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Islamic school to be founded in Dublin
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I presume to can see how ridiculous this looks from the outside? You believe in this perfect merciful god that created an imperfect creature and as a result of the imperfection in his creation your god have to punish the creature he created? PLease tell me, just how does that make any sense?
MrP
Do you really think there is any point in us having this discussion? I am not going to convince you of what I believe and you are not going to convince me of what you believe. Best to both not waste our time with an endless debate.0 -
irishconvert wrote: »Do you really think there is any point in us having this discussion? I am not going to convince you of what I believe and you are not going to convince me of what you believe. Best to both not waste our time with an endless debate.
Why the negative attitude? Surely you care about the souls of other human beings?0 -
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I do actually. I was hoping you could explain how your perfect god could fcuk up so badly and still be perfect. If you can't that's ok, perfectly understandable. I appreciate that it cannot be explained and the preferred method to handle it is to gloss it over and ignore.irishconvert wrote: »Do you really think there is any point in us having this discussion? I am not going to convince you of what I believe and you are not going to convince me of what you believe. Best to both not waste our time with an endless debate.
MrP0 -
Well I don't think God fcuked up so perhaps you can tell me where you think the fcuk up is.I do actually. I was hoping you could explain how your perfect god could fcuk up so badly and still be perfect. If you can't that's ok, perfectly understandable. I appreciate that it cannot be explained and the preferred method to handle it is to gloss it over and ignore.
MrP0 -
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If you have spent any time on this forum I am sure you will have seen this, it pops up from time to time.irishconvert wrote: »Well I don't think God fcuked up so perhaps you can tell me where you think the fcuk up is.
So, god is perfect, all seeing, all powerful and all knowing. Now, not sure about your god, but the Christian god is also infinitely good and kind.
This kind of gives me a problem. So, depending on whichever of you is correct, your god or one of the other ones created man at some point in the past, what, maybe 10000 years ago? Now, at the time when he created man, in fact probably before it given that he is all knowing and all powerful, he knew that it was all going to go wrong. He knew that man would fall, he knew the horrors and atrocities that people would commit. He knew that because of the imperfect book he caused to be written that murderers with vests made of explosives and ball bearings would get onto buses full of innocent kids (just to clarify, I believe they are innocent, as do most decent people, but I do understand that the people that blow the children up do not believe this to be the case. Wow, you gotta love that book.) and blow themselves up. He knew all of this, and yet he did nothing.
So, how could you possibly call a being that supposedly knows everything and is all powerful, yet allows hundreds of thousands of innocent people to be killed, apparently in his name?
I know you believe it has nothing to do with your god, after all, he is only responsible for the good stuff, but you have to see the difficulty here. If you crate something with the full and complete knowledge that it is going to go wrong and there will be deaths, millions of them, then you are responsible for those deaths.
MrP0 -
Ok, my first problem is that you have ore or less admitted here that you don't know a whole lot about Islam. How can you critise something you have no or little knowledge of.If you have spent any time on this forum I am sure you will have seen this, it pops up from time to time.
So, god is perfect, all seeing, all powerful and all knowing. Now, not sure about your god, but the Christian god is also infinitely good and kind.
Ok, just to be very clear, the Qur'an does not allow suicide bombings. In fact it is very clear that it is a major sin to 1) commit suicide and 2) kill innocent people, especially children and women. The Qur'an is a perfect book, it is the word of God and has not been altered whatsoever since it was first revealed to Prophet Muhammed 1400 years ago.Many people try to twist the meaning of the verses in the Qur'an and take verses out of context to try to justify their own aims & actions.This kind of gives me a problem. So, depending on whichever of you is correct, your god or one of the other ones created man at some point in the past, what, maybe 10000 years ago? Now, at the time when he created man, in fact probably before it given that he is all knowing and all powerful, he knew that it was all going to go wrong. He knew that man would fall, he knew the horrors and atrocities that people would commit. He knew that because of the imperfect book he caused to be written that murderers with vests made of explosives and ball bearings would get onto buses full of innocent kids (just to clarify, I believe they are innocent, as do most decent people, but I do understand that the people that blow the children up do not believe this to be the case. Wow, you gotta love that book.) and blow themselves up. He knew all of this, and yet he did nothing.
Now if anyone takes it upon themselves to go and blow a load of innocent people up they are clearly going against the laws of God and and will have to answer to God for what they have done.So, how could you possibly call a being that supposedly knows everything and is all powerful, yet allows hundreds of thousands of innocent people to be killed, apparently in his name?
