Is it Now?

donothoponpop

Tue 7.2 mile run, including 6 miles LT @ 7:13 pace

Well, any doubt I had about using swims/bikes as running substitutes is being put to question. My running form has gone to pot, the medium/long runs anyway. This felt very hard, it took a fair bit of effort to finish the last few miles. According to the program I'm doing, it should feel hard, but it also should be at 7:09 pace, which I lost on the couple of hills in Marlay Park. For a hill runner, that's not good enough. Still, its a step in the right direction.

Krusty_Clown

It sounds like you may need to work on your general aerobic base. e,g, getting out for the occasional 10-15 mile easy run. Have you given up on those because of the knee impact? How's the cider vinegar working out?

I'm not one for wive's tales and eye of newt tonics, but if it helps with my knee, I'll try anything.

donothoponpop

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It sounds like you may need to work on your general aerobic base. e,g, getting out for the occasional 10-15 mile easy run. Have you given up on those because of the knee impact? How's the cider vinegar working out?

I'm not one for wive's tales and eye of newt tonics, but if it helps with my knee, I'll try anything.

I was thinking the same thing as I sweated today- I'll probably introduce one easy long run (on trails, for fun) soon, and that might help. The idea behind the FIRST program is three hard sessions, of which todays was one, and easy sessions the other days. I've been doing swims/bikes for these, but probably going too hard and long on the swims, and too short and easy on the bike. The knee is getting better, I'll go another week on the cider vinegar before I take it on the road as a miracle cure's-what-ail's-ya, but it does appear to be helping. And I'm as skeptical as they come;)

theboyblunder

donothoponpop wrote: »

Tue 7.2 mile run, including 6 miles LT @ 7:13 pace

Well, any doubt I had about using swims/bikes as running substitutes is being put to question. My running form has gone to pot, the medium/long runs anyway. This felt very hard, it took a fair bit of effort to finish the last few miles. According to the program I'm doing, it should feel hard, but it also should be at 7:09 pace, which I lost on the couple of hills in Marlay Park. For a hill runner, that's not good enough. Still, its a step in the right direction.

I never do tempos around the perimeter of Marlay, the drags arent steep but they go on for too long! You drift past LT pretty quickly. You might know this already, but there is a great 1 mile loop in Marlay which woddle showed me, which is pretty flat and incorporates a shorter 1K loop. Just in case, heres a garmin log

If you run around there we must head out together sometime, woddle and meno too perhaps...

Good luck with the comeback, attempting something similar myself at the moment

donothoponpop

theboyblunder wrote: »

You drift past LT pretty quickly.

"LT" in the FIRST program is Long Tempo rather than Lactate Threshold (I presume thats what you mean?). I should have the legs for the hills, but its all gone for the moment:D

theboyblunder wrote: »

If you run around there we must head out together sometime, woddle and meno too perhaps...

Good luck with the comeback, attempting something similar myself at the moment

Cheers! Best of luck to you too tbb. I only do Marlay once in a blue moon, but yeah, always up for company!

donothoponpop

Tue pm 3.5k @ 4:39 pace

While training the kids tonight, I got talking to one of the parents, who is a member of Tinahely Tri Club. They were going for a local run tonight, so I headed down to meet them. Decent bunch, I just did about half of what they were doing, on the local Tinahely hilly roads. Pace should have been recovery, but it was a long dark hill, I'm known as a hill runner, I could hardly stay at the back of the bunch, now could I?

I'm looking forward to training in a group for a bit, I can get a lot of first hand bike tips etc.

donothoponpop

Wed 2.3k swim

I had my first Lane Fight today. Scan pool, one lane sectioned, one fella in it, grand. I get in, wait till he finishes his (very slow) backwards float, make sure he see's me and that he now has company, start swimming... half way down, we collide, he was swimming back the same side of the lane as he swam up. I mention to him we need to swim anti-clockwise in the lane, finish my lap, but he's waiting for me, and he's bulling. How dare I bash into him, he has bronchitis, he was in the lane first, he has to swim on his back, etc. I tell him we've both got as much right to the lane as each other, and that there's a sign telling user's to swim anti-clockwise, precisely to stop head on collisions between swimmers doing front crawl, and those doing backstroke.

