Irish-born British?

Nolanger

What makes someone born here considered British? Hollywood actor Richard Todd, techno musician Aphex Twin, and Danny La Rue are examples. 'Irish-born British' is a phrase that appears a lot. Why are these people not considered Irish when others not born here are?

Wibbs

Its often used when the person was born here before 1922. Usually its down to a sense of standard ownership though. Famous types are often associated with countries regardless of their place of birth. U2 as an example are thought of as Irish but AFAIR two of them were born in britain? I know the edge fella was. Someone like daniel day lewis is considered irish by many yet he's an english lad born and bred. Who was the irish actor in this position who said "If I win an award I'm British, but when I'm found drunk in a gutter I'm Irish".

Snickers Man

Comes down to personal choice at the end of the day.

If you were born in IReland of Irish parents whose own parents were born in Ireland, you're pretty much Irish and you can't get out of it. But so many people were born in one country to parents from another and so they have a choice.

My own dad was born in Africa, but try telling him he's not Irish. Both his parents were and he has lived here all his adult life. He's a paddy.

Two of the seven signatories to the Declaration of Independence (Connolly and Clarke) were born in Britain, but were put up against a wall and shot because they demanded Irish independence.

Rebelheart

Wibbs wrote: »

Its often used when the person was born here before 1922. Usually its down to a sense of standard ownership though. Famous types are often associated with countries regardless of their place of birth. U2 as an example are thought of as Irish but AFAIR two of them were born in britain? I know the edge fella was. Someone like daniel day lewis is considered irish by many yet he's an english lad born and bred. Who was the irish actor in this position who said "If I win an award I'm British, but when I'm found drunk in a gutter I'm Irish".

I think that would have been Brenda Fricker: 'When you are lying drunk at the airport you're Irish. When you win an Oscar you're British.'

DublinWriter

If you can be English and British, Welsh and British, Scottish and British, then why not Irish and British?

Unionists Gusty Spence and David Irvine considered themselves to be both Irish and British.

I think the term 'British' carries a lot of negative connotations and automatically means 'English' by those who consider themselves non-British.

Maybe the question to ask is does the term 'British' also automatically convey a pro-Unionist stance?

There's no denying the fact that as everyday Irish people the vast part of our culture is 'British' - we live in the British Isles and we speak English as our mother-tongue.

Yet Irish people would rather consider themselves European and Irish, when in fact there's little in the greater European culture and history that we have a natural affinity to.

johnny_doyle

in the case of Richard Todd it could be a mix of family and background. His father served with the BA (as a Doctor in the RAMC), winning the Military Cross and choosing to remain in the army after independence, moving to Co Antrim for a while, then India and settling in England. As a result Todd didn't spend much time growing up in Ireland. On his father's side, his grandmother was English. On his mother's side his grandmother was also English. His father's side was Presbyterian.

Todd's father died in WW2 after being recalled to the RAMC but died aged 49 :

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2929214


His father did play rugby for Ireland just before the outbreak of WW1.

http://www.scrum.com/ireland/rugby/player/2394.html

Balmed Out

i guess its just people born in ireland but grew up in Britain with a British identity, i lnow la rue was born in Cork but moved to england as a young child. Same as theres plenty of people born aroad but grew up in ireland and are considered Irish. Just depends on an individuals own view of their cultural identity and where they feel an affinity for

TheCandystripes

DublinWriter wrote: »

If you can be English and British, Welsh and British, Scottish and British, then why not Irish and British?

Unionists Gusty Spence and David Irvine considered themselves to be both Irish and British.

I think the term 'British' carries a lot of negative connotations and automatically means 'English' by those who consider themselves non-British.

Maybe the question to ask is does the term 'British' also automatically convey a pro-Unionist stance?

There's no denying the fact that as everyday Irish people the vast part of our culture is 'British' - we live in the British Isles and we speak English as our mother-tongue.

Yet Irish people would rather consider themselves European and Irish, when in fact there's little in the greater European culture and history that we have a natural affinity to.

Would you say Scandanavians are European?

CDfm

I think Bob Geldof and Terry Wogan have expressed the view that they have assimilated and not lived in Ireland for such a long time that they are British.

Danny La Rue well he is Dennehy from Cork so a homosexual drag artist has got to be British:p. Just joking but his cousin was Corks Lord Mayor and honoured him so he had buried his past.So maybe its a career move.

The other too Aphex and Todd I wouldnt really know about how people percieve them but its probably because they dont speak about their Irishness.

Richard Harris and the actor Peter O'Toole had no problem with O'Toole reputably turning down a knighthood.

