Irish-born British?

ejmaztec

McArmalite wrote: »

Will someone just give him a rattler or something to play with ?

I don't need a rattler to rattle people, and I can always play with you when I've got a spare moment.:p

brianthebard

DublinWriter wrote: »

Good points well made.

Now cue McArmalite...

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't need a rattler to rattle people, and I can always play with you when I've got a spare moment.:p

Less of this you two. All posters are entitled to equal respect and each post should be taken on its merits. Mod.

junder

I have noticed that it seems ok to be born in the UK and see yourself as irish but not ok to be born in the RoI and see yourself as British. I could be wrong but those born in the RoI who seem themselves as British can not even apply for a British passport within the RoI

T runner

junder wrote: »

I have noticed that it seems ok to be born in the UK and see yourself as irish but not ok to be born in the RoI and see yourself as British. I could be wrong but those born in the RoI who seem themselves as British can not even apply for a British passport within the RoI

Anyone seeking a British passport must apply to London, anyone seeking an Irish passport must apply to Dublin.

There is no political or geographical connection between ROI and GB bar through NI agreements, which does not make anyone in ROI British.

Anyone who is born in ROI and feeling British will usually have spent a large part of their lives living in Britain and would therefore be entitled to British citizenship.

For someone from UK wanting an Irish passport you have to seperate NI and GB as different rules apply.

I believe that anyone in NI can apply for either passport or both.

This allowance does not apply to the British.

Even though the proportion of people calling themselves Irish in NI has decreased in net value since the 30s-40s it is still 40% and this was recognised in the 98 agreement. NI being physically in Ireland with many cultural ties and all Irish organisations adds legitimacy to these claims of Irishness.

In short there are far greater ties between NI and ROI than between ROI and Britain.

T runner

diverdriver wrote: »

So you can be Irish and British, but you could never be identified as English or Scottish or Welsh simply by moving there.

You can only be an Irish Citizen and a British citizen in NI where you can apply for both passwords.

You cannot hold a UK passport and be categorised as Irish under that password.

Thats where a lot of the confusion stems from: The definition of "British".

Does it mean someone from Britain or does it mean someone from the UK?

There is no conflict with being British and Irish simultaneously.

To be exact someone who holds a British password is a British citizen (from UK) and someone who is from Britain is British.

This distinction may seem pedantic but in a historical forum it is important and is a distinction accepted by most historians including ARQ Stewart the most preeminant "unionist" historian.

So you can be British (English) and an Irish citizen. (maybe Daniel Day Lewis).
You can be Irish and be a British citizen (eg UK passport holders in NI) but
you CANNOT be both British and Irish.

You don't have to want to be British or feel British to be a British citizen It's just the way things are..

Unfortunately this is true. E.G Irish people in NI who did not want to be British citizens were given no choice thus the necessary allowance in the good friday agreement.

Many Irish born but living in Britain see themselves as Irish and British.

The same would apply to any similar situation (someone born in Denmark but spending most of their life in Sweden). It doesnt make Sweden more Danish or Denmark more Swedish.

Conversely even Loyalists recognise their Irishness. One loyalist, I remember. It could even be Gusty Spence, actually accepted an Irish passport because he needed to travel somewhere at short notice and his British one was delayed. Ian Paisley is on record admitting he is actually Irish. Most northerners will admit to that when pushed.

Because they are Irish. They are also British citizens--as distinct to British (from Britain).

There is a tendency among certain people in this country to try and deny our close connection to Britain.

Having a close connection to a country does not mean you are from that country. Again Sweden/Denmark Spain/Portugal US/Canada.

Equally they would deny the Irishness felt by many people born and brought up in Britain by Irish parents because of course their accent and culture is British and they never chose to 'come home' to this shambolic isle.

Again this could apply to Americans with Irish parents. It doesnt make Ireland American does it?

