligo Mayo greenway is such an opportunity

Try the N17

”

“ A good point imagine taking the train to Collooney from Dublin then cycling to Westport?

“ They will happen if we have the network

Enough said
.....Like the N17??
It helps if children aren’t hit by 4x4s, trucks and cars.
The horse trail idea is also worth looking at
Oh really?

Surely not

This report whilst very valid stated a lot of what ordinary people call common sense. All very interesting but hasn’t the time for reports and research come to an end – What we need is action to fulfil what these kind of reports say.

I hope this answers your question about has there any research been done.

What also needs to be remembered is that the next EU funding round has almost a billion Euro for cycling infrastructure. Ireland needs to get in there and capture some of this money; don't leave it all to the Germans with their 70,000 km of trails.
And don't waste it on strips of pink Tarmac; county councils are largely unable to understand anything that doesn't include roads.

InchicoreDude

westtip wrote: »

Lets take the point about money. A greenway on this route will cost circa 2-4 million depending on the specification - compare this with a railway? about 100 times as much possibly, comparing the greenway demands to the railway lobbyist demands is simply not credible. One group wants to spend a billion (we have to have Athenry Tuam claremorris built before Claremorris/Collooney can be considered) the other group (greenway) no more (we suspect) than 4 million. There is no comparison in our demands, so lets knock that one on the head. There is actually money available for greenways - as they cost such modest amounts of money they are achievable - we may be broke but some things are still happening - and building a national cycle network seems to be an area we do have capital money for.

"Feasibility study" - yes we would welcome this, and are surprised Sligo coco didn't ask for seed funding to do just this as per my post a couple back - because a not so publicized fact is that Sligo coco have already recognised a greenway could go on this route in the current Sligo county plan 2011-2017. It is an objective they set themselves on ink and paper, public policy they signed upto, popped in a draw in the desk and now are doing nothing to achieve this objective.

Re would it be used, well the proof of the pudding is always in the eating, and as we know from Ennis-Athenry Rail line research won't always tell us the truth - again see the posts a few posts back about research carried out in 2006, but the laws of likelihood and probability would seem to suggest it would be used, and here is the evidence:

1300 people already surveyed in Swinford overwhelmingly said they wanted a greenway on this route - when surveyed for a document now in the public domain called Swinford Vision of the future.

300 people made submissions to Mayo coco asking for this project to go ahead, one assumes this level of motivation to make submissions to a council is evidence it is wanted and will be used.

Whilst social media is an inexact art - the fact the SMG campaign has nearly 3,000 "likes" on Facebook would seem to indicate people want to see this happen. (BTW the FB page of WOT has less than 400 "likes")

Great Western Greenway? Plus the fact in every other country these kind of facilities are built they get used, why do we have to think Ireland is so different. People are the same the world over, It's basically a footpath we are talking about why would't local people use such a facility - do we need research to prove people will use a footpath which will be free of charge, a safe facility for families and disabled people, Why can't we apply some simple common sense reasoning and say yes -mmmmm a footpath... I wonder if people will use that? - lets give some management consultants 30 grand to find out the answer. WTF is that all about?

Anyway if you want research on the tourist side - please look at the Failte Ireland survey of 2007 into cycling tourism, google it or find it on the FI website - here are a couple of quotes from the report: “Cycling on Irish roads is not perceived to be safe – cyclists face dangerous bends, fast cars, intimidating HGVs, more traffic and higher speeds;” TRY CYCLING ON THE N17.
” There are very few, if any, traffic-free routes to cater for touring cyclists wanting to leave the cities to discover the countryside or for families who wish to participate in cycling;”EXACTLY WHAT THE SMG WILL ACHIEVE

In fact I am going to dedicate another post to this survey so this one won't be overlong

So will it be used - well I cannot say but using the power of deduction of the evidence so far I would say yes. And as an ex girlfriend said to me once "no Sh*t sherlock I think the answer is yes"

There is a cost involved yes, but in real terms (and certainly compared to a railway) it is minimal and low risk - in fact it is no risk as it protects the asset and property in perpetuity - it could be seen as an insurance premium to protect the route in the event a railway ever becomes possible - it is difficult to police encroachment on the line, a greenway will be the protector of the route. For that price alone its worth paying.

Anyway having said all that a feasibility study would be a very welcome first step - we know such a study will have to take place - and don't expect a sod to be turned unless its done - so let's at least get that done.

Does this address your issues? I hope so.

Yes, Thank you! However, 1300 people saying they want a greenway does not = people actually using the greenway.

At the end of the day, if there hasnt even been a feasibility study carried out on a possible greenway, then does that not make greenway advocates just as deluded as the railway advocates? For all ye know, a feasibility study might reveal all sorts of issues. So my question now is: Why hasnt there been a feasibility study carried out? Are there plans to carry one out?

westtip

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Yes, Thank you! However, 1300 people saying they want a greenway does not = people actually using the greenway.

At the end of the day, if there hasnt even been a feasibility study carried out on a possible greenway, then does that not make greenway advocates just as deluded as the railway advocates? For all ye know, a feasibility study might reveal all sorts of issues. So my question now is: Why hasnt there been a feasibility study carried out? Are there plans to carry one out?