But he wasn't having any of it, he's been coming here three years, this is how he swims, he doesn't like swimming along the wall and needs to swim along the rope because of his bronchitis (?!?). What do we do if another swimmer enters the lane, I ask? There's never more than two in the lane is his reply, and when I tell him you can have up to 8 in the lane he tells asks me "Are you starting?". No point arguing against a 60-yr old man with bronchitis, so I just swam up and down along the wall, and he got a face full of water every time I passed him, especially so when I was doing fast 10x25m dashes. I got to 2k, and left for the sauna, and of course he left straight after, guess he stubbornly wanted to be the last one swimming.

BeepBeep67

I find that people with bronchitis can't hold their breath for too long under water!

Dory Dory

Perhaps Mr. Bronchitis shouldn't be hanging out in warm, moist, bacteria breeding, closed environments. Little does the ailing old grump know that you hopped back in the pool for an additional 300! Guess he has no idea of the stubborn cat he was dealing with.

donothoponpop

Dory Dory wrote: »

Perhaps Mr. Bronchitis shouldn't be hanging out in warm, moist, bacteria breeding, closed environments. Little does the ailing old grump know that you hopped back in the pool for an additional 300! Guess he has no idea of the stubborn cat he was dealing with.

Guilty:o Yes I am indeed stubborn, although you'd never guess it from my chilled out and easy-going attitude on this forum.

nerraw1111

I’d like to think I’m very chilled but man is it hard to remain calm in a swimming pool. In any given lane there’s usually a bronchitis type chap who ignores the clockwise signs, a speedo wearing shaved numpty, and a pool walker.

You need to take deep breaths before even putting a toe in the water. I checked out some master sessions last night and they look to be the answer to avoiding this sort of nonsense. That was until some of the masters were pulling the same ****!

donothoponpop

Wed pm 28k bike

Unfortunately my knee is hurting today, after a fast road downhill last night, so a high cadence bike spin was just the ticket to massage it a bit. Easy enough pace.

Slogger Jogger

In the spirit of your pool experience I was driving home yesterday on backroads from Rathdrum past Macreddin when a cyclist (local yokel on an MTB) was cycling towards me on my side of the road. I slowed, trying to figure out what the hell he was doing. I stopped completely and beckoned him to his proper side of the road. He was having none of it. I wasn't in the mood for a row so I drove over the other side of the road to move past him as he shouted abuse after me. Cycling Wicklow styley.

donothoponpop

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

In the spirit of your pool experience I was driving home yesterday on backroads from Rathdrum past Macreddin when a cyclist (local yokel on an MTB) was cycling towards me on my side of the road. I slowed, trying to figure out what the hell he was doing. I stopped completely and beckoned him to his proper side of the road. He was having none of it. I wasn't in the mood for a row so I drove over the other side of the road to move past him as he shouted abuse after me. Cycling Wicklow styley.

I've seen you play chicken with cyclists in your car, my sympathies lie with the cyclists;) Although you did stop; could this be the start of a kinder, gentler, Slogger Jogger?:D

donothoponpop

Fri 2k wu, 5x800m @ 2:54, 3k wd

Intervals. A seemingly innocuous word, that creates dread and fear in the casual runners mind. These were scheduled for yesterday, but a sore knee planted the seed that I should put them off. This morning I was looking for ways to nurture that seed, and grow a great big anti-interval bush, but at lunchtime I literately told myself out loud "Just do the feckin session", and began the death march warmup jog to the local field. Once started, as ever, they fly by, amid many-mentally creative ways to mask pain. Barefoot, fresh breeze, distance by Garmin (so may be a little off), they were all half miles (must change Garmin for good) between 2:48-2:53. 300m walk in between each, as prescribed, and I think this full recovery aids the overall session. I did 8x400m too fast, with little recovery, last week, and was a bit blitzed for days after. Nothing wrong in going all out in intervals, but just for the moment I'm going to keep a decent recovery in between each session.

Great session though, and a weight has been lifted from my shoulders:D

Krusty_Clown

I struggle with 'the before' too. Recently I've found that blind resignation is the best policy. My new mantra is 'it will end'.
Well done. Very hard getting back into the hard stuff. While it never gets any easier (cos you just get faster and push harder) the results are most certainly worth it.

donothoponpop

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I struggle with 'the before' too. Recently I've found that blind resignation is the best policy. My new mantra is 'it will end'.
Well done. Very hard getting back into the hard stuff. While it never gets any easier (cos you just get faster and push harder) the results are most certainly worth it.