That's nonsense and demonstrates a very blinkered and immature attitude.
We do need to move on from that

I would regard people calling Ireland shambolic as ones with a dated attitude who need to move on. ROI is in the top 10 or 20 (in the positive sense-low is good) in world indexes even for corruption.

Simply calling something shambolic or "Irish" because thats how some little xenophobe in an English Public school 100 years ago saw it, is quite immature.

90%+ of countries around the world would gladly swap with ours. Move on.

CDfm

You can apply for a British passport from Ireland thru the British Embassy or if you are Irish living in the Uk you were able to apply for a British passport.

junder

T runner wrote: »

Anyone seeking a British passport must apply to London, anyone seeking an Irish passport must apply to Dublin.

There is no political or geographical connection between ROI and GB bar through NI agreements, which does not make anyone in ROI British.

Anyone who is born in ROI and feeling British will usually have spent a large part of their lives living in Britain and would therefore be entitled to British citizenship.

For someone from UK wanting an Irish passport you have to seperate NI and GB as different rules apply.

I believe that anyone in NI can apply for either passport or both.

This allowance does not apply to the British.

Even though the proportion of people calling themselves Irish in NI has decreased in net value since the 30s-40s it is still 40% and this was recognised in the 98 agreement. NI being physically in Ireland with many cultural ties and all Irish organisations adds legitimacy to these claims of Irishness.

In short there are far greater ties between NI and ROI than between ROI and Britain.

Maybe in your myopic world but i know personely of few people born and reared in the RoI and see them themselves as cultrally British and would like to be British citzens without having to move out of the country of thier birth.

CDfm

junder wrote: »

Maybe in your myopic world but i know personely of few people born and reared in the RoI and see them themselves as cultrally British and would like to be British citzens without having to move out of the country of thier birth.

I know a few too and people who have moved between both who would see themselves as both.

That said you do have anglophiles of all nationalities and I have met Indians and Americans who like all things British and some who have moved there simply to be "British".

Thats not including all those Irish women who were fans of Princess Diana -so if you are going to criticise people for their British affiliation I think you should start with the Diana fans or Man United supporters as they are more mainstream.

So I dont think its a particularily Irish thing but because we are bound by 800 years of history and politics it seems that way.

getz

there are over 600,000 people living in the ROI who have british passports,considering the population of the republic ,that a very high percentage.

toomevara

getz wrote: »

there are over 600,000 people living in the ROI who have british passports,considering the population of the republic ,that a very high percentage.

Interesting, source please?

CDfm

getz wrote: »

there are over 600,000 people living in the ROI who have british passports,considering the population of the republic ,that a very high percentage.

there are 6 million people living in britain entitled to irish passports again a high proportion and more than our total population

getz

CDfm wrote: »

there are 6 million people living in britain entitled to irish passports again a high proportion and more than our total population

that is very true, most children of irish grandparents living in the UK could claim a irish passport,last time i looked it up on websites the estimated number came up as six million plus,and there are may others living in the UK who had great grand parents who cannot claim passports [like me]who still like to believe their irishness

getz

toomevara wrote: »

Interesting, source please?

its in one of the articles on the website of,www.reform.org.

CDfm

so we could probably say that there are quite a few people i ireland that because of their heritage see themselves as being culturally british.
that being their ethnic background


shane mcgowan sees himself as being culturally irish even though born in england - but then that could be an excuse to drink

junder

CDfm wrote: »

I know a few too and people who have moved between both who would see themselves as both.

That said you do have anglophiles of all nationalities and I have met Indians and Americans who like all things British and some who have moved there simply to be "British".

Thats not including all those Irish women who were fans of Princess Diana -so if you are going to criticise people for their British affiliation I think you should start with the Diana fans or Man United supporters as they are more mainstream.

So I dont think its a particularily Irish thing but because we are bound by 800 years of history and politics it seems that way.

