Irish-born British?

Hookey

Dara O'Briain does a good routine about this in his latest stand-up "I will love my English child", where he goes on about his kid scoring the winning goal for England. At Croke Park.

My experience in the UK was that huge numbers of second generation Irish people are keen to proclaim their Irishness, but not to the extent of getting an Irish passport, and hardly any first generation Irish in Britain (or Brits in Ireland) will bother to naturalise and take citizenship, because its largely pointless these days; all part of the gradual homogenisation of national identities into the EU.

CDfm

bogtotty wrote: »

Only if your parents had claimed British citizenship and held British passports.

If living in the UK you can apply for a british passport but the nationality box will say irish

Judgement Day

CDfm wrote: »

If living in the UK you can apply for a british passport but the nationality box will say irish

That sounds very odd to me are you sure? I have just looked at my own British passport and sure enough there is a space for nationality - very strange - I mean why would they issue a 'British' passport to someone of a different nationality? It seems a contradiction in terms.

CDfm

Judgement Day wrote: »

That sounds very odd to me are you sure? I have just looked at my own British passport and sure enough there is a space for nationality - very strange - I mean why would they issue a 'British' passport to someone of a different nationality? It seems a contradiction in terms.

Dunno - I had one - in fact William Joyce(Lord Haw Haw) was hanged for fraudulently travelling on a British Passport so it probably should carry a health warning.:D

Anyway here are the rules from the British embassy in Dublin

Do I qualify?
Birth in the UK:

In most cases, a person born before 1 January 1983 in the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) is eligible to hold a British passport.

Since 1 January 1983, a person born in the UK is eligible for a British passport if, at the time of their birth, one of their parents was:

a British Citizen or
a person with settled status in the UK (i.e. an EU national, a person who had been granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK by the Home Office, or a Commonwealth Citizen with the right of abode in the UK.

If the parent concerned was the father, he must have married the mother of the child either before or after the birth. However, for births on or since 1 July 2006, it is sufficient for the father's name to appear on the birth certificate, provided this birth certificate is issued within one year of the birth.

Birth overseas:
British nationality is now transmitted only to the first generation born abroad:

Before 1 January 1983, this could only be passed on through a British father born or registered as a Citizen of the UK and Colonies in the UK. Usually, the father had to be married to the mother of the child, before or after the birth. See above for births since 1 July 2006.


Since 1 January 1983, the claim can also be made through a British mother born, or after registration is a Citizen of the UK and Colonies or a British Citizen.


Special arrangements are in place if the child was born overseas whilst one of the parents was on Crown or other designated service.

Persons born in the Republic of Ireland before 1 January 1949 with a parent born in Ireland before 31 March 1922 are also eligible to hold a special type of British passport.

Persons born in the Republic on or after 1 January 1949 count as being born overseas.

Persons born in the former British Crown Colony of Hong Kong are also eligible to hold a special type of British passport ("British National (Overseas)"), if they had already applied for such a passport before Hong Kong returned to the People's Republic of China.

There are many instances in British Nationality legislation where, due to a unique combination of ancestry, place and date of birth, a person may qualify for a British passport automatically, especially if they were born before 1 January 1983. If not, they may be able to register with the Home Office as a British Citizen before applying for a British passport.

If you believe that you have such a claim, please send us as much detail as you can about the date and place of your birth and those of your forebears back to your grandparents. Please include marriage details of your parents and grandparents.

ALL FIRST TIME CLAIMS TO BRITISH NATIONALITY MUST BE BACKED UP WITH SUITABLE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE IN THE FORM OF ORIGINAL BIRTH, MARRIAGE AND REGISTRATION CERTIFICATES (OR CERTIFIED COPIES FROM THE ISSUING OFFICE CONCERNED).

For more information on British Nationality matters visit the Home Office website.

Now a passport really is an application to the Secretary of State for "protection" when travelling outside the UK.

My understanding is that an Irish Person who has settled in the UK may be deemed to be a British subject and it is on that basis and it is a voluntary status . Being a "subject" does not nesscessarily make you a Citizen and the terms are not interchangeable.

