Islamic school to be founded in Dublin

DaniAlKhal

Malty_T wrote: »

Fixed


I respect you too much to respect to your respect your ridiculous beliefs.:)

I'm confused...:rolleyes:

Turtwig

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

I'm confused...:rolleyes:

Sam Vimes

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

I'm confused...:rolleyes:

What it means is that people deserve respect but ideas don't. Ideas should never be protected from scrutiny through appeals to respect and if they can't stand up to scrutiny they should be thrown out

DaniAlKhal

Sam Vimes wrote: »

What it means is that people deserve respect but ideas don't. Ideas should never be protected from scrutiny through appeals to respect and if they can't stand up to scrutiny they should be thrown out

Ahhh I get it now thanks

pts

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

All beliefs should be respected equally...?

What if I believe that you are a child rapist? Should that be respected? What happens if I tell everyone what I believe and some people believe me?

It is an extreme example, but what I'm getting at is that not all beliefs are created equal.

Turtwig

Sam Vimes wrote: »

What it means is that people deserve respect but ideas don't. Ideas should never be protected from scrutiny through appeals to respect and if they can't stand up to scrutiny they should be thrown out

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Ahhh I get it now thanks

Well in fairness my blundering typing didn't help..

liamw

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

All beliefs should be respected equally...?

You're opening up a can of worms here.
I believe that the Flying Spagetti Monster created the universe and gave us our morals. How can you respect that?

DaniAlKhal

Malty_T wrote: »

Well in fairness my blundering typing didn't help..

That's ok! Sometimes you'd swear I was using my fists to type when you read my sentences lol

Turtwig

liamw wrote: »

You're opening up a can of worms here.
I believe that the Flying Spagetti Monster created the universe and gave us our morals. How can you respect that?

For the last time, morals exist independently of the FSM!:mad:

DaniAlKhal

Respect peoples beliefs in so far as you tolerate them...pretty reasonable don't you think? And belief in something and belief of something are different....a political/religious/cultural belief is different to an accusatory belief or a belief that someone did something..?

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

Yes, ok, we get that. But you need to do some joined up thinking here. I understand that he gave us the book and that it tells us how to live our life. Let’s leave aside the fact that it is a very poorly written book

Have you read the Qur'an in order to come to this conclusion?

MrPudding wrote: »

and assume it give us the way to live our lives. We still can’t get away form the fact that we are imperfect being that are prone to breaking the rules in this book. He created us this way when he knew what would happen. He could easily have created us perfectly so it would not be a problem.

Why does a perfect, all seeing, all knowing being of infinite goodness and kindness need people to spend a tiny span of time on earth to decide where they spend eternity? Does anyone know what percentage of eternity a typical human lifespan is? When you think about the suffering on this planet, must of which is suffered by people that have never even heard of your god, how does that seem right?

Simply we don't know, perhaps we are not capable of understanding this as our minds have limitations.

MrPudding wrote: »

Really? How so? So for crime I take in countries where there is a death penalty there are no capital crimes committed? I would guess then that in countries where you get your hand cut off for stealing there is no theft? What about countries where women get stoned to death for adultery? I guess everyone is faithful?

MrP

Take the Islamic (and Christian) law which forbids interest. If this was in place in Ireland we would all own our homes outright and greedy bankers would not be in a position where they can steal so much wealth from a country and get away scott free.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't see the point in debating this. I have yet to see anyone change their view as a result of a debate on an internet forum and I don't think this thread is going to break that cycle.

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

Take the Islamic (and Christian) law which forbids interest. If this was in place in Ireland we would all own our homes outright and greedy bankers would not be in a position where they can steal so much wealth from a country and get away scott free.

If we enforced the law that forbade interest then there would be no motivation for the bank to lend me the money to buy my house so I'd be able to afford it at roughly age 70. Interest was not the problem, reckless lending was

CerebralCortex

irishconvert wrote: »

...Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't see the point in debating this. I have yet to see anyone change their view as a result of a debate on an internet forum and I don't think this thread is going to break that cycle.

Really I wasn't an atheist when I first came in here (well I kind of was except I didn't know it) and the fine arguments posed here brought me to it.

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

Have you read the Qur'an in order to come to this conclusion?

Can you not see that I don’t need to? If a guide to how we should live our lives is so ambiguous that it can be interpreted in different ways by different people, then that book if flawed. Quite simple really. I understand that you believe that the book is perfect and the other people are interpreting it wrong, but they are also saying the book is perfect and you are interpreting it wrong. The views are so diametrically opposed that one of you must be wrong. If the book was perfect then, no matter how flawed the reader was it would not be possible to misinterpret it.

irishconvert wrote: »

Simply we don't know, perhaps we are not capable of understanding this as our minds have limitations.