The ones i am talking about generly get refered to as 'west brits'. i know of one person in perticuler who was born in the RoI as were his family and are desended from unionists who were left on the wrong side of the border after partition. He see's himself as British cultrally but still sees the part of the RoI he was born as home. It was this fellow in perticuler who said he was not able to get a british passport.

getz

if anyone doubts the close links,just check out the british/irish surnames in both the UK and ireland

McArmalite

getz wrote: »

there are over 600,000 people living in the ROI who have british passports,considering the population of the republic ,that a very high percentage.

getz wrote: »

its in one of the articles on the website of,www.reform.org.

Reform.....Good old Getz, always good for a laugh

getz wrote: »

if anyone doubts the close links,just check out the british/irish surnames in both the UK and ireland

Most Irish and indeed Scottish and Welsh names were bastardised so as to sound more English, with the Mac and O etc been dropped. Ó Treasaigh became Tracey etc

getz

McArmalite wrote: »

Reform.....Good old Getz, always good for a laugh


Most Irish and indeed Scottish and Welsh names were bastardised so as to sound more English, with the Mac and O etc been dropped. Ó Treasaigh became Tracey etc

there are millions of people living in the UK with irish surnames as there are also thousands of people living in ireland with english surnames,and no i am not talking about the bastardised names,even the most stuped person around would know that after 800 years of british occupation inter -breeding was the norm,the english even tried to ban the troops from marrying the local girls ,without success,as far as the reform groups figures are concerned they came from the british embassy in dublin who said that over 70,000 people in ireland have asked them to renew their british passports, and stop throwing insults about,

McArmalite

diverdriver wrote: »

The usual debate with some of the gang who see everything with their green tinted glasses.

I wonder do say, the Czechs, look over their shoulder with a cringe trying to invent reasons and obscure theories why the are Austro/Hungarian ? I doubt it, very, very much.

Conversely even Loyalists recognise their Irishness. One loyalist, I remember. It could even be Gusty Spence, actually accepted an Irish passport because he needed to travel somewhere at short notice and his British one was delayed. Ian Paisley is on record admitting he is actually Irish. Most northerners will admit to that when pushed.

Talk about grasping at straws :rolleyes:. We're supposed to feel patronised that a loyalist was experiencing difficlties in getting a brit passport took an Irish one as he had no other choice :rolleyes: I suppose we should feel affection for Lenny Murphy of the Shankill Buthcers gang that he had a nationalist sounding name ?
Indeed I'm sure many IRA memebers obtained brit passports to enetr England and try and blow up the place. Should the people of England also feel patronised ?

So it's not so simple.

Early on in the thread someone mentioned the Duke of Wellington comment. 'Being born does not make on a horse'. In fact he never said that. It was said of him by no less a personage than Daniel O'Connell and that is on record.

There is a tendency among certain people in this country to try and deny our close connection to Britain. Whether we like it or not, it's there. More, their purism leads to to practically condemm those Irish who embrace their Britishness as some form of traitor. As if Terry Wogan and others who have made their lives in Britain or grew up there have betrayed their Irish identity. Not to mention those in Northern Ireland. Equally they would deny the Irishness felt by many people born and brought up in Britain by Irish parents because of course their accent and culture is British and they never chose to 'come home' to this shambolic isle.

The vast majority of Irish people rightfully resnet britain and it's gross mistreatment of this country reprehensible - apart from a few crackpots her majesty's uncle toms in movements like Reform etc. But then every society always has it's idiot factor.

Tell me, if britain is so populiar in Ireland, lets say if Obama was coming for a visit and Mrs Windsor was coming, who would have the vastly greater welcoming with people turning out ? Compare JFK's or Bill Clinton visit to Ireland to Prince Charles ( whom I joined the protest against the Para Prince Charles Windsor ). Should we conclude from that we are unoffically America's 51st state or something ?

That's nonsense and demonstrates a very blinkered and immature attitude.
We do need to move on from that.