For goodness sake this was 1300 people asking what they want to see improved in their own little town why would they say they want to see it happen if they are not going to take an evening stroll on it, its not like the people who said they would use the railway and then realised they would have to buy a ticket. FFS!! I have said it before we are talking about a frigging footpath that is safe to use with your kids in buggies on bikes to push your aged parents in wheelchairs on to have any disable member of your family on - Why wouldn't people use it, do we need a frigging survey and research to find out if people will use a frigging footpath!!!! Sorry but I think stating the ble*ding obvious does not need to be researched.

I agree with you about a feasibility study and if you read what I said about Sligo coco I cannot for the like of me reason why they did not ask for seed funding to look at it from Minister Kellys department, I can only hope that the councils are waking up to the public debate about this issue and now will ask for a feasibility study. Maybe I have been wrong all the time and no-one will use the frigging greenway. I can't answer why a feasibility study has not been done - it has been asked for and I don't know yet if there are plans to carry one out. Please address that question to the local and national representatives and necessary bodies!!!!!

Its not my fault a feasibility study hasn't been done is what I am saying!!!!
:mad::D:confused::eek: and every other emotion possible.

shazysps

easiest way to commute from dublin airport to waterford city??

corktina

shazysps wrote: »

easiest way to commute from dublin airport to waterford city??

Is this WoTs latest outrageous claim?

InchicoreDude

westtip wrote: »

For goodness sake this was 1300 people asking what they want to see improved in their own little town why would they say they want to see it happen if they are not going to take an evening stroll on it, its not like the people who said they would use the railway and then realised they would have to buy a ticket. FFS!! I have said it before we are talking about a frigging footpath that is safe to use with your kids in buggies on bikes to push your aged parents in wheelchairs on to have any disable member of your family on - Why wouldn't people use it, do we need a frigging survey and research to find out if people will use a frigging footpath!!!! Sorry but I think stating the ble*ding obvious does not need to be researched.

I agree with you about a feasibility study and if you read what I said about Sligo coco I cannot for the like of me reason why they did not ask for seed funding to look at it from Minister Kellys department, I can only hope that the councils are waking up to the public debate about this issue and now will ask for a feasibility study. Maybe I have been wrong all the time and no-one will use the frigging greenway. I can't answer why a feasibility study has not been done - it has been asked for and I don't know yet if there are plans to carry one out. Please address that question to the local and national representatives and necessary bodies!!!!!

Its not my fault a feasibility study hasn't been done is what I am saying!!!!
:mad::D:confused::eek: and every other emotion possible.

But the more relevant question is Why would they say they didnt want it? There is absolutely no reason. It wont cost them anything. So if they are asked, they of course they would say yes. It is exactly the same as people saying they would like a railway and then not using it. EXACTLY the same. If I was asked "Would you like some local amenity built in my area?" I would say "Yes, of course". Absolutely does not mean I would ever use it. I dont see how anybody in Swinford would actually say "No, we dont want it"

You may argue that greenway costs less than railway. But it still costs! And I would rather see that the money is not wasted on something that perhaps isnt needed or won't be used. Would the benefits derived from a greenway actually outweigh a cost of 2-4 million???? I lived near a section of the WRC north of Claremorris and I would be somewhat sceptical of people using a greenway there if it opened. Then again, I used to walk my dogs along a section of it so I would probably be one of the few to use it!

To be honest, I see many of the same flaws in people advocating a greenway as the people who are advocating a railway. I would love to be convinced that a greenway is the best option. But I just dont really see the hard evidence of it being so.

Grandeeod

InchicoreDude wrote: »

But the more relevant question is Why would they say they didnt want it? There is absolutely no reason. It wont cost them anything. So if they are asked, they of course they would say yes. It is exactly the same as people saying they would like a railway and then not using it. EXACTLY the same. If I was asked "Would you like some local amenity built in my area?" I would say "Yes, of course". Absolutely does not mean I would ever use it. I dont see how anybody in Swinford would actually say "No, we dont want it"

You may argue that greenway costs less than railway. But it still costs! And I would rather see that the money is not wasted on something that perhaps isnt needed or won't be used. Would the benefits derived from a greenway actually outweigh a cost of 2-4 million???? I lived near a section of the WRC north of Claremorris and I would be somewhat sceptical of people using a greenway there if it opened. Then again, I used to walk my dogs along a section of it so I would probably be one of the few to use it!

To be honest, I see many of the same flaws in people advocating a greenway as the people who are advocating a railway. I would love to be convinced that a greenway is the best option. But I just dont really see the hard evidence of it being so.

Well let the track rot in the ground so as locals build gardens, driveways and whatever else over it, all in a blissful state of mind that represents an attitude of complete disinterest one way or the other. The key point (Greenway or not) is that the alignment as a railway, is worthless now and in the future, no matter what way you look at it. This is the bit that WOT do not get.

Can somebody please send the media down there to fully exploit that claremorris - Colooney is more dead as a piece of infrastructure than a 50 year old corpse.