The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

bruschi · 02-10-2012 3:27pm

spiralism wrote: »

4 MVPs to two, fastest ever to 50,000 passing yards, 4000 completions and 400 TDs, none of which Brady has. Trails Brady in rings alone and if you're going to go down that road both are inferior to Terry Bradshaw and Dan Marino is inferior to Trent Dilfer. Also, Brady goes down and Belichick engineers an 11-5 season with his class team. Manning goes down last year and the Colts turn into a laughing stock.

so the only thing Brady has in records over Manning is superbowl rings? thats it? seriously?

Hazys · 02-10-2012 3:43pm

Syferus wrote: »

I didn't make that argument

Fair enough, i may have interpreted what the conversation was about from what you were saying along with what spiralism posted directly after.

Hazys · 02-10-2012 3:49pm

spiralism wrote: »

4 MVPs to two, fastest ever to 50,000 passing yards, 4000 completions and 400 TDs, none of which Brady has. Trails Brady in rings alone and if you're going to go down that road both are inferior to Terry Bradshaw and Dan Marino is inferior to Trent Dilfer. Also, Brady goes down and Belichick engineers an 11-5 season with his class team. Manning goes down last year and the Colts turn into a laughing stock.

Terrible arguement...fastest to 50,000 yards? what does that matter?

By the same arguement, Farve is the fastest to 300 ints, therefore he is the worst QB ever.

You can use stats to prove any arguement. Football is way more complicated than just spouting off random stats to prove a point.

I hate these simplistic arguements. Bradshaw has 5 Superbowl Rings, Brady has 3. 5 is greater than 3, therefore Bradshaw is Greater than Brady. That arguement ignores the fact Bradshaw played in an era with no salary cap or free agency which is a major difference in the eras.

The problem with these arguements of "who's better" is completely subjective. People value different sucesses and talents so it will be impossible for anybody to argee on who's the greatest QB of all time or even whos better between Manning and Brady (even tho is obviously Brady

). Thats why football is great, its too complicated to simplify. There are about 10 QBs in history who all have strong arguements for the greatest of all time. I don't think there are many sports in the world where the greatest ever is so wide open. Basketball: It's MJ. Hockey: It's Gretzky. Baseball: It's Babe Ruth. Golf: Tiger is a stong favourite. Soccer: there is 3 possibly 4 (Messi, Pele, Maradona, Zidane), etc. In Football, there is 10 in contention for just for one position, not to mention where Reggie White, LT, Jerry Rice, etc measure up.

spiralism · 02-10-2012 4:52pm

bruschi wrote: »

so the only thing Brady has in records over Manning is superbowl rings? thats it? seriously?

Some of these are pretty sweet too in fairness

Manning is also tied for Marino with most comeback/game winning drives (36), a record which pains me to admit is wrongly attributed to John Elway

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/peyton-manning-ties-dan-marino-fourth-quarter-comeback-record/16829/

Brady also has passer rating, though with lower attempts, only unanimous MVP, only two time Superbowl and Regular Season MVP, most TD passes and a 16-0 season. Its not as if he's got **** all in fairness, i'm being ignorant to say its just rings in the argument but Manning statistically has the edge by virtue of Brady's earlier years where he was more of a game manager and worked well in Belichick's system than the Quarterbacking God he is today. Manning was **** hot from his second season on pretty much because he had to be, he carried the Colts from there on in.

Chucky the tree · 02-10-2012 7:07pm

A non QB would never be included in a GOAT list of NFL players tbh.

nerd69 · 02-10-2012 7:08pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

A non QB would never be included in a GOAT list of NFL players tbh.

Ever herd of jerry rice

Justin10 · 02-10-2012 7:14pm

I always thought that Brady had the better arm, but Manning had the smarts.

GoldFour4 · 02-10-2012 7:17pm

Tim Tebow > Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.
Discuss ?

davyjose · 02-10-2012 7:50pm

nerd69 wrote: »

Chucky the tree wrote: »

A non QB would never be included in a GOAT list of NFL players tbh.