KingKiller

CDfm wrote: »

I think Bob Geldof and Terry Wogan have expressed the view that they have assimilated and not lived in Ireland for such a long time that they are British.

Danny La Rue well he is Dennehy from Cork so a homosexual drag artist has got to be British:p. Just joking but his cousin was Corks Lord Mayor and honoured him so he had buried his past.So maybe its a career move.

The other too Aphex and Todd I wouldnt really know about how people percieve them but its probably because they dont speak about their Irishness.

Richard Harris and the actor Peter O'Toole had no problem with O'Toole reputably turning down a knighthood.

I don't think Wogan ever said anything about himself been British, indeed I'd say the opposite was very much the case. As for Sir Geldof, yes he's an honoury Brit - we are better off without the loudmouth Blackrock college boy. Same with Mr/Miss La Rue.

As for Aphex and Todd, who knows or cares who the feck they are :rolleyes:

DublinWriter

KingKiller wrote: »

I don't think Wogan ever said anything about himself been British

I distinctly remember TW commenting on a Eurovision one year and beginning a statement with the words "We British..."

McArmalite

DublinWriter wrote: »

If you can be English and British, Welsh and British, Scottish and British, then why not Irish and British?

26 counties of Ireland are recognised as the soverign terrority of Ireland, we have a passport etc, why would anyone, bar a unionist, want to call themselves british ?

Unionists Gusty Spence and David Irvine considered themselves to be both Irish and British.

Their's about as much chance that Spence and Irvine said their nationality was Irish as Paisley claiming to be a Catholic. Fiction.

I think the term 'British' carries a lot of negative connotations and automatically means 'English' by those who consider themselves non-British.
Maybe the question to ask is does the term 'British' also automatically convey a pro-Unionist stance?

The term british and English is practically the same thing, even among say Germans, French, America etc the term britian and England is interchangeable.
In Ireland those who practise their loyalty to britain are british - and I'm sure that would include yourself ?

There's no denying the fact that as everyday Irish people the vast part of our culture is 'British' - we live in the British Isles and we speak English as our mother-tongue.

Well then could you explain how aspects of our culture like Gaelic games, music, folk dance, customs, a history of trying to be free of britain is ' british ' ? Ok the language is only spoken by a minority, but Americans speak English, does that make them british. Much of our employment is from American multi nationals, American tv programmes and movies saturate the place, their's a McDonalds and Burger King etc all over the place, jeans, t shirts, sweatshirts etc are all US in origin, maybe we are closer to the Yanks. But then the brits have all the previous from America, except possibly the employment, so maybe the brits are Yanks too :eek: We also drive German, French and Italian cars as well as Japanese ones and have tons of electronic gadgets from the Asia, it's called the global village.;)

And Ireland is NOT a british island no more than us claiming that britain is an Irish island. And what ordinary Irish person ever refers to themselves as from ' the british isles ' :rolleyes:

Yet Irish people would rather consider themselves European and Irish, when in fact there's little in the greater European culture and history that we have a natural affinity to.

I would have thought if their was any country in the world that we least have an affinity to it's britain

McArmalite

DublinWriter wrote: »

I distinctly remember TW commenting on a Eurovision one year and beginning a statement with the words "We British..."

Like Spence and Irvine calling themselves Irish. Some memory :rolleyes:

DublinWriter

McArmalite wrote: »

Like Spence and Irvine calling themselves Irish. Some memory :rolleyes:

Irvine said as much on a BBC documentary about the building of the WWI Round-Tower monument in France. I think it was broadcast in 2006.

DublinWriter

McArmalite wrote: »

I would have thought if their was any country in the world that we least have an affinity to it's britain

So, we'll be having this argument os Béarla then?

DublinWriter

McArmalite wrote: »

Well then could you explain how aspects of our culture like Gaelic games, music, folk dance, customs,

Mid nineteenth century middle-class Gaelic revisionism and revivalism.

DublinWriter

McArmalite wrote: »

The term british and English is practically the same thing,

...and thereupon I'll have to close the argument with you if you're so ignorant to the basic terms of reference that a debate such as this needs.

In closing, you'll argue that 800 years of English occupation f*cked this country up, well, we Irish are so brilliant that we did it in 80.

McArmalite

DublinWriter wrote: »

...and thereupon I'll have to close the argument with you if you're so ignorant to the basic terms of reference that a debate such as this needs.

In closing, you'll argue that 800 years of English occupation f*cked this country up, well, we Irish are so brilliant that we did it in 80.