I know you believe it has nothing to do with your god, after all, he is only responsible for the good stuff, but you have to see the difficulty here. If you crate something with the full and complete knowledge that it is going to go wrong and there will be deaths, millions of them, then you are responsible for those deaths.
MrP
We believe that God put us on this earth, gave us a perfect rule book to follow (the Qur'an) and that this life is a test for us. We are all judged on how we live this life and how closely we follow those rules. Those who are successful will be rewarded in the next world.
What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the lawmakers of the land because some people choose to break the laws, even if the laws are perfect (lets assume they are). How can you blame the person who made the law because some choose to break them?0 -
I know enough about it. Perfect god, perfect book, imperfect man. Got it.irishconvert wrote: »Ok, my first problem is that you have ore or less admitted here that you don't know a whole lot about Islam. How can you critise something you have no or little knowledge of.
Um, not according to the people that think it does allow them…irishconvert wrote: »Ok, just to be very clear, the Qur'an does not allow suicide bombings.
But they would argue that it is in fact you who are reading it wrong. I am sure if you listed all the reasons why they are wrong and they listed all the reasons why you were wrong the lists would be remarkably similar.irishconvert wrote: »In fact it is very clear that it is a major sin to 1) commit suicide and 2) kill innocent people, especially children and women. The Qur'an is a perfect book, it is the word of God and has not been altered whatsoever since it was first revealed to Prophet Muhammed 1400 years ago.Many people try to twist the meaning of the verses in the Qur'an and take verses out of context to try to justify their own aims & actions.
Obviously that is not what they believe. And obviously the book they, and indeed you, follow is ambiguous enough to allow these diametrically opposed views both to appear correct to the holders.irishconvert wrote: »Now if anyone takes it upon themselves to go and blow a load of innocent people up they are clearly going against the laws of God and and will have to answer to God for what they have done.
But the people that are blowing kids up believe that they are following the perfect word. Why does god allow these people to exist? So god creates man flawed, or at least allows him to become flawed, knowing that because of this he will sin, and then he punishes him for that sin? How does that make sense?irishconvert wrote: »We believe that God put us on this earth, gave us a perfect rule book to follow (the Qur'an) and that this life is a test for us. We are all judged on how we live this life and how closely we follow those rules. Those who are successful will be rewarded in the next world.
Rubbish. The law makers did not create man. Further, they did not create man already holding the knowledge that he would sin, do nothing about this and then punish him for sinning. God has told us what the sins are, similar to law makers making laws, but unlike the law makers, god also make the sinners. And he made them wit the full knowledge of what they would do.irishconvert wrote: »What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the lawmakers of the land because some people choose to break the laws, even if the laws are perfect (lets assume they are). How can you blame the person who made the law because some choose to break them?
I am sure your god would not appreciate being compared to mere human lawmakers, even in a very bad analogy.
MrP0 -
God has told us what the sins are, similar to law makers making laws, but unlike the law makers, god also make the sinners. And he made them wit the full knowledge of what they would do.
It's kind of like a murderer who says at his parole hearing that he's going to kill again as soon as he's released and is put back out on the streets within the hour. In that case the parole board bears the full responsibility for the killing as far as I'm concerned.0 -
I know enough about it. Perfect god, perfect book, imperfect man. Got it.
Um, not according to the people that think it does allow them…
But they would argue that it is in fact you who are reading it wrong. I am sure if you listed all the reasons why they are wrong and they listed all the reasons why you were wrong the lists would be remarkably similar.
Obviously that is not what they believe. And obviously the book they, and indeed you, follow is ambiguous enough to allow these diametrically opposed views both to appear correct to the holders.
But the people that are blowing kids up believe that they are following the perfect word. Why does god allow these people to exist? So god creates man flawed, or at least allows him to become flawed, knowing that because of this he will sin, and then he punishes him for that sin? How does that make sense?
Rubbish. The law makers did not create man. Further, they did not create man already holding the knowledge that he would sin, do nothing about this and then punish him for sinning. God has told us what the sins are, similar to law makers making laws, but unlike the law makers, god also make the sinners. And he made them wit the full knowledge of what they would do.
I am sure your god would not appreciate being compared to mere human lawmakers, even in a very bad analogy.
MrP
Ok, so what is your aim here, is it to try to convince me that God does not exist and I am foolish to believe this? I don't get this athiest trait in that many of you want to convince anyone who believes in a religion that it is rubbish, they are stupid for believing in it. Do you accept that religion brings out a lot of good in people also, even if we assume there is no God and the Bible/Qur'an/Torah are all made up by man. Why would you want to change these people who do good becuse they fear/love their God?