Strangely enough, the biking and swimming seem to have helped the faster, harder, stuff. It's the used-to-be-routine 10k in 42 mins thats the real problem!

Anyway, good to hear that you elites have the same problems, gives hope to us goody-baggers!:D

nerraw1111

Any reason you’re doing 800 metres over say 1km or a mile? What’s the thinking behind it? I’m doing 1km reps with the view to getting 5km and 10km times down. Better off doing 800m reps?

donothoponpop

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Any reason you’re doing 800 metres over say 1km or a mile? What’s the thinking behind it? I’m doing 1km reps with the view to getting 5km and 10km times down. Better off doing 800m reps?

Week 2 of a 12 week 10k plan. Next week has 2x1600m 1x800, week after 200 400 600 800 800 600 400 200, week after 4x1000... and so on. I don't know the science behind it, I'm placing my trust in the FIRST program, mainly because its 3 days hard running, and the rest I can do non-impact swim or bike stuff.

nerraw1111

Cheers. That looks like a decent plan, makes sense. Might follow it myself. Similar times/paces to McMillan. Guilty of running tempo runs too slow so three key runs sounds great.

Recommend any further reading or where did you hear about it?

donothoponpop

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Cheers. That looks like a decent plan, makes sense. Might follow it myself. Similar times/paces to McMillan. Guilty of running tempo runs too slow so three key runs sounds great.

Recommend any further reading or where did you hear about it?

Dory Dory is basing her marathon program on a FIRST marathon schedule, and I liked how she was doing long swims and biking in between 3 key sessions. My knee hurts from too much downhill fun over the years, and I need something different to P&D heavy milage programs, so replacing the steady plods seemed like a good idea.

I haven't read the book, but I have it ordered: Runner's World Run Less, Run Faster

dna_leri

donothoponpop wrote: »

Week 2 of a 12 week 10k plan. Next week has 2x1600m 1x800, week after 200 400 600 800 800 600 400 200, week after 4x1000... and so on. I don't know the science behind it, I'm placing my trust in the FIRST program, mainly because its 3 days hard running, and the rest I can do non-impact swim or bike stuff.

I tried the FIRST program last year without fully adopting it. I suspect it can work but I have some misgivings so I will be watching your experiment with interest.

I found the times are a bit too agressive, especially for the LT runs and the intervals, more so than McMillan. e.g. if you are 17min for 5K, then McMillan 's calculator says do your mile reps in no faster than 5:18; FIRST would have you do them in 5:12. In fact McMillan's Best 10K workout has you running them at 10K pace. Also compare the times to Daniel's or advice given by Tergat previously. The more I think about it, I think the FIRST times are just wrong.

The 3 types of run are good but I would use someone else's pacing - McMillan or Daniel's. Just because you are only running 3 days a week does not mean you have to break your bollo run harder every time you do run. All you are really dropping is the easy/recovery runs and you are getting the same benefit from cross-training.

The other difficulty I had was dropping the long run but I suspect that was because I actually enjoyed a longer, easier run once a week - probably the LT run is better but you don't want to be dreading every running session.

Anyway I can see the benefits in it but it was not for me. I will be watching with interest.

donothoponpop

Great post dna_leri. I'd agree that the FIRST times do seem aggressive. It's all about mixing it up though, so I'm curious to see how far or fast low milage will get me. It fits in nicely to my baby Tri program.

Fri pm 22k bike

Lovely evening, I'm blessed to live in this part of the world. Good luck to all doing the WW Trail race tomorrow, I'd say it will be a cracker in the mountains! I'll be thinking of you from a dusty 3 hour lecture on Group Theory:D

Shell to Run

dna_leri wrote: »

The 3 types of run are good but I would use someone else's pacing - McMillan or Daniel's.