I would have thought a mature attitude would be to be turning away from our old imperial occupier. The vast majority of Irish people don't want any clinging on to the silly, pompous expression of britishness. They abhor waht the british have done to us in this country and others around the world. War crimes they are carrying out to this day as America's bitch.

Ofcourse I do agree we need to move on. And drop all these blinkered staring over the shoulder at a state taht's increasingly looking like it's on the way to breaking up in the long term.

WE are not british, we never wanted them to occupy us, we never will. FFS, we're not even in the 2nd rate Olympics called the Comonwealth. Come on will ye.

ejmaztec

McArmalite wrote: »

I wonder do say, the Czechs, look over their shoulder with a cringe trying to invent reasons and obscure theories why the are Austro/Hungarian ? I doubt it, very, very much.

Yes, that's hardly likely because those regarded as Austrians, Germans and Hungarians were thrown out of the country after WW2, and all their properties confiscated.

Ireland didn't have a mass expulsion, much as one or two people would like to see it happen.

CDfm

But how about Latvians and Russians -thats a lot more recent and the latvians closed the Russian schools.

You cant force an ethnic identity on someone McA.

T runner

junder wrote: »

Maybe in your myopic world but i know personely of few people born and reared in the RoI and see them themselves as cultrally British and would like to be British citzens without having to move out of the country of thier birth.

Again the confusion "culturally British". How can they have a "British" culture if they have been born and reared in Ireland? They may have a particular Irish culture which is similar to a particular British one. This is hardly a valid reason to expect the government of the ROI to make the allowance for them to apply for the passport of the country whose culture may be similar to theirs. There may be many Jewish people in Dublin whose culture may have a lot in common with Israelis. Are they to be issued Israeli passports? Or just recognised as a sub-culture within Ireland which in some ways is similar to a foreign culture but is primarily a part of multicultural Ireland.

In the case for example of Presbytarians from Donegal their culture may have similarities to the presbytarian culture within NI. But the presbytarian culture within NI is an Irish culture which is similar to a British one (Scots Presbytarians).

So they would be seeking a British passport based on a similarity to another Irish culture
which is similar to a culture in Scotland.

Another point is that if they are born and reared in ROI then how do they know exactly what a British culture is?

The fact is that most Presbytarians and COIs in ROI are happily Irish and would not classify themselves as British so the question wouldnt apply in any event. They are not the majority culture but this has not hindered their access to quality education, business oppurtunities or freedom of worship i.e. they are happy and doing well.

junder

T runner wrote: »

Again the confusion "culturally British". How can they have a "British" culture if they have been born and reared in Ireland? They may have a particular Irish culture which is similar to a particular British one. This is hardly a valid reason to expect the government of the ROI to make the allowance for them to apply for the passport of the country whose culture may be similar to theirs. There may be many Jewish people in Dublin whose culture may have a lot in common with Israelis. Are they to be issued Israeli passports? Or just recognised as a sub-culture within Ireland which in some ways is similar to a foreign culture but is primarily a part of multicultural Ireland.

In the case for example of Presbytarians from Donegal their culture may have similarities to the presbytarian culture within NI. But the presbytarian culture within NI is an Irish culture which is similar to a British one (Scots Presbytarians).

So they would be seeking a British passport based on a similarity to another Irish culture
which is similar to a culture in Scotland.

Another point is that if they are born and reared in ROI then how do they know exactly what a British culture is?

The fact is that most Presbytarians and COIs in ROI are happily Irish and would not classify themselves as British so the question wouldnt apply in any event. They are not the majority culture but this has not hindered their access to quality education, business oppurtunities or freedom of worship i.e. they are happy and doing well.

So a person of polish heretige can not feel cultrally polish born and reared in the RoI, what about indian, pakistani heretige, African, Jamican? or is it just those who feel cutrally British are to be denyied their heretige. Those who believe they are Irish can apply within northern Ireland for a irish passport can get one some the same should be allowed for those who feel they are British who live within the RoI should be allowed to get British passports simple matter of equlity at the end of the day