Tell you what, since your so british maybe you should start a " Let's rejoin the british Commonwealth " movement and see if you can attract as big a crowd as you'd get at a junior hurling match at this time of year

Ah sure, maybe if rain becomes an esstenial source or if the Corrib gas field turns out to be huge, we can expect a revisit from our lovely british friends down south on the pretext of looking for weapons of mass destruction or whatever, and you'll be there on O'Connell St waving your little union jack

CDfm

DublinWriter wrote: »

I distinctly remember TW commenting on a Eurovision one year and beginning a statement with the words "We British..."

Limerick people have no shame.

He would have had no need to say that if he was from Cork

CDfm

Here is a fact sheet for the numbers of Irish Abroad.

In Britain 1 in 10 Britons have 1 or more grandparents who were Irish -thats 10%

http://www.ean.ie/issues/how-many-irish-people-live-abroad-an-ean-factsheet/


At the risk of sounding like an eejit -I believe there was an amount of Irish people born pre 1949 who claimed British Citizenship. So its not that clearcut.

I mean if you are having a pop at Geldof and Wogan they make their living there, and have brought up their kids there.

Would anyone sniff if an Irish person took out US, Canadian or Austrailian citizenship?Did Pierce Brosnan become American.

getz

remember british is a collective not a country, you can be english/scottish/welsh/iriish[northern]isle of man,from gibraltar ect,and be british, in fact last time i looked it up,i came up with a figure of 65,000 people who were living in the republic who have british passports,

CDfm

Here is an interesting link - its not unknown for an Irish person to apply for British Citizenship.

http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/Treaties/citizenship.htm

How many Irish people born before 1949 have British subject status?

Approximately 165,000 claims to retain British subject status have been made since 1949, with about 2,500 claims being made each year in the 1990s. There are no figures on how many of these people are still alive, but it is likely to be at least half of the above number. There is no information available on how many of these are living in Southern Ireland as opposed to elsewhere.

How many Irish people living in Britain take out British citizenship?

Currently about 100 Irish citizens per year (including children) are naturalised or registered as British citizens each year. During the 1960s this was about 700 per year, but has gradually reduced since then.

Zebra3

Sorry for going OT but could I (as an Irish citizen) get a British passport as both my parents were born before in Ireland 1949?

Just curious.

bogtotty

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sorry for going OT but could I (as an Irish citizen) get a British passport as both my parents were born before in Ireland 1949?

Just curious.

Only if your parents had claimed British citizenship and held British passports.

bogtotty

Returning to the OP, many British-born families moved here for work. Their Irish-born children still identify themselves as British, as that is the nationality of their parents, just as the foreign-born children of Irish emigrants still retain Irish citizenship and documentation.

McArmalite wrote: »

26 counties of Ireland are recognised as the soverign terrority of Ireland, we have a passport etc, why would anyone, bar a unionist, want to call themselves british ?

Possibly because they have dual citizenship, or because they have 1 Irish parent and 1 British parent, or because they have some sort of claim on both identities. And not all Britons are Unionists...?

McArmalite wrote: »

The term british and English is practically the same thing, even among say Germans, French, America etc the term britian and England is interchangeable.

Perhaps among the less-informed Germans, French, Americans etc. That doesn't make it correct. Tell any Scotsman who identifies himself as British 'sure, you're practically English'. Go on, I dare you.

McArmalite wrote: »

Much of our employment is from American multi nationals, American tv programmes and movies saturate the place, their's a McDonalds and Burger King etc all over the place, jeans, t shirts, sweatshirts etc are all US in origin, maybe we are closer to the Yanks...

I would have thought if their was any country in the world that we least have an affinity to it's britain

Britain is our most important trade partner. Millions of Irish have settled in Britain, millions more travel there to work for shorter periods or for seasonal work. Thousands of Irish study at British universities, more than in any other country. Most of our electricity comes from Britain. Sky is the most popular satellite service in Ireland. Guess what? It's British, containing predominantly British programmes. The most popular soaps are British. Support for British football teams is massive. Our laws strongly resemble British ones. Many of our newspapers are just syndicated Irish editions of British papers.

America is our weird, bombastic, hyperactive distant cousin. Britain is our half-sister. We may argue but we'll never escape each other, and deep down we'd never really want to.

getz

bogtotty wrote: »

Returning to the OP, many British-born families moved here for work. Their Irish-born children still identify themselves as British, as that is the nationality of their parents, just as the foreign-born children of Irish emigrants still retain Irish citizenship and documentation.