Was interested to read this as I followed this programme to the letter of the law last year. The first four weeks were hell and it was an effort every time I went out for a run. Initially this certainly takes the enjoyment out of running but over time the body adjusted and it did get easier. Like you I missed the long slow run enormously. Although the level of effort is significant and much more difficult than what I would be used to it was well worth it as my 5k and 10k times improved. This is an excellent programme for triathletes who cannot allocate as much time to running. I found the programme for speed sessions brilliant, varied and bang on my times. The other sessions I ran with a faster clubmate who paced me and never let me give up.
Would I use the programme again? Yes – I think I would stick with the times advised in the book but am keen to see how Dpop gets on with it if you decide to use McMillan or Daniel's times:D. Dpop

donothoponpop

Gulp! I'll have to follow through now that I'm an experiment!:D For the record, all FIRST pacing speeds are based on a recent 5k race time, which I don't have (don't often race road), my 10k pb from last time I raced it was 40:40 a few years back. I plucked the figure of a 19:30 5k time out of the air, because I reckon that's the sort of shape I'm in now, so all paces are calculated on that. I'd be disappointed if I don't run at least 18:xx 5k and 38:xx 10k by the end of it, and won't be thrilled if that's only as fast as I get.

I'm surprized how much I miss the long run too- although swims/bikes will be better for my knee at the moment. I'm doing this program with a view to also doing some Tri's and Duo's (Valentia Tri and Tinahely Duo entered), but the primary goal is running times and fitness. With that in mind, I'm going to pull back a bit on the swims. Love doing them, I'm up to 5k at a time, my sprint times aren't too bad and could be honed: but I need to strike a balance between swims in a Tri program, and swims in the FIRST program. 5k swims are too much, when they should be the equivalent of an "easy" run.

Sat 2700m swim

Sat through hours of Group Theory in a stuffy auditorium, then drove to the pool for the total opposite, a swimming pool full of kids jumping and splashing in lanes, screaming and laughing as they crossed boundries unseen, and generally not operating as part of a well defined set X where {X:X ∈ (all swimmers who exist outside the swim lanes but inside the pool)}. Perfect way to do a few k easy, the world is meant for the young.

Dory Dory

The marathon First Program I'm doing has one long run a week in it - pretty much 13 miles or longer. I don't know if the purists will gasp at this suggestion, but why don't you consider blending your 10k program with the marathon program - basically swap out the key run #3? Or just extend your program's key run #3 with some nice recovery miles on the end of it. I've added mileage to my program's key runs #1 and #2, so I say make yourself happy! **gasp**.

donothoponpop

Dory Dory wrote: »

The marathon First Program I'm doing has one long run a week in it - pretty much 13 miles or longer. I don't know if the purists will gasp at this suggestion, but why don't you consider blending your 10k program with the marathon program - basically swap out the key run #3? Or just extend your program's key run #3 with some nice recovery miles on the end of it. I've added mileage to my program's key runs #1 and #2, so I say make yourself happy! **gasp**.

Ah, I probably will do. A fourth run that's long, hilly, traily, and enjoyable; would be part of their recommendation, and I'll incorporate it all right. Right at the moment run=knee pain next day, but that's diminishing, so the usual day after non-impact activity will hopefully be subbed with a grassy trail, soon.

Donelson

Two things I've noticed with the ten km version.
1, no predictions for pace when your finished the plan, it makes sense that you should train for where you are not where you'd like to be, but not very motivating to say the least!
2, I use running as a stress management tool, which I hadn't realised before I started, FIRST definitely doesn't do stress relief!
but I do feel that from my limited knowledge that the plan is a good, solid approach to improving times with low mileage.

Best of luck with the training.

donothoponpop

Donelson wrote: »

1, no predictions for pace when your finished the plan, it makes sense that you should train for where you are not where you'd like to be, but not very motivating to say the least!

That's quite true, you plug in the current result, and begin training, rather than training towards a specified outcome... but I've not read the book yet, maybe it goes into more detail? Either way I'm quite anticipatory about the 12 -week outcome.

Donelson wrote: »

2, I use running as a stress management tool, which I hadn't realised before I started, FIRST definitely doesn't do stress relief!

Three days running; guzzle booze the other days for "stress"; what's not to like?;)

donothoponpop

donothoponpop wrote: »

Three days running; guzzle booze the other days for "stress"; what's not to like?;)

Jeez I just realized there's lads out there tapering and booze-free for goal marathons; probably shouldn't go on about the hooch so much....

Any children reading this, those Goal Marathoners (like Krusty) have sacrificed an awful lot to achieve their dreams, so abstaining from alcohol for weeks for those vital marathon seconds, IS SO WORTH IT. I've never gone under 3 hours, but tonight I've had two pints of cool IPO beer, followed by a nice red Syrah, and I feel great, top of the world, A1, stop the lights Bunny. Sure, on the surface that looks cool, (plus I'll probably get laid tonight), but the marathon message is "Boozers are Loozers".:)