Ever herd of jerry rice

+1. Rice routinely makes it to number 1 on GOAT lists.

mongoman · 02-10-2012 11:27pm

Brady's achievements are even more amazing, when you consider he hasn't had the luxury of playing indoors like Manning has for nearly all his career. Weather has a huge impact on games and playing in Foxborough can can be pretty damn tough in the wind and cold.

spiralism · 03-10-2012 12:30am

mongoman wrote: »

Brady's achievements are even more amazing, when you consider he hasn't had the luxury of playing indoors like Manning has for nearly all his career. Weather has a huge impact on games and playing in Foxborough can can be pretty damn tough in the wind and cold.

Manning has played approximately half of his games outdoors (at a stretch, maybe as low as 40%) mind you, bit facile an argument i always thought. Look at the conditions Manning won his ring in - a torrential downpour. I mean it absolutely pissed down, it was an Irish July's worth of rain in one night.

Brady has had the luxury of better coaching and better players around him to offset that at any rate.

Chucky the tree · 03-10-2012 12:54am

nerd69 wrote: »

Ever herd of jerry rice

Of course. He still wouldn't make it though. QB's win game at the end of the day and while Rice was the GOAT WR his lack of importance(compared to QBs) takes him down a notch or two.

ReacherCreature · 03-10-2012 1:15am

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Of course. He still wouldn't make it though. QB's win game at the end of the day and while Rice was the GOAT WR his lack of importance(compared to QBs) takes him down a notch or two.

Rice would absolutely make a list of the greatest of all time.

nerd69 · 03-10-2012 2:04am

Chucky the tree wrote: »

nerd69 wrote: »

Ever herd of jerry rice

Of course. He still wouldn't make it though. QB's win game at the end of the day and while Rice was the GOAT WR his lack of importance(compared to QBs) takes him down a notch or two.

That would be true if we were talkin about the MVP of all time but were not in my opinion rice is the greatest player ever

davyjose · 03-10-2012 2:19am

mongoman wrote: »

Brady's achievements are even more amazing, when you consider he hasn't had the luxury of playing indoors like Manning has for nearly all his career. Weather has a huge impact on games and playing in Foxborough can can be pretty damn tough in the wind and cold.

if New England had played the Oakland Raiders indoor in 2002, they wouldn't have reached the super bowl. You can work that argument both ways.

Brady is clearly an all time great QB, but he was very lucky with how he stepped into a SB calibre team. Manning stepped into the worst team in the league. And had to build from scratch. That's something not often brought up in brady V Manning debates. /2c

Arawn · 03-10-2012 2:23am

Both are top notch but for me person take it purely because he was so injury free till last season. You know that helps a team out

Hazys · 03-10-2012 3:02am

davyjose wrote: »

if New England had played the Oakland Raiders indoor in 2002, they wouldn't have reached the super bowl. You can work that argument both ways.

Why?

Brady is clearly an all time great QB, but he was very lucky with how he stepped into a SB calibre team. Manning stepped into the worst team in the league. And had to build from scratch. That's something not often brought up in brady V Manning debates. /2c

I dont think that point is valid. The Patriots were not a the most talented team in Brady's first or second seasons as a starter, they were only slightly above average...hence the massive underdogs versus the Rams. The season after they won the Superbowl, they didn't make the playoffs. The season before he took over they went 5-11, hardly walking into a Superbowl caliber team

Hazys · 03-10-2012 3:09am

Just watched the new 30 for 30 episode "Broke"...pretty good, crazy stuff

78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial distress within 2 years of retirement. :eek:

davyjose · 03-10-2012 7:02am

Hazys wrote: »

davyjose wrote: »

if New England had played the Oakland Raiders indoor in 2002, they wouldn't have reached the super bowl. You can work that argument both ways.

Why?

Brady is clearly an all time great QB, but he was very lucky with how he stepped into a SB calibre team. Manning stepped into the worst team in the league. And had to build from scratch. That's something not often brought up in brady V Manning debates. /2c

I dont think that point is valid. The Patriots were not a the most talented team in Brady's first or second seasons as a starter, they were only slightly above average...hence the massive underdogs versus the Rams. The season after they won the Superbowl, they didn't make the playoffs. The season before he took over they went 5-11, hardly walking into a Superbowl caliber team

The snow of Foxboro was a huuuge handicap to oakland. Im merely pointing out that the dome was never really as big an advantage as people think.