Thats how I understand it- but others are free to correct me.

who the fug

CDfm wrote: »

If living in the UK you can apply for a british passport but the nationality box will say irish

What Nationality box are you on about , I have 10 passports in font of me and I can't find it in any of them, all it says is British Citizen

CDfm

who the fug wrote: »

What Nationality box are you on about , I have 10 passports in font of me and I can't find it in any of them, all it says is British Citizen

it should be under your name -same on my irish passport it follows a standard eu format.

i needed a british passport for work to go to commonwealth countries withoutneeding a visa

who the fug

Looked at mine and it just says British Citizen, no mention of Irish anywhere.


got mine cause I was entitled and it saved hassle in the UAE and Oman with visas , and you don't want to go to Gib 3 months after the shootings on an Irish one

getz

CDfm wrote: »

it should be under your name -same on my irish passport it follows a standard eu format.

i needed a british passport for work to go to commonwealth countries withoutneeding a visa

on my british passport all it says is place of birth ,in my case it says sale[thats a town just outside manchester] on my wifes passport in place of birth it says gibraltar,so would a person from northern ireland have say in place of birth belfast or northern ireland ?

McArmalite

bogtotty wrote: »

Returning to the OP, many British-born families moved here for work. Their Irish-born children still identify themselves as British, as that is the nationality of their parents, just as the foreign-born children of Irish emigrants still retain Irish citizenship and documentation.



Possibly because they have dual citizenship, or because they have 1 Irish parent and 1 British parent, or because they have some sort of claim on both identities. And not all Britons are Unionists...?





Perhaps among the less-informed Germans, French, Americans etc. That doesn't make it correct. Tell any Scotsman who identifies himself as British 'sure, you're practically English'. Go on, I dare you.



Britain is our most important trade partner. Millions of Irish have settled in Britain, millions more travel there to work for shorter periods or for seasonal work. Thousands of Irish study at British universities, more than in any other country. Most of our electricity comes from Britain. Sky is the most popular satellite service in Ireland. Guess what? It's British, containing predominantly British programmes. The most popular soaps are British. Support for British football teams is massive. Our laws strongly resemble British ones. Many of our newspapers are just syndicated Irish editions of British papers.

America is our weird, bombastic, hyperactive distant cousin. Britain is our half-sister. We may argue but we'll never escape each other, and deep down we'd never really want to.

As bad an attempt to wind someone up as I've seen in a long time......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

McArmalite

CDfm wrote: »

Dunno - I had one - in fact William Joyce(Lord Haw Haw) was hanged for fraudulently travelling on a British Passport so it probably should carry a health warning.:D

Joyce was actually born in America. Family moved back to Galway when he was young. Regardless, he was an American citizen under international law and I'll bet the US weren't too interested in protecting this particuliar ' citizen '.

who the fug

McArmalite wrote: »

Joyce was actually born in America. Family moved back to Galway when he was young. Regardless, he was an American citizen under international law and I'll bet the US weren't too interested in protecting this particuliar ' citizen '.

He never had a US passport, the only passport he had was the one he applied to leave the UK to go to Germany just before the war so he clearly opted in to the UK, so hiding behind the US is a red herring.

His father left Ireland in a hurry after the independence

McArmalite

who the fug wrote: »

He never had a US passport, the only passport he had was the one he applied to leave the UK to go to Germany just before the war so he clearly opted in to the UK, so hiding behind the US is a red herring.

His father left Ireland in a hurry after the independence

No, under international law he was an American citizen. You are a citizen of the country where you were born, like it or not. You may reject it culturally etc if you happen to grow up or have an affinity with/in another country, but as I said, like it or not you are still a citizen of the country you were actually born in. I knew a guy ( a bad egg as it goes ), born in Ireland, raised in Canada with the rest of his family from 2 or 3, got into trouble several times there, was sent back to Ireland around 30 years old as he was only a naturalised citizen.

The country you were born in, even if for only the first day of your life, you are a citizen of it whether you like it or not.