Do you believe that all of the ills of the world are caused by religion? Do you think if there was no religion this world would be a much happier peaceful place?0 -
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It's kind of like a murderer who says at his parole hearing that he's going to kill again as soon as he's released and is put back out on the streets within the hour. In that case the parole board bears the full responsibility for the killing as far as I'm concerned.
If Islamic law was applied there would be no parole hearing, he would be never put back on the streets again, his first murder would be his last.;)0 -
irishconvert wrote: »If Islamic law was applied there would be no parole hearing, he would be never put back on the streets again, his first murder would be his last.;)
And I thank the flying spaghetti monster every day that we don't have Islamic law here. But that does not change the fact that god puts people out on the streets with full knowledge of every atrocity they will ever commit. And you don't find that in any way a bad thing to do?0 -
irishconvert wrote: »Well I believe that God is perfect, but man is far from perfect and that is where the problem lies.
If god is perfect then his perfection should account for the imperfection in the creatures he purposely created imperfect, ie: it shouldn't matter if we are imperfect (in our interpretations) as god is so perfect that his message would be impossible to misinterpret.0 -
irishconvert wrote: »The Qur'an is a perfect book, it is the word of God and has not been altered whatsoever since it was first revealed to Prophet Muhammed 1400 years ago.Many people try to twist the meaning of the verses in the Qur'an and take verses out of context to try to justify their own aims & actions.
If the Qur'an was a perfect book, then its verses would be impossible to twist and misinterpret, as they would be perfectly clear and understanable.irishconvert wrote: »Now if anyone takes it upon themselves to go and blow a load of innocent people up they are clearly going against the laws of God and and will have to answer to God for what they have done.
Why does god have to wait for them to do that to get them to answer for it? Seeing as he knows what they will do, couldn't he stop them from doing it and get them to answer for it before hurting innocent people?irishconvert wrote: »We believe that God put us on this earth, gave us a perfect rule book to follow (the Qur'an) and that this life is a test for us. We are all judged on how we live this life and how closely we follow those rules. Those who are successful will be rewarded in the next world.
And what about the ones who never see this rule book? The people in the past who never encountered the Qur'an because it didn't reach their shores, the people today who, through no fault of their own, have had their minds "poisoned" by anti-islamic media and cultures? It seems like all the people in Islamic countries get anfair boost in this test, almost like god had decided who he wanted to believe in him and pass his test before it even started.irishconvert wrote: »What you are saying is equivalent to blaming the lawmakers of the land because some people choose to break the laws, even if the laws are perfect (lets assume they are). How can you blame the person who made the law because some choose to break them?
Because that person is god, and god is omnipowerful, omnipresent and omniscient.0 -
No. You asked me what I thought the problem was and I told you. I am also interested in how you reconcile the problem I have stated. I expect you just ignore it, but I would still eb interested in your analysis.irishconvert wrote: »Ok, so what is your aim here, is it to try to convince me that God does not exist and I am foolish to believe this?
I do think it is rubbish, but I think stupidity is a bit strong. I could not care less whether or not I convince you or any other believer.irishconvert wrote: »I don't get this athiest trait in that many of you want to convince anyone who believes in a religion that it is rubbish, they are stupid for believing in it.
I can accept that. I would prefer if people could find it within themselves to do good though… A bit like the loser that turns his life around after finding <INSERT CHOSEN DEITY HERE>, I would prefer if they realised they did all the work themselves.irishconvert wrote: »Do you accept that religion brings out a lot of good in people also, even if we assume there is no God and the Bible/Qur'an/Torah are all made up by man. Why would you want to change these people who do good becuse they fear/love their God?
Very hard question to answer. If god exists then I believe he is responsible for all the ills of the world. He would be the designer and the creator, designing and creating with the full knowledge of what would happen. He would be guilty.irishconvert wrote: »Do you believe that all of the ills of the world are caused by religion? Do you think if there was no religion this world would be a much happier peaceful place?
That is nothing to be proud of.irishconvert wrote: »If Islamic law was applied there would be no parole hearing, he would be never put back on the streets again, his first murder would be his last.;)
MrP0 -
Even then it is not quite the same. They did not know with the certainty that god did what would happen.It's kind of like a murderer who says at his parole hearing that he's going to kill again as soon as he's released and is put back out on the streets within the hour. In that case the parole board bears the full responsibility for the killing as far as I'm concerned.