New England already had an excellent qb. As good as brady is, he wasnt a huge difference maker. That team had a LOT of talent on it. Underdogs or not.

Not a dig. Im actually trying to point out the chasm of differences between the two guys careers and why its juvenile and pointless to try explain who is better.

Son Of A Vidic · 03-10-2012 11:30am

davyjose wrote: »

Brady is clearly an all time great QB, but he was very lucky with how he stepped into a SB calibre team.

Just to correct you there, the Pats certainly were not a Superbowl caliber team when Brady took over. But they certainly became one once Brady became starting Quarterback.

mongoman · 03-10-2012 11:42am

spiralism wrote: »

Manning has played approximately half of his games outdoors (at a stretch, maybe as low as 40%) mind you, bit facile an argument i always thought. Look at the conditions Manning won his ring in - a torrential downpour.

You can thank the boot of Adam Vinatieri for that win.

spiralism wrote: »

Brady has had the luxury of better coaching and better players around him to offset that at any rate.

Clasping at straws there, 199th pick overall who was so good, he put drew Bledsoe on the bench. That fact alone speaks for itself.

JaMarcus Hustle · 03-10-2012 12:03pm

davyjose wrote: »

if New England had played the Oakland Raiders indoor in 2002, they wouldn't have reached the super bowl. You can work that argument both ways

...

The snow of Foxboro was a huuuge handicap to oakland. Im merely pointing out that the dome was never really as big an advantage as people think.

Yeah. Put Tom Brady indoors in perfect throwing conditions. That would have really handicapped us!

:rolleyes:

Chucky the tree · 03-10-2012 1:16pm

JaMarcus Hustle wrote: »

Yeah. Put Tom Brady indoors in perfect throwing conditions. That would have really handicapped us!

:rolleyes:

He never said it would. He said the snow handicapped the Raiders. Anyone who thinksthe Raiders wouldn't have a much better chance of winning that game in a Dome is crazy tbh.

Hulk Hands · 03-10-2012 1:37pm

Brady was the most vital cog in the Pats machine. Manning was the whole machine in Indy. I think last year showed that.

Brady had the 'luxury' of being a game manager in his early years as starter. Mannins thrown into the job of transforming the NFLs worst team, which he obviously performed with aplomb

Hazys · 03-10-2012 2:33pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He never said it would. He said the snow handicapped the Raiders. Anyone who thinksthe Raiders wouldn't have a much better chance of winning that game in a Dome is crazy tbh.

The Patriots beat the "Greatest Show On Turf" on turf in a dome that year so that Patriots team possibly could have played even better without the snow and won more easily against the Raiders. All this shoulda woulda coulda is pointless. There is no way to predict how a game would have turned out if you changed one aspect.

Chucky the tree · 03-10-2012 3:15pm

Hazys wrote: »

The Patriots beat the "Greatest Show On Turf" on turf in a dome that year so that Patriots team possibly could have played even better without the snow and won more easily against the Raiders. All this shoulda woulda coulda is pointless. There is no way to predict how a game would have turned out if you changed one aspect.

No one has tried to predict. However it's ridiculous to claim that the Raiders were not handicapped by playing in the snow.

Hazys · 03-10-2012 3:19pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No one has tried to predict. However it's ridiculous to claim that the Raiders were not handicapped by playing in the snow.

And the Patriots weren't?

Regardless who it benefited more, the Patriots earned home field advantage from having a better regular season record, so its a useless point.

Eire-Dearg · 03-10-2012 3:48pm

Can't think of a better place to ask, does anyone know if the first in the new 30 for 30 series 'Broke' is online anywhere, or if it'll be shown on our ESPN in the not too distant future?

Chucky the tree · 03-10-2012 4:52pm

Hazys wrote: »

And the Patriots weren't?

Regardless who it benefited more, the Patriots earned home field advantage from having a better regular season record, so its a useless point.

No where near as badly as the Raiders.

davyjose · 03-10-2012 5:23pm

Hazys wrote: »

And the Patriots weren't?

Regardless who it benefited more, the Patriots earned home field advantage from having a better regular season record, so its a useless point.

The Pats practice in the snow, the Raiders play in California. Anyone thinking the snow didn't help New England is deluding themselves.

The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

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