( But your right, his father did run out of the country, they were a Catholic unionist family who collaborated with the brits, think they tried to spy on the local republicans in Galway or something. )

getz

McArmalite wrote: »

No, under international law he was an American citizen. You are a citizen of the country where you were born, like it or not. You may reject it culturally etc if you happen to grow up or have an affinity with/in another country, but as I said, like it or not you are still a citizen of the country you were actually born in. I knew a guy ( a bad egg as it goes ), born in Ireland, raised in Canada with the rest of his family from 2 or 3, got into trouble several times there, was sent back to Ireland around 30 years old as he was only a naturalised citizen.

The country you were born in, even if for only the first day of your life, you are a citizen of it whether you like it or not.

thats a big turn round on your part,from send all the people who were born in northern ireland back to scotland [remember] and now you say you are a citizen of the country you were born in,please make your mind up,then let us know

CDfm

McArmalite wrote: »

No, under international law he was an American citizen.

International law would be irrelevant as the US is a sovereign country and legislates itself

You are a citizen of the country where you were born, like it or not.

Not so in Ireland. That was so pre 2005 but now the citizenship of the parents is taken into account.


Anyway Lord Haw Haw was a member of the British Union of Fascists.

CDfm

getz wrote: »

on my british passport all it says is place of birth ,in my case it says sale[thats a town just outside manchester] on my wifes passport in place of birth it says gibraltar,so would a person from northern ireland have say in place of birth belfast or northern ireland ?

Does it give a space for nationality under your name???

In my Irish Passport it gives Irish ? Cant find my British one but from memory it said Nationality Irish.

getz

CDfm wrote: »

Does it give a space for nationality under your name???

In my Irish Passport it gives Irish ? Cant find my British one but from memory it said Nationality Irish.

there is no mention of me being born in england,as far the passport is concerned ,the only place of birth is sale,no mention of england/scotland/wales and i would think its the same for northern ireland,but thats the part i am not so sure about ,maybe one of our northern threadies can tell us

Winty

McArmalite wrote: »

Tell you what, since your so british maybe you should start a " Let's rejoin the british Commonwealth " movement and see if you can attract as big a crowd as you'd get at a junior hurling match at this time of year

Ah sure, maybe if rain becomes an esstenial source or if the Corrib gas field turns out to be huge, we can expect a revisit from our lovely british friends down south on the pretext of looking for weapons of mass destruction or whatever, and you'll be there on O'Connell St waving your little union jack

McArmalite is a prolific writer on Boards and in all cases as the debate moves forward his aggression and childish anti-British agenda takes hold of him like a red mist. I wonder what English football team he supports

McArmalite

CDfm wrote: »

International law would be irrelevant as the US is a sovereign country and legislates itself




Not so in Ireland. That was so pre 2005 but now the citizenship of the parents is taken into account.


Anyway Lord Haw Haw was a member of the British Union of Fascists.

As stated in post #41 " Regardless, he was an American citizen under international law and I'll bet the US weren't too interested in protecting this particuliar ' citizen '. " :rolleyes:

getz wrote: »

thats a big turn round on your part,from send all the people who were born in northern ireland back to scotland [remember] and now you say you are a citizen of the country you were born in,please make your mind up,then let us know

We're goin WAY off topic but I never stated " send all the people who were born in northern Ireland back to Scotland "

Winty wrote: »

McArmalite is a prolific writer on Boards and in all cases as the debate moves forward his aggression and childish anti-British agenda takes hold of him like a red mist. I wonder what English football team he supports

Again we're WAY off topic, but in reply :rolleyes:. Little interest in soccer. Besides, most of the players in the ' English ' league are from every where but britain and similarily the owners of the clubs.

Hookey

McArmalite wrote: »

The country you were born in, even if for only the first day of your life, you are a citizen of it whether you like it or not.

Nonsense. Your citizenship can be based on either your country of birth or your parentage if different, and it doesn't even have to be both parents, plus the combination of countries you're claiming citizenship for (some countries don't allow dual nationality, others do; Arnold Schwarzenegger holds Austrian and US citizenship for example, but he doesn't have to, and could renounce his Austrian citizenship at any time). I personally know a couple of people with dual citizenship, Canadian-British and Peruvian-Spanish, but in no case do they have to be citizens of the country they were born in.