Ah, standard believer excuse then. It makes no sense, so it is beyond our puny intellect. Perhaps he moves in mysterious ways?

irishconvert wrote: »

Take the Islamic (and Christian) law which forbids interest. If this was in place in Ireland we would all own our homes outright and greedy bankers would not be in a position where they can steal so much wealth from a country and get away scott free.

Yes, that worked really well in Dubai. I believe Dubai World had several Islamic bonds maturing yesterday, which they would have defaulted on had another country not bailed them out with a $10billion (presumable interest free) loan.

irishconvert wrote: »

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't see the point in debating this. I have yet to see anyone change their view as a result of a debate on an internet forum and I don't think this thread is going to break that cycle.

I was not trying to change your mind, I was simply looking for an answer. I got the one I was expecting, “he move in mysterious ways…”

MrP

Sam Vimes

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Really I wasn't an atheist when I first came in here (well I kind of was except I didn't know it) and the fine arguments posed here brought me to it.

And in a way the point is not to get someone to announce that their mind has been changed, that's at best extremely rare. The best you can realistically hope for is that the person gets more and more desperate in their attempts to try to defend something that they are not equipped to defend because it has little or no rational basis and is littered with inconsistencies, and eventually either declares that they're not participating anymore because (insert excuse here) or starts to attack you personally because they can't defend their position, eg saying that you're being disrespectful. That may well be but it doesn't make me wrong.

And if you're really lucky one of the lurkers spots all of the above and isn't taken in by the ad hominems.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't see the point in debating this. I have yet to see anyone change their view as a result of a debate on an internet forum and I don't think this thread is going to break that cycle.

So whats the point of this forum then? Or your forum? Or any for that matter? Is it only on the internet where you are so closed minded or do you think that debate in all walks of life are pointless? Whats your alternative then when people come together with contrary opinions? What should they do to avoid problems?

liamw

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Respect peoples beliefs in so far as you tolerate them...pretty reasonable don't you think? And belief in something and belief of something are different....a political/religious/cultural belief is different to an accusatory belief or a belief that someone did something..?

I don't care what your belief is. I won't respect it if it is ridiculous. I would clearly place your religious beliefs into that bucket, not only do they sound ridiculous, they are completely unfounded and have zero evidence to support them. Until you present an argument that shows why your beliefs are not ridiculous, then I will continue to not respect those beliefs of yours.

Mark Hamill

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

Respect peoples beliefs in so far as you tolerate them...pretty reasonable don't you think?

Respect people and tolerate the fact that they have their own beliefs and that their beliefs may be different to yours. I dont see why you should go any further than that without knowing the beliefs.

DaniAlKhal wrote: »

And belief in something and belief of something are different....a political/religious/cultural belief is different to an accusatory belief or a belief that someone did something..?

Semantics really. A belief in something can be expressed as a belief of something. A belief of gods existence is the same as believing in god.

irishconvert

MrPudding wrote: »

Can you not see that I don’t need to? If a guide to how we should live our lives is so ambiguous that it can be interpreted in different ways by different people, then that book if flawed.

I find it quite unbelieveable that you would dismiss a book as rubbish without reading it yourself.

MrPudding wrote: »

Quite simple really. I understand that you believe that the book is perfect and the other people are interpreting it wrong, but they are also saying the book is perfect and you are interpreting it wrong. The views are so diametrically opposed that one of you must be wrong. If the book was perfect then, no matter how flawed the reader was it would not be possible to misinterpret it.

I am not sure if you are blaming the Qur'an, the people who follow/interpret it, or both.

biko

Out of all the possible Islamic flavours the Saudi fundamentalists are the worst. Imo.
We're close to a secular society, why would we want other religions destroying our youth?

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So whats the point of this forum then? Or your forum? Or any for that matter? Is it only on the internet where you are so closed minded or do you think that debate in all walks of life are pointless? Whats your alternative then when people come together with contrary opinions? What should they do to avoid problems?

As I said I think debates in interet forums are pointless as the two opposing sides of the debate never seem to conceed anything.

I think that people with contrary opinions should be able to accept the fact they have different beliefs and should respect one another (as long as their beliefs are not harmful to the other). To be honest I find some of the athiests on this forum are quite disrespectful as they attempt to make religious people feel stupid by using references to flying spagetti monsters and the link instead of trying to make an intelligent argument.

irishconvert

Magnus wrote: »

Out of all the possible Islamic flavours the Saudi are by far the worst.

I agree. The Saudi dictatorship (backed by the west BTW) are the most corrupt. Having spent some time there I can tell you the citizens feel the same way.