Possibly because they have dual citizenship, or because they have 1 Irish parent and 1 British parent, or because they have some sort of claim on both identities. And not all Britons are Unionists...?

bottom line every family has its love hate relationships,me and the wife

Perhaps among the less-informed Germans, French, Americans etc. That doesn't make it correct. Tell any Scotsman who identifies himself as British 'sure, you're practically English'. Go on, I dare you.



Britain is our most important trade partner. Millions of Irish have settled in Britain, millions more travel there to work for shorter periods or for seasonal work. Thousands of Irish study at British universities, more than in any other country. Most of our electricity comes from Britain. Sky is the most popular satellite service in Ireland. Guess what? It's British, containing predominantly British programmes. The most popular soaps are British. Support for British football teams is massive. Our laws strongly resemble British ones. Many of our newspapers are just syndicated Irish editions of British papers.

America is our weird, bombastic, hyperactive distant cousin. Britain is our half-sister. We may argue but we'll never escape each other, and deep down we'd never really want to.

you have forgotten the shops

bogtotty

getz wrote: »

you have forgotten the shops

Yes, sorry, the shops. I LOVE M&S knickers. Dunnes ones get very saggy after a couple of washes.

getz

bogtotty wrote: »

Yes, sorry, the shops. I LOVE M&S knickers. Dunnes ones get very saggy after a couple of washes.

strange isent it my wife cannot get enough of the irish shops, primark[pennies ] and dunnes in england

FiSe

bogtotty wrote: »

Returning to the OP, many British-born families moved here for work. Their Irish-born children still identify themselves as British, as that is the nationality of their parents, just as the foreign-born children of Irish emigrants still retain Irish citizenship and documentation.

I think that we are mixing 2 totally different things together. Nationality and citizenship.
You can have Irish nationality and holding citizenship of Great Britain. You can be British national /if there is such a thing as you'd probably be Scottish, Walesh or English nationality/ and have Irish citizenship.
I believe that there are a lot of 'foreign nationals' with Irish citizenship in Ireland and even more 'foreign nationals' in Britain with British passports.

Here what Britannica says about it:

Citizenship
Relationship between an individual and a state in which the individual owes allegiance to the state and in turn is entitled to its protection. In general, full political rights, including the right to vote and to hold public office, are predicated on citizenship. Citizenship entails obligations, usually including allegiance, payment of taxes, and military service. The concept arose in ancient Greece, where citizenship was granted only to property owners. The Romans initially used it as a privilege to be conferred upon or withheld from conquered peoples, but it was granted to all the empire's free inhabitants in AD 212. The concept disappeared in Europe during the feudal era but was revived in the Renaissance. Citizenship may normally be gained by birth within a certain territory, descent from a parent who is a citizen, marriage to a citizen, or naturalization.

Nationality
Affiliation with a particular nation or sovereign state. People, business corporations, ships, and aircraft all have nationalities. Nationality is inferior to citizenship, insofar as the latter implies a full set of political privileges and the former does not. Countries have limited rights to determine which of their inhabitants will be their nationals. People generally acquire a nationality by birth within a particular country's territory, by inheritance from one or both parents, or by naturalization. It may change or be augmented or taken away if a country cedes control of the territory where one lives to another country.

DUBDUBDUB

I am Scottish and have never considered myself to be British. Despite the fact i served in the British forces for a while with many irishmen.

As for the whole "if i win an award i am British, if i am drunk at an airport I am Irish" we are all guilty of selecting the best and associating them with our nation. Peter O tooles mother was Scottish and he was probably born in Leeds, so was he Scottish (by Standard Irish rules he would be as his Ma was Scottish and he was good at what he did) or was he Irish as his Da was from Ireland??

Baby P's heritage was distinctly Irish and I didnt hear anyone queuing up to claim his Ma and Da as Irish?? making him Irish

We are all guilty of it.

ejmaztec

DUBDUBDUB wrote: »

I am Scottish and have never considered myself to be British. Despite the fact i served in the British forces for a while with many irishmen.

As for the whole "if i win an award i am British, if i am drunk at an airport I am Irish" we are all guilty of selecting the best and associating them with our nation. Peter O tooles mother was Scottish and he was probably born in Leeds, so was he Scottish (by Standard Irish rules he would be as his Ma was Scottish and he was good at what he did) or was he Irish as his Da was from Ireland??

Baby P's heritage was distinctly Irish and I didnt hear anyone queuing up to claim his Ma and Da as Irish?? making him Irish

We are all guilty of it.

e.g JFK was Irish.

Someone like myself, with dual British/Irish nationality, would be English if I were a serial killer, and Irish if I won the Nobel Peace Prize.

In the UK, the opposite would happen.