MrP0 -
irishconvert wrote: »Ok, so what is your aim here, is it to try to convince me that God does not exist and I am foolish to believe this? I don't get this athiest trait in that many of you want to convince anyone who believes in a religion that it is rubbish, they are stupid for believing in it. Do you accept that religion brings out a lot of good in people also, even if we assume there is no God and the Bible/Qur'an/Torah are all made up by man. Why would you want to change these people who do good becuse they fear/love their God?
Do you believe that all of the ills of the world are caused by religion? Do you think if there was no religion this world would be a much happier peaceful place?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg0 -
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irishconvert wrote: »Ok, so what is your aim here, is it to try to convince me that God does not exist and I am foolish to believe this? I don't get this athiest trait in that many of you want to convince anyone who believes in a religion that it is rubbish, they are stupid for believing in it.
What is this muslim trait that when you see a thread about islam in the A&A forum that you must come and try to defend your belief? :rolleyes: Whya re you avoiding the questions being put to you? What are you afraid of?irishconvert wrote: »Do you accept that religion brings out a lot of good in people also, even if we assume there is no God and the Bible/Qur'an/Torah are all made up by man. Why would you want to change these people who do good becuse they fear/love their God?
Because there are people who take this made up story about god and use it to justify flying planes into buildings, dropping bombs on cities and genocide. Because people should do good because it is good to do good, not because they are afraid of eternal punishment.irishconvert wrote: »Do you believe that all of the ills of the world are caused by religion? Do you think if there was no religion this world would be a much happier peaceful place?
Who knows? People are stupid, scared, gullible and greedy enough to invent religion, so they will most likely be stupid, scared, gullible or greedy enough to invent some other pointless lies. But we do not say "dont cure cancer because there will still be other diseases".0 -
And I thank the flying spaghetti monster every day that we don't have Islamic law here. But that does not change the fact that god puts people out on the streets with full knowledge of every atrocity they will ever commit. And you don't find that in any way a bad thing to do?
He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.
If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.
By the way, using terms like "flying spaghetti monster" just weakens your points and loses you respectability.0 -
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Not bothered by it. How exactly is it going to affect the lives of those who don't attend? Unless of course we are paying for it.0
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irishconvert wrote: »He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.
He gives us a book!!!! That's the best your God can do for humanity. He needs to learn another trick or twoirishconvert wrote: »If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.
We are slowly getting rid of one form of dogmatism. We don't need another to replace it with thanks.irishconvert wrote: »By the way, using terms like "flying spaghetti monster" just weakens your points and loses you respectability.
Not on this forum.0 -
God is eternal and timeless. He does not leave us to our own devices, he knows in advance every single thing that we will do. Every single bad thing that has ever happened, happened because god explicitly allowed it to happen.irishconvert wrote: »He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.
and as has been mentioned, he left us a rule book that can be interpreted a thousand different ways, all of which appear consistent to the followers. You can say they're wrong but they can say you're wrong and neither of you can prove what god intended. Hardly perfect.
Honestly, I'd rather the economy was completely destroyed than have Islamic law in this country. Christian influenced law is bad enough.irishconvert wrote: »If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.irishconvert wrote: »By the way, using terms like "flying spaghetti monster" just weakens your points and loses you respectability.
The flying spaghetti monster is a response to the ridiculous religious argument "you can't prove god doesn't exist". We respond with "you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist but that's not a reason to believe in him". What loses respectability is the fact that religious people keep trotting out the same old fallacy over and over again and instead of acknowledging that the flying spaghetti monster shows how ridiculous it is, they resort to ad hominem attacks and accuse us of disrespecting them.0 -
I think I answered all the questions I was asked. Do you get many Muslims in here? I was interested in the thread about the Saudi school, which was on the front page, so I came in to have a read and got dragged into it. Do you object to Muslims posting in here?[/QUOTE]Mark Hamill wrote: »
What is this muslim trait that when you see a thread about islam in the A&A forum that you must come and try to defend your belief? :rolleyes: Whya re you avoiding the questions being put to you? What are you afraid of?
Come on, you don't really think the 9/11 attacks were about religion do you?Mark Hamill wrote: »Because there are people who take this made up story about god and use it to justify flying planes into buildings, dropping bombs on cities and genocide. Because people should do good because it is good to do good, not because they are afraid of eternal punishment.