Magnus wrote: »

We're close to a secular society, why would we want other religions destroying our youth?

Hmmm

MrPudding

irishconvert wrote: »

I find it quite unbelieveable that you would dismiss a book as rubbish without reading it yourself.

I find it unbelievable that you can’t understand that I don’t need to read it. I simply need to look people that have read it.

This is not hard to understand, I will try again… with bullet points!

• The Qur’an is a guide to how we should live our lives.
• It was inspired by a perfect being so that we would know how to live our lives, according to him.
• Unfortunately it was not written in a way that can be simply followed, it has to be interpreted.
• People interpret it in different ways, wildly different in fact. Some people think the book tells them it is OK to blow up kids and some think it isn’t.

I write technical manual and guides as part of my job. If I wrote a manual with an ambiguity of the scale of it is ok to murder kids / it is not ok to murder kids, I think I would probably get sacked.

In short, Qur’an = FAIL

irishconvert wrote: »

I am not sure if you are blaming the Qur'an, the people who follow/interpret it, or both.

I am blaming the book, you are blaming the followers, well at least the ones that don’t read it the way you do.

MrP

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

As I said I think debates in interet forums are pointless as the two opposing sides of the debate never seem to conceed anything.

Which doesn't at all answer my question of whats the point of any forum if you believe the debates are pointless? Why are you a mod if you think your forum is pointless?

irishconvert wrote: »

I think that people with contrary opinions should be able to accept the fact they have different beliefs and should respect one another (as long as their beliefs are not harmful to the other).

All contrary beliefs ultimately lead to some kind of harm. So what do we do about it if debate is pointless? Just try to be the one doing the harm as opposed to the one being harmed?

irishconvert wrote: »

To be honest I find some of the athiests on this forum are quite disrespectful as they attempt to make religious people feel stupid by using references to flying spagetti monsters and the link instead of trying to make an intelligent argument.

Funny, the way I see it, its usually a case of theists feeling stupid when an intelligent point is put to them by an atheist, so they then use the disrespect card in order to get out of dealing with the piont that makes them feel stupid.

Mark Hamill

MrPudding wrote: »

irishconvert wrote:

I am not sure if you are blaming the Qur'an, the people who follow/interpret it, or both.

I am blaming the book, you are blaming the followers, well at least the ones that don’t read it the way you do.
MrP

I'm blaming the guy who wrote it.

liamw

irishconvert wrote: »

To be honest I find some of the athiests on this forum are quite disrespectful as they attempt to make religious people feel stupid by using references to flying spagetti monsters and the link instead of trying to make an intelligent argument.

If it's such a stupid argument then you can easily refute it right?

Sam Vimes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Funny, the way I see it, its usually a case of theists feeling stupid when an intelligent point is put to them by an atheist, so they then use the disrespect card in order to get out of dealing with the piont that makes them feel stupid.

Indeed. If they had a response for it there'd be no need to feel stupid. Unfortunately the overwhelming response when a believer is made feel stupid is to blame the atheist* and accuse them of this and that (in this case lack of respect) instead of looking inwards and asking themselves if feel stupid because what they just said is in fact stupid


*In this case. This phenomenon doesn't just apply to religious belief

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Which doesn't at all answer my question of whats the point of any forum if you believe the debates are pointless? Why are you a mod if you think your forum is pointless?

I think debates are good in that it gives onlookers an insite into both sides of the argument and can help convince someone to go one way or the other. However I did not come on here to try to convert people to Islam, or to defend my beliefs. That's why I consider this debate pointless as I am not going to suddenly going to say "hey this Islam stuff is all rubbish, think I'll become an athiest". I dont' expect you, Mr P or any other athiests to have a sudden change of view either. So why waste our times build and knocking egos?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

All contrary beliefs ultimately lead to some kind of harm. So what do we do about it if debate is pointless? Just try to be the one doing the harm as opposed to the one being harmed?

What harm is my belief causing you?
Do do you want to live in a world where everyone shares the same beliefs, no variety or variation?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Funny, the way I see it, its usually a case of theists feeling stupid when an intelligent point is put to them by an atheist, so they then use the disrespect card in order to get out of dealing with the piont that makes them feel stupid.

I don't accept your points, I lose respect for you when you can't put an intelligent argument forward and resort to "flying spagetti monster".

Sam Vimes

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't accept your points, I lose respect for you when you can't put an intelligent argument forward and resort to "flying spagetti monster".

Then please tell me what the difference is between "you can't prove god doesn't exist" and "you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist".

you saying you've lost respect for me doesn't make the argument invalid. It's just an ad hominem attack

Permabear

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