McArmalite

Hookey wrote: »

Nonsense. Your citizenship can be based on either your country of birth or your parentage if different, and it doesn't even have to be both parents, plus the combination of countries you're claiming citizenship for (some countries don't allow dual nationality, others do; Arnold Schwarzenegger holds Austrian and US citizenship for example, but he doesn't have to, and could renounce his Austrian citizenship at any time). I personally know a couple of people with dual citizenship, Canadian-British and Peruvian-Spanish, but in no case do they have to be citizens of the country they were born in.

:rolleyes: From my post #43 " You are a citizen of the country where you were born, like it or not. You may reject it culturally etc if you happen to grow up or have an affinity with/in another country, but as I said, like it or not you are still a citizen of the country you were actually born in. I knew a guy ( a bad egg as it goes ), born in Ireland, raised in Canada with the rest of his family from 2 or 3, got into trouble several times there, was sent back to Ireland around 30 years old as he was only a naturalised Canadian citizen. "

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

:rolleyes: From my post #43 " You are a citizen of the country where you were born, like it or not. You may reject it culturally etc if you happen to grow up or have an affinity with/in another country, but as I said, like it or not you are still a citizen of the country you were actually born in. I knew a guy ( a bad egg as it goes ), born in Ireland, raised in Canada with the rest of his family from 2 or 3, got into trouble several times there, was sent back to Ireland around 30 years old as he was only a naturalised Canadian citizen. "

i thought there was a referendum in Ireland a few years ago to decide that people born in Ireland were not automatically Irish Citizens.

If Mr and Mrs Eriksson from Sweden nip over for a weekend and mrs E goes into labour, Eriksson junior is not Irish are they?

toomevara

I've got British and Irish passports, though born and educated in Ireland, never really liked the place, too clannish, too much hypocrisy and I left as soon as I could. I don't consider it home and could never live there. So i'd happily characterise myself as Irish born British. There are loads of us over here in the UK! I'm often called a west-brit by mates, something I consider a compliment....

Hookey

McArmalite wrote: »

:rolleyes: From my post #43 " You are a citizen of the country where you were born, like it or not. You may reject it culturally etc if you happen to grow up or have an affinity with/in another country, but as I said, like it or not you are still a citizen of the country you were actually born in. I knew a guy ( a bad egg as it goes ), born in Ireland, raised in Canada with the rest of his family from 2 or 3, got into trouble several times there, was sent back to Ireland around 30 years old as he was only a naturalised Canadian citizen. "

Rubbish. The only way he could have been sent back to Ireland is if he never got Canadian citizenship and still only held an Irish passport. If he actually had Canadian citizenship (not residency) they couldn't kick him out, only lock him up as a Canadian. I'll repeat, your citizenship doesn't have to have anything to do with country of birth and you're not tied to where you were born for life.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i thought there was a referendum in Ireland a few years ago to decide that people born in Ireland were not automatically Irish Citizens.

If Mr and Mrs Eriksson from Sweden nip over for a weekend and mrs E goes into labour, Eriksson junior is not Irish are they?

Yep Fred, little junior will be given an Irish birth cert and can claim Irish citizenship even though Mr and Mrs Eriksson bring him back to Sweden the land of viking goddesses a few days later.

McArmalite

Hookey wrote: »

Rubbish. The only way he could have been sent back to Ireland is if he never got Canadian citizenship and still only held an Irish passport. If he actually had Canadian citizenship (not residency) they couldn't kick him out, only lock him up as a Canadian. I'll repeat, your citizenship doesn't have to have anything to do with country of birth and you're not tied to where you were born for life.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: This is for America but it's the same throughout the world " Naturalized Citizen - One who, having been born in another country or otherwise reared as a foreigner, has been granted U.S. Citizenship" http://www.answers.com/topic/naturalized-citizen