If you don't know, why are you intent on pushing your idea on to people who are believers? Why not live and let live, you have your beliefs and we have ours, as long as we are not harming one another?Mark Hamill wrote: »Who knows? People are stupid, scared, gullible and greedy enough to invent religion, so they will most likely be stupid, scared, gullible or greedy enough to invent some other pointless lies. But we do not say "dont cure cancer because there will still be other diseases".0 -
irishconvert wrote: »He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.
And how exactly does an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipowerful being leave us to our devices?irishconvert wrote: »If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.
Yeah, we would have the problems all the Islamic countries have, like the sexism and racism.irishconvert wrote: »By the way, using terms like "flying spaghetti monster" just weakens your points and loses you respectability.
He doesn't lose any respect from people who aren't looking for reasons to not respect him.0 -
Yes, ok, we get that. But you need to do some joined up thinking here. I understand that he gave us the book and that it tells us how to live our life. Let’s leave aside the fact that it is a very poorly written book and assume it give us the way to live our lives. We still can’t get away form the fact that we are imperfect being that are prone to breaking the rules in this book. He created us this way when he knew what would happen. He could easily have created us perfectly so it would not be a problem.irishconvert wrote: »He gives us a book which tells us how to live our lives, leaves us to our own devices and judges us by how we follow these rules, and rewards or punishes us accordingly.
Why does a perfect, all seeing, all knowing being of infinite goodness and kindness need people to spend a tiny span of time on earth to decide where they spend eternity? Does anyone know what percentage of eternity a typical human lifespan is? When you think about the suffering on this planet, must of which is suffered by people that have never even heard of your god, how does that seem right?
Really? How so? So for crime I take in countries where there is a death penalty there are no capital crimes committed? I would guess then that in countries where you get your hand cut off for stealing there is no theft? What about countries where women get stoned to death for adultery? I guess everyone is faithful?irishconvert wrote: »If we even had elements of Islamic law here we would not have half the problems with the economy that we do now.
MrP0 -
irishconvert wrote: »If you don't know, why are you intent on pushing your idea on to people who are believers? Why not live and let live, you have your beliefs and we have ours, as long as we are not harming one another?
Because with religion things don't have to be logically justified. It's enough to say that it's god's will and people can be made to do horrendous things. As the old saying goes: good people will tend to do good things and bad people will tend to do bad things but for good people to do bad things you need religion0 -
irishconvert wrote: »I think I answered all the questions I was asked. Do you get many Muslims in here? I was interested in the thread about the Saudi school, which was on the front page, so I came in to have a read and got dragged into it. Do you object to Muslims posting in here?
I was parodying your own deflecting rhetoric about atheists always wanting to convince theists that religion is rubbish, I thought the italics and the rolleyes was enough to convey that, my mistake.
EDIT: ALso why would i object to muslims posting in here when I post in the Islam forum too?irishconvert wrote: »Come on, you don't really think the 9/11 attacks were about religion do you?
The 9/11 attacks, the current suicide bombings in the middle east, even Bushes original invasion of Iraq all use religion as shield for their true motives (power). That alone is reason enough to denounce and remove the lie of religion. The costs of the lie massively outweigh the benefits.irishconvert wrote: »If you don't know, why are you intent on pushing your idea on to people who are believers?
I already explained. We dont say "dont bother to cure cancer, as some other disease will just get us anyway". We can only improve ourselves one step at a time, and while they may not always be big steps, it still important to improve oursleves, to romove the lies we tell ourselves and learn to deal with reality as it really is.irishconvert wrote: »Why not live and let live, you have your beliefs and we have ours, as long as we are not harming one another?
Because they always harm one another. Contrary beliefs will always eventually come to ahead, you have it whenever people talk about abortion, same sex marriage, stem cell research. Religious beliefs get in the way of other religious beliefs and one has to give. I'm of the opinion that the correct belief is theone that should stay, regardless of the consequences.
Besides your beliefs harm me.0 -
Not really. I asked you to explain how you god could be perfect after the fcuk up he created. You asked what I thought the problem was. I told you and asked you how that worked.irishconvert wrote: »I think I answered all the questions I was asked.
Not too many. Glad you are here though.irishconvert wrote: »I think I answered all the questions I was asked. Do you get many Muslims in here?
I can’t speak for everyone, but I certainly welcome your input.irishconvert wrote: »I think I answered all the questions I was asked. Do you get many Muslims in here? I was interested in the thread about the Saudi school, which was on the front page, so I came in to have a read and got dragged into it. Do you object to Muslims posting in here?
MrP0 -
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