When someone is a naturalised citizen, the citizenship can be reinvoked and the passport etc taken away. (Their may be some obscure bye laws for parents on diplomatic or military service or whatever, of that I'm not sure ). It's happened to serious criminals, a few maifioso have been sent back to Italy for been bold boys. The Canadian guy I knew actually was in prison several times over there and was kicked out regardless that he had lived there most of his life.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Yep Fred, little junior will be given an Irish birth cert and can claim Irish citizenship even though Mr and Mrs Eriksson bring him back to Sweden the land of viking goddesses a few days later.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/irish-citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent

Under the provisions of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004 (pdf), children born of certain foreign national parents on or after 1 January 2005 are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship. A child born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship if they have a British parent or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency. Other foreign national parents of children born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 must prove that they have a genuine link to Ireland. This will be evidenced by being resident legally in the island of Ireland for at least 3 out of the previous 4 years immediately before the birth of the child. On proof of a genuine link to Ireland their child will be entitled to Irish citizenship and can apply for a certificate of nationality - see 'How to apply' below.

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

Hookey

McArmalite wrote: »

Yep Fred, little junior will be given an Irish birth cert and can claim Irish citizenship even though Mr and Mrs Eriksson bring him back to Sweden the land of viking goddesses a few days later.

Also not true. Since 2005 they would only get a passport for little Sven or Inga if they'd been in Ireland for 3 years:

The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 2004, which commenced on 1 January, 2005 provides that non-Irish nationals are required to be resident in the island of Ireland for a three year period prior to the birth of their child, for that child to be entitled to Irish citizenship. This altered the previous situation whereby a child born in the island of Ireland was automatically entitled to Irish citizenship. Information on making an application for a passport for a child born on or after 1 January, 2005 can be found on the Department of Foreign Affairs website www.foreignaffairs.gov.ie

Hookey

McArmalite wrote: »

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: This is for America but it's the same throughout the world " Naturalized Citizen - One who, having been born in another country or otherwise reared as a foreigner, has been granted U.S. Citizenship" http://www.answers.com/topic/naturalized-citizen

When someone is a naturalised citizen, the citizenship can be reinvoked and the passport etc taken away. (Their may be some obscure bye laws for parents on diplomatic or military service or whatever, of that I'm not sure ). It's happened to serious criminals, a few maifioso have been sent back to Italy for been bold boys. The Canadian guy I knew actually was in prison several times over there and was kicked out regardless that he had lived there most of his life.

But if he'd had Canadian parents he wouldn't be a naturalised citizen. He'd be a Canadian citizen (by virtue of parents) and an Irish citizen (by virtue of birth) - some countries make you choose one or the other by 21 or 25. Your assertion was your country of birth is all that matters and it isn't true.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/irish-citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent

" Irish citizenship through birth or descent is a complex area. This document aims to explain the law regarding Irish citizenship as clearly as possible. "

If you are: Then you are:
A Born in the island of Ireland on or before 31 December 2004 Entitled to Irish citizenship or you are an Irish citizen
B Born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 Entitled to Irish citizenship if your parents are Irish. Entitled to Irish citizenship, if your parents are foreign nationals legally resident in the island of Ireland for 3 out of 4 years immediately prior to your birth.
C Child of A, born outside the island of Ireland An Irish citizen
D Child of C and a grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland Entitled to Irish citizenship, but you must first register in the Foreign Births Register
E a child of D and a great-grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland Entitled to Irish citizenship, by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register, but only if your parent D had registered by the time of your birth.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/irish-citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent

Fine Fred fine, can we end this here now or take it up in the Law forum where I'm sure we can get much more expert opinion :rolleyes:

who the fug

McArmalite wrote: »

When someone is a naturalised citizen, the citizenship can be reinvoked and the passport etc taken away. (Their may be some obscure bye laws for parents on diplomatic or military service or whatever, of that I'm not sure ). It's happened to serious criminals, a few maifioso have been sent back to Italy for been bold boys. The Canadian guy I knew actually was in prison several times over there and was kicked out regardless that he had lived there most of his life.

Can you please name them maifioso?

must tell my nephew he is a Saudi my neices they be emirati, and let me uncle know he brought up a china girl

you can tell me